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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
Brent @ 660 - 661: Well said. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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SH: Try the 101 discussion here on [scroll up for a topics list], noting clips at a and b, from O & W and WmAD respectively. FSCO/I is an after the fact descriptive summary. Terms quite close to it can be seen in the discussions and it is in fact a rearrangement and extension of remarks by Thaxton et al in Ch 8 of the 1984 TMLO. The essential point is complex specification, in a context where the specificity is functional and observable due to need for a significant number of well matched components correctly arranged and coupled together to work, confining one to a narrow zone T in a much wider space of possibilities W that then brings to bear limited atomic and temporal resources at solar system level [500 bits] or observed cosmos [1,000 bits] per the challenge that a blind search will then sample an effectively zero fraction of the possibilities, rendering finding zones T, maximally unlikely. In the case of organisation, something like an autocad file that effectively breaks it down into a "wiring diagram" with specified nodes, will show that such an entity is information bearing. Indeed the simple fact that such files are stored as (clusters of) strings indicates that discussion on strings is WLOG. A focal example is ASCII text for a message like this or a program. Another is the DNA --> mRNA --> Ribosome and tRNA protein synthesis system in the cell. The attempts to make a big dubious novel production out of FSCO/I, are unfortunately to far too large an extent, a rhetorical ploy. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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Ho-De-Ho @650, Very much enjoyed that, but you're obviously a long-haired peacenik which discredits you immediately :) Anyhow, I struggle to see how to unspiral that which has already begun to do so. I don't know how to stop the war that has already been started. Wars usually end when one side nearly annihilates the other. I don't think it's too much to say this is a religious war between naturalism and theism, with our bullets being science and philosophy. There are some "agnostics" in the trenches that don't care about the reasons for the war, but only about the purity of our bullets. Luckily, they are always confirming that my side is right, and we are fighting the righteous battle. (insert implied smiley here . . . but only implied) WJM has indicated that a way forward in winning the war is to focus not only on the bullets and bombs, or their purity, but on recruiting more members through making our side look fairer and their side scarier. They say all's fair in love and war, and there is truth in it. When existence itself is on the line, you may need to chop off your own arm if it threatens to drag the rest of you over. You may need to take off someone else's head to keep from dragging a hundred over. If someone knows how to end a war peacefully, please lead the way, but . . . some wars must be won, and lost. If ending the war only means laying down the hot weapons, but that we keep the cool ones, then we should end this war the old fashioned way, here and now, and spare our grandchildren from having to fight it later. I'm sure this feeling is mutual.Brent
September 21, 2013
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EL, firstly, apologies for the long posting interval lately. It makes it hard to carry on any dialogue.
I’m going to annoy you, I’m afraid, Brent . . .
Why, of course. Sorry to take the last bit first, but . . .
However, I would phrase it as: In most societies, rape is regarded as morally wrong, because it violates the principle that underpins the continuation of a society that has potential net benefits for all.
I'm surprised you would say this, not that it is inconsistent with your own beliefs on the matter, but that it leaves you completely open to, and obviously guilty of, WJM's charges that a Darwinist system (system consistent with "Darwinism") cannot condemn rape. And the first bit last . . .
“Morality” doesn’t “say” anything. People do. Collectively, people form a society, so it is reasonable to say that “society” says something – if that something is the collective mores, or precepts of a society. So I’d say that people in a society collectively construct a shared system of moral precepts and those precepts include, in most societies, the precept that rape is wrong. This seems to be fairly universal, probably because most societies develop a system that places a taboo on one person exploiting another for personal benefit. This is not surprising given that we are a social species and do better when we cooperate with each other than when we act individualistically. So my answer is “closer to that first thing”, because the second doesn’t really make sense.
Which all means that my original challenge to your system of morality, in fact, is correct and undermines it completely; there is no actual morality whatsoever. If people of a society are the source of morality, then people of a society govern morality, and morality doesn't govern people of a society.Brent
September 21, 2013
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KF: I don't have access to those papers. Do they specifically mention "FSCO/I" or is that some term subsequently applied by others retrospectively? Could you quote the actual definitions they gave for the record, and state how they relate, term by term, to Dembski's CSI? Not just the 500 bits part - we all know that.steveh
September 21, 2013
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The name for this technique, from a very sadly familiar grab bag, is the big lie. So named by you know who and who of an utterly unlamented regime in central Europe. And on that note, if you and your ilk do not wish to have your behaviour compared — per we had better learn from history lest we make the same fatal mistakes yet again — to the propaganda techniques of some of the most odious regimes of the century just past, simply stop using them. You probably have them second hand or third hand through Alinsky and his methods as adopted by unscrupulous change facilitators and PR people all over the place, but these are the roots.
Alan and Liz, I think you're right. It's time to leave. For awhile at least. I'm tired of trying to answer questions and not being heard. I'm tired of trying to understand and not getting coherent responses. I'm tired of being accused of things I haven't done, haven't intended on doing, haven't even considered in my most dark moments of doing. I'm tired of not being given the benefit of the doubt. Because I disagree. Because I won't concede. Because I'm saying things that are uncomfortable and hard to hear. In all honesty, I have had to think carefully about my viewpoint having participated on this forum. I've realised that it's important to question and examine any assumptions I've had. I've had to go back and look at things again. And again. Just to be sure. All scientific knowledge is provisional. Subject to new data, new experimentation. New information. As it should be. Nothing is sacred. It's all up for grabs. But some ideas are much more solidly grounded than others. Some explanations are much more established and verified. By independent, multiple lines of evidence. Even if all the details are not in place, some models are just that solid. The ones that time and time again stand up to the challenges and stay standing. After all the data and evidence and experiments are considered. I'm not a hyper-skeptic. I'm not an ideologue. I'm not trying to forward some agenda. I'm just trying to figure out, as best I can, what is true. Not based on what I WANT to be true. But what IS true.Jerad
September 21, 2013
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SH: Yes it has, since Orgel (1973) and Wicken (1979). FSCO/I is just a summary abbreviation for functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information. It is speaking to the functional "subset" of complex specified info, which first found expression in Orgel, 1973, in a bio functional context. Dembski generalised to specification in general in his mathematical work. Focussing on FSCO/I helps us keep our eye on the ball of empirical observation relevant to important contexts. In NFL, Dembski stated plainly that in biological contexts CSI is cashed out as function. Text strings in English ASCII code of 500+ bits are FSCO/I and the computing device you are viewing this on is also FSCO/I. On billions of cases, its only known and -- per needle in haystack issues, plausible -- source is design. Over the past 60 years we came to see the living cell is chock full of it. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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HDH The problems over the design inference would have been settled long ago if objectors would have stuck to matters of science and underlying inductive warrant. Unfortunately, ideological issues have become deeply embedded, and as the context for this thread will show, has gone into slander and grotesque conspiracy theories about alleged treason (TSZ) and censorship (Ball State U). If you want to see how I came to the conclusion that there is something significant to the design inference I suggest clicking on my handle, linked to every comment I have ever made here. Similarly, you may find the 101 level course here helpful. And if your concern is typical fallacious talking points used to try to discredit ID, try here. Threads at UD are driven by debate pushes, mostly coming from opponents wishing to discredit. Thread length is usually a function of how hard objectors want to push. In this particular thread, having had enough of smears I am pushing back. This has led a familiar circle of objectors down a familiar route of red herring distractors led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise. Observe and you will see this same trollish pattern in a lot of places. It reflects what is happening to our civilisation. And unfortunately, origins science issues and ideological matters closely connected are playing a big part in the ongoing collapse of our civilisation at the hands of dark triad factions. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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You full well know that to the contrary for decades it has been openly said and acknowledged, that a simple demonstration that FSCO/I is per reliable observation produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity the design inference regarding the world of life would collapse.
Has the concept of FSCO/I been around for decades already? How time flies. I though GEM only invented FSCO/I a few years ago - around the time that people realized they could not calculate Demsbki's CSI objectively and/or convincingly.steveh
September 21, 2013
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AF: This is laughable:
the time useful dialogue can be resumed is when someone has a positive testable hypothesis of “Intelligent Design”
You full well know that to the contrary for decades it has been openly said and acknowledged, that a simple demonstration that FSCO/I is per reliable observation produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity the design inference regarding the world of life would collapse. The reasons for this are obvious, and for years dozens of counters were attempted. They have consistently failed on closer inspection, typically showing themselves cases of design. It seems this new unfalsifiability line is based on trying a new angle. Well grounded inductions FYI will be empirically reliable but subject to correction or falsification by counter example, as has been famously put on record since Newton 1704 in Opticks Query 31. This has been stated in your presence in correction any number of times. In recent days, by me, to my certain knowledge. Just, to maintain an ideological commitment and rhetorical talking points, you insist on repeating something that you know or full well should know is false. You do so because in a twisted rhetorical calculation you think you can get away with it and will persuade some to believe you. It gives a handy talking point that may impress those who don't know better. But to make it, you have to show a cynical disrespect for truth, fairness and those who for some strange reason look to you and those like you for intellectual leadership. The name for this technique, from a very sadly familiar grab bag, is the big lie. So named by you know who and who of an utterly unlamented regime in central Europe. And on that note, if you and your ilk do not wish to have your behaviour compared -- per we had better learn from history lest we make the same fatal mistakes yet again -- to the propaganda techniques of some of the most odious regimes of the century just past, simply stop using them. You probably have them second hand or third hand through Alinsky and his methods as adopted by unscrupulous change facilitators and PR people all over the place, but these are the roots. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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This is my first comment directed at you here and, I think the first time I have ever addressed you personally.
I'm pretty sure that is correct.
Your restraint is admirable. KF unfortunately is utterly impervious to reason. Luckily, the ID movement has lost its momentum and is no longer the danger to freedom it once was. I am fortunate to be a continent away from this and have never needed to take “Intelligent Design” or its proponents seriously. That the ID emperor is wearing no clothes is pretty clear from the posts and comments on this site. I think the time useful dialogue can be resumed is when someone has a positive testable hypothesis of “Intelligent Design”. Until then, I think watchful waiting is in order.
I live in England and most of the time the controversy seems a long ways away to me as well. You might be right. I'll have a think about it tonight at the pub. I just don't like being personally accused of things I did not do. By I'm trying not to take it personally since no one here really knows me. Cheers!!Jerad
September 21, 2013
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Jerad This is my first comment directed at you here and, I think the first time I have ever addressed you personally. You remonstrate with Kairosfocus:
I would never, ever liken you to people I consider some of the most hideous monsters the human race has ever produced. Despite our disagreements I would never stoop that low. You’ve taken the discussion beyond the point where it’s really redeemable. And don’t point your finger at me again and make accusations for which you have no evidence to back them up.
Your restraint is admirable. KF unfortunately is utterly impervious to reason. Luckily, the ID movement has lost its momentum and is no longer the danger to freedom it once was. I am fortunate to be a continent away from this and have never needed to take "Intelligent Design" or its proponents seriously. That the ID emperor is wearing no clothes is pretty clear from the posts and comments on this site. I think the time useful dialogue can be resumed is when someone has a positive testable hypothesis of "Intelligent Design". Until then, I think watchful waiting is in order.Alan Fox
September 21, 2013
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it boils down to an abandonment of reason, in the form of an intelligent, responsible thinker free to learn, warrant, know, decide and draw implications and inferences on the basis of first principles of right reason.
What is at stake here is whether these capacities are only intelligible in terms of "the architectural features of reason as traditionally construed," or whether the more modest conception of reason that is consistent with naturalism can provide a sufficient account of our rational capacities. This next point is of the utmost importance: a Platonic-Aristotelian conception of our rational capacities is incompatible with an Epicurean conception of nature. In that respect I completely agree with the objections constantly raised by Kairosfocus, WJM, StephenB, Timaeus, nullasalus, and other philosophically sophisticated critics of naturalism. (I would very much hope that I never came across as anything other than agreeing on that point!) Where I have been disagreeing is whether we ought to be committed to those particular conceptions of those general concepts. For my view is that a more modest, generally Kantian/post-Kantian conception of reason is compatible with an emergentist, dynamic, quasi-teleological conception of nature.Kantian Naturalist
September 21, 2013
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Well well well, what have we here then? Over 600 posts, many of the fruitiest nature. Not to tar all with the same brush of course, but the over-riding motto seems to be: "If it cannot be said with flowers, let it be said with half-bricks." Don't get me wrong mind, it has been most informative and there are some interesting arguments. However, my old Pater used to say to me "Boy, listen to what a man does, not simply to what he says." And by Jove he was on to something. I know that I am not over-furnished in the brain department, but if you would you suffer me to make an observation, good denizens of UD. I have read enough learned comments here to know that all here are brimming over with scientific knowledge. There are so many little grey cells being used that one thinks even Hercule Poirot would be sweating if he popped his head in here. Did it strike anyone else as peculiar, that the two most commented on threads are not concerned with particularly science-y issues. This thread for instance is excellent for sure, but is - how can I put this diplomatically - heavily weighted on the ideological. The other thread (about 160,000 initiation machines) started out on a promising scientific route, but spiraled like a one-winged plane into a ding-dong about abortion in less than 5 posts. Please don't misunderstand me, I am the first to admit that many topics are important and riveting and they don't have to be science. On the other hand, science seems to lace these arguments in the fashion of King Richard I's battleaxe. Richard's axe added much weight to his arguments and was just the ticket to stove in the infidels head. Of course, if history is our guide, then it shouldn't be all that surprising. Whatever has been considered as True Knowledge has always been employed to furnish proof for one ideology over the next. Take Catholicism and Protestantism. Both employed the True Knowledge of the Bible as a bludgeon against the other. And when each side refused to see the others point of view, they understandably reverted to the more Christ-like approach of killing each other. Rummy thing really, that religion is the thing that gave God a bad name. Mind you, religion can't be blamed for everything. Ideology is the watchword. The American Civil War wasn't fundamentally religious but political. Although, one suspects that religion managed to get in on the act as a means to verify one sides opinion over the other. The coercion of Knowledge again you see. If we are not careful, Science will suffer the same end. Science of course, is not ideological at all. But Scientists...aha! that is a different matter. Each one has a particular fancy. And it is my experience that this fancy is the ace of trumps all too often. If though we simply speak of the science with one another, and acknowledge our own angles, rather than calling others dishonest; ignorant; fallacious; propagandists; silly; anti-science and a whole host of beautifully colourful adjectives, then a fair deal of progress could be made what? Are there those who would silence ID for political or religious concerns? Undoubtedly. I have read and heard from them in person. Are there those who would try to use Science to establish God n the classroom? You betcha. Should we presume the agenda of those speaking here who hold a different interpretation of the facts to ourselves. No way Jose. All that comes of this is the Protestant reformation and a fragmenting of beliefs. Should consensus be championed as the de facto winning hand? That would be inviting a Catholic stranglehold again. (Incidentally the words catholic and consensus can mean the same thing.) May I leave things on a lighter note, which may illustrate all my waffling far better than I have been able to so far. Shortly after being married, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert had a bit of a lovers tiff. Albert pulled up his socks and marched into his study, locking the door behind him. Victoria was having none of it though. She had just been warming up and intended to finish matters off. She tramped to his study and bashed the door energetically. "Who's there?" said Albert "The Queen of England" came the rasping reply, "and she demands entrance." There was silence. Albert wasn't coming out. BANG BANG BANG on the door. "Who's there?" "The Queen of England and We demand entrance." After a prolonged silence, the was a gentle tapping at the door again. "Who is there?" said Albert once more. "Your wife." said a soft voice, "Do you think we could talk?" And the door opened instantly. Perhaps, instead of throwing the weight of Science around as if it is a God casting thunderbolts on the stupidity of other, we could tap gently and ask if we our fellow 'if we could talk' as equals. I beg pardon if this sounds condescending. If it does then I as readily repent as ever I dd commit. You guys are far above me in understanding, I assure you, and I enjoy listening to you all. Perhaps, occasionally we all sometimes fail to listen to each other. Just my ha'penny worth.Ho-De-Ho
September 21, 2013
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F/N: I am thinking that a good lesson from history can be had from reading the Wikipedia -- yes! sometimes Wiki gets things reasonably right when it is not a hot button issue subject to the radicals and their games . . . I bet they don't know about this issue and its relevance to our time -- article on the kulturkampf under Bismark. Then, reflect in its light on what we see going on around us. I think you will see some of why I am taking so stringent a stance regarding the promotion of slander and fear-laced hostility expressing itself in conspiracy theories emanating from or enabled by those who should know better. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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I see Jerad is refusing to learn from painful history (including implications of the Bolshevik coup of October 1917 which overthrew Kerensky’s relatively moderate socialists as well as from the implications of a major classic of turnabout propaganda tactics], is dismissing the mass blood-guilt implications of 53+ million abortions in the US alone since 1973 (with an unbelievably horrific global total), and thinks that using complex question tactics that by embedded suggestions and assumptions taint the target, one is innocent of ad hominems. Sad.
Actually I was just pointing out the scare tactics you are using. People can read your posts and decide for themselves if they hold water. But I'd like to highlight how histrionic your comments are becoming. At least you didn't post any pictures this time. For all you know some of my relatives died in the Nazi death camps. For all you know some of my progenitors gave their lives defending the world against Fascism. None of that matters to you. You just attack and attack and attack. I would never, ever liken you to people I consider some of the most hideous monsters the human race has ever produced. Despite our disagreements I would never stoop that low. You've taken the discussion beyond the point where it's really redeemable. And don't point your finger at me again and make accusations for which you have no evidence to back them up. Once again: I have no affiliation with TSZ or AtBC. I do not and have not associated with any commenters or posters on those sites except on this forum. I am here on my own. I thought there was a chance to have some civilised dialogue but it seems that time has now passed. And no one from UD seems to bemoan that fact. And so it goes.Jerad
September 21, 2013
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Oh yes, did Jerad study the kulturkampf under Bismark that -- targetting Catholics (actually going to the extreme of gaoling or exiling Bishops!) and Poles as a discriminated against underclass and also pushing secularisation whilst appealing to Protestant prejudices and fears -- even after a three steps forward, two back "compromise" helped set the stage for Germany at turn of C20 and onwards to mid C20? Do you see why speaking of ruthless cultural pushes as are ongoing in such terms can be highly relevant? I hope we can also learn from that bit of history lest we repeat grave blunders and wrongs. I should note, I am a Protestant.kairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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I see Jerad is refusing to learn from painful history (including implications of the Bolshevik coup of October 1917 which overthrew Kerensky's relatively moderate socialists as well as from the implications of a major classic of turnabout propaganda tactics], is dismissing the mass blood-guilt implications of 53+ million abortions in the US alone since 1973 (with an unbelievably horrific global total), and thinks that using complex question tactics that by embedded suggestions and assumptions taint the target, one is innocent of ad hominems. Sad.kairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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By later on p 21 we are analogising to epistemology on the idea of "it works" put in fancier terms, leading to relativisation on descriptive ethics and a strange allusion to testing ethics as statistical hyps, as we go through p 22. What is is patently not equal to what ought to be, and oughtness is a foundational issue in ethics. There is an attempt to turn about the issue of the emerging relativism by suggesting that objectivity in ethics is a power ploy. Strange, the cry for justice is characteristic cry of the powerless and a restraint on the powerful. The challenge of finding out what is really right or good is dismissed. In short, we are back at radical relativism as the end point (implied directly in the start point) of an attempted ethical scheme that does not start from an essentially good IS capable of grounding ought. The pattern hinted at in the opening is carrying through. Unless something drastic corrects this, which is unlikely, we have a fail, one that would leave my ancestors in chains.kairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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Now, I am about to “violate” the so-called Godwin’s Law, which is too often little more than a sophomoric “shut up” quip. I do so as if we cannot learn from destructive history we may well be doomed to repeat it. In this case, whether or not you know it [and probably you indirectly got it from that utterly cynical subversive Alinsky whose demonic influence has spread far and wide in our civilisation], you are using one of Hitler’s favourite propaganda tactics, the turnabout accusation. I would say, in the grand scale as well as the narrow.
We find there an outright accusation of mass conspiracy to commit grand treason against the states of our civilisation, blanket spread across the whole design movement equated to Creationists and thus onwards Christians. Christians, evidently, are the new stab- in- the- back devils in the flesh, scapegoated for our civilisation’s woes. Scapegoated here in a context of slanders, smears, false accusations, unspeakable bigotry, career busting and censorship. With a live case in view at Ball State University (BSU) as we speak.
And, it is quite patent that we see here a kulturkampf, a cultural civil war, one in which theists and particularly Christians are routinely being marginalised, smeared, slandered as traitors and betrayers, stereotyped and scapegoated . . . and now increasingly oppressed. One in which the most ruthless propaganda techniques are often called into play by the cynically calculating, and are carried far and wide in a conflagration of hostility and bigotry by those who should know better and do better but don’t.
I am simply pointing out what an informed strategic reading of such informed by strategic marketing says, in an obvious kulturkampf agitprop astroturfing ruthless public relations context. Don’t forget I cut my eyeteeth on dealing with the past masters of fronts that made use of what they called “useful idiots” — I here quote Lenin. What your attempted turnabout above is really about is that you have as usual twisted the evidence into pretzels and have then dismissed it, not that it is not there and not that it was not presented. We were not born yesterday, after all. You may have originally THOUGHT you were setting up a decent civil forum to discuss on merits [how many idealists have done that then allowed in subversives then found the situation out of control? If you doubt me just ask Kerensky’s ghost on the Bolshevik coup of “October” 1917 after the February revolution. having set up a vulnerable front, you have ended up with — predictably given the way you set it up — a platform that projects hate, bigotry and slander stemming from deep rooted animosity and coming from people with agendas that are blatantly utterly toxic and ruthless. And that is on the charitable assumption, I do not have enough evidence to decide that you are definitively a cynically and cleverly calculated agitator and propagandist in your own right. My sense is that you are much more likely to be a go along get along good cop who will not confront the wrongs of his or her colleagues, ending up as an enabler of evil. Whether you are willing to admit it to yourself or not, you are running a front operation for some very ruthless power games resting on slander and sobering false accusations, as I just explained in details. You are now under a test, to see if you will wake up before it is too late. KF
At least he gives you the out of being too weak and/or stupid to know what's going on. And I guess you're comparable to Communists too.
Jerad: You are acting as a pale echo and sidekick to EL in a programmed pattern of talking points. Your obvious singing off the same hymn sheet says that you are a talking point parrot. And BTW, as I just noted to EL, I did not invent the historical parallel on the turnabout propaganda tactic, Herr Hitler and Dr Goebbels did. if we refuse to learn from such horrific history, we will be doomed to repeat it — the fatal flaw in the so called Godwin’s Law and its common sophomoric shut up rhetorical usage.
It could just be that Dr Liddle and I (who have never met nor conversed outside of this forum) just generally agree. So, it's okay to compare people to Nazi's if you think it's accurate? Even if some of your data is misinterpretations and conspiracy laden?
And Jerad, did you so soon forget what you tried to do on the UD glossary page?
Let me see . . . oh yes I remember. I suggested that using the glossary as a resource would be a good idea and that frequent commenters at UD should check and make sure it's in general agreement with their views. Pretty subversive stuff but, you know, sometimes you just have to cut to the bone.
And this is in a context where just in the USA over a generation this sort of might and manipulation makes 'right' anti-ethics has cost 53+ million unborn children their lives (and many more globally) in a holocaust that dwarfs that of Hitler.
Any more comparisons? Attila the Hun perhaps?Jerad
September 21, 2013
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KN: I will respond in more detail, but you should advert to the onlooking public that by p.20, the second page we read:
"contemporary mind science has no place for a faculty with the architectural features of reason as traditionally construed." [Flanagan, O: "Ethics Naturalized," in Mind and Morals, ed May et al, MIT press 1996.]
I can say right out that t5his may be plausible within pomo thought, but it boils down to an abandonment of reason, in the form of an intelligent, responsible thinker free to learn, warrant, know, decide and draw implications and inferences on the basis of first principles of right reason, i.e. it is a manifestation of exactly the concerns of reduction to self referential absurdity I have pointed out in the company of a great many others. if reason is dead, why should we have any respect for Mr Flanagan's arguments which presumably seek to warrant his claims on ethics? And of course with reason would collapse anything deserving the name, ethics. (Which he hints at on the first page, e.g. when he contrasts the Greek concept of shame/honour -- which here can easily become radically relativist as Plato hints at in a familiar passage when he contrasts conceptions of what is honourable -- with the ethical ought and suggests a dismissal of ought as having too much of the shadow of "religious transcendentalism" i.e. God as the foundational IS who grounds OUGHT.) So, right from the opening, it looks to me that reason and morality being abandoned, we are going to play at redefinitions in a radically relativist pomo world. One that leads us straight back to might plus manipulation make 'right.' If these hints are right, we have a fail stumbling out the starting gates. I will of course follow up and adjust in light of evidence, but the first results are pointing down the road I just outlined. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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PS: Too much of the reaction from evolutionary materialist advocates above boils down to how dare you hit back first, we have a right -- what's a right and on evo mat grounds how can it be founded? [hint: a right is a binding moral claim rooted in one's inherent dignity as a human being . . . what dignity does a bit of accidental detritus thrown up by a blind cosmos have, and apart form might or manipulation how can such appeal to a right? Thence absurdity . . . ) -- to run, enable and participate in hate- and slander- fests (to challenge such is a "phoney war" reflective of "paranoia" in the latest talking point). Sadly revealing.kairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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there is a substantial challenge to ground the very principle of ought that EL et al have been using, on their evo mat premises. So let us ask such if ought is real and binding. If so, what grounds it relative to their evo mat premises?
Challenge: accepted (PDF).Kantian Naturalist
September 21, 2013
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F/N: Interesting to see a toxic smokescreen distractor then a dodging out once there is a substantial challenge to ground the very principle of ought that EL et al have been using, on their evo mat premises. So let us ask such if ought is real and binding. If so, what grounds it relative to their evo mat premises? (There are of course none as the linked will show, but that highlights that evo mat is grossly inadequate as a worldview (being inherently amoral) and dangerous as a basis for a cultural agenda.) If not, why then do you go around in a high dudgeon trying to show others in violation of ought? Would not this be a manifestation of the most cynical incoherence and/or propagandistic manipulation? KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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EL: What is most revealing to the astute observer this morning, is how you are studiously ignoring the substantial challenge faced by evolutionary materialism on grounding morality reflected in a sounder form of the ethics and rape case and summed up at 622, in a game to try to project accusations while refusing to face and deal with the fact of your hosting a blog, TSZ that is now featuring a hate and slander fest spinning grotesque conspiracy theories and accusations tantamount to accusations of treason without anything near adequate warrant, even while live censorship is ongoing at BSU. It more and more underscores the issue of willful enabling behaviour. And no, I will not take your latest red herring strawman bait, as you know I have plainly stated that empty rhetoric is wrong and useless for those standing on the merits. Whodunit is of no matter. Where the subtext of false and toxic accusations in the line of does X oppose Y, on case Z, shows the real game: have you stopped beating your wife yet. (As in a repeated fallacy of a loaded, toxically complex question reflective of projection. All manifesting refusal to squarely deal with the ongoing slander fest at your blog. All of which manifests a turnabout alleged immoral equivalency accusation, as I have had to repeatedly point out.) In turn, this looks more and more like a might and manipulation make 'right' game coming from advocates of evolutionary materialism. Which from Plato on, has been noted for that problem, and for its tendency to ruthless factions. And of course all along it is now a full year that you and your ilk have refused to answer a challenge to settle the matter by providing warrant for your blind watchmaker thesis on OOL and OO body plans, observationally backed warrant. It remains the case that FSCO/I manifest in codes, algorithms and execution machinery has one observed and analytically plausible cause: design. But it seems that straightforward inductive reasoning on public facts cuts across entrenched ideology so every dirty stratagem is in play to cloud, poison and polarise the atmosphere. Hence the grotesque slanders and censorship you and ilk are enabling. Sad, but plain for all willing to see. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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The paranoia is both damaging and unfounded. I suggest we call a truce in this “phoney war”.
I don't know about a 'truce,' but the phoney war can certainly be ignored from now on.
If anyone wants me, I’ll be at TSZ.
Likewise.Kantian Naturalist
September 21, 2013
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Anyhoo. I'm glad to see that some UD regulars on this thread neither approve the propaganda, nor indulge in the hypocritical condemnation of alleged tactics that are openly approved of and indulged in by their own side. TSZ is not a "front" for anything. It is a blog where people can discuss things. I am not "enabling" slander. I am enabling discussion. I am not "silencing" anyone. In fact I refuse to silence even those with whom I disagree. Nothing alleged to be "slander" on my site even approaches the stuff in this thread, including the comparison of me to Goebbels, nor the fears that there is a conspiracy on the "other side" to do destroy all that we hold dear. The paranoia is both damaging and unfounded. I suggest we call a truce in this "phoney war". If anyone wants me, I'll be at TSZ. Cheers LizzieElizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Hey, that Dembski thread is a goldmine. Here's Dembski again:
Let me suggest you all read your Old Testament — Elijah taunting the prophets of Baal (and then, oh my, killling them); Micaiah the prophet telling Ahab the king to look forward to his coming death; and Jehu’s respectful treatment of Queen Jezebel (throwing her out a window and letting the dogs lap up her blood). And then in the New Testament we find Paul wishing that certain Judaizers didn’t just circumcise themselves but would go the whole way and castrate themselves. I see the JJSchLaw as an instrument of grace to bring Dawkins and others to their senses (if such a thing were possible). What have you done lately, dopderbeck, to jar Dawkins out of his dogmatic rampage?
Right out of the Alinsky-ite playbook, I would say.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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It would be interesting to know what KF thinks of William Dembski's take on graphics and ridicule as a tactic:
Just to be clear, my aim in this flash animation was not to shake up the convictions of convinced Darwinists. Rather, my aim was to render Judge Jones and his decision ridiculous in the eyes of many young people, who from here on will never take Darwinian evolution or him seriously.
So it's OK to use graphics to render your opponents ridiculous in the eyes of young people, is it, KF? Or isn't it? Or is it only OK when your own side does it?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 21, 2013
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Alan, here they are: Dawkins and Dennett.Box
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