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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
kf:
EL, it would be laughable if it were not in the end so sad. I have and others have, time after time on subject after subject for over two years, taken you through the facts, issues, reasoning, proper definitions and more. Predictably, you have twisted us into strawman pretzels, played evasion games, moved goalposts, only admitted correction under extreme pressure, and then sooner or later doubled back to the old talking points again.
truthMung
September 20, 2013
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EL:
As I have already pointed out, William, I haven’t actually made any claims about Darwinism.
Sure you have, repeatedly.Mung
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I am not contradicting myself, William.
otoh, I've noticed four documented cases of you contradicting yourself in this one thread alone. I have to wonder whether you have a different concept of what it means to contradict oneself than the rest of us here at UD. Do tell.Mung
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
To me, the fundamental problem with the ID movement is that it is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of scientific claims, and extrapolates from perceived scientific claims to a perceived ideology which it fears and opposes.
Was that your complaint against Meyer's Darwin's Doubt?Mung
September 20, 2013
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KN, Care to answer the questions I posed to you in #547?William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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You mean like how William has admitted that being a good salesman is more important that speaking the truth?
Liar. I never said any such thing.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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I'll forgive you the Dawkins one. It made me laugh, it was an obvious photoshop, and Dawkins does hold that position as far as I know. Dawkins is not half as smart as he thinks hi is IMO.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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You are confused, Box. Indeed, Dennett argues that evolution can account for our capacity for morality, and I think many people who you would call "Darwinists" would agree. That is very different to saying that Darwinism is the belief that Rape yadda yadda. You are confusing a hypothesis concerning the origin of a function (the ability to figure out a moral system) with an ideology that makes a specific moral claim. Indeed, you have managed to get Dennett ass-backward. Dennett does NOT "refuse... to condemn rape on the basis of evolutionary theory". Quite the reverse. Dennett says that evolution has endowed us with the capacity to take moral responsibility for our actions which we refuse at the cost of our freedom. That is why I knew it was photoshopped, even before I saw the spelling error, and later the Dawkins' photoshops. So not only have you falsely attributed to Dennett, and to the Bertrand Russell Society approval of a statement that Dennett did not make, but you have attributed to them a position that they explicitly do not hold. And nor does anyone that I have ever met. I suggest you take down the image.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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//About the photos. Dawkins, during his debate with Rowan Williams, actually did say that consciousness is an illusion. I'm 100% certain. I remember that the question 'an illusion to whom?' popped into my head. About Dennett. He has proposed on several occasions that evolution can account for the origin of morality - unlike many posters here who hold the view that evolution is neutral on morality.Box
September 20, 2013
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I had not noticed until now, Box's links to the other doctored photos. So it seems clear now that Box was the photoshopper. I found the Dawkins ones mildly amusing, because obviously fake. But the Dennett one is quite simply dishonest, as it actually attributes an opinion to Dennett, and implies the endorsement of distinguished humanist society, that neither he nor they hold. And s/he then presented it in a post that the unwary might well take as the truth.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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EL when slanderous false accusations were put into my mouth some time ago by abusing a photograph, where were you on the subject? The points I made to Jerad just now hold with double force for you. Manipulator! KF
I'm not sure what you are referring to, KF, but I do recall giving you considerable support when someone posted some things on your blog (and also told the person who did so in no uncertain terms that I strongly condemned his actions). I seem to recall I even gave you a (heartfelt) virtual hug! And I remember taking someone or other to task for a doctored photo of Denyse. But I take it from your comments that you would agree that doctoring a photograph of Daniel Dennett to make it look as though he'd been congratulated by the Bertrand Russell Society for making the rape comment that William posted here, is at the very least to be similarly condemned? I'd say it was worse, actually, because from Box's post at 557, it appears he intended it to be believed as an actual photograph. At least the doctored photo of Denyse that I recall was made no pretense of being anything other than a doctored photograph. In other words, it was rude, but not a lie.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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And Jerad, I have not looked at any photo, but will note that there was a campaign of nasty manipulated photos targetting people associated with this blog some time ago. Did you stand up and speak out about this, or were you busy enabling as usual. Don’t you even dare suggest by asking such a loaded question that I endorse abuse and misbehaviour. This is the second time today I have had to point this problem of raising clouds of unjustified suspicion to you.
I honestly do not remember such an incident. As you know, I am not a constant participant on this forum. But, regardless, the people to target are the ones that help support and condone the behaviour. A link to a picture was posted on this thread earlier today. A thread that you are participating in. On a forum where you have certain privileges. Do you condone that picture?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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You are an enabler of cynical, hate driven bigotry and slander, with no regard for the truth or fairness. I owe you no explanation of views and you are in no position to sit in judgement of anyone else — indeed the first problem with your position is that you have no basis whatsoever for grounding right and wrong save might and manipulation make ‘right,’
Thank goodness. You really are just making things up and accusing me of things I haven't said. For a minute there I though that I might have been unclear. Whew!!
so you first need to justify the view that there is such a thing as wrong that ought not to be done before you have any basis to speak on moral issues. Otherwise you are a manipulative moral menace and enabler of the undermining of moral governance. All I will say beyond this is that evolutionary materialism opens the door to nihilism, and when mixed with power — as the ghosts of over 100 millions from the century just past moan out in warning — it is literally murderous.
Let me think . . . have I killed anyone? Nope. Have I incited anyone to kill someone else? Nope? Do I associated with anyone who does such things? Funnily enough, no again. Do I subscribe to any political or ideological belief structure which advocates such things? Ummm . . . hmmm . . . oh, wait . . . no, I do not. Have I spent years of my life trying to help people get along in the world, teaching them to better cope with things that might cause them difficulty? Hey, you know what, yes I have!! Have I been kind and generous and helpful to others including those I disagree with? Gosh darn, that's another yes!! Have I tried to marginalise or shut out anyone with whom I have a philosophical difference? Well . . . I . . . er . . . wait for it . . . NO!! Pick another strawman scapegoat. Just because I disagree with you and am willing to face up to your accusations and derisions on this forum does not mean I am who you claim me to be. You don't know me. You make no attempt to know me. You use me and your made-up perception of me as a kind of bogey-man, a shadow warrior. I am no threat to you or your family or your fellow believers. If you burn all your bridges you WILL be on an isolated island of disfunction.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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It apparently has not dawned on you that hose who make accusations of fraud and treasonous conspiracy — that is what you have been hosting — bear an ENORMOUS burden of proof.
Have you not accused me of being in cahoots with some agenda promulgated by TSZ and AtBC and provided no evidence to bolster that accusation?
Or, you simply do not care, they are all devils on the other side anyway and we think wee can get away with it. It’s all a battle of “narratives” anyway and there is no real duty of care to truth or fairness.
You mean like how William has admitted that being a good salesman is more important that speaking the truth?
And even on this sobering issue, the evo mat agitators play cynical strawman tactic games to try to confuse naive onlookers. Until it is too late.)
Again, William J Murray has admitted that's how he's operating. Are you condemning him?
And you are an enemy of the truth and of decency. Henceforth rest assured I will treat you as such.
Oh well, at least we know someone who isn't going to be invited to the end-of-the-year party.
For one instance, conversation or discussion with you is impossible, you cannot be trusted to have any regard for the truth or fairness or decency. Never mind the genteel aura you have cultivated.
Someone said, quite recently, it's not about truth anyway. Now . . . who was that?
WJM is plainly right:
Oh yes!! Thanks for reminding me.
Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for. There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion. There is only war
You know what? Many of my best friends are staunch Christians. In fact, I'm having lunch with one of them tomorrow. She's lovely. We've talked about our differences. Honestly, openly. We're still friends. We're not at war. We disagree about some things. But, actually, we agree on most things. Funnily enough, she accepts modern evolutionary theory.
You have joined the likes of NCSE, TWT, AtBC et al in a cultural war of dishonourable below the belt, nihilist means. Indeed, it seems that one of the reasons you and ilk so easily project evil conspiracy to others is just that: projection, as a psychological defense mechanism for what you are doing. Indeed that is a part of the function of the sort of turnabout false accusations we have repeatedly seen. One of the dirtiest most cynical methods of Herr Goebbels.
And you're not projecting at all are you? Noooooooooooooo. I mean aside from your outrageous and now repeated comparison of your 'opposition' as Nazis. Well done!! I'm sure this sort of hysterical rhetoric goes down nicely with the troops but it's mostly just a method for making sure there's no faltering in the lines. And an attempt to win some kudos from the boss.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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EL when slanderous false accusations were put into my mouth some time ago by abusing a photograph, where were you on the subject? The points I made to Jerad just now hold with double force for you. Manipulator! KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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PS: And Jerad, I have not looked at any photo, but will note that there was a campaign of nasty manipulated photos targetting people associated with this blog some time ago. Did you stand up and speak out about this, or were you busy enabling as usual. Don't you even dare suggest by asking such a loaded question that I endorse abuse and misbehaviour. This is the second time today I have had to point this problem of raising clouds of unjustified suspicion to you.kairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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So, KF, what do you think of someone who photoshops made up quotes on to the photograph of someone they want to denigrate? Is that slander, in your view?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Jerad: You are an enabler of cynical, hate driven bigotry and slander, with no regard for the truth or fairness. I owe you no explanation of views and you are in no position to sit in judgement of anyone else -- indeed the first problem with your position is that you have no basis whatsoever for grounding right and wrong save might and manipulation make 'right,' so you first need to justify the view that there is such a thing as wrong that ought not to be done before you have any basis to speak on moral issues. Otherwise you are a manipulative moral menace and enabler of the undermining of moral governance. All I will say beyond this is that evolutionary materialism opens the door to nihilism, and when mixed with power -- as the ghosts of over 100 millions from the century just past moan out in warning -- it is literally murderous. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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But there’s no grounds for certainty that all or any of those hypotheses could be confirmed or definitely ruled out. I observe too that you avoided most of the questions about the designer itself. The ‘when’ questions really focus more on the structure than on the designer. But the questions about the nature of the designer you didn’t even attempt to guess about – physical characteristics, one or many designers, mental state, intention. Not even a try. And, finally, it should be noted that in all your speculations, you proceeded from the starting point that the structure was in fact the product of intelligent activity. Only after that starting point could you then even consider the other questions. And that is the point of the thought experiment. As you well demonstrated, questions about the nature of the designer are logically downstream from the inference of design itself. Inability to definitely answer those secondary questions cannot invalidate the conclusion of design. QED.
I would ask those questions regardless of whether I thought the object had arisen naturally or not in an attempt to determine if it could have arisen naturally. Although, I admit, the scenario is pretty heavily stacked in favour of there being a designer since Lego bricks do not arise and assemble on their own as far as I know. But I am open to all possibilities. But my other point was: IF you think you've detected design then you start asking questions and making guesses and perform some investigations. I do not see any ID proponents even attempting such questions. Most ID proponents seem happy to say: there was a designer and . . . nothing. No more attempt at asking questions or making guesses about when or how. Or, even, IF. I'd investigate. I'd test. I'd work the problem until I'd exhausted everything I could think of. I'd never just say: oh, gosh, it looks designed, and walk away. I'd really, really, really want to find out as much as I could about the design and the designer. Who wouldn't? Why is it that ID proponents seem so uninterested in pursuing those questions? Is it because they think the know the answers already? And, if that's true, how are they sure?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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WJM and others at UD have a big problem with Darwinism having nothing to say about the existence of objective morality because: (1) They have an ideological commitment to the concept of objective morality. (2) Having nothing to say about idea X is to them the same exact thing as either rejecting X or promoting X, depending on what they want to argue at the time. (3) They seem to think Christianity says something about the existence of objective morality.
I have no problem with (1), personally, though I'd like to think that my commitment to objective morality is not ideological. (But it could be part of one's ideology if one is not able to distinguish between taboos and folkways of one's local culture from what is genuinely unjust or destructive or human flourishing.) As for (3), I don't doubt that Christianity has a lot to say about objective morality -- as a Jewish atheist I'm offended only at the thought that Christianity is uniquely situated to do so. So it's really (2) that's the problem, and I agree with you there.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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EL: You seem to think this is a little game where you can sit there sipping tea and eating crumpets while enabling the unjustified and irresponsible, bigotry and hate driven trashing of people's good names through false accusations of fraud and conspiracist theories of an imagined theocratic takeover that would be ludicrous on the face save that there is a climate of hysteria and polarisation that has been cultivated by utterly cynical darwinist propagandists such as the NCSE and their fellow travellers. You also seem to forget that I cut my eye teeth on communist agitators so I know what a propaganda hysteria looks like and smells like. Not to mention what agitators and their fellow travellers sound like. And how easily people can be taken in by such cynically calculated amoral wickedness. I simply tell you this, out of your own mouth you have condemned yourself. It apparently has not dawned on you that hose who make accusations of fraud and treasonous conspiracy -- that is what you have been hosting -- bear an ENORMOUS burden of proof. Or, you simply do not care, they are all devils on the other side anyway and we think wee can get away with it. It's all a battle of "narratives" anyway and there is no real duty of care to truth or fairness. (On this, onlookers, cf here. The attitude I describe is distressingly commonplace nowadays, precisely a reflection of the undermining of civility occasioned by the spreading amorality of evolutionary materialism and the outright nihilism it opens the door to. Something that has been observed and remarked on since Plato in The laws Bk X, 2350 years ago. And even on this sobering issue, the evo mat agitators play cynical strawman tactic games to try to confuse naive onlookers. Until it is too late.) You, Dr Liddle, now have no credibility, whether you are a willing dupe and "good cop" enabler who has surrendered her good sense or whether you are fully aware of what you are doing makes but little difference. You know better, or you full well should know better. And you should do a whole lot better. And you are an enemy of the truth and of decency. Henceforth rest assured I will treat you as such. For one instance, conversation or discussion with you is impossible, you cannot be trusted to have any regard for the truth or fairness or decency. Never mind the genteel aura you have cultivated. WJM is plainly right:
a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians. They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general). They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with. Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for. There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion. There is only war
Such naifs better wake up fast. You have joined the likes of NCSE, TWT, AtBC et al in a cultural war of dishonourable below the belt, nihilist means. Indeed, it seems that one of the reasons you and ilk so easily project evil conspiracy to others is just that: projection, as a psychological defense mechanism for what you are doing. Indeed that is a part of the function of the sort of turnabout false accusations we have repeatedly seen. One of the dirtiest most cynical methods of Herr Goebbels. You started the fight, we will end it, but by honourable means. Bydand GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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William?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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I wonder why some object to Murray’s meme about rape. Daniel C. Dennett unequivocally refuses to condemn rape on the basis of evolutionary theory.
Go to comment 557 for the link to a spurious and childish photo. KF . . . do you condone this? William? Denyse? Sal? Anyone?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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But KN,
Taken all by itself, Darwinism has nothing at all to say about whether there is objective morality or not — because no scientific theory can do that.
WJM and others at UD have a big problem with Darwinism having nothing to say about the existence of objective morality because: (1) They have an ideological commitment to the concept of objective morality. (2) Having nothing to say about idea X is to them the same exact thing as either rejecting X or promoting X, depending on what they want to argue at the time. (3) They seem to think Christianity says something about the existence of objective morality.LarTanner
September 20, 2013
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Greetings, Jerad / EL Sorry I've been absent for a bit - life can get in the way at times. Thank you for trying the thought experiment. I found your responses quite instructive. Jerad wrote:
Based on the bricks used it would be easy enough to estimate a date before which the house could not have been built. Chemical analysis might even reveal a bit more about when and where the bricks were made. As the White House has undergone changes over the years it MIGHT be possible to further narrow down the date of construction depending on if certain changes are reflected in the model.
Analyzing the composition of the bricks is an excellent idea. But as you yourself comment, this would only give a maximum age for the structure. After that chemical analysis of the bricks says nothing about when the structure was assembled. I like the other idea too, though I didn't specify the level of detail that the model exhibits. Even so, such a comparison may not necessarily give more information about when the structure was assembled (which, again, you seem to acknowledge, have capitalized 'MIGHT').
It would be worth figuring out how the bricks could have been purchased. That is: could the bricks used have come from a combination of existing sets (which is how most Lego bricks are sold these days). It that was determined then it would be possible to narrow down the time when the various sets were purchased based on the dates they were available for sale. It would also be possible to get an estimate of the amount of money required. Which would give some idea of the financial resources available to the designer/model maker.
Looking at the specific pieces to see when they were issued is another clever idea, though its usefulness is limited when dealing with more generic blocks. Again, however, this tells us nothing definite about the time the structure was assembled. Your second suggestion is not as good, in my opinion. While we might be able to discern the approximate cost of the materials (lego bricks in this case), we have no way of linking that cost to the financial resources of the builder of the structure. Perhaps the bricks were purchased by someone other than the builder (e.g. parent, friend, friend's parents, etc.). At any rate, if we possess only the structure to draw inferences from, the financial state of the builder cannot be known with any confidence, merely speculated about.
It would be easy enough to count the number of bricks and get a rough estimate of the assembly time required given an average brick placement time. It would be plausible to roughly estimate the intellectual level of the designer based on the complexity of the design. Also, some inferences could be made depending on how accurate the representation is.
This is a bit of a stretch. Even if we could calculate the minimum amount of time required, that still tells us nothing about how long it actually took. For all we know the builder of the structure could have gotten bored and wandered off for a few hours, perhaps to get a beer or watch cartoons. Maybe he/she/them wasn't/weren't in a particular hurry. Maybe he/she/them was/were trying to break a record and, consequently, went as fast as possible. Who knows? The structure itself gives us no way to no with any certainty. Concerning the intellectual level of the designer, that's so obvious as to be tautalogical. Certainly it wasn't built by someone too stupid to put it together. But was this unknown builder in primary school; is it a high school drop out; does it have a bachelors, masters, or doctorate? Perhaps someone in MENSA built it. Again, it is impossible to know with confidence.
The point being, depending on the level of interest in the construction, there might be much that could be discerned. And there certainly could be many, many [sic] hypothesises regarding aspect of the method used, the time taken, etc.
This is true, as far as it goes. There could, indeed, be a great many hypotheses. But there's no grounds for certainty that all or any of those hypotheses could be confirmed or definitely ruled out. I observe too that you avoided most of the questions about the designer itself. The 'when' questions really focus more on the structure than on the designer. But the questions about the nature of the designer you didn't even attempt to guess about - physical characteristics, one or many designers, mental state, intention. Not even a try. And, finally, it should be noted that in all your speculations, you proceeded from the starting point that the structure was in fact the product of intelligent activity. Only after that starting point could you then even consider the other questions. And that is the point of the thought experiment. As you well demonstrated, questions about the nature of the designer are logically downstream from the inference of design itself. Inability to definitely answer those secondary questions cannot invalidate the conclusion of design. QED.Optimus
September 20, 2013
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If you do choose your beliefs on the basis of what you think is true, William, that is fine. But you said you chose them on the basis of their utility. Therefore I concluded that you did not choose them on the basis of their likely truthfulness. If I misinterpreted you, fine. But I do not lie. Nor do I photoshop made-up quotations on to the photographs of those I wish to denigrate. I would dearly like to know who did.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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William wants to say something like
It follows from Darwinism that there is no objective morality.
And of course that's completely absurd. What might be correct is something like this:
If Darwinism is true, and Darwinism is incompatible with whatever x, y, z metaphysical principles or truths, and objective morality only makes sense given those principles or truths, then there is no objective morality.
In which case it would be a relatively simple matter of arguing either that Darwinism is not incompatible with the relevant metaphysical principles or truths, or that objective morality does not depend upon them. The lesson here is, Darwinism only entails the absence of objective morality if one tacitly or explicitly accepts other claims that are logically distinct from Darwinism itself. Taken all by itself, Darwinism has nothing at all to say about whether there is objective morality or not -- because no scientific theory can do that. Now, William has attempted, on several occasions, to argue that objective morality necessarily depends on metaphysical principles that are incompatible with materialism. But that only cuts mustard if Darwinism is the same thing with, or entails, materialism. And it clearly isn't, because no scientific theory, all by itself, entails any metaphysical doctrines or positions. Materialism is a straw-man, and the intelligent design movement has nothing to offer besides criticizing it. "Beating a straw horse," maybe?Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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The problem here, William, is that not only do you not understand the math, you do not even understand the role of the math. You seem to think, as I’ve said before, that science involves staring at data and dreaming up some story they like about it, and publishing that “interpretation”, which you can then critique for logic. That’s not how it works. I suggest you find out how it works before you attempt to critique it.
It's about finding better models for what we observe. We observe some phenomenon. We don't understand it. We can't explain it. We come up with some explanation 'cause we do that kind of thing. Eventually our model doesn't work, at least in certain circumstances. So we try and make it better. We examine the phenomenon more closely. We attempt to see under what situations it arises. We try to narrow down the scope of the phenomenon. We look for relationships between the phenomenon and other factors. We try and codify those relationships in simple, logical, mathematical terms. When the simple models show their limits then we start looking for more complicated explanations. We do more experiments, we collect more data, we test and prod and tweak and guess and, sometimes, make an outrageous guess. Many of us stop examining some parts of our experience. We get to a point where we're satisfied with one explanation or another and we let it rest. But there are some people who will not be happy with our complacency. They will keep looking and searching for anything they can find that might spell out why something occurs. And some of them know that if they haven't checked and double checked and triple checked their 'answers', if they haven't asked their colleagues and friends if there's a mistake or a flaw in their reasoning, if they haven't done their best to be objective that they will be raked over the coals with derision and scorn. Those are the people I call scientists. There's no ideology. There's no agenda. There's just the attempt to explain how and why and when some things occur. And to justify why, to a high degree of certainty, their explanation is correct.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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Please note how blatantly Liz is prepared to lie. She originally said:
but he [William Murray] has said that he thinks that belief is a matter of choice, rather than truth.
Note that she said I was making a point about beliefs in general; she did not narrow it down to "his" beliefs, but rather "beliefs" in general. I called her out on that misrepresentation:
Liar. I have said that I choose my beliefs based on their utility to my purposes or goals and made no comment about beliefs in general other than to say that IMO most people do not choose their beliefs, and for those that do, most do not choose them rationally.
Now she says:
And yet calls me a liar when I infer therefore that he does not base his beliefs on what he thinks is true.
Note how suddenly it's been changed from the general "beliefs" to the narrow "his beliefs"? As if "his beliefs" was the original claim she made? Liz is moving into troll territory now. She originally claimed that I made a general statement about beliefs, and now you're trying to revise history after having been called out on her blatant misrepresentation.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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oopsElizabeth B Liddle
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