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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
IMO, one of the downsides of tolerating incessant trolling is that it seems to have drowned out much of the thoughtful conversation that takes place here. This has especially been the case since Elizabeth was allowed back on UD. At least a few of the more interesting commenters haven't been on the boards as much for a while.Optimus
September 15, 2013
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Null @ 53
Calm, reasoned discussion, charity, and good faith absolutely requires mutual respect and common ground. I want to be clear: this does not mean ‘feigned politeness’. It means sincere feelings of mutual respect.
I completely agree. It seems like the vast majority of ID critics on these boards enter into discussions without even a modicum of respect for those with whom they disagree. Perhaps the lack of civility that such persons exhibit is symptomatic of the culture of skepticism, which seems to gorge itself on irreverence, ridicule, self-congratulatory rhetoric, and contempt for humility.
In fact, some of the superficially ‘nicest’ TSZ members were – all nice and smiles and obnoxious smiley face asciis – were members there, giddily taking part in those insults, never urging anyone that they were going too far and making things too personal, etc.
They are obnoxious, aren't they? No number of smiley faces can offset willful blindness, obfuscation, condescension, and intransigence.Optimus
September 15, 2013
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WJM: In a shooting war, battles are won with weapons that kill and maim. So if you have only a knife but your opponent has a gun, you are at a distinct disadvantage, granted. However, in a war of ideas, truth is the most powerful weapon there is. It often takes time to manifest its power, however. What exactly do you hope to gain by rudeness, invective, slander, and ad hominem? How do you imagine that that kind of "weapon" will gain any traction in a war of ideas? Whom are you going to convince with such tactics?Bruce David
September 15, 2013
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PaV @ 51
How many here remember the “MathGrrl” affair. It very quickly became obvious to me that this was very likely someone not interested ‘one iota’ in learning anything about ID, but only interested in driving home the idea that there was no such thing as a proper definition of CSI.
I remember that. It was an abject farce, a complete waste of time. The proposed scenarios for which IDers were challenged to compute the CSI were almost incoherent. The same can be said of Elizabeth's 'challenge' to compute CSI for some random grey-scale photo.
It would have saved lots of time and energy if she=he was banned from the get-go. But, no, I guess we had to be “nice.” So not only was this rogue interloper not banned, but was given license to put up post! “Be as gentle as doves, but as cunning as a fox.” It’s always wise to know who you are dealing with.
I agree completely. I realize that many of the TSZ folks are just chomping at the bit to charge UD with squashing dissenting views, but there's little value in a blog site that's overrun with trolls. Sometimes one has to prune a tree in order for it to flourish.Optimus
September 15, 2013
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EDTA: Exactamundo.William J Murray
September 15, 2013
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TSZ is nothing but a pitiful collection of anti-theistic, hate-filled swine run by a clever, polite enabler of civilization-destroying marxist, materialist darwinism.
Oh, don't mince words now -- tell us how you really feel about us!Kantian Naturalist
September 15, 2013
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tjguy: I call myself a rational theist. No, I don't believe in forgiveness of sin, but then how I see "what sin is" is probably different from what Christians think. IMO, it's not something that can be "forgiven" - even by god. I believe that no one escapes the consequences of their intent; not of their actions, but of their intent. Applying the methodology of one's opponent is not the same as adopting their intent. I'm not worried about the war because, at the end of the day, the afterlife is more my true home than this world. But while I'm here, I play to win, not to score style points or make it look to others as if I'm a good guy. I don't care if onlookers think I'm a bad guy as long as what I do services the good. However, I believe each of us has certain abilities and talents and limitations; we all can only do what we can do, as we can do it. If others are compelled to play nice by their perspective, that's fine by me, but I'm still going to be making a case, for those that are willing, to take it to the streets - so to speak.William J Murray
September 15, 2013
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Well said, Mr. Murray! I am very glad to see another who realizes that ends-justify-the-means tactics require a like response, due to the information-poor, emotion-driven people in the audience. Always stress that when good wins, charitableness returns. If the other side wins, incivility continues without end. This is the clear distinction between the sides.EDTA
September 15, 2013
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WJM:
I’m not a Christian, Neil.
Well, that certainly explains a lot. No wonder you think it is right to return evil for evil. If you are not a Christian, then what are you? A Deist? Why aren't you a Christian - you certainly believe in God it seems. But you don't believe in Jesus? You don't believe in the cross or forgiveness of sins? Obviously then you don't believe in the Bible. So what do you believe about God - gods - religions etc? Just curious. Christians believe that the enemy is not flesh and blood. Ultimately it is a spiritual battle against the Enemy who blinds the eyes of unbelievers. It takes God's Spirit to open their eyes. Reasoning with them can be used by God, but if we stoop to their level, then we lose the upper hand that we have. The objective on looker will see the difference. How many people want to be like them - really? talk, act, and speak like them? Righteous anger is permitted even as Jesus demonstrated, but it is hard to keep anger truly righteous. I think we will lose respect if we stoop to their level. Are you advocating all of their methods or just certain ones? Don't worry. One day, they will have to answer for their actions, beliefs, attitudes, words, and even thoughts. They will not win the war even if they win some battles here.tjguy
September 15, 2013
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It would have saved lots of time and energy if she=he was banned from the get-go. But, no, I guess we had to be “nice.” So not only was this rogue interloper not banned, but was given license to put up post! “Be as gentle as doves, but as cunning as a fox.” It’s always wise to know who you are dealing with.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
We owe them no seat at the table of UD, nor IMO should we allow that ilk here. TSZ is nothing but a pitiful collection of anti-theistic, hate-filled swine run by a clever, polite enabler of civilization-destroying marxist, materialist darwinism. Even if a few are only useful idiots parroting nihilistic propaganda, we shouldn't tolerate the persistent nonsense Neil, Alan and others keep spreading here.William J Murray
September 15, 2013
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I am in full agreement with William J Murray on this one. The only thing I'd add in - not that he needs to hear it - is that we should always strive to properly identify 'people who simply disagree with us, but who argue in good faith, on common ground, and with respect' and 'people who just want to win, and actively hate their opponents'. Speaking specifically about TSZ - it is heavily populated by people who were regulars at a forum that was called 'the swamp' by detractors. We're talking about a place where people would go and seethe with hatred at various ID proponents, including mocking them with homophobic slurs, altering their RL photos to mock them with, etc. In fact, some of the superficially 'nicest' TSZ members were - all nice and smiles and obnoxious smiley face asciis - were members there, giddily taking part in those insults, never urging anyone that they were going too far and making things too personal, etc. Calm, reasoned discussion, charity, and good faith absolutely requires mutual respect and common ground. I want to be clear: this does not mean 'feigned politeness'. It means sincere feelings of mutual respect. When it's lacking - when you're just 'the enemy', to be defeated at all costs - then trying to be respectful and forgiving and charitable is a lost cause, and will do damage to yourself and others. There are plenty of people who don't accept ID, who are not theists, and yet nevertheless are people with whom a conversation can be had. People we can 'talk with'. But there's also, especially online, an abundance of people who don't fit this mold. There's no 'talking with' them. Merely talking at. And a good share of the TSZ crowd needs exactly that.nullasalus
September 15, 2013
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... and Coyne, 'genuflecting spastically.'(!!!!) That Berlinski's priceless. Savage and pitiless, but priceless, as long as they Mother Nature's munchkins, not you, are in his sights. And to think poor young Matzke got his PhD today!Axel
September 15, 2013
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Wm J Murray: I respect your attitude, but for the most part those whom we are in battle with are beyond reason and civil discourse, and only employ such inasmuch as it will further their agenda, using any means necessary to get their way. For a very long time, I tried to be as patient and charitable as possible with our Darwinist friends. However, it moves the discourse nowhere as it turns out. The Bible tells us that a "word to the wise is sufficient." When dealing with "true-believers", ten million words is not sufficient. I have a rule, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick!" When people are blinded, words simply can't penetrate their grey matter. That's when the 'stick' has to come out. When dealing with a donkey, many times you have to hit the poor beast over the head with a 2" x 4" to first get their attention. Then you might be able to get it to do the right thing. Sadly, even this doesn't work with our "true-believer" friends. So, Wm, I applaud your new style of confrontation; though, again, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick!" When people are reasonable and open, civil discourse is not only advisable, but indispensable. However, when arguments have been gone over time and time again, and the opponent uses invective as a way of undermining your position without recourse to facts and reason, then the "knives" should be put away, and the 2" x 4" employed. In my opinion, it is not "charity" to be "nice", when "nice" means leaving other people in their ignorance. Somehow, people forget that Jesus, himself, fashioned a whip and drove out the money-changers. Sometimes speaking 'softly' won't get the job done. How many here remember the "MathGrrl" affair. It very quickly became obvious to me that this was very likely someone not interested 'one iota' in learning anything about ID, but only interested in driving home the idea that there was no such thing as a proper definition of CSI. When I told her---you do remember that it turned out MathGrrl was a guy, who played this blog for a fool?---to "just go away," there were many who told me how bad this was for the UD website and for ID. But I knew it was time to bring out the 'big stick.' It would have saved lots of time and energy if she=he was banned from the get-go. But, no, I guess we had to be "nice." So not only was this rogue interloper not banned, but was given license to put up post! "Be as gentle as doves, but as cunning as a fox." It's always wise to know who you are dealing with. Congratulations Wm. on arriving at the right decision.PaV
September 15, 2013
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From the OP:
used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction. I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.
I try to do this as well. There's no point in resorting to ad hominem argumentation, because it proves nothing.
Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.
Polite reasoning, or any other reasoning for that matter, does not work with people whose minds are firmly closed. And that is obviously true of the numerous Darwinian trolls we've had here recently (JLAfan2001, AVS, Proton). As a Christian, I look at it this way: others like me are also living in an anti-Christian world and are suffering like persecutions. The most common and widespread form of suffering Christians are called upon to endure today is the attitude adopted by so many persons: people otherwise polite become intolerant and insulting. Rebuff after rebuff is experienced, besides what Jesus himself suffered, namely, the “contrary talk by sinners against their own interests.” (Heb. 12:3) It's designed to wear down patience and courage. I think of 1 Peter 3:15 where Christians are exhorted to be ready to "make a defense" before anyone demanding an explanation of one's faith.Barb
September 15, 2013
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Your #22, Philip: What a so and so that Berlinski, Philip! How about this for a stiletto between Matske's ribs...! '... and had Matzke devoted more thought to his critique, he might have spared us the embarrassment of improving his arguments before rejecting his conclusions.Axel
September 15, 2013
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KN, re. #47:
Fair point, though these published authors need an audience to buy their books, download their lectures, attend their debates, and in general, make the whole gig a money-maker for the publishers and distributors and creators of media content. If there weren’t money to made in it, or no way for the money spent to effect policy, there wouldn’t be an intelligent design movement — just a few people talking to one another. And I take it that Uncommon Descent is just one of many sites where that audience can constitute itself as an audience, where the newest books on design theory or criticisms of ‘Darwinism’ can find the appropriate audience, and so on.
Stephen Meyer's most recent book made several best seller lists. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of who actually bought it. Also, lectures and debates by leading ID authors are, I believe, generally well attended. Again, I wonder what the breakdown is between those in the "choir", those who come to dispute, and those who come with an open mind seeking understanding. I really don't know. . .Bruce David
September 15, 2013
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Bruce David,
However, there is one conflation which I think is justified on the whole, and that is that an atheist/materialist metaphysical position and Darwinism go hand in hand more often than not. And I believe that it is true that in the vast majority of cases, Darwinism is defended so fervently because without it, the materialist metaphysic is much, much harder to sustain. One can see this at work in the writings of many Darwin defenders, from Dawkins to Coyne to P. Z. Myers
I see the point, and I have various conflicting (or semi-conflicting) views about it. I have a strong dislike for "the materialist Darwinists," because (among many other things) I think they muddy the waters every bit as much design proponents do. Dawkins famously claimed that "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist," and that is surely false. (Was Spinoza not intellectually fulfilled, or not an atheist?) Dawkins would have been on firmer ground if he had said that Darwinism offers a response that the Epicurean can use to deal with the Stoic objection to Epicureanism -- but to put the point that way would require a greater knowledge of the history of metaphysics than possessed by the average reader. More generally, however, I think that the materialist interpretation of Darwinism does a number of disservices -- for one thing, it means that those who are opposed to Epicurean materialism for all sorts of reasons (philosophical, religious, and/or political) can 'associate' Darwinism with what they oppose, and as a result, scientific theories are drawn into the culture war. The result is predictably disastrous.
Also, I think you mis-perceive by whom the ID movement is really being sustained. It isn’t primarily the people who contribute to this blog. It is the people who write books and engage in public lectures and debates—people like Stephen Meyer, William Dembski, Michael Behe, Phillip Johnson, David Berlinski, and Douglas Axe. You won’t find them making the kinds of conflations you note, at least not in public. They stick to the science and the evidence and reasoned arguments. They are invariably polite and reasonable, even in the face of serious ridicule and slander (although Berlinski has a wicked wit, I will admit).
Fair point, though these published authors need an audience to buy their books, download their lectures, attend their debates, and in general, make the whole gig a money-maker for the publishers and distributors and creators of media content. If there weren't money to made in it, or no way for the money spent to effect policy, there wouldn't be an intelligent design movement -- just a few people talking to one another. And I take it that Uncommon Descent is just one of many sites where that audience can constitute itself as an audience, where the newest books on design theory or criticisms of 'Darwinism' can find the appropriate audience, and so on.Kantian Naturalist
September 15, 2013
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AF: You know or easily should know EXACTLY what has been done, just where and why my summary above is accurate. Shame on you for further enabling of smears. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2013
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KN: Your dishonourable attempt at moral equivalency is duly noted, with sadness. Perhaps it has not dawned on you that RB has repeatedly been corrected on his misbehaviour and has been repudiated. I do not hold moderation powers, but I certainly believe that having been warned, further abusive behaviour on his part should meet the three strikes, out rule. There simply is no case at UD of the level of slander and hate fest as is currently ongoing at TSZ. That crosses the line, bigtime and is at the enough is enough level. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2013
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That specifically includes the blog owner as hosting slander is to have significant moral responsibility for it.
An important principle; I'm sure you'll bring it to Barry Arrington's attention the next time Robert Byers shares with us his anti-semitism and misogyny.Kantian Naturalist
September 15, 2013
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Darkness exists because there isn't enough light. Darwinism/atheism exist because we IDers/theists are not smart enough to show the splendour of God and His designs. Let's continue to retry with patience, the patience of the Truth, patiens quia aeterna.niwrad
September 15, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist, re. #30:
The conflation functions by allowing a string of associations between the scientific-empirical issues (evolutionary theory and design theory), the epistemological issues (pragmatism and rationalism), the metaphysical issues (naturalism and theism), the religious-political issues (secularized humanism and political theology), the cultural-political issues (liberalism/progressivism and social conservativism). The intelligent design movement is sustained by the perception of linkages between these quite different (and wholly separable) domains. At work is a very stark, black-and-white, with-us-or-against-us, Manichean mentality.
Well, first of all, you make a good point about conflating different types of issues. I myself am certain that living things were designed. There is no other reasonable explanation for the incredibly sophisticated, elegant, and mind-numbingly complex engineering of living organisms, from cells on up to the most advanced multicellular creatures, along with the astounding amount of information needed for their operation, maintenance, and replication. On the other hand, I am a political liberal. I am a theist, true, but no Christian. However, there is one conflation which I think is justified on the whole, and that is that an atheist/materialist metaphysical position and Darwinism go hand in hand more often than not. And I believe that it is true that in the vast majority of cases, Darwinism is defended so fervently because without it, the materialist metaphysic is much, much harder to sustain. One can see this at work in the writings of many Darwin defenders, from Dawkins to Coyne to P. Z. Myers. Also, I think you mis-perceive by whom the ID movement is really being sustained. It isn't primarily the people who contribute to this blog. It is the people who write books and engage in public lectures and debates---people like Stephen Meyer, William Dembski, Michael Behe, Phillip Johnson, David Berlinski, and Douglas Axe. You won't find them making the kinds of conflations you note, at least not in public. They stick to the science and the evidence and reasoned arguments. They are invariably polite and reasonable, even in the face of serious ridicule and slander (although Berlinski has a wicked wit, I will admit).Bruce David
September 15, 2013
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KF What exactly is it you claim is slanderous at TSZ? Please be specific.Alan Fox
September 15, 2013
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FYI-FTR: UD WAC no 8, on the theocratic totalitarian agenda smear: __________ >> 8] Intelligent Design is an attempt by the Religious Right to establish a Theocracy Darwinist advocates often like to single out the “Discovery Institute” as their prime target for this charge. It is, of course, beyond ridiculous. In fact, all members from that organization and all prominent ID spokespersons embrace the American Founders’ principle of representative democracy. All agree that civil liberties are grounded in religious “principles” (on which the framers built the republic) not religious “laws” (which they risked their lives to avoid), and support the proposition that Church and State should never become one. However, anti-ID zealots too often tend to misrepresent the political issues at stake and distort the original intent, spirit, and letter of the founding documents. Historically, the relationship between Church and State was characterized not as a “union” (religious theocracy) or a radical separation (secular tyranny) but rather as an “intersection,” a mutual co-existence that would allow each to express itself fully without any undue interference from the other. There was no separation of God from government. On the contrary, everyone understood that freedom follows from the principle that the Creator God grants “unalienable rights,” a point that is explicit in the US Declaration of Independence. Many Darwinists are hostile to such an explicitly Creation-anchored and declaratively “self-evident” foundation for liberty and too often then misunderstand or pervert its historical context – the concept and practice of covenantal nationhood and just Government under God. Then, it becomes very tempting to take the cheap way out: (i) evade the responsibility of making their scientific case, (ii) change the subject to politics, (iii) pretend to a superior knowledge of the history, and (iv) accuse the other side of attempting to establish a “theocracy.” In fact, design thinking is incompatible with theocratic principles, a point that is often lost on those who don’t understand it. Jefferson and his colleagues — all design thinkers — argued that nature is designed, and part of that design reflects the “natural moral law,” which is observed in nature and written in the human heart as “conscience.” Without it, there is no reasonable standard for informing the civil law or any moral code for defining responsible citizenship. For, the founders held that (by virtue of the Mind and Conscience placed within by our common Creator) humans can in principle know the core ideas that distinguish right from wrong without blindly appealing to any religious text or hierarchy. They therefore claimed that the relationship between basic rights and responsibilities regarding life, liberty and fulfillment of one’s potential as a person is intuitively clear. Indeed, to deny these principles leads into a morass of self-contradictions and blatant self-serving hypocrisies; which is just what “self-evident” means. So, as a member of a community, each citizen is should follow his conscience and traditions in light of such self-evident moral truth; s/he therefore deserves to be free from any tyranny or theocracy that which would frustrate such pursuit of virtue. By that standard, religious believers are permitted and even obliged to publicly promote their values for the common good; so long as they understand that believers (and unbelievers) who hold other traditions or worldviews may do the same. Many Darwinists, however, confuse civil laws that are derived from religious principles and from the natural moral law (representative democracy) with religious laws (autocratic theocracy). So, they are reduced to arguing that freedom is based on a murky notion of “reason,” which, for them, means anti-religion. Then, disavowing the existence of moral laws, natural rights, or objectively grounded consciences, they can provide no successful rational justification for the basic right to free expression; which easily explains why they tend to support it for only those who agree with their point of view. Sadly, they then too often push for — and often succeed in — establishing civil laws that de-legitimize those very same religious principles that are the historic foundation for their right to advocate their cause. Thus, they end up in precisely the morass of agenda-serving self-referential inconsistencies and abuses that the founders of the American Republic foresaw. So, it is no surprise that, as a matter of painfully repeated fact, such zealots will then typically “expel” and/or slander any scientist or educator who challenges their failed paradigm or questions its materialistic foundations. That is why for instance, Lewontin publicly stated: Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [Bold emphasis added] The point of all this should be clear. ID does not seek to establish a theocracy; it simply wants to disestablish a growing Darwinist tyranny. >> __________ Beyond this point anyone going along with or trumpeting the smear is doing so in the teeth of what s/he knows or should know and is being a party to a willfully deceitful slander. That specifically includes the blog owner as hosting slander is to have significant moral responsibility for it. Also, remember, that in another week or so, it will be a full year with no serious takers for a challenge to freely host here at UD an essay laying out the observationally anchored case for the darwinist tree of life from the roots up. That is, there has been ample opportunity to address the matter on the merits as a scientific debate. Rejected and derided, but instead we see the foulness summarised and answered above. In terms of the essence of the design theory view, it is that the deep past of origins cannot be directly observed so we must study its traces, and infer explanatory models on causal factors shown to produce consequences directly comparable to the traces. Thus such features, where characteristic of a cause, are an empirically reliable sign. And while inductive reasoning on signs is always provisional, it can be highly reliable. Mechanical necessity such as F= ma, gives rise to low contingency natural regularities that are often reduced to laws. Chance processes yield high contingency outcomes that may follow relevant statistical distribution models such as the normal curve. Design will often be highly contingent also, but will frequently yield patterns such as functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (such as the text string in this post) that are maximally implausible on chance but are on billions of cases observed a reliable sign of design. No great mystery, and directly empirically testable, just show blind chance and mechanical necessity producing FSCO/I. Only, that has not happened, many attempts notwithstanding. So, we have good reason to rule out mechanical necessity if we see high contingency of outcomes under similar starting conditions, and chance if we see something utterly implausible by chance. This being done on a per aspect basis for an object, process, phenomenon, etc. Nothing intrinsically strange or hard to follow, or in breach of canons of inductive, scientific reasoning. And certainly no reference to the Nicene Creed or the Chicago declaration on inerrancy etc. No, quote Bible and try to guide science based on interpretation thereof. That is, not inherently religious. The problem is, Darwinists nailed their flag to the mast 150 years ago, but over the past 60 years it has become plain that the world of life is chock full of signs of design, from DNA on up. And the further problem over the same 60 years, is that the observed cosmos turns out to give every indication of being fine tuned in many ways that facilitate C chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life. Those who saw Darwinism as an excellent way to dress up atheism and materialism in a lab coat and seize the prestige of science to advance their ideology, have run into big trouble. And they are throwing a royal, foully uncivil temper tantrum, as the TSZ thread shows. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2013
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PPS: TSZ thread duly archived for future reference. I think fair warning should be given to anyone hanging around and going along quietly in a thread that falsely accuses of a right wing totalitarian agenda -- read that as code for "nazi" folks, they don't know nazism was statist-left as National SOCIALIST German Workers/Labour Party directly says -- resting on a conflation of the design inference with creationism in the OP (onlookers cf the UD WAC's 1 - 8 or so for longstanding correctives to these smears that are known or should be known -- the post is willfully deceitful) and seemingly without compunction takes a commenter's false accusation -- actually, stated assumption -- of fraud as a point of departure. EL should note her responsibilities as thread owner. And BTW on a historic note, those dismissing a "low traffic site" should note that the Germans in 1940 were always harping on about the last 400 Spitfires (the Hurricanes, the majority, got no respect . . . ). Somehow, they just could not shoot down enough to knock out Fighter Command. If you think lies and smears such as I just listed will ultimately drown out the truth, think again.kairosfocus
September 15, 2013
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WJM: Now I have a little more time, let me respond more specifically. As you will have seen, I am highlighting the effectiveness of a force in being, hold the base and build a centre of refuge and resurgence strategy to hold the line and blunt the surging tide of evil. (I should mention the disproportionate impact of the Poles, Czechs and others in Fighter Command in 1940.) And if what I am seeing at BSU and TSZ do not classically exemplify slanderous malice, evil and hate, leading to oppression if it has power to get away with it, nothing does. Such evil needs to be exposed and resisted, firmly. Stoutly. Steadfastly. Relentlessly, at every step. Jesus put it bluntly: "go tell that fox . . . ," speaking of Herod. yes, we will not be able to reach the rage, slander and hate blinded, who are besotted with an ideology that undermines basic morality and reason. But that means they will show themselves as just that irrational, vicious, unreasonable, deceitful, slanderous. And those who go along will show themselves to be enablers playing a good cop bad cop manipulative game. No police force that allows that to get out of control will hold the trust of the populace, and the payback is going to be bigtime. As the US Navy says, trust cannot be surged. We are inevitably flawed human beings, but we must show ourselves to be decent, honourable, brave and standing in a way that shows sufficient strength to stand the day in the teeth of evil. Remember, the hidden audience of the Battle of Britain was the USA, and the preserving of the British Isles was the basis for June 6, 1944. Americans, when the French saw a few pivotal American victories, it knew it could reinforce success, and so the French intervention came that won your independence. BSU, I suspect, is going to be a test case. The censorship is so blatant as can be seen from the two contrasted courses, that we see here a test of the integrity of the American academy and probably eventually the court system, and as well the media. If this case is lost, it will be plain where these institutions stand, and they will simply have to be replaced. The time for secession will have come. No sensible parent should send a child to a school like this, no alumnus should give them a red cent -- and should tell them just why, sending a copy of a gift to a design theory institute and a College that can be supported with the refusal. With the Internet, we can establish schools in jurisdictions beyond the reach of the corrupt courts and offer courses. If there is a refusal to respect the credentials, then we simply erect an alternative economy. A mass boycott is called for anyway. Dump newspapers, cable subscriptions etc, too. Use the broadband web that the pornographers built to enmesh people in the porn-perv agenda, for a good purpose. Solid education. Formal and informal. Time for serious sponsorship to build online webs that give a solid grounding in origins science, from a balancing perspective, and for solid presentations of design theory, including exposes of a rogues gallery of deception, hate, slander and worse. Don't over looks the worldviews debate, and exposing the implications and history of evolutionary materialism from Plato to today. The rage at that expose is of the ilk: fling stone inna hog pen, a de one it lick dat bawl. Web debates won't make much difference to the en-darkened and venomous, whether they want to play bad cop or good cop. (The two are in cahoots, don't forget.) As to the Alinsky all angels on our side only devils on the other tactics, I would first and foremost EXPOSE the tactics for what they are so that those who resort to them will discredit themselves. As in Dr Dawkins and co, including TSZ in light of the recent thread of slanders, if you imagine that hose who disagree with you could only do so because they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked, all it shows is your sophomoric bombast, silly pride and arrogant pomposity. And nope you will not be allowed to get away with trying to redefine science as applied materialism. That undermines the credibility of science as a means of pursuing the empirically reliable truth about our world based on experiment, observation, hypothesis, testing and analysis. Science is too important to be allowed to be held hostage by hate-filled ruthless ideologues. And, you have shown yourselves to be that for all to see. Where, those who play good cop-bad cop games with such, only show themselves to be enablers of vicious evil and slander. Just remember, you started the fight, darwinists. Started it a long time ago, and have openly showed the hate, slander and dishonourable nature of your cause. We will finish it -- and we will do so with honour. Bydand! GEM of TKI PS: WJM, I think we need to have a private discussion on worldviews and beliefs. (This and this may be a good start point for such.)kairosfocus
September 15, 2013
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MF: What did you have to say in correction to the TSZ thread with an OP resting on slanders, lies, false accusations, poisonous mudslinging that then egged on a hate fest? Until you show yourself decent we have to regard you as nothing more than an enabler of the foulest willful deception and hate. I think it is time to make the dividing line between the civil and the barbarians quite clear, and as a Briton you will understand what it means when on Battle of Britain day, I point to that example of the power of a force in being strategy that resists the surging tide of evil and thereby brings it to a standstill, and thereby enables a base for resisting and overthrowing evil to be maintained. Those who stand now will in the long run be remembered as those who in our time were as Fighter Command was in its Hurricanes, Spitfires and even the failed Defiants, then. And yes, I am saying that the slanderous hate fest we are seeing shows us just who is standing in for Uncle Herman's boys. KF PS: Americans, George Washington's strategy during your revolution was a similar force in being strategy until he could get help from the French. But never forget that it was that thin line of WWI technology -- still partly fabric and framework -- Hurricanes [predominantly!] and a leavening of the more advanced Spitfires manned by too often half trained pilots, that stood between Hitler and subjecting the world to a night of barbarism as has never been seen before. So thin, was the margin of survival for freedom and civlisation.kairosfocus
September 15, 2013
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Impressive how you can convert under-informed people ranting against science
This should win an award for being among the most ignorant statements ever said.TSErik
September 15, 2013
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This thread has been quite interesting. It has shown me that some are seriously lacking in self-awareness.TSErik
September 15, 2013
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"At work [in the IDM] is a very stark, black-and-white, with-us-or-against-us, Manichean mentality." - Kantian Naturalist/Emergentist Yes, I would agree with that assessment of many IDists. This is also part of the Expelled Syndrome mentality, which makes them talk of 'war' and 'battle' so easily in public. Perhaps becoming angry, alarmist and uncharitable is simply part of what 'joining' the IDM does to people. It is no wonder that thoughtful Abrahamic believers have tended to stay away from them. Dr. Matzke? Welcome to the club.Gregory
September 15, 2013
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