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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
KF, William has just called me a liar. Should I call that slander?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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WJM:
First, you seem to have forgotten what this entire thread is about Liz, and the context surrounding those quotes. Do the words “propaganda” and “marketing” ring a bell? It’s not my job to logically argue for the provable validity of phrases or memes explicitly intended only to serve the purpose of negatively propagandizing the opposition.
It is your job as propagandist not to be misleading. And so it is most certainly your job to be able to explain what you mean by "Darwinism" when you characterise it in such offensive terms. If I were to say that: THEISM is the belief that babies are delivered by stork You would be perfectly within your rights to demand that I either gave my idiosyncratic definition of theism, or retracted a false statement. So to say that DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is simply another naturally-selected means of genetic distribution, demands either a relevant definition of Darwinism, or a retraction. Otherwise it is a simple lie.
Second (even though I am under no obligation to support anything I clearly stated was for propaganda use), included in my definition of Darwinism is holding the view that all human traits, actions, thoughts, beliefs, etc., are the result of chance mutations sorted by natural selection as a means, so to speak, of successfully distributing genetic material. That would make any predilection or trait – including rape – nothing more, ultimately, than a naturally occurring (via chance variation) and/or naturally selected means of genetic distribution. Just like courting, humor, brown hair, blue eyes, etc.
Right. Please note, "onlookers", that WJM is using "Darwinism" not to mean "neo-Darwinian synthesis" as defined in the UD glossary but a specific set of beliefs, that he ascribes to some people not otherwise specified, and who may not exist. "Nothing more, ultimately" - I notice the additional weasel word "ultimately" you have inserted there, William. It does not make your assertion any truer. Rape is defined as sex without mutual consent. It is not "nothing more, ultimately" something else, any more than soap is "nothing more, ultimately" than baryons and fermions, or than the DNA is "nothing more than" a string of nucleotides, or the Mona Lisa is "nothing more than" paint molecules. They are all much more than your "nothing more thans". They exist, they are particular, they satisfy specific conditions that are not satisfied merely by "some baryons and fermions". They are patterns of things. They may be made of baryons and fermions but that does not mean that that is all they are. Self-evidently they are a highly specified subset and arrangement of those baryons and fermions. Therefore "baryons and fermions" is a totally inadequate specification. You need to supply something more.
Just because Darwinists might hold other views about rape that are not reconcilable with their fundamental premise of Darwinism doesn’t change the logical necessity of what “rape” must be under the Darwinist premise, and so my propaganda meme is true enough for its intended use.
On the contrary, it is utter and pernicious nonsense.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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#398 'The rules of quantum mechanics are clear and established and deterministic. From our perspective they may seem strange and ambiguous but they are strict and limited.' What on earth makes you raise the issue of the rules of QM? You stress repeatedly that you accept that the rules of QM are 'strict and limited', nevertheless, none of you, as far as I'm aware have explicitly conceded that experiments with photon entanglement indicate unambiguously that their origin is supernatural, i.e. non-local, outside our reference frame of space-time. And other paradoxes/ mysteries are also ignored by your people, as if best kept for a rainy day some time in the distant future; such as decisions made for the trajectory of a photon, after an event, determining its trajectory at the outset, before it began its trajectory! Also, the fact referred to by another of your leading lights, that establishing the age of the earth can only be partially significant, since QM indicates it might be less than a nanosecond old to the individual. Also that it has now been proved that when a person ceases to see the world, insofar, the world ceases to exist. Also, particles can only be viewed subjectively, which, again, indicates that we each live in a world of our own. Is there not every indication then that we each live in a little world of our own, which however, is matched in a coordinated way with everyone else's. At the atomic level our worlds are not joined seamlessly. Despite QM's unique success as a paradigm, I am not saying that the world viewed from a non-QM perspective is wholly wrong, but it needs to be acknowledged by materialists that it can only be partially correct. We live in a dual reality. The one that science can get a good handle on, even while accepting a QM content that is a priori, not counter-intuitive, but counter-rational, is just part of the picture. It seems to be of the nature of some kind of hologram with additional dimensions invisible to us, wherein we can can test our worldly intelligence as if dealing with a jigsaw puzzle. I say this, as it seems to me more likely that somehow our world would be adjusted so that the absolute speed of light would always be absolute in relation to an Observer travelling in the same direction at constant speed, than that light or the agent controlling it would adjust its speed to compass that purpose. The other world-view, of QM, is and always will be utterly mysterious to the analytical intelligence, while thousands of years of mainstream religious traditions have claimed not without evidential justification that by modifying our moral nature as per Aldous Huxley's eponymous essay, The Perennial Philosophy, such transcendent mysteries become in some measure accessible to what he describes as the 'unitive intelligence'.Axel
September 20, 2013
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EL, it would be laughable if it were not in the end so sad. I have and othere have, time after time on subject after subject for over two years, taken you through the facts, issues, reasoning, proper definitions and more. Predictably, you have twisted us into strawman pretzels, played evasion games, moved goalposts, only admitted correction under extreme pressure, and then sooner or later doubled back to the old talking points again. In this cycle, you will not acknowledge that there is a significant problem of ideological materialism in contemporary science and related areas, which is like saying the sky is blue. To date you have never been able to accurately and fairly characterise what design theory is about and why the design inference is an application of scientific, inductive logic. You are currently hosting at your blog a slander fest that makes up unsubstantiated accusations of fraud, nazi-like totalitarian theocratic conspiracies and more. (Last time around it was the undersigned who was invidiously associated with nazism, now it is everyone a whole movement.) You have stoutly resisted or diverted from or ignored well merited cogent correction every step of the way. You have repeatedly crossed the line to willful continued misrepresentations in the teeth of cogent correction. I suggest you think again and do better, a lot better. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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You are flailing William, and attempting to shift the burden of explanation to me.
Liar. I haven't asked you to explain anything, nor have I implied it is your job to explain what Darwinism means. I have only pointed out the self-conflicting nature of your comments.
It was not my claim, it was yours.
First, you seem to have forgotten what this entire thread is about Liz, and the context surrounding those quotes. Do the words "propaganda" and "marketing" ring a bell? It's not my job to logically argue for the provable validity of phrases or memes explicitly intended only to serve the purpose of negatively propagandizing the opposition. Second (even though I am under no obligation to support anything I clearly stated was for propaganda use), included in my definition of Darwinism is holding the view that all human traits, actions, thoughts, beliefs, etc., are the result of chance mutations sorted by natural selection as a means, so to speak, of successfully distributing genetic material. That would make any predilection or trait - including rape - nothing more, ultimately, than a naturally occurring (via chance variation) and/or naturally selected means of genetic distribution. Just like courting, humor, brown hair, blue eyes, etc. Just because Darwinists might hold other views about rape that are not reconcilable with their fundamental premise of Darwinism doesn't change the logical necessity of what "rape" must be under the Darwinist premise, and so my propaganda meme is true enough for its intended use.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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Jerad, Whether or not a scientist personally adopts the ideology that beget the methodology they are employing doesn't mean the methodology is not constructed according to an ideology. Lots of atheists have used scriptural literalism as a methodology in an attempt disprove its scientific validity; because they used the methodology doesn't mean they shared the ideology, but because they didn't share the ideology of the methodology doesn't mean the methodology wasn't ideological in nature. There is no means by which to construct a methodology without an ideology of some sort, whether one realizes they are employing an ideology or not. If one sees something happening in the world, they may wonder "why did that happen", but even that rudimentary concept that there was some cause to the effect is a belief in cause and effect, which is itself ideological in nature. Then one might wonder, "what being made that happen" and construct a whole methodology of assigning spirits to events; or one might start assigning natural laws to events. Because Liz doesn't understand that her methodology is ideological in nature doesn't change the fact that it is. It must be. There's no way to have a "methodology" without a root framework about "how things should work" to inform your methodological practices, parameters, etc.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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William:
Of course I’m reluctant to give it to you. You’re drowning in your own self-contradicting, doubled-down dishonesty, why should I throw you a lifeline?
I am not contradicting myself, William. I do not know what you mean by "Darwinism". According to the glossary here, it is a specific scientific hypothesis, in which case your assertion is incorrect. So clearly you mean something else. And as no "ism" that I have ever come across is "belief that RAPE is simply another naturally-selected means of genetic distribution" (which would be absurd) it clearly isn't that. Or is it, by your idiosyncratic definition? In which case, can you point to a single "DARWINIST"? You are flailing William, and attempting to shift the burden of explanation to me. It was not my claim, it was yours. The onus is on you to support it. Otherwise it is a disgusting slur on all those who consider the neo-Darwinian synthesis a well-supported scientific theory, or indeed anyone else who qualifies as a "Darwinist" under some other definition.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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William:
Ideology begets methodology, Liz. There’s no other place for a methodology to come from. Methodological naturalism is rooted in the ideological notion that phenomena are available to explanation via “natural” laws that can be discovered and predict it.
That is a working assumption, William, not an ideology. An assumption is not a belief, therefore it is not an ideology. Setting out to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow requires the working assumption that such a pot of gold exists. It does not entail the belief that such a pot of gold exists. Failure to find the pot of gold does not tell us that it does not exist. Finding it, however, tells us that it does. It does not tell us that there are more pots of gold to be found.
Ideology must beget methodology. There is no other place for a methodology to come from, other than from beliefs about what the world is and how it works.
A working assumption is not a belief or an ideology. A hypothesis is not a belief or an ideology.
So yes, any methodology any scientists uses is ideological in nature, whether that scientist shares that ideology or not.
Nope. Not without stretching the definition of "ideology" to the point of uselessness. And specifically, scientific methodology is not based on the ideology of "philosophical naturalism", or as the DI puts it, of "scientific materialism". It simply entails the assumption that there are natural laws to be discovered. A good assumption, it turns out, as we have found rather a lot. It is not based on the ideology that everything is explainable by natural laws. Therefore it is false to say that science is an ideology "that claims that all of reality can be reduced to, or derived from, matter and energy alone." Science does not, and can never, make that claim.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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But I still await William’s definition, which he seems curiously reluctant to give.
Of course I'm reluctant to give it to you. You're drowning in your own self-contradicting, doubled-down dishonesty, why should I throw you a lifeline?William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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There is no requirement that a scientist be a “philosophical naturalist” – in other words, to believe that there is no reality beyond the “natural”. Some are, some are not. Whether one is or isn’t makes no difference to the science.
Like Newton, a strong Christian who did excellent science. And Dr Kenneth Miller. Dr Francis Crick. Dr Michael Behe has done good science that has been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Many, many noteworthy scientists are not philosophical naturalists in their personal beliefs.Jerad
September 20, 2013
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No, it is not, William. Certainly some methodologies are ideological, but science is not. it is not “rooted in a naturalistic ideology”.
Ideology begets methodology, Liz. There's no other place for a methodology to come from. Methodological naturalism is rooted in the ideological notion that phenomena are available to explanation via "natural" laws that can be discovered and predict it. Ideology must beget methodology. There is no other place for a methodology to come from, other than from beliefs about what the world is and how it works. So yes, any methodology any scientists uses is ideological in nature, whether that scientist shares that ideology or not.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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I will concede one thing: "Darwinism", as defined in the ID glossary, is, it turns out, a hypothesis. However, as used by William, it does not appear to be. But I still await William's definition, which he seems curiously reluctant to give.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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William are you going to say what you meant by DARWINISM when you said that:
DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is simply another naturally-selected means of genetic distribution.
or not? Because as sure as eggs is eggs, the scientific theory of neo-Darwinism is not the "belief that RAPE is simply anotehr naturally-selected means of genetic distribution". Nor is any ideology that I have ever met.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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William
Because a thing is a methodology doesn’t mean it isn’t ideological in nature. Starting with the Bible as one’s source of facts and using it to validate or dismiss any finding is a methodology, Liz. That doesn’t mean the methodology isn’t ideological in nature. Naturalism is an ideological view. Methodological naturalism is a methodology rooted in a naturalistic ideology. Nobody is this stupid.
No, it is not, William. Certainly some methodologies are ideological, but science is not. it is not "rooted in a naturalistic ideology". That is why "naturalism" is, in philosphical parlance, subdivided into "philosophical naturalism" and "methodological naturalism". All scientists are methodological naturalists, because they all use the scientific method which makes the working assumption that the world is predictable, and that "natural" laws can be discovered that predict it. There is no requirement that a scientist be a "philosophical naturalist" - in other words, to believe that there is no reality beyond the "natural". Some are, some are not. Whether one is or isn't makes no difference to the science. This is because science is not an ideology. It is simply a method of investigating the world. There are others.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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KF
EL, if you don’t know it is because you refuse to acknowledge the evident truth pointed out to you with substantial examples again and again, and as is evident from much else all around. If you don’t know, you are just as responsible, you full well SHOULD know. Enough. KF
When are you going to learn, KF, that when someone disagrees with you, that does not necessarily mean that they are in ignorance of the the thing you keep telling them is true? It may mean that they disagree with you that it is true. As in this case. My reading of Lewontin's review is that he was saying what is true, which is that the Divine is beyond the power of scientific methodology to detect. If he meant something else, then I believe he is wrong. But I don't think he meant something else. I think the entire force of his argument was that we have moved on from explaining things in terms of supernatural agents (water spirits, sun gods) and on to a method in which the supernatural is excluded. That does not mean that the supernatural is not real. It simply means that it is beyond scientific methodology. This is because scientific methodology is predicated on the assumption that the universe is predictable. That is merely a working assumption - it could be false. But we cannot show that it is false. We can only show that there is some of it that we can predict, and devise models that make good predictions. A supernatural agent makes no predictions, so cannot be part of science. That does not mean that intelligent agencies cannot be inferred. It just means that we cannot infer a supernatural intelligent agency. We can still believe in such an agency, and such an agent could still exist. But science cannot not tell us whether or not it does.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle, doubling down:
I don’t know what “Darwinism” is, and I am not a “Darwinist” “Darwinism” is not a hypothesis. By any definition of Darwinism, or rape, the view that rape is “nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution” is absurd”. By comparison, the claim that Darwinism says that evolutionary theory is sufficient to account for life is only a little bit wrong. And if nobody here thinks that’s what Darwinism says, I’m delighted. Because of course, it would be an invalid claim. I don’t know what you mean by “Darwinism”. I made no claims about “Darwinism” in that post, apart from the fact that it’s not a hypothesis. I haven’t actually made any claims about Darwinism. But under any definition, the claim about rape is absurd.
William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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No it isn’t. It’s a methodology not an ideology.
Because a thing is a methodology doesn't mean it isn't ideological in nature. Starting with the Bible as one's source of facts and using it to validate or dismiss any finding is a methodology, Liz. That doesn't mean the methodology isn't ideological in nature. Naturalism is an ideological view. Methodological naturalism is a methodology rooted in a naturalistic ideology. Nobody is this stupid.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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As I have already pointed out, William, I haven't actually made any claims about Darwinism. But under any definition, the claim about rape is absurd. Are you going to tell us what you meant by the word in that "slogan", or not? If not, I suggest you are an intellectually dishonest shill.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Well, William, tell me what YOU mean by “Darwinism”.
So, after saying you don't know what it is, and making several claims about what it isn't and cannot "under any definition" mean and how things I wrote about what Darwinism means are false (thereby making claims about what it necessarily is and means in contrast)..... then, after I repeatedly point out the ridiculousness of such a series of posts ... .... you finally get around to asking me what I mean by "Darwinism"? IMO, you are clearly an intellectually dishonest shill.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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EL, if you don't know it is because you refuse to acknowledge the evident truth pointed out to you with substantial examples again and again, and as is evident from much else all around. If you don't know, you are just as responsible, you full well SHOULD know. Enough. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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EL, more turnabout tactics. There is a substantial issue on your part that you have given zero indication of willingness to deal with as blog owner of a site currently indulging a fever swamp slander fest. Your response on being corrected? Blame the victim, and keep blaming the victim. Then, when you at length deign to get around to reading the corrective DI has, you duck and dodge the main issue and twist what you cite into pretzels again to further blame the victim, projecting imoral equivalency. I point it out, and lo and behold, I am the hypocrite. FYI, if we had to be all perfect before we could correct, then civilisation would descend into chaos as all that evil needs to triumph is that the fundamentally good though struggling find excuses to stand by and do nothing to make a difference. For instance, do you think I imagine Churchill a perfect man, or the UK of 1940 a perfect country? Do you think that I am blind to the 1,000 year history of Britain as a state founded by pirates [William and co] and practicing invasions and depredations on the rest of the world for centuries, down to today at Chagos Islands? But, I know the difference between what is reformable and what is unmitigated evil, so that is why I celebrate Battle of Britain Sunday and indeed blogged on it right here at UD and in my personal blog. Joe can tell you of the longstanding pattern of back forths between us especially when he slips off the wagon again. But the difference is at least here he seems to be trying. I hope he is trying elsewhere too. And you are of course implying how dare you show moral outrage at being slandered, falsely and maliciously accused, subjected to hate, to scurrilous caricature of photographs, to outing and threatening of uninvolved family including children and more. Sorry, there is a time to stand up stoutly and say STOP. And EL, you are the host for slander and bigotry of the worst kind. STOP. Just, STOP. For all that is decent and holy, STOP!!!!!!!! KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Onlookers: One of the perpetual annoyances in dealing with EL is that she routinely ignores or twists cogent responses into strawman pretzels, and even when forced at length into grudging and calculated admissions, will come back later as if nothing has happened. For instance, she full well knows that we have not distorted Lewontin, that Lewontin was summarising the views of Sagan and most other elite scientists, a group of which he is a mamber, and that the views expressed can be substantiated far and wide.
This is false. I "know" no such thing. I think you have distorted his view. However, whether this is true or not, the fact is that if you think that science is an ideology, you are incorrect. It is not. It is a methodology. It can have nothing to say about the Divine, because the Divine is not detectable by the methodology. That means it can neither detect it nor exclude it.
The views document a serious problem of ideological imp[osition on science of a priori materialism multiplied byt he scientism that — self refutingly — presumes science to be the “only begetter” of knowledge. These views are patently wrong, but they are serious indeed the partyline we deal with. KF
They are an invention, KF, from your fearful imagination.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Could Elizabeth mean something so utterly stupid as equations and machinery and facts having ideology? I hope not. Does she mean something so inane as the idea that the humans who conduct science do not have ideologies? Not likely. Does she think that “methodological naturalism” is not an ideological concept? Surely not.
That last thing, William, that last thing.
One wonders then what Elizabeth can possibly mean by the phrase “there is no ideology built into science”; science itself is a philosophical construct, and so is necessarily ideological in nature.
No it isn't. It's a methodology not an ideology.
Elizabeth’s position on science reminds me of a time when people thought that the news coming from Walter Cronkite or David Brinkley was just objective reporting. No bias. No ideology. Just the facts.
I didn't say that there is no bias in science. There is. That's why so much of scientific methodology is specifically designed to minimise bias. It cannot eliminate it, however. But that doesn't make science an ideology. It isn't.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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LT: You full well know that the issues of the design inference are independent of any religious tradition, tracing to application of basic inductive logic and findings of fact to FSCO/I. In addition, your words are calculated to feed into a scurrilous hate-fest and slander-fest currently in progress and multiplied by a case of censorship in part driven by the slanders in question, so it is evident that you are yet another enabler. You just shot your credibility in the foot. You need to go to the UD WACs and carefully review the first eight or so, though of course you will not do so this time around either. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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There is no ideology built into science.
Could Elizabeth mean something so utterly stupid as equations and machinery and facts having ideology? I hope not. Does she mean something so inane as the idea that the humans who conduct science do not have ideologies? Not likely. Does she think that "methodological naturalism" is not an ideological concept? Surely not. One wonders then what Elizabeth can possibly mean by the phrase "there is no ideology built into science"; science itself is a philosophical construct, and so is necessarily ideological in nature. Elizabeth's position on science reminds me of a time when people thought that the news coming from Walter Cronkite or David Brinkley was just objective reporting. No bias. No ideology. Just the facts.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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KF, does it not occur to you that the reason there are "turnabout accusations" may be because there really is some hypocrisy going on?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Onlookers: One of the perpetual annoyances in dealing with EL is that she routinely ignores or twists cogent responses into strawman pretzels, and even when forced at length into grudging and calculated admissions, will come back later as if nothing has happened. For instance, she full well knows that we have not distorted Lewontin, that Lewontin was summarising the views of Sagan and most other elite scientists, a group of which he is a mamber, and that the views expressed can be substantiated far and wide. The views document a serious problem of ideological imp[osition on science of a priori materialism multiplied byt he scientism that -- self refutingly -- presumes science to be the "only begetter" of knowledge. These views are patently wrong, but they are serious indeed the partyline we deal with. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Well, William, tell me what YOU mean by "Darwinism". According to the UD glossary:
When ID proponents on this site use the term “Darwinism,” they are referring to Neo-Darwinism, also called the modern evolutionary synthesis or Neo-Darwinian evolution (“NDE”), the basic tenants [sic] of which are described in the New World Encyclopedia as follows:
none of which refer to any ideology at all. So why should a scientific theory (the "neo-Darwinian synthesis") have anything to say about what rape is, or is not? Or did you mean something else by "Darwinism"?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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5for @ 479: Brent is doing it all for Jesus, so it's OK. That's the entire point of this thread and UD writ large.LarTanner
September 20, 2013
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From Elizabeth Liddle:
I don’t know what “Darwinism” is, and I am not a “Darwinist” “Darwinism” is not a hypothesis. By any definition of Darwinism, or rape, the view that rape is “nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution” is absurd”. By comparison, the claim that Darwinism says that evolutionary theory is sufficient to account for life is only a little bit wrong. And if nobody here thinks that’s what Darwinism says, I’m delighted. Because of course, it would be an invalid claim.
I don’t know what you mean by “Darwinism”. I made no claims about “Darwinism” in that post, apart from the fact that it’s not a hypothesis.
William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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