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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
While the photoshopping of William's memes onto pictures of well-known atheists tops (bottoms?) Dembski's fart animation. By quite a long way, I'd say. The animation had the virtue of being a little bit amusing.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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You are probably right, Jerad. But we seem to have flushed out some fairly revealing posts in the process. Time perhaps to back slowly away…
Without making too many threatening moves . . .Jerad
September 20, 2013
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More feigned naivete. Like you don’t know how advertising and politics work.
I know how it works. I know how it can manipulate people, how it can stir up a frenzy, how it can inflame misunderstanding, how it can use people. You are a user. No matter what I think about your other beliefs I cannot accept your wilful attempts at treating much of the rest of humanity as your pawns. You gleefully and openly admit that winning, on your terms, is everything.
It has nothing to do with what any atheist or Darwinist actually believes; it’s about what beliefs are rationally necessary as a consequence of the premise. Most people have little in the way of logical skills thanks to our postmodern media and academia. Arguing logically with most people is like speaking a different language; they don’t comprehend what you’re saying. Not their fault – that’s how they’ve been conditioned. My point is that ID ists should capitalize on that conditioning for the time being – at least until more than a handful of people know what a “first principle” is, or realize that their beliefs should be rationally reconcilable with their fundamental premises.
Please note onlookers that William thinks that ID-ists should capitalise on the general publics' inability to think logically and critically. KF, Mung, Axel, Denyse, Box,Sal, Grenville: do you agree with this sentiment? Is this something that UD is proud to support and stand behind?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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You are probably right, Jerad. But we seem to have flushed out some fairly revealing posts in the process. Time perhaps to back slowly away...Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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William
More hand-waving nonsense on your part. There’s a difference between data and how one interprets the data, what models one uses to interpret the data, and what ideological biases and assumptions might be present that drive inferences to conclusions. I don’t argue the data, only how it is presented and used in an argument.
The only person handwaving around here is you. What you call "interpret[ing] the data" is the fitting of mathematical models to that data, and evaluating, statistically, the goodness of fit. The problem here, William, is that not only do you not understand the math, you do not even understand the role of the math. You seem to think, as I've said before, that science involves staring at data and dreaming up some story they like about it, and publishing that "interpretation", which you can then critique for logic. That's not how it works. I suggest you find out how it works before you attempt to critique it. And was that little photoshop effort yours? It seems to have your meme on it, and the only source I can find is your propaganda post. Or perhaps Box did it. Interesting.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Jerad, I think he’s referring to DaveHooke’s post on the Chalcedon foundation. He seems to have missed my own contribution to that thread.
It's hard to tell the innuendo from the accusations from the misinterpretations!! I don't know about you but I'm thinking our efforts here seem to be fanning the fires.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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How I come to my beliefs is irrelevant to whether or not my beliefs are true, or can be defended as true.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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EL:
Scientific arguments are logical arguments, William.
More hand-waving nonsense on your part. There's a difference between data and how one interprets the data, what models one uses to interpret the data, and what ideological biases and assumptions might be present that drive inferences to conclusions. I don't argue the data, only how it is presented and used in an argument.
The logic lies in the math.
ROFL. No, the math might provide evidence that supports a logically constructed argument, but the logic isn't "in" the math. Jerad:
While I find your honesty refreshing I find you cynicism and elitism appalling.
More feigned naivete. Like you don't know how advertising and politics work.
No data? No evidence? Just propaganda?
It has nothing to do with what any atheist or Darwinist actually believes; it's about what beliefs are rationally necessary as a consequence of the premise. Most people have little in the way of logical skills thanks to our postmodern media and academia. Arguing logically with most people is like speaking a different language; they don't comprehend what you're saying. Not their fault - that's how they've been conditioned. My point is that ID ists should capitalize on that conditioning for the time being - at least until more than a handful of people know what a "first principle" is, or realize that their beliefs should be rationally reconcilable with their fundamental premises.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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And yet calls me a liar when I infer therefore that he does not base his beliefs on what he thinks is true.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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I have said that I choose my beliefs based on their utility to my purposes or goals and made no comment about beliefs in general other than to say that IMO most people do not choose their beliefs, and for those that do, most do not choose them rationally.
Is he serious? And who is taking him seriously? KF, can you really endorse someone who chooses their beliefs based on their utility to their purposes or goals?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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I wonder why some object to Murray’s meme about rape. Daniel C. Dennett unequivocally refuses to condemn rape on the basis of evolutionary theory.
You might enjoy the other photoshopped image on that site too, Box. I'd suspect William, but William can usually spell.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Jerad, I think he's referring to DaveHooke's post on the Chalcedon foundation. He seems to have missed my own contribution to that thread.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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But we can note the significance of the attempt to pretend that wanton mass accusation of fraud and conspiracy without basis, and in the teeth of a cogent reply that is persistently ignored.
After many attempts I think this 'sentence' might actually make sense. But I'm still thinking.
In short, AF you are one of our good cop enablers working with the bad cops so all are in reality bad cops, AGAIN. The difference is last time around it was one person, but now it is all of us. AF obviously has no shame to enable bigotry. KF
Bigotry? WHAT??? You really need to take a break and read some of the stuff you've written.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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Box: will you please provide a citation for that quotation. I notice that the photoshopper can't even spell.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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NONE are challenging the conspiracy theory, all are singing off the same hymn sheet that it is design thinkers who are blameworthy. The accusations — and notice no sound substantiation when correction was put (and a repeated tip toe-game around it) are simply no worse than what ID people around UD routinely do. Which is simply not so.
"NONE are challenging the conspiracy theory"? We've been telling you time and time again that there is no conspiracy!! Are you so convinced of your point of view that you can just deny clearly visible events?
This off the same sheet is the signature of indoctrination in a party-line and its talking points and tactics. And especially where it is enabling and distracting from serious wrongdoing. And false accusation of a whole movement of fraud and subversion to impose totalitarian tyranny is serious wrongdoing. Imposing censorship in a uni which is supposedly a bastion of academic freedom is likewise soberingly wrong. Look above for a single clear repudiation from the objectors to ID. You will find none.
I must admit a certain kind of anthropological fascination which this kind of ideology. In fact, it's so far removed from what's obviously been happening that I'm no longer taking it personally or seriously. It doesn't really matter what Dr Liddle or Kantian Naturalist or I say, it's all just ATTENTION which feeds the fire of the indignant righteousness. Fascinating. Please, continue.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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Also, there is a difference between the inane sophistry you spout (that, thankfully, most of the public is immune to) and using broad-brush memes with easily-understood, traditional concept and imageery to effectively market an idea to the public.
While I find your honesty refreshing I find you cynicism and elitism appalling.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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I wonder why some object to Murray's meme about rape. Daniel C. Dennett unequivocally refuses to condemn rape on the basis of evolutionary theory.Box
September 20, 2013
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KN:
We can take for granted that everyone accepts in practice objective truth, in the sufficiently innocent sense that if I ask you, “is the door closed?”, I am not asking for your opinion, but for your report on the fact of the matter — whether or not the door is closed, and “the door is closed” is objectively true if the door is closed, and objectively false if it is not. Call this “anodyne objectivity”.
Anodyne objectivity seems a bit boring. It would also appear to be irrelevant to discussion on what someone ought to care about or not. Why don't you tell me about why, objectively speaking, William ought to close the door?
(1) is there a sense of “objective truth” more demanding or substantive than anodyne objectivity?;
Yes.
(2) do science, philosophy, logic and mathematics, and ethics require anything more than anodyne objectivity
Yes.
(3) do we need to include any supernatural persons as supreme arbiters of truth in order to adequately account for anodyne objectivity or for whatever more demanding account of objective truth we end up with, if the answers to (1) and (2) are “yes”?
Supernatural? Not necessarily. Transcendent? Absolutely.Phinehas
September 20, 2013
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And other paradoxes/ mysteries are also ignored by your people, as if best kept for a rainy day some time in the distant future; such as decisions made for the trajectory of a photon, after an event, determining its trajectory at the outset, before it began its trajectory! Also, the fact referred to by another of your leading lights, that establishing the age of the earth can only be partially significant, since QM indicates it might be less than a nanosecond old to the individual. Also that it has now been proved that when a person ceases to see the world, insofar, the world ceases to exist.
I think you'll find that physicists really enjoy examining seeming contradictions in our knowledge. But you'd have to bone up on a lot of modern physics to get that. ' . . it has now been proven that when a person ceases to see the world, insofar, the world ceases to exist.' Who said that? Are you just making things up or do you have some references for your statements? It all sounds like goobldy-gook to me.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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You stress repeatedly that you accept that the rules of QM are ‘strict and limited’, nevertheless, none of you, as far as I’m aware have explicitly conceded that experiments with photon entanglement indicate unambiguously that their origin is supernatural, i.e. non-local, outside our reference frame of space-time.
Their origin is supernatural? What? Are you serious? 'Outside our reference frame of space-time'? Do you mean 'outside our inertial frame of reference'? You're not making a lot of scientific sense here.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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William
Except that I have told you that it is not, and I have repeatedly told you in the past that I do not make arguments about the science, but about the logic.
Scientific arguments are logical arguments, William. If you do not understand the logic used in the arguments, you cannot argue about "the logic". And yo freely agree that you do not understand the math. The logic lies in the math. You are starting to sound like JoeG and his refutation of Cantor.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Just because Darwinists might hold other views about rape that are not reconcilable with their fundamental premise of Darwinism doesn’t change the logical necessity of what “rape” must be under the Darwinist premise, and so my propaganda meme is true enough for its intended use.
MIGHT hold other beliefs. That's good enough? If your versions of what you think 'Darwinists' (whatever you mean by that) might think is something worth arguing against (and assigning to them) then it's okay to bring it up? No data? No evidence? Just propaganda?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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Brent:
WJM pointing out that “Darwinism” doesn’t condemn — can’t condemn — rape.
But honest and intelligent people can disagree on whether the deduction is valid. In this case I would argue strongly that it is not. If you want an example of logical deduction that has a correct answer (that can be determined empirically), but which has had expert logicians and mathematicians bitterly arguing, look no further than the Monty Hall problem. A chain of reasoning can look inviolable, yet be wrong. Beware of thinking that because something looks valid, that it is.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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There is no means by which to construct a methodology without an ideology of some sort, whether one realizes they are employing an ideology or not. If one sees something happening in the world, they may wonder “why did that happen”, but even that rudimentary concept that there was some cause to the effect is a belief in cause and effect, which is itself ideological in nature.
To me, science is the system of discovering aspects of reality that can be measured, defined, spelt out, examined and repeated. I don't see an ideology in that. Just an agreement that if we can't quantify it then it might not be science. Science doesn't try to answer everything. It doesn't attempt to address everything. It's not a philosophy or belief. It's an agreed upon set of procedures by which we attempt to define certain aspects of the way the universe behaves. Lots of 'truths' are not able to be examined by science. Science is limited. But because it is limited certain other ways of examining the universe are not part of science. I can understand your objections to the severe reductionist brand of science that attempts to simplify everything to physics. But there's no harm in letting those who hypothesis such things have a go at trying to prove it. Their attempts don't change the true nature of reality. And, they sometimes do shed some light on some aspects of nature that were obscure and perplexing. Shouldn't we pursue the true nature of reality in as many ways as we can? Especially since our limited understanding doesn't change what is true, only the way we perceive it?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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No, it is not. My job as a propagandist is to simply sway public opinion, whether what I say is misleading or not.
And there you have it. Opinion trumps truth. Apparently. You might know the truth but if it doesn't set you free then jettison it. For the greater good?Jerad
September 20, 2013
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Deductive truths do not need to be persuasive. Some truths are necessarily the case, end of story. It is this type of truth that is routinely shown to ID opponents, but they refuse to accept, e.g. WJM pointing out that "Darwinism" doesn't condemn --- can't condemn --- rape. If the naturalist, materialist paradigm is true, there is no way to reason to an objective morality, which is why that paradigm should be rejected. Instead, the naturalist/materialist/atheist says, "I don't accept that. I don't believe rape is okay. So you are wrong." But, obviously, this isn't addressing the issue. I don't care what you say you believe when certain facts follow necessarily from other of your beliefs. You are forced to rationally reject one or the other. It's like saying, "I want to eat toast so don't tell me I necessarily have to have bread!" You can say anything you want, and usually do, but you don't get to get a free pass for just saying it, it has to be rational. Sorry 'bout that.Brent
September 20, 2013
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You forgot to tell me what gives you the right, under your conceptual framework, to tell me that what I believe to be true is false, under both our conceptual frameworks? What principle justifies such a claim? From what you wrote, it appears to be the principle of "having read countless books and articles". Or perhaps just "reading books KN has offered that disagree with my view"? If I don't read those books, then it necessarily follows that I am not committed to "knowing" if my beliefs are "actually" true or not? Perhaps even more substantively, do you believe it is possible to "know" if one's beliefs are true or not?William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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In re: 541
So let me ask you, under your conceptual framework, what gives you the right to assert that something I believe to be true, under my conceptual framework, is false? Is it necessarily false in both of our conceptual frameworks? Wouldn’t you have to know how I evaluate the difference between true and false statements, and by what arbiting method, in order to assert that under my conceptual framework, those things are false?
The inferential linkages between concepts aren't constituted by whim or feeling; they are constituted by relations of compatibility and incompatibility, and that isn't up to us. When we argue about the meaning of "Darwinism" or "atheism," we are arguing about what logically and materially follows from those concepts -- whether or not one would be irrational in affirming one proposition and denying another. Now, it is true, and unfortunate, that there are moments or periods in human life where the conflicts are so deep that communication entirely breaks down -- where there's not even the possibility of apprehending the other person as a fellow inhabitant of the space of reasons, motivated by the desire to avoid irrationality. That's the point at which dialogue becomes impossible and conflict, if it persists, can leads to war.
Or are you claiming that there exists something outside of conceptual frameworks that arbits true from false that we are both obligated to refer to whether we agree with it or not?
Yes, that would be something I like to call "reality" or "the world."
Or are you just saying that what I say is false in your conceptual framework, but may be true in my conceptual framework?
Firstly, I don't think that each individual person has his or her own unique conceptual framework. I think that conceptual frameworks are fundamentally shared or social, and that there can't be a wholly private conceptual framework any more than there can be a wholly private language. It's the conceptual framework held in common that permits communication. So the very fact that we're communicating, though with some difficulty, tells me that our disagreements take place against a shared background, and the conceptual framework lurks (mostly) in that background. Sometimes there are profound and incommensurable conflicts between different conceptual frameworks, but I regard that as pretty rare. Secondly, I don't think that any conceptual framework is static; all conceptual frameworks are dynamic in response to experience of reality, to discourse about that experience, and sometimes, to meeting the challenges posed by competing frameworks.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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Looks like “the science part” to me.
Except that I have told you that it is not, and I have repeatedly told you in the past that I do not make arguments about the science, but about the logic. The idea that random and natural forces **can** generate complex, interdependent, sophisticated machinery with manufacturing and regulatory code is only supportable if one has a discerning metric; you've already agreed that there is no such metric. You have already agreed that such processes cannot be vetted as "natural" or "random" or "chance". It is a **stupid** argument to claim random, chance & natural forces capable of generating such phenomena when those making the claim admit there is no discerning metric to evaluate the claim by. There is no basis for such a claim. It cannot be anything other than ideology.
But it does mean that there are powerful counter arguments to your position.
Just because they exist in literature doesn't mean they are "powerful", whatever that's supposed to mean.
And I have seen no evidence that you have addressed them anywhere.
They've been addressed far more eloquently and concisely than I can by many philosophers. It's not my job to address that which has already, IMO, been sufficiently addressed.
Atheism is simply lack of belief in god or gods. It is not the set of beliefs you say it is.
Sorry, but atheism has logical consequences that necessarily extend far beyond mere "lack of belief in god", most immediately to first principles and morality. They are rationally inescapable. Putting your blinkers on and ignoring those necessary consequences of premise doesn't make them go away.
If you wrote: atheism, if true, it would mean that….
But that is what my memes are saying. Just in a propagandized manner.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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I'm not saying there is a grand conspiracy, KF. I'm saying that I can see why people think there might be, and to say so is not slander. And, crazy as the truthers and birthers are, they are entitled to their view, and no lawyer would sue them for slander, at least under UK defamation laws, which allow for the defense of "fair comment" - i.e. if the statement is an opinion, rather than a statement of fact.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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