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Commenter Apparently Believes that Only Part of Darwinian Evolution is “blind/mindless/unguided.” Maybe, if We Ask Nice, He Will Enlighten Us Poor Benighted ID Slobs About Which Part is “Seeing, Mindful and Guided.”

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In the comment section to a prior post commenters “Joe” and “AVS” are having a tussle over whether Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided.  It is fascinating and instructive.  Let’s see.

First, Joe asked: “How does one test anything wrt unguided evolution?”

To which AVS responded:  “The fact that you call it “unguided evolution” tells me everything I need to know about you. One of those things is that trying to talk to you about science would be like trying to talk to a wall.”

This is an interesting response, because some of the leading Darwinists in the world have noted that evolution is a blind unguided process.  One would have thought that the proposition that Darwinian evolution is unguided was uncontroversial, and Joe responded as by posting the following quotes:

Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic. UCBerkley

Natural selection is the blind watchmaker, blind because it does not see ahead, does not plan consequences, has no purpose in view. Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”?

AVS responds with the inevitable “quote mining” accusation when Darwinists are quoted to support a proposition:  “SO you mash two quotes up from two unrelated people and repeat them completely out of context?”

Joe asks:  “How are the quotes out of context?”

AVS responds to my question about why he believes Joe took the quotes out of context:

I’m saying that evolution has both random, or blind/mindless/unguided processes as Joe here likes to call them, as well as having non-random processes. You need both parts,and it’s the second part that you and your friends here like to ignore apparently.  Maybe you can explain to Joe why he’s so clueless.

In summary:

1.  Joe says that Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, and he quotes, among others, Dawkins, to back that up.

2.  AVS says Joe does not know what he is talking about and that he mined the Dawkins quote.

3.  When asked to demonstrate how the Dawkins quote has been taken out of context, AVS says that evolution is part random and part non-random.

Let’s evaluate AVS’s argument, such as it is:

He asserts that Darwinian evolution has a “random” component and a “non-random” component, and that is true enough.  The random component is the random changes that occur in the genome through, for example, random genetic mutations.  The non-random part is, of course, natural selection, which takes the random changes in the genome and “selects” for those that increase fitness.

Here’s where AVS falls overboard.  He characterizes only the “random” component of Darwinian evolution as “blind, mindless and unguided.”  Apparently, he believes that the non-random component (i.e., natural selection) is not “blind, mindless and unguided.”

But that is just Joe’s point.  BOTH parts of the Darwinian evolution equation are blind, mindless and unguided.  That is Dawkins’ point as well when he says that even natural selection (the non-random part AVS) is blind.  By blind, mindless and unguided, Joe (and Dawkins) mean that Darwinian evolution does not have foresight.  It cannot plan for distant goals.  It has no purpose.  They do not mean that it is entirely random.

To the extent that AVS denies that any part of Darwinian evolution is blind, mindless and unguided, he must mean that some part of it is seeing, mindful and guided.  But that is obviously false.  AVS has mistakenly equated “non-random” with “not blind, mindless and unguided.”

In summary, therefore, AVS owes Joe an apology on two counts:  (1) for falsely accusing him of taking the quotes out of context; and (2) for ridiculing him when he himself is the one who is obviously wrong.

The irony, of course, is that even in his obvious error AVS plays the typical blustering Darwinist – serenely confident in his own intelligence and rectitude even when he is glaringly wrong.  I will leave you with this:  AVS compares his knowledge to Joe’s and says  he, AVS, is the “person who has forgotten more biology” than Joe will ever know.  Pathetic?  Laughable?  Both?  I will let the readers decide.

Comments
* the basis of NSCassie
January 9, 2014
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Joe - You chose an odd example as it doesn't deal with NS, but rather controlled elimination of an infection. So - though over simplified - say you have twins. one is born with a genetic heart defect and the other is not. Now the baby with the defect dies leaving the one without it to live on. Here we would say, the baby with the traits fittest to survive will have a chance to pass on his genes. So you would call this a process of elimination. Fine. But it doesn't change the fact that the combination of genes in the fit baby, enabled that baby to survive. That's the basis on NS.Cassie
January 9, 2014
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KF #130,
the point of differential reproductive success across varieties that is not obviously imposed by an agent, is that it is all after the fact, whoever survives, survives and the unlucky or less fitted get subtracted. That’s an effect not a force despite its clever name.
Surely you agree that environmental factors {e.g. temperature (see #74), lack of oxygen} do have force. However, since these factors are incoherent and undirected, there is no ground to suggest that they are interconnected by naming them ‘natural selection’.Box
January 9, 2014
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On the PBS special "Evolution" they discussed AIDS, along with bacterial infections. With AIDS you have variations- some pils kill some type, some another, etc. However there always seesm to be one very deficient variation left. Deficient in that without the selection pressures from the pills they would be very much the minority and hardly noticeable because they are out competed at every step. But they manage to survive. They are just good enough to hang on...Joe
January 9, 2014
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kairosfocus - I'm no going to pretend to be a mathematical whizz, lol because I'm certainly not. My major is in bio medical science. But do you have examples of where these mathematical explanations are being applied to the real world. e.g the chances or forming the simplest functional RNA catalyst in pre bio tic conditions etcCassie
January 9, 2014
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Example Joe?Cassie
January 9, 2014
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Cassie, Natural selection is a process of elimination. It has more to do with what doesn't kill the organism than it does with what helps the organism better survive.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Joe - yeah I've noticed that insults and sarcasm are the foundations of most discussions here. Shame. But all that aside, the processes of NS lead towards traits that help the organism to survive. Yes, the products of the proposed mechanisms are not as easy to attain as most evolutionists would like most to think it is, but the term 'guidance' is in reference to the process leading to stable 'life sustaining' traits. But I agree the word should not be used here. By definition, it is no correct.Cassie
January 9, 2014
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Box: the point of differential reproductive success across varieties that is not obviously imposed by an agent, is that it is all after the fact, whoever survives, survives and the unlucky or less fitted get subtracted. That's an effect not a force despite its clever name. It is also perilously close to being a circular, uninformative tautology. It certainly does not ADD information or variation, it removes it. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2014
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LP: Ir will help to make a differentiation. Shannon's metrics assess info carrying capacity in light of the statistics of symbols and will assign a maximal valu8e to flat random noise. As he stated, his metric has to do with transmission and channel capacity, not content and funciton as such. But as you can easily discern from a CD or DVD that turns coaster, functional information that depends on specific config, is distinct from gibberish. When you see a file size of say 197 kB, that is about functionally specific info filling up that much capacity. In dealing with info in the context of design theory, we are mostly interested in metrics of functionally specific info, and we have metric models that will work, starting from slightly refined versions of 197 kB, as a type XXX file. The easiest way to understand that is to think of a string of 500 fair coins, and imagine them tossed at random. The overwhelming bulk of configs from such tosses will be in no particular order or organisation or coded pattern, and pretty near 50-50 H-T, per the binomial distribution. If however you were to see such fair coins all H, or alternating H and T or expressing the ASCII code for the first 72 characters for this post, that would be very different and it would not be hard to see that it is maximally implausible that such would occur by the happenstance of a toss of 500 fair coins. From such, we can easily see that the best explanation would be design; by one of many possible routes. And in a nutshell, I have just given you a simple picture of how the explanatory filter works: when we have narrow specific target zones in a set of possible configs that are so large as to overwhelm atomic resources and time available to explore the contingencies, dominated by gibberish, and we find something that is contingent, specific and complex in that sense, the best explanation is design. The same basic idea extends to more complicated cases. Where also as the text code example shows, random document generation by monkeys at keyboards exercises would be a simple empirical test of the inference. One already undertaken, with result that so far up to 24 ASCII characters in recognisable English have been found by chance. That is successfully searching 1 in 10^50, but the result is a factor of 10^100 short of the threshold of complexity we have used for not plausibly resulting from blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2014
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Mapou- Mayr goes over the diffeence in "What Evolution Is" page 118. It seems selecting for the most fit would put a severe strain on the surviving population because too many would be eliminated:
Do selection and elimination differ in their evolutionary consequences? This question never seems to have been raised in the evolutionary literature. A process of selection would have a concrete objective, the determination of the "best" or "fittest" phenotype. Only a relatively few individuals in a given generation would qualify and survive the selection procedure. THat small sample would be only to be able to preserve only a small amount of the whole variance of the parent population. Such survival selection would be highly restrained. By contrast, mere elimination of the less fit might permit the survival of a rather large number of individuals because they have no obvious deficienies in fitness. Such a large sample would provide, for instance, the needed material for the excercise of sexual selction. This also explains why survival is so uneven from season to season. The percentage of the less fit would depend on the severity of each year's environmental conditions.
The question isn't raised in the vo lit so they equivocate, fool themselves and fool other under-educated chumpsJoe
January 9, 2014
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Last night I watched a recording of Person of Interest from the previous night. In it there was a sequence where one of the super programmers said he developed a GA to find the solution to his failed program. It was only after billions of iterations by his GA till it found the right code. Highly intelligent and highly designed.jerry
January 9, 2014
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Joe @125:
OK so Mayr said that natural selection is a process that eliminates the less fit- as opposed to selecting for the most fit. GAs operate by actually selecting for the most fit , with the most fit being determined by an artificial selection coefficient.
This is a crucial distinction. Indeed, natural selection does not care about the fittest but about the least fit. The survival of the fittest claim is pure BS. This means that the theory of evolution could possibly not have selected for this amazing peacock spider, for example. I have always said it. Darwinian evolution is for morons.Mapou
January 9, 2014
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OK so Mayr said that natural selection is a process that eliminates the less fit- as opposed to selecting for the most fit. GAs operate by actually selecting for the most fit , with the most fit being determined by an artificial selection coefficient. If darwinian evolution operated as GAs do, we definitely wouldn't have to wait thousands to millions of generations to see novel body plans using novel body parts appear. Anyone see that movie "Evolution" with Fox Mulder ;)? That was directed evolution.Joe
January 9, 2014
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OK- Spetner would say that if the variation is due to point mutations then it is likely darwinian. That is all he gives the NDE/ modern synthesis, point mutations. All else is in dispute with leanings toward intelligent design evolution or what he calls a "non-random evolutionary hypothesis"- it has elements of front loading. The overall point being is we may be too quick to give darwinian processes any credit except for messing things up. And the reason we do not witness Sanford's genetic meltdown is because we are a world dominated by intelligent design evolution, meaning organisms were A) designed to evolve and B)evolved by design, with darwinian processes doing their best to muck things up.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Jerry- read- please- “Not BY Chance” by Dr Lee Spetner. Mutations may not totally darwinian… IOW evolution is designed and darwinian evolution messes it up and intelligent design evolution, ala DrSpetner’s “built-in responses to environmental cues” is the real mechanism for adaptations.
I will re-read it but it has been a few years. I was going to offer up the Darwin Finches (all one species) but the morphological changes in the variants may be epigenetic and not genomic. I don't think they really know.jerry
January 9, 2014
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'Its time for you to join the 21st century QUANTUM physics Mr. Phipps and throw off you quaint, but ludicrous, notions that there are no beyond space and time actions worth considering in physics.' Don't bully Mr Phipps, Philip. The early part of the 20th century will do just fine. Little steps to begin with. The scientific proof of theism, virtually a hundred years ago, may stand out to UDers, but it doesn't to impress itself on the scientismificists at all.Axel
January 9, 2014
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Well, Mr Phipps, bornagain77 has shown you that scientism can be a tyrannical master, when it is not in the service of an infantile troll. I hope you have made enquiries about a suitable church in your area you might attend. In the UK, we have a Catholic Truth Society, which publishes a course on the faith, in instalments. Perhaps you have the same in the US.Axel
January 9, 2014
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Eric Anderson #81, When you state that natural selection is not being a force or is “not actually doing anything”, you obviously don’t mean to say that a drop in temperature due to a series of cold winters doesn’t have an effect on sheep. Neither are you saying that an environment without oxygen doesn’t kill aerobic bacteria. If I understand you correctly your main argument is that since there is no coherency between those environmental factors there is no warrant for bundling them in the concept of “natural selection”. Epigenetics, on the contrary, can legitimately be named a “force” - because there is an apparent coherency between the distinct parts. Earlier in this thread you have stressed the incoherency of “natural selection”:
EA #73: Larger organisms? Sure. Smaller organisms? Why not. Faster? You bet. Slower? Well, OK. Eyes? Definitely. Except when creatures don’t get them.
Environmental factors have no coherency, they have no shared goal, so there is no ground for adding them all up and call it a force.Box
January 9, 2014
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jerry:
The antenna example is like WEASEL in the sense that it has the final design criteria built into the selection.
Exactly. (Though with the antenna something of a stochastic goal than a fixed goal.) Anyone who takes time to think through the antenna situation will realize that it had the following key characteristics that have nothing to do with Darwinian evolution: (i) very specific goal in mind, and against which everything was measured (ii) design constraints and parameters for the ultimate outcome (overall weight and size constraints, for example) (iii) specific constraint on materials to be used Those are the real kickers. To that we could probably brainstorm and come up with a few more, such as perhaps: (iv) relatively simple, isolated selection criterion (meaning, able to home in on a single trait) (v) essentially perfect selection (because, again, it is measuring against a very targeted end goal) (vi) general lack of competing targets (contrast this with the situation in nature, where a single trait could be both positive and negative, depending on the environment, or where a single trait could be competing against a dozen others in the same environment)Eric Anderson
January 9, 2014
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Jerry- read- please- "Not BY Chance" by Dr Lee Spetner. Mutations may not totally darwinian... IOW evolution is designed and darwinian evolution messes it up and intelligent design evolution, ala DrSpetner's "built-in responses to environmental cues" is the real mechanism for adaptations.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Eric #115 Not to mention the undisputed universal observation that information does not exist anywhere in nature without massive pre-existing organization as a precondition of its existence. ...and a symbol system with material protocols ...and a physical translation apparatus ...and discontinuities ...and relationships :)Upright BiPed
January 9, 2014
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Is there any evidence that darwinian processes are good for adaptation? Could you please reference it?
It is amazingly hard to find examples. The best that is offered is microbes because of the rapidity of new offspring. Apparently not too much has actually been investigated and definitively pointed to as due to changes in the genome caused by a new environment. Polar bears are offered up as an example. Maybe we should leave it to our Darwinian friends to find the examples. There are changes when a species moves to a new environment but it is hard to say that this is definitely adaptation. It could be random changes. I will have to re-read Dawkins to see what he offers. Interesting conundrum. The process exists and is obviously designed so what is the purpose? Just variety? Then what is the purpose of variety?jerry
January 9, 2014
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LP @84:
you’ve got a number of problems. Firstly information is measured in bits. The greater the unexpectedness then the higher the information content. So no, a mind is not needed to generate bits of information as a random stream of bits is information rich.
And thus, folks, we see a large part of LP's confusion. Until LP takes time to think through what information is and isn't, the whole discussion is probably a waste of time. Hint: LP, we are interested in functional specified information, not the so-called "Shannon information" which is really not information at all, but a measure of information carrying capacity.Eric Anderson
January 9, 2014
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Cassie:
But what exactly do you mean my NS is guided by the surviving reproduces?
Sarcasm- That is all evolution is- one genration giving rise to another, slightly modified generation. In order to do that individuals have to A) survive and then B) reproduceJoe
January 9, 2014
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Hi there Joe. Yes NS is blind and mindless. But what exactly do you mean my NS is guided by the surviving reproduces?Cassie
January 9, 2014
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On another note- the swamp (atbc) has taken noticve of this thread and typically have nothing to say except to attack me for my alleged ignorance, even though what I say is in line with the high priests of evolutionism. And it is very telling that not one of them has anything to refute what I posted. Nice job guys. And Richie, since you are reading this, a positive case for ID has been made. Again your willful ignorance is not a refutation. OTOH you can't make a positive case for your position and it is clear you don't know what a positive case entails.Joe
January 9, 2014
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Is there any evidence that darwinian processes are good for adaptation? Could you please reference it?Joe
January 9, 2014
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I happen to believe that the Darwinian process is an example of excellent design. The cell is an amazing collection of complementary systems all working together for a variety of objectives. Part of this are regenerative processes of transcription and translation and recombination. The purpose of the design is survival through variety which enables the species to adapt. This is the Darwinian process. The gene pool has been given an extensive set of tools (variety of alleles) that allows it to adapt to various environments. The environment will affect which set of tools or alleles gets used. But the tools are built in and do not evolve/change in any but trivial ways. That is the fundamental problem with this useful but limited process. The Darwinian process is not about evolution but about adaptation and the mistake starting with Darwin is thinking that these two processes are the same. There is no evidence that there ever was any evolution through the Darwinian processes of adaption but there is evidence that there has been survival through this adaption. This adaption carries with it a risk, namely extinction. As organisms adapt they loose alleles which means that the gene pool is getting narrower, not expanding. Natural selection is a culling process, not an expansive one. Thus, the more a species adapts the more likely it will face a new environment that it will not be able to survive. This process is obviously built in and in the short run will keep the species going but in the long run it has problems. Mutations are real but a side show. It is blithely thought that mutations expand the gene pool but do they? Where are the examples? The ones pointed to are all trivial. Of course there is deep time but even deep time should leave evidence. Darwinian processes are excellent design for adaptation but not for evolution. For that we have to look elsewhere. But no one has found anything else except for one possibility. But that possibility is anathema for many.jerry
January 9, 2014
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Cassie, NS is blind and mindless. How can a blind and mindless process be guiding? NS is "guided" by the surviving reproducers.Joe
January 9, 2014
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