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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
William:
DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution.
If that is not an example of reinventing definitions on the fly, I don't know what is. But if you want my view on record, I do not hold "the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution." If that disqualifies me as a Darwinist, fine. In fact, by that definition, I doubt there's a Darwinist on the face of the earth. And if you are alleging that that is what the people you call "Darwinists" believe, then it is an outrageous slur.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution. As such, DARWINISTS should be excluded from the table of civilized discourse and treated with contempt.
Nice to see such a grand display of mutual respect and open-mindedness.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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KF: I repeat: you cannot "extend" the "Darwinist explanation" to "include OOL", because the Darwinian mechanisms require a population of entities that self-replicate with heritable variance in reproductive success. So your challenge is a nonsense. Nobody, at present knows how life began. So nobody can write your essay. If they could, they'd be shooting for the Nobel, not an OP on UD.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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They're just doing exactly what I said they do - attacking and trying to shame us for even thinking about using their tactics, while EL continues to play the happy-face, blissfully ignorant enabler and Gregory plays the role of self-righteous collaborator. DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution. As such, DARWINISTS should be excluded from the table of civilized discourse and treated with contempt.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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This thread alone, nullasalus, as well as your advocacy of it, makes UD stink to high heaven. I’ll be sure to highlight this thread when unknowning people want to know what IDism and its Expelled Syndrome is really about in the beliefs of its followers and victims.
Gregory, if that's supposed to come across as a threat, let me say flatly and openly - I'm quite sure that most people who have an extended interaction with you quickly write you off as bonkers, and don't pay much attention to you. I have little concern with your judgments, and I stand by every word I've said in this thread. Rational discourse requires mutual respect and common ground. Both of these are lacking at TSZ. People who don't accept ID, who are skeptical of ID, who are atheists, etc, are not the problem here. A subset of them are, who are engaged fully in a culture war. I appreciate that TSZ may have given you some very tiny soapbox to stand on, and that at this point you'll take what you can get. My loyalty cannot be bought so cheaply. In fact, it can't be bought at all - my tune would not change, even if by some twist of fate I were banned from UD right this moment. Do what you will.nullasalus
September 17, 2013
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Nullasalus
I think you’ll find that anyone who makes over the top insulting comments regularly gets called out on here regardless of the side they’re on, and that those who do not call such comments out generally don’t try to pretend they’re open-minded individuals who, gosh, just want to get along with people who disagree.
And at TSZ equivalent comment are removed from the thread. Your accusations of hypocrisy are unfounded.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Onlookers, a year ago my pro-darwinism essay challenge was specifically issued in reply to Jerad, who declined to respond.
Actually, what I said was that if GEM was not swayed by all the information and evidence published about the theory of evolution in the last 150+ years then I didn't see the point of me making an attempt. I also pointed out that if I did make the effort and it was shot down it doesn't take away the fact that evolutionary theory is supported by multiple lines of evidence, has great explanatory power, is accepted by almost all biologists and is actually getting 'stronger' all the time. A short essay, no matter how well written, is not sufficient to extoll all the reasons why evolutionary theory IS a theory in the science sense. Meanwhile, ID has no central coherent hypothesis except: some undefined, undetected, unknown designer did it. Again, instead of trying to poke holes in evolutionary theory and trying to inflame a culture war maybe ID proponents should do some work establishing their notions (whatever they are). If you really want to silence your critics then DO SOME WORK.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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You are posting from one thread [and remember I for one have a real life that right now bears heavily on me so that my present involvement is restricted, it is only the sheer pivotal importance of this thread that has drawn me out], and whatever happened there cannot overturn the facts that I have laid on the table.
Discussions on that thread went on for days and you were one of the participants yet you did not request any of the other participants to moderate their language.
You are setting up a strawman and knocking it over in order to continue a willful misrepresentation. You are being utterly unfair to the point of willful misrepresentation.
Are you saying I'm lying?
And remember, if that is all you can put up as a current parallel to the horrific slander fest that has been going on at TSZ [we need not go into the much worse sites that can be named that Null has all too accurately described . . . just remember that part of what you are defending by implication includes attempted outing of and therefore also threats against my uninvolved family], that itself speaks volumes.
I do not participate in discussions at TSZ or AtBC. I am defending nothing. I am merely pointing out that comments can be quite rude. And that there is little to no moderation of such comments. And since you participated in the thread I referenced then you knew of the behaviour I have highlighted.
Wake up man!
I'm not asleep. Nor am I blindly following some ideology. Or being 'utterly unfair to the point of wilful misrepresentation.' Any other motivations you'd care to ascribe to me?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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EL In your attempt to excuse the non-response for the past year, you just provided an example of a strawman:
KF: the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life [Context: the TOL is the only illustration in Origin of Species, as originally published, i.e it is the first icon of evolution] EL:There is no “Darwinist explanation” for OOL
See the key difference? In short the incoherence you pretend is there is one of your own manufacture. You have -- yet again -- set up and knocked over a strawman. And you are also suppressing a key fact. The OOL is the ROOT of the tree of life as the diagram I used from the Smithsonian Institution -- those fundy rednecks, NOT -- showed explicitly. For a year, that has been there just requiring a look. For that matter, ever since I first did High School biology, the textbooks routinely discuss OOL in the context of onward macro-evolution across the tree of life, so the attempt to pretend there is a dividing wall between the two is a patent misrepresentation covering up the first, utterly decisive gap in the explanatory power of the grand evolutionary materialist paradigm from hydrogen to humans by cosmological, chemical, biological macro and then finally socio-cultural evolutions. I defy you to tell me that this overall framework is not the dominant one being pushed in our whole civilisation, with a straight face, dressed up in a lab coat. I am saying and have long said, no roots, no shoot or anything else. That is, design is there from the root of the tree up as a viable and valid explanation of FSCO/I, which is present everywhere in the world of life. And I can freely say that there is simply no good, non question-begging account for the molecular origins of the systems in the cell, backed up by actual OBSERVATIONS. There are all sorts of speculations that a few years ago climaxed in the following mutual refutations by Shapiro and Orgel, speaking for the two main schools of thought:
[[Shapiro:] RNA's building blocks, nucleotides contain a sugar, a phosphate and one of four nitrogen-containing bases as sub-subunits. Thus, each RNA nucleotide contains 9 or 10 carbon atoms, numerous nitrogen and oxygen atoms and the phosphate group, all connected in a precise three-dimensional pattern . . . . [[S]ome writers have presumed that all of life's building could be formed with ease in Miller-type experiments and were present in meteorites and other extraterrestrial bodies. This is not the case. A careful examination of the results of the analysis of several meteorites led the scientists who conducted the work to a different conclusion: inanimate nature has a bias toward the formation of molecules made of fewer rather than greater numbers of carbon atoms, and thus shows no partiality in favor of creating the building blocks of our kind of life . . . . To rescue the RNA-first concept from this otherwise lethal defect, its advocates have created a discipline called prebiotic synthesis. They have attempted to show that RNA and its components can be prepared in their laboratories in a sequence of carefully controlled reactions, normally carried out in water at temperatures observed on Earth . . . . Unfortunately, neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early Earth to produce RNA . . . [[Orgel:] If complex cycles analogous to metabolic cycles could have operated on the primitive Earth, before the appearance of enzymes or other informational polymers, many of the obstacles to the construction of a plausible scenario for the origin of life would disappear . . . . It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility . . . few would believe that any assembly of minerals on the primitive Earth is likely to have promoted these syntheses in significant yield . . . . Why should one believe that an ensemble of minerals that are capable of catalyzing each of the many steps of [[for instance] the reverse citric acid cycle was present anywhere on the primitive Earth [[8], or that the cycle mysteriously organized itself topographically on a metal sulfide surface [[6]? . . . Theories of the origin of life based on metabolic cycles cannot be justified by the inadequacy of competing theories: they must stand on their own . . . . The prebiotic syntheses that have been investigated experimentally almost always lead to the formation of complex mixtures. Proposed polymer replication schemes are unlikely to succeed except with reasonably pure input monomers. No solution of the origin-of-life problem will be possible until the gap between the two kinds of chemistry is closed. Simplification of product mixtures through the self-organization of organic reaction sequences, whether cyclic or not, would help enormously, as would the discovery of very simple replicating polymers. However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help. [[Emphases added.]
Itis also well worth noting how, in an Aug 18, 2009 Scientific American article on "The Origin of Life on Earth," Alonso Ricardo and Jack Szostak -- neither of whom support Intelligent Design -- in speculating on RNA world possibilities (based on the synthesis of component chemicals developed by recent researchers) were forced to begin:
Every living cell, even the simplest bacterium, teems with molecular contraptions that would be the envy of any nanotechnologist. As they incessantly shake or spin or crawl around the cell, these machines cut, paste and copy genetic molecules, shuttle nutrients around or turn them into energy, build and repair cellular membranes, relay mechanical, chemical or electrical messages—the list goes on and on, and new discoveries add to it all the time. It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell’s machines, which are mostly protein-based catalysts called enzymes, could have formed spontaneously as life first arose from nonliving matter around 3.7 billion years ago. To be sure, under the right conditions some building blocks of proteins, the amino acids, form easily from simpler chemicals, as Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey of the University of Chicago discovered in pioneering experiments in the 1950s. But going from there to proteins and enzymes is a different matter . . .
It is utterly revealing that, a full year after the challenge has been issued and stands unanswered, your first and presumably strongest attempt to dismiss it is to set up a strawman distortion that also dodges commonplace known context. Utterly revealing. Especially of the key point that is the reason why it is unanswered. Namely, despite a common pretence otherwise, there is no cogent, observationally anchored account that explains on blind chance and mechanical necessity in a warm little pond or similar, how the systems of cell based life came to be without design. Especially in light of the revelations of the past 60 years that highlight codes, coded algorithmic info in strings and algorithm implementing machinery, just using protein manufacture as a key example. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Onlookers: Notice, more personalities, improper appeals to modesty in the face of allegedly august authority and the like from Gregory instead of anything substantial. Let's see if he can actually show cause as to his dismissive claims. I doubt it, as can be seen from his first problem, to wit:
in trying to dismiss the empirically evident reality of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (what the FSCO/I he would dismiss means) he has inadvertently and inescapably provided two examples of in posting his attempted retort -- a coded text string, and using algorithm implementing computers to implement it. In addition, he has exemplified the only known, routinely observed cause of such FSCO/I . . . design. He has even managed to show forth the only empirically known cause of designs, intelligent agents.
As in, reductio ad absurdum. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Of course there hasn't been an attempt to address your challenge, KF. That's because your challenge is incoherent. You refer to:
the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life.
There is no "Darwinist explanation" for OOL. There cannot be. There may be explanations from chemistry and physics, and there may be Darwinian processes that take self-replicators from chemistry and physics to what we now know as life, but we don't have them yet, although we have leads. If you really want to know about these hypotheses, then the output from the Szostak lab is a good place to start. But nobody is going to write the essay you ask for because a) it makes no sense and b) there isn't even, as yet, a complete account of any sort for OOL.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Onlookers, a year ago my pro-darwinism essay challenge was specifically issued in reply to Jerad, who declined to respond. Also, in the year sine there has been no cogent, serious attempt -- and note my responses to Wikipedia and the linked claimed 29 evidences in lieu of the empty chair. Bear that in mind. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Jerad, 153:
the lack of a coherent ID hypothesis
As in, Jerad, which part of this -- from my comment clipping a AC comment in reply to one of the key smears being trotted out at TSZ, is incoherent ( which normally means self-contradictory) -- and for that matter, which part of it is not more than abundantly backed up by facts: ___________ KF, 40 supra: >>Also, remember, that in another week or so, it will be a full year with no serious takers for a challenge to freely host here at UD an essay laying out the observationally anchored case for the darwinist tree of life from the roots up. That is, there has been ample opportunity to address the matter on the merits as a scientific debate. Rejected and derided, but instead we see the foulness summarised and answered above. In terms of the essence of the design theory view, it is that the deep past of origins cannot be directly observed so we must study its traces, and infer explanatory models on causal factors shown to produce consequences directly comparable to the traces. Thus such features, where characteristic of a cause, are an empirically reliable sign. And while inductive reasoning on signs is always provisional, it can be highly reliable. Mechanical necessity such as F = ma, gives rise to low contingency natural regularities that are often reduced to laws. Chance processes yield high contingency outcomes that may follow relevant statistical distribution models such as the normal curve. Design will often be highly contingent also, but will frequently yield patterns such as functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (such as the text string in this post) that are maximally implausible on chance but are on billions of cases observed a reliable sign of design. No great mystery, and directly empirically testable, just show blind chance and mechanical necessity producing FSCO/I. Only, that has not happened, many attempts notwithstanding. So, we have good reason to rule out mechanical necessity if we see high contingency of outcomes under similar starting conditions, and chance if we see something utterly implausible by chance. This being done on a per aspect basis for an object, process, phenomenon, etc. Nothing intrinsically strange or hard to follow, or in breach of canons of inductive, scientific reasoning. And certainly no reference to the Nicene Creed or the Chicago declaration on inerrancy etc. No, quote Bible and try to guide science based on interpretation thereof. That is, not inherently religious. The problem is, Darwinists nailed their flag to the mast 150 years ago, but over the past 60 years it has become plain that the world of life is chock full of signs of design, from DNA on up. And the further problem over the same 60 years, is that the observed cosmos turns out to give every indication of being fine tuned in many ways that facilitate C chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life. Those who saw Darwinism as an excellent way to dress up atheism and materialism in a lab coat and seize the prestige of science to advance their ideology, have run into big trouble. And they are throwing a royal, foully uncivil temper tantrum, as the TSZ thread shows. >> _________________ Jerad, put up, or shut up. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Just bow your head and be silent, KF/GEM. Your FSCO/I is not nearly as credible as you imagine. You're only possibly fooling other IDists who desperately want a 'strictly [natural] scientific' proof of IDism. And you have stated here that you are not (out of Expelled Syndrome victimhood) willing to test FSCO/I openly and honestly with your peers. I think you'd get shut down too hard for you to imagine. Charity? That's just not good enough for Carribean Comfort GEM. Instead, anger, rage, and Alinskyism is what he wants. Lord help us from such a travesty as IDism has caused. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwK73QbNPKoGregory
September 17, 2013
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"Shame on you" coming from KF sounds like "Can you spare me a quarter?"Gregory
September 17, 2013
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Ah, yes, the way IDists choose atheists as their preferred dancing partners. You folks deserve each other. Dembski and Dawkins play together revealingly. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AM DEFENDING ATHEISTS OR THEIR RELATED ANGERS. Moderates and thoughtful scholars don't want to be associated with IDism either. Abrahamic believers who have seen through IDism's scientistic facade are not bothered by it anymore unless it gets LOUD AND PROUD (which sometimes happens), but can just watch the ungodly carnage between IDists and their atheist dancing partners either amused or saddened. nullasalus tries to take the higher path, but is unfortunately brought down by his unconventional IDism defense and choice of dancing partner. This thread alone, nullasalus, as well as your advocacy of it, makes UD stink to high heaven. I'll be sure to highlight this thread when unknowning people want to know what IDism and its Expelled Syndrome is really about in the beliefs of its followers and victims. DI leaders and Moderators at UD should be ashamed and this thread should be erased. But please do keep it open as amazing evidence.Gregory
September 17, 2013
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Jerad: You are posting from one thread [and remember I for one have a real life that right now bears heavily on me so that my present involvement is restricted, it is only the sheer pivotal importance of this thread that has drawn me out], and whatever happened there cannot overturn the facts that I have laid on the table. You are setting up a strawman and knocking it over in order to continue a willful misrepresentation. You are being utterly unfair to the point of willful misrepresentation. And remember, if that is all you can put up as a current parallel to the horrific slander fest that has been going on at TSZ [we need not go into the much worse sites that can be named that Null has all too accurately described . . . just remember that part of what you are defending by implication includes attempted outing of and therefore also threats against my uninvolved family], that itself speaks volumes. Wake up man! KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Gregory: I see you trying to be personal:
the factor that FSCO/I will quite obviously *NEVER* be accepted broadly in society or by the scientific community should be understood point blank, with such completely unrealistic, distraught advocacy coming from the Carribean, should finally be taken into account head-on.
This is after, days ago, it was shown that functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information were discussed in the literature in the decades before the surge of the design theory movement from the 90's on. As in Wicken, Orgel and co. From that point on, complex specified information, explicit or implicit in organised multi-part entities has been an obvious, objective reality. As blatant as the ASCII code in the text of your post as just clipped. And as real as the PC that processed that coded text. That reality has nothing to do with my hailing from the Caribbean, or anything to do with my personality. Though, as one who has studied and been qualified in relevant disciplines, I have a full right to speak in my own voice in stating blatant facts. Including, the fact that we live in a world with billions of cases of what I have descriptively abbreviated as FSCO/I, frequently explaining the abbreviation. So, if you cannot face such facts but must try to resort to personalities and the imagined judgement of the materialist magisterium duly dressed up in the holy lab coat, it speaks volumes on the lack of substance in your case. Including, regarding the further fact that FSCO/I has just one known, characteristic causal source, design. That is, it is a reasonable and scientific inductive inference to conclude that until and unless it can be shown otherwise -- a proviso that obtains for all science -- something with that sort of support shows us that the best explanation for FSCO/I is design. The problem is not the induction, it is the ideology it challenges, as life from the cell up is chock full of FSCO/I. Very well, if you are inclined to reject this in the name of science, bring forth examples in our observation where blind watchmaker type chance and necessity have produced: code systems of symbols and rules, coded data strings expressing algorithmic process steps, start, next, next, next, . . . stop -- such as we see in the ribosome. The answer is obvious: you cannot, and those you enable cannot. But, there is an ideological agenda that must proceed regardless, so instead of facing the issue you attack the man. Shame on you. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Your continued enabling behaviour for the utterly dishonourable is utterly revealing.
As is his axe-grinding. He couldn't more clearly be saying 'I am angry at the DI for not giving my largely unimpressive work more prominence' if he had it emblazoned on a t-shirt - and then put that t-shirt on a jumbotron. I would love to paste some good ol' posts from the TSZ regulars and friends, courtesy of After the Bar Closes - but there's no way to do so without violating several of this site's standards regarding language, to say nothing of courtesy. And before anyone whines that I'm being quite disrespectful of the TSZ's atheist crew, let me say - I'm well aware. They, unlike other selective skeptics and atheists, deserve it. I'll say it again: dialogue and debate requires, absolutely requires, sincere mutual respect and common ground. Various atheists, ID skeptics, and more have this. Some do not. TSZ tends to be a vortex of those who do not, and they've got a track record of hate going back roundabout a decade. Contra Gregory, I'll put the track record of UD - and it has downs as well as ups - against theirs any day of the week, in terms of not only content of thought (even when I disagree with it), but civility. I simply don't believe in feigning congeniality with people who do not deserve it.nullasalus
September 17, 2013
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Jerad: You are lying — whether by directly saying what you know is false or by saying what you SHOULD know is false but don’t have enough regard for truth in haste to score debate points makes little difference.
From this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/convergent-evolution/a-software-engineer-on-convergent-evolution/ Axel, comment 56: If you think such complex machinery could have arisen from random chance, Jerad, you must be brain dead. Axel, comment 58: And I expect people thought I was exaggerating when I opined that you are brain-dead. Mapou, comment 67: Just because you are too grey-matter challenged or too much of a poltron to see it does not mean it’s not true. Joe, comment 110: Now you are proving that you are a liar. I grasp the mathematics of infinity. It’s just that infinity does NOT exist outside of our minds! We made it up. Joe, comment 111: Perhaps to your bitty mind, yet it is very telling that you cannot even produce a testable hypothesis for it. Joe, comment 112: Ya see Jerad, reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input the only possible way to make any scientific determination as to the who, how, when, where and how is by studying the design and all relevant evidence- just ask your alleged archaeologist of a wife. (Insulting someone he's never even conversed with.) Joe, comment 114: Here Jerad, choke on this: Joe, comment 119: Or you are just a bluffing loser. Joe, comment 122: You are a bluffer and a liar. AND Jerad you are an ass- I have looked. You are also lying, as usual. AND It’s as if you are proud of your stupidity. AND You are a liar. AND And if you stopped lying and started presenting some actual evidence, my tone would change. However when all you do is lie and deflect then I will respond accordingly. Joe, comment 125: s that the extent of your childishness? Joe, comment 172: Cuz a scientifically illiterate Jerad sez so? AND you are just a bluffing liar and a gullible sad-sack. AND Jerad is either really ignorant or very dishonest. Joe, comment 174: Then you do not belong in this discussion. Joe, comment 201: I have looked, Jerad. Your position has nothing but mental midgets supporting it. AND Then please present that evidence or admit that you are lying. Joe, comment 214: Alan Fox wallows in his willful ignorance: AND IOW Alan loves his ignorasnce so much he refuses to listen to reason. Mung, comment 217: And thanks to Alan as well! For exposing, once again, for all to see, your complete ignorance of the argument put forth by Upright BiPed. Mung, comment 218: Alan, didn’t you previously admit that you were incapable of comprehending the argument that Upright BiPed makes and thus are unable to provide any relevant commentary on it? Since that still seems to be the case, why not just remain silent?
In short, you just joined the ranks of the enabling good cops acting in cahoots with the bad cops. You just utterly destroyed your own credibility. Shame on you! KF
And the accusations continue . . .Jerad
September 17, 2013
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EL: FYI, not only has JG been repeatedly corrected in thread but -- sine you force this to be said -- has received notice. He has been trying to stay on the wagon, and has been routinely corrected when he slips off. And this is not the first time that that has been noted so you should have known better. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Gregory: You are -- as usual -- misrepresenting what has happened in this thread. From the beginning [cf. comment no 1 and many remarks since, leading to a dialogue with WJM), WJM has been corrected on the side where he has gone too far, and the issue has been focussed on what is a reasonable way forward. FYI, the way forward is Fighter Command at Battle of Britain. Firm but fair resistance, creating a force in being. Notice, the RAF pilots were not shooting German pilots in parachutes. And onwards, the Allies fought an in the main honourable war -- inevitable exceptions notwithstanding. (Notice for instance the nearly 100 Americans executed by Courts Martial for crimes.) Then, after the war, war crimes were put on trial, setting a precedent. You knew that, or should have known that. Do you think it is by accident that I singled out that as the exemplar from history? Think again. Your continued enabling behaviour for the utterly dishonourable is utterly revealing. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Jerad: You are lying -- whether by directly saying what you know is false or by saying what you SHOULD know is false but don't have enough regard for truth in haste to score debate points makes little difference. I know for a fact, that commenters who go over the top are routinely corrected in-thread (not least, because I have routinely done it, up to yesterday when I saw a comment that needed it.) Now, too, it is interesting that instead of dealing with the merits, or getting the wedge document pretzels straightened out, or facing facts on conduct unbecoming at TSZ, you are trying the oldest trick in the nazi propaganda book: turnabout accusation. In short, you just joined the ranks of the enabling good cops acting in cahoots with the bad cops. You just utterly destroyed your own credibility. Shame on you! KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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This thread is amazing, just amazing! Both amazing and sad at the same time. Initially, I thought that News/Moderators would erase it as soon as possible and scold WJM for the anger of posting it. But then most of the first IDist commentors actually lauded WJM's anti-charity speech. (!) I was already in awe, especially after having visited the DI several times where there are decent and kind people, nothing like the anger and venom being demonstrated here. Casey Luskin, for example, as terribly wrong about IDism as a 'strictly [natural] scientific' theory as he is, couldn't hurt a flea. Gentle and naive to a fault. Would the IDM let a few IDists full of anger and hatred (and Alinskyism) spoil its 'revolutionary' theory by guilty association? It surprisingly seems UD is willing to allow it. Expelled Syndrome is quite obviously becoming a nasty affliction that societies should warn their children against. The language of a few IDists here makes most TSZ regulars (aside from a few fellow extremists there) look like generous, meditative and caring souls, simply trying to find their way in our troubled world while radical fanatics set traps for them in the name of IDT with the intent to ideologically hurt and harm. I see little commendable towards 'opponents' (I don't choose the term 'enemy' as the samurai-IDists do) either by the Christian-IDists or by the eclectic post-modern 'religious' folks like WJM, KF and Joe at UD. It's a very strange situation. And I'd like (and expect) to see a higher stand from IDists than what this thread displays. This site has some significant spillage of emotion to deal with...and yes, the factor that FSCO/I will quite obviously *NEVER* be accepted broadly in society or by the scientific community should be understood point blank, with such completely unrealistic, distraught advocacy coming from the Carribean, should finally be taken into account head-on. But if the IDM's confrontation (or more accurately, lack thereof) with YECism is an indication, this unexcuseably absurd display will be allowed to continue even longer. Perhaps if Denyse sent this thread-link to Meyer, Dembski, Behe, Wells, Nelson, Axe, Gauger, et al. and asked if this is what they would like to encourage by their IDist followers you'd get a much different reaction from them than "YEAH, DO IT - TOTAL WAR!" :( Amazing.Gregory
September 17, 2013
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EL: A long time ago (early in your career as UD critic), I actually put up a post here at UD praising you as the sort of critic that is what is needed. How far, how sadly far, have you fallen oh Lucifer, son of the morning. I am sorry madam, YOU are the owner of TSZ and are currently hosting a scurrilous hate, bigotry- tantamount- to- lurid- racism and slander fest that from the OP on is spreading poisonous lies rooted in dishonest, wedge document pretzel twisting propaganda. FYI, design theory is self-evidently not a right wing, Christo-fascist, neo-nazi theocratic attempt to subvert science and civilisation into a new religious tyranny under a new magisterium and inquisition, and it is equally obviously not scientific fraud -- and I just described the essence of the thread you are hosting. (If you had bothered to pay attention to even just the weak argument correctives in the resources tab for this and every UD page, you would have known better. And, as a responsible, educated person you full well SHOULD know better. Frankly, you are personally liable, as the host of defamation.) If you doubt what I mean, I challenge you to show me guilty of FRAUD and conspiracy to commit FRAUD. That -- which you are hosting -- is not merely an over the top remark, it is a mortal insult, and frankly tortious. Imagine yourself sitting across from me in my living room, looking me in the eye in front of my wife and family, and telling me the things in the OP and comments, then telling me they are justified. (On what possible grounds could you begin to imagine that such could be in the remotest degree acceptable comment??????) I would be fully in my rights to demand that you leave my house immediately and never ever return, even after apology. (It is by the grace that tells me, turn the other cheek in response to insult, that I am trying to get you to see what you are doing, in hopes that you will wake up. Before it is too late.) FYFI, if you actually think that such a farrago of false, uncivil, bigoted, hateful and insulting accusations is an acceptable pattern of claims or want to excuse such under the notion that free expression does not include duties of care to accuracy, truth, fairness and respect then you are here removing all doubt that you are a good cop enabler of the bad cops. Madam, the conduct now going on at TSZ is dishonourable. Snap the sword, tear off the rank and medals, drum you out of the camp dishonourable. Conduct unbecoming and dishonourable. It is a declaration of war by dishonourable attack. Understand that. And, its consequences. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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I think you’ll find that anyone who makes over the top insulting comments regularly gets called out on here regardless of the side they’re on,
That is simply and sadly not true.
and that those who do not call such comments out generally don’t try to pretend they’re open-minded individuals who, gosh, just want to get along with people who disagree.
On another thread I was called brain-dead and liar and a moron. And I was told by a commenter that I shouldn't complain about technical descriptions. And no one called any of the UD regulars on their language or manners.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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And the above isn’t “stirring up enmity”?
There you go again. I said you made an inane claim about 'stirring up enmity where none exists', and pointed at the general scummery that takes place on AtBC. Suddenly, your focus is on 'stirring up enmity', period. Yes, Elizabeth, I am pointing out your hypocrisy, and your clique's actions - that stirs up enmnity. But it damn well existed way, way before WJM made any post about the matter. In fact, I think it predates his appearance on this site.
Tell me where I have every “cheered on” anyone “slinging homophobic slurs or “defacing public pictures”.
Check the After the Bar Closes threads, and we'll see you posting cheerfully alongside people doing exactly what I said, laughing and/or turning a blind eye to everything from the foulest name calling to picture alteration to more.
So anyone who posts here, and who does not explicitly condemn, say, some of JoeG’s outrageous comments here and elsewhere, is “two-faced”? I don’t think so.
I think you'll find that anyone who makes over the top insulting comments regularly gets called out on here regardless of the side they're on, and that those who do not call such comments out generally don't try to pretend they're open-minded individuals who, gosh, just want to get along with people who disagree. Yes, I think so.
In science we do not “reinvent definitions on the fly”.
First off - yes, it does happen. Scientists are no more immune to deceptive wording and misrepresentation than anyone else. You may as well be telling me that scientists never BS when talking about their findings when applying for grants. They may not all be guilty of it - maybe not even most - but it does happen. Second, who brought up science? See, Elizabeth, if in the course of an argument a person keeps changing their definitions their argument relies on after the claim they were arguing for failed as a result of it, that's not a case of 'being real super precise and scientific!' It's just good ol' fashioned BSing. Goalpost moving. Misdirection. Intellectual dishonesty. I never said you were a 'stickler for definitions'. I said that you changed definitions as you needed in the course of an argument whenever things start going south for you. Feel free to try and make it sound like I accused you of, darnit, just being too *precise*, when that clearly wasn't the case - it just serves to illustrate your intellectual shortcomings. Once again: skeptics of ID, people who have arguments and questions or differences of opinion, are not the problem here. It's a different crowd, with a different motivation - the difference between a person who simply doesn't believe in God, and a 'I want to destroy Christianity' Richard Dawkins sort. TSZ is overly populated by wannabes of the second variety.nullasalus
September 17, 2013
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William wrote:
I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same. Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure. It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war. While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.
William, in the view of many posters at tSZ, did not offer "polite reasoning" but extremely obscure posts, not always polite, that were met with repeated requests for clarification. His case that there were "rules of engagement" that "undermined" his capacity to defend himself, is absurd. He certainly did not succeed in persuading many - any? - of his case. That is not because of unfair "rules of engagement" but because, well, he did not, in the view of those engaging with him, make a good case. That's what I mean by "stirring up enmity where none exists". Disagreement, frustration, and miscommunication there may be all round, but trying to make that into a "war" is what I am objecting to. If we want to counter barbarism, we need to try get break down barriers, not erect more.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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They portray those of us who disagree with them as ‘enemies’ who want to destroy their ‘culture’. This is plainly absurd.
This attempted camouflage whereby hostility towards the swamp-extension that is TSZ becomes hostility towards 'anyone who disagrees with ID' is a bad joke. The focus is not merely on people who don't agree with ID's conclusions, or methods, or who don't think ID is science. It's with a particular group of people for whom the hostility towards ID is a bit more personal than that. You may as well be trying to cast, say... Richard Dawkins as just some mild-mannered fellow who, beg your pardon, just isn't sure he believes in the claims of Christianity, rather than someone who says he wants to destroy Christianity and who is locked in a war against 'religion' and 'theism' generally.
This is plainly absurd. I’m thinking of the typical argument: atheists don’t believe in absolute morals so what’s to stop them from rampaging, raping and pillaging?
An absurd rendition of the argument, especially when mechanisms to stop rampaging, raping and pillaging are acknowledged even by those criticizing the intellectual results of rejecting objective morality. That's really the key: it's not 'without objective morals, chaos rules supreme!' that's being claimed, but 'without objective morals, rotten societies - such as the atheistic North Korea - can be easily justified, and may even thrive, such as they are'. ID proponents do plenty of work. They outline their arguments, they perform research, they review others' research - all demonstrable. Why, they even convince some people that their arguments have merit. And I say this as someone who is on record as being pretty skeptical of some fundamental aspects of the ID project. But you know all this - what's going on with your reply is pretty well exactly what WJM pointed out. It's about dishonesty and deception - playing to the crowd, and trying to slur your opponents so their arguments and reasoning are rejected out of hand. Please, keep it up. I'm sure others will love seeing examples of what WJM was talking about presented in the same exact thread.nullasalus
September 17, 2013
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‘Stir up enmity where none exists’? The ‘enmity’ has been there since likely before the founding of After The Bar Closes – you know, the little hate site where you and the regulars wallow in your own filth as you slime others cheerfully?
And the above isn't "stirring up enmity"?
You seem to think, Elizabeth, that so long as you’re all smiles and sunshine (God, tell us the one again about how you ‘believe in God – just with two O’s, teehee!’) on more obviously public forums, that you’re a nice, fair, well-meaning individual – and your cooperation with, cheering on, and general tolerance of people doing everything from slinging homophobic slurs to defacing public pictures to more, of the very people you’re trying to have a discussion with is somehow excused.
Tell me where I have every "cheered on" anyone "slinging homophobic slurs or "defacing public pictures".
It doesn’t. It makes you two-faced.
So anyone who posts here, and who does not explicitly condemn, say, some of JoeG's outrageous comments here and elsewhere, is "two-faced"? I don't think so.
And your tendency to reinvent definitions on the fly whenever you find your back to the wall in an argument – which is damn often – coupled with your habitual dishonest representation of yourself and your opponents’ arguments, doesn’t exactly do much to smack down the charges of intellectual dishonesty.
In science we do not "reinvent definitions on the fly". We make them explicit for the purposes of the argument. Your perception, I suggest, is erroneous. What you see as "reinventing definitions on the fly" is the reverse - it is an attempt to pin down arguments to specific definitions in order to avoid equivocation. For example "evolution" means different things in different contexts. In order to understand a claim about "evolution" it is important to understand the definition being used in the claim, and not to extrapolate the claim to other claims using a different definition. It is precisely to avoid equivocation that I am a stickler for definitions.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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