Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Computational Intelligence and Darwinism

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This UD post got me to thinking. I do that from time to time.

On the subject of computational intelligence I have some minor credentials, including a Silver Medal at the first Computer Olympiad in London, sponsored by David Levy of chess fame. You can access the final results of my research and efforts in computational artificial intelligence (AI) here:

If you have a computer with sufficient memory and disk space you can explore the only perfect-play endgame algorithm ever invented for the game of checkers (known as draughts in the UK).

It was my exploration into computational AI that initially caused me to have doubts about the creative powers of the Darwinian mechanism, which I now consider to be a transparent absurdity as an explanation for almost anything of any significance, and certainly not as an explanation for human intelligence.

Here’s why.

Computer programs that play games like checkers and chess involve two primary algorithms, a brute-force tree search and a leaf-node static evaluator. The tree search says, “If I move here, and the opponent moves there, and I move thus…” Unfortunately, the exponential explosion of possibilities means that the search must eventually be terminated. At that point a static positional evaluator must be invoked. This requires designing heuristics that can evaluate the position with no further search.

The problem is that these heuristics are difficult to devise and encode, and they are often wrong, because of tactical considerations that lurk beyond the horizon of the search and the fact that the heuristics can have unanticipated side-effects.

A human player might say, “Hmmm, if I move here, this will create a positional weakness from which the opponent cannot possibly recover.” There is no way to encode such knowledge, which comes from human experience and positional recognition.

The other problem is that computer programs like mine do not play against the opponent; they play against themselves. The tree search assumes that the opponent sees everything it does, which in a human-versus-human game is not the case. In one game my program played against a grandmaster human, the human was in deep trouble, and he told me so. The computer was considering the move the human feared, which would lead to a very difficult, razor-thin draw. But the program searched so far ahead that it found the draw, assumed the human would see it as well, and played a move that gave the program a few more meaningless points, letting the human off the hook.

All attempts at computational language interpretation have been dismal failures for similar reasons. Even the best spell- and grammar-checkers are astronomically stupid:

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

The point is: With all our human intelligence, technology, and inventiveness, how can anyone who is still in contact with reality believe that random accidents engineered our brains and minds?

Comments
tgpeeler,
I’m late to this party but I notice above that you close with the mind/body problem. I believe it can be judged right or wrong by applying reason to evidence.
Wow - nice! We're all late to this party, actually, since the mind/body problem has been a matter of unresolved debate for literally thousands of years. Anyway it's about time somebody has figured it out!
Let’s assume for a minute that the materialists are right. In other words, mind = brain.
That is one particular materialist theory, called identity theory. There are others of course.
In other words we are “just” very sophisticated “sensing machines.” This immediately suggests several questions to me. The first, most obvious is, if all I can understand about the physical world (which is all that exists according to the materialist ontology) is what I sense via sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch, then how could I possibly even know of the existence of abstract things like mathematics, the laws of physics, the laws of logic, economics, golf, etc…???
You know each of these things differently I'd say. There's good evidence that we are born knowing some of it (counting arithmetic, intuitive/qualitative physics, deduction and induction, etc). More formal representations of physics, logic, math, economics, etc - these are all encoded by cooperative effort among many individuals and taught. I have no idea why you would say this presents a problem for materialism. Think of it this way: Computers can know about the existence of abstract things like logic, math, economics, etc, and I don't think anyone believes computers are inhabited by res cogitans, so it appears that thinking machines have no trouble with abstraction.
In other words, if I only have access to the material world then how is it that I know of the abstract world?
Because machines can represent things; they assume physical states which map to the world at various levels of abstraction.
The answer seems to be that there is more to us than our brains. In fact, one could make a modus tollens argument out of this.
I don't intend any offense, really, but if the solution was this easy, don't you think this matter would be settled by now? May I inquire if you've ever actually studied the arguments that have been made by the many dozens of great thinkers on all sides of this debate throughout history, and studied their rebuttals?aiguy
August 14, 2010
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aiguy: "Reasonable or not (and I happen to think not) it is most certainly not supported by our uniform and repeated experience. So I just wish ID folks would stop saying that it is!" So now you are stating that you've never envisioned a future target that does not exist and then engineer matter and energy in the present to accomplish that goal in the future? I'm seriously confused here ... is that what you are stating?CJYman
August 13, 2010
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aiguy: "CJYman, for example, believes that Meyer is wrong when he claims to have supported the idea that the Designer of ID would necessarily have a conscious mind. Do you believe CJYman is also misrepresenting ID?" I'm sorry, but to me this provides a staggering amount of evidence that either you do not thoroughly read through my responses or you purposefully twist what others are stating, which it seems you've been accused of here on this thread already. So hold on aiguy, not so fast ... I only provided a link to a definition of intelligence that doesn't require consciousness. But then I also backed up the inference that, based on the best information we presently have, the designer is most likely conscious. Remember my little rant about "that's just how science works. We have to utilize presently acting causes to infer to past causes." If FSCI only arises once we have used our consciousness to envision a future target and there is no example of FSCI being generated absent conscious foresight in its causal chain, then conscious foresight most likely is necessary and we can use that to infer conscious foresight whenever we come across FSCI. I've merely shown that there can be two different versions of ID Theory based on two very similar ideas of targets. The only difference is that one would include conscious awareness of the target in the definition and one would not. The only reason I included this is to argue that even IF, and that is a big IF, consciousness is causally impotent ID Theory is still useful and really doesn't have to change much at all. BTW, I think that the best hypothesis for the operation of consciousness is that provided by Penrose and Hameroff and it appears that according to their model, consciousness is not merely epi-phenomenal. Here is the link [http://telicthoughts.com/what-is-an-intelligent-cause/#comment-244642] to my comment re: a non-conscious definition of intelligence. So IF, and again that is a BIG IF, consciousness is indeed epi-phenomenal, the intelligent designer would have to be an artificially intelligent system (in line with the definition I've given in the link). However, this would only work if artificial intelligence can generate consciousness since we are indeed conscious. Furthermore, if consciousness is indeed the most complex phenomenon in existence and if the Conservation of Information Law that Dembski has been working on is correct [that FSCI can not be increased only transferred and transformed] then this provides evidence that AI will not produce consciousness without conscious foresight already in that AI's causal chain.CJYman
August 13, 2010
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aiguy: "IN OUR EXPERIENCE: Complexity doesn’t create FSCI; only complex life forms create FSCI. Dexterity doesn’t create FSCI; only dextrous life forms create FSCI. Physicality doesn’t create FSCI; only physical life forms create FSCI. Intelligence doesn’t create FSCI; only intelligent life forms create FSCI." You've missed two important and simple points ... IN OUR EXPERIENCE: 1. We envision future goals (FSCI) that do not yet exist and then engineer matter and energy to accomplish that goal (FSCI). 2. There is no known example of FSCI being generated absent the process in number 1 in operation in the causal chain. It's really that simple. There is no need to discuss mind/body duality or how foresight operates. Those are interesting questions yet make no difference to the ID inference so long as foresight exists and is used to generate FSCI. ie: will the engineer be able to create complex circuitry if he could not engage in the process described in point number 1 above. I'll be back to respond to your earlier replies that were directed to myself.CJYman
August 13, 2010
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aiguy - I'm late to this party but I notice above that you close with the mind/body problem. I believe it can be judged right or wrong by applying reason to evidence. Let's assume for a minute that the materialists are right. In other words, mind = brain. In other words we are "just" very sophisticated "sensing machines." This immediately suggests several questions to me. The first, most obvious is, if all I can understand about the physical world (which is all that exists according to the materialist ontology) is what I sense via sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch, then how could I possibly even know of the existence of abstract things like mathematics, the laws of physics, the laws of logic, economics, golf, etc...??? In other words, if I only have access to the material world then how is it that I know of the abstract world? The answer seems to be that there is more to us than our brains. In fact, one could make a modus tollens argument out of this. If I only had senses to experience the physical world I could never know of the abstract world. (This is true by definition, law of identity) But I do know of the abstract world. Therefore, it is false that I only have sense experience. The further conclusion follows that there is an abstract or immaterial or “non-sensing” aspect of our being. We call this a mind or soul.tgpeeler
August 13, 2010
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UB,
You are hardly the first to come here and misrepresent what ID claims, and then dig in your heals.
My representations of ID come directly from one if its leading proponents, Stephen Meyer. I have provided a number of quotes (with references) in order to back this up. If you think Meyer is misrepresenting ID, I suggest you take it up with him. You must admit that even among ID enthusiasts there is a great deal of disagreement. CJYman, for example, believes that Meyer is wrong when he claims to have supported the idea that the Designer of ID would necessarily have a conscious mind. Do you believe CJYman is also misrepresenting ID?
In your attacks on Meyer’s claim of universal experience, you stated early on “if ID wishes to posit a known cause as an explanation of FSCI in biology”. You were then corrected on the issue that ID does not posit universal experience in the creation of FSCI in biology; instead ID posits universal experience of a known cause of FSCI in every other venue but biology… then draws a valid INFERENCE to that which is found in biology.
This is just a misunderstanding, not a misrepresentation. Perhaps this will clear it up: 1) ID notes that living things create FSCI in the artifacts they build. 2) ID claims that the same thing that enables living things to create FSCI in their artifacts is what is responsible for the creation of first life. This thing that is responsible both for our artifacts (like watches and airplanes) and biological systems (like eyeballs and flagella) is called "intelligence". Do you think this is a misrepresentation of ID? This is exactly what I meant. My objection to Meyer calling it a "known cause" is this: 1) We have no knowledge of anything which is not itself a life form that can create FSCI. 2) Whatever created the very first life form could not logically have been a life form itself. 3) Therefore we have no knowledge of anything which could have created the first life form.
If I remember correctly, someone used the forum’s strike-out function and gave your sentence back to you with the words in biology stricken from it in order to draw your attention to what the claim actually is. And also to highlight the fact that ID draws a valid inference from a known process in operation today in order to provide a plausible explanation of the unobservable past. It never registered.
I responded to that. Please try and understand my point, after having accused me of misunderstanding ID (or worse, deliberately mispresenting it!) My point is that while the actions of living things are known to create FSCI, there is nothing else known to our experience that does. Therefore when Meyer claims there is a known cause that could account for first life, he is wrong. The reason you think he's right is because you treat "intelligence" as something that exists independently of living things. Perhaps you are right, and perhaps you are wrong. But either way, the matter is certainly not resolved by appeal to our experience. In our experience, intelligence is not a thing-in-itself at all. Rather, it is merely a property of living things, like "complexity" or "athleticism". IN OUR EXPERIENCE: Complexity doesn't create FSCI; only complex life forms create FSCI. Dexterity doesn't create FSCI; only dextrous life forms create FSCI. Physicality doesn't create FSCI; only physical life forms create FSCI. Intelligence doesn't create FSCI; only intelligent life forms create FSCI. I understand you have a different view of mind and matter; your solution to the mind/body problem is that mind is distinct from matter, and that mind interacts with matter in a way that directs its actions. This is a metaphysical stance (called dualism) that can't be judged right or wrong by experiment or observation. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that any theory based on the truth of any particular solution to the mind/body problem (whether it is materialism, dualism, or idealism) is not based on our uniform and repeated experience.aiguy
August 13, 2010
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avocationist,
The only intelligence test we have for the designer is that it was capable of producing the things designed.
I love this one. What you are saying is that your testable definition of "intelligence" is that it can create just the sorts of things we observe! AIG: What caused the complex form and function in biology? AVO: Something "intelligent"! AIG: Really? What is your operational definition of "intelligent"? AVO: That which can create complex form and function! Come on, Avocationist. Can't you see this is just a bit circular? Moliere could not have parodied science any better than you just did. Look here: NotNewton: I have discovered what causes apples to fall! I call it "gravity"! AIGUY: Really? What is your operational definition of "gravity"? NotNewton: "That which causes things to fall!" Can you see why this theory of gravity is vacuous? Now, how about this: Newton: I have discovered what causes apples to fall! I call it "gravity"! AIGUY: Really? What is your operational definiton of "gravity"? Newton: It is a force that exists between any two objects. It acts at any distance. It acts instantaneously. It acts through empty space with no intermediate medium. It acts with a quantified force that diminishes with the square of the distance. It produces an acceleration in both bodies directly toward each other which is proportional to the product of their masses. It... AIGUY: Hey, nice job, Newton! Looks like you have yourself a scientific theory! Are you getting the picture? So you need to provide some testable characterization in order for everyone to decide if what you are talking about actually exists, rather than being just something you made up. I listed lots of ways to characterize an intelligent agent in testable ways - I'm not asking for you to answer ALL of them... rather I'm asking for you to answer ANY of them! Obviously you are claiming that it can create the FSCI we see in biology - that is what we are trying to explain! If your claim is not entirely vacuous, then you need to specify what else is true about this purported "being".
What I see is that you cannot make a design inference as a stand alone. That of course was the purpose of the spaceship scenario. Naturally, you are right that in such a situation the intelligence would almost certainly be humanlike. However, in the case of biological life forms, it looks strongly as though the designer would be fairly different from us. Thus, the intelligence and directed will are pretty much all we have.
You have precisely nothing until you tell me, at long last, what your operational definition of "intelligence" is.
An identity, such as a personal name, or a category of beings, such as “angels” really does not mean much unless we know the attributes.
Yes, that is 100% correct!!! It doesn't mean anything until you know the attributes, and the attributes must be somehow testable!!! I think you are beginning to understand.
Many names are built upon attributes. In addition, whether or not you asked for the attributes or the identity, the problem is the same: you cannot accept a design inference based upon the amount of data that we have. You want more attributes than we have.
Uh, you have precisely zero attributes. None. You haven't said one single thing about this hypothetical designer that we can use to decide if it exists or not.
As to whether we can resolve that the designer is intelligent by observation, I am simply going to leave that because others have done a good job answering it.
Oooh, that's not good. Nobody else has even tried to answer that. The way scientists measure intelligence is with standardized IQ tests, and obviously that isn't going to work in the context of ID, right (I don't think the Designer will be able to fill out the Scantron form, do you?)
Aiguy:“That’s wrong. Darwinian evolution does not attempt to explain first life.” AVO: Does this mean it is only first life that you think we haven’t answers to and you are satisfied with the rest of evolution theory?
Actually no, I think evolutionary theory is essentially true as far as it goes, but that it is fundamentally incomplete, and so it fails to account for the complex form and function we see.
By unguided forces of nature I mean that wind blowing pebbles around will not produce a sonnet.
Sorry, but you didn't answer the question. I asked the following: If you believe there is a difference between "guided" and "unguided" forces in nature, please tell me what it is you think is guiding the "guided" forces. (hint: You have no idea; I think its best to just come out and say it).
You say we can only discuss evidence and not philosophical speculations.
On the contrary, we are all free to speculate to our hearts content. It's fun! The only thing I object to is when folks decide to claim that their speculation is not philosphical or theological, but it is instead scientific. I really don't like that at all.
As I’ve explained, for me there is no subject not within science’s purview, and I have no division between paranormal and regular reality. But your questions are about the reality of a designer that may fit the definition of nonphysical or spiritual or that sort of label.
I'm not interested in labels. I don't care what is normal vs. paranormal, natural vs. supernatural, physical vs. immaterial, etc. I only care that science is grounded in our shared experience, and that inferences that can't be grounded in our shared experiences (like the speculation that a conscious being created life) not be palmed off as "science".
ID is embarked upon an inquiry that does lead to such questions, as to the attributes of the designer.
Let me know when they find some answers!
Well, what if that designer is indeed to be found only within the realm of what you call paranormal?
That would be just fine - I really would find it terribly exciting if someone found a way to demonstrate that mind could exist or act without a physical medium. I followed the PEAR program for many years hoping they'd succeed... but they really didn't. Also Rupert Sheldrake, who I believe is a pretty good scientist who has been treated badly for some minor missteps...
Things which are outside our physical sensing ability may or may not leave clues even when we cannot see them directly. Sunburned skin is a clue to uva or uvb rays. How are we to find out more if we negate the search? You will say that you do no such thing, but you go back and forth, back and forth.
Oh, please. I have never changed my position one bit. Obviously science discovers all manner of things we can't observe directly - everybody knows that. What we typically observe directly are our instruments, or statistical summaries of observations. This has nothing to do with the limitations of our unaided senses, avocation. Good grief.
You also make the argument that ID should not focus on evolution theory. Why, if the theory is obviously inadequate and its claims and suppositions absurd?
I think it's quite interesting that people analyze evolutionary theory and find its faults. Lots of people who I respect (like Stuart Kauffman) do that. These people are doing science, evaluating evidence for and against current theories. That's all great. It has nothing to do with the hypothesis that a conscious being created life. I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. It has nothing to do with "intelligent design".
Even if we don’t have all the correct answers, is there something wrong with pointing out when we are obviously on the wrong track?
As I just said, there is nothing wrong with that - it is an interesting and important thing to do. The mistake people make is to think that once they've shown current evolutionary theory to be wrong/incomplete, that somehow means that their particular theory is vindicated! This is ridiculous. Here: IDGUY: Biological complexity was either caused by Darwinian evolution or a conscious entity. I've proven blind forces can't do it, so it must have been a conscious entity. AIGUY: Really? By that logic you can conclude anything! IDGUY: What do you mean? AIGUY: Biological complexity was either caused by blind forces or there is an infinite number of universes. I've proven blind forces can't do it, so there must be an infinite number of universes! Oops.
Aiguy:The only thing I refuse to do is pretend I know something based on scientific evidence when I don’t. I wish more people did that AVO: In general I agree, although I say it about many types of things, including religion. But I think the design inference is reasonable.
Reasonable or not (and I happen to think not) it is most certainly not supported by our uniform and repeated experience. So I just wish ID folks would stop saying that it is!aiguy
August 13, 2010
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UB: Guess why. Sad really. Gkairosfocus
August 13, 2010
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Aiguy, You are hardly the first to come here and misrepresent what ID claims, and then dig in your heals. Whenever confronted with the misrepresentation, you simply repeat it as if you haven’t heard a word. In your attacks on Meyer’s claim of universal experience, you stated early on “if ID wishes to posit a known cause as an explanation of FSCI in biology”. You were then corrected on the issue that ID does not posit universal experience in the creation of FSCI in biology; instead ID posits universal experience of a known cause of FSCI in every other venue but biology… then draws a valid INFERENCE to that which is found in biology. If I remember correctly, someone used the forum’s strike-out function and gave your sentence back to you with the words in biology stricken from it in order to draw your attention to what the claim actually is. And also to highlight the fact that ID draws a valid inference from a known process in operation today in order to provide a plausible explanation of the unobservable past. It never registered.Upright BiPed
August 13, 2010
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Aiguy, The only intelligence test we have for the designer is that it was capable of producing the things designed. You: “If you claim I say something, you need to provide a quote to support your claim. Otherwise you just put words in mouth. You are wrong on both counts – I ask neither the identity nor all the attributes. So please provide quotes rather than strawmen and perhaps we can move forward at a little better pace.”
What I am asking is what you could possibly be talking about when you say “entity”. Is it a force? A spirit? An animal? An atom? A dog? An unknown property of matter or energy? An unknown property of an unknown substance? Part of space-time geometry?
But that was not the only one. There were at least three. You asked if it could speak French I believe. Perhaps it was in a post to someone else. I couldn’t find it. Aiguy:“I did not ask for all the attributes – only a sufficient level of characterization that would enable us to decide if this thing being hypothesized actually exists or not.” What I see is that you cannot make a design inference as a stand alone. That of course was the purpose of the spaceship scenario. Naturally, you are right that in such a situation the intelligence would almost certainly be humanlike. However, in the case of biological life forms, it looks strongly as though the designer would be fairly different from us. Thus, the intelligence and directed will are pretty much all we have. Also, asking for many different types of attributes is indeed very close to asking the identity. An identity, such as a personal name, or a category of beings, such as “angels” really does not mean much unless we know the attributes. Many names are built upon attributes. In addition, whether or not you asked for the attributes or the identity, the problem is the same: you cannot accept a design inference based upon the amount of data that we have. You want more attributes than we have. As to whether we can resolve that the designer is intelligent by observation, I am simply going to leave that because others have done a good job answering it. Aiguy:“That’s wrong. Darwinian evolution does not attempt to explain first life.” Does this mean it is only first life that you think we haven’t answers to and you are satisfied with the rest of evolution theory? By unguided forces of nature I mean that wind blowing pebbles around will not produce a sonnet.
We would recognize that the TV was built by something very much like a human being. Whatever created first life was certainly not like a human being, so this whole “TV scenario” really gets you nowhere at all.
You say we can only discuss evidence and not philosophical speculations. As I’ve explained, for me there is no subject not within science’s purview, and I have no division between paranormal and regular reality. But your questions are about the reality of a designer that may fit the definition of nonphysical or spiritual or that sort of label. ID is embarked upon an inquiry that does lead to such questions, as to the attributes of the designer. Well, what if that designer is indeed to be found only within the realm of what you call paranormal? Things which are outside our physical sensing ability may or may not leave clues even when we cannot see them directly. Sunburned skin is a clue to uva or uvb rays. How are we to find out more if we negate the search? You will say that you do no such thing, but you go back and forth, back and forth. You also make the argument that ID should not focus on evolution theory. Why, if the theory is obviously inadequate and its claims and suppositions absurd? Even if we don’t have all the correct answers, is there something wrong with pointing out when we are obviously on the wrong track? Aiguy:The only thing I refuse to do is pretend I know something based on scientific evidence when I don’t. I wish more people did that In general I agree, although I say it about many types of things, including religion. But I think the design inference is reasonable.avocationist
August 13, 2010
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UB, Instead of debating and making arugments, you just complain about me and point to other people who you wish could refute my arguments. Here is your last post, and as everyone can see, as all of your posts, you have failed to produce a single argument of your own or refute a single point I've made.
You seem to be reduced to silliness.
An insult, not an argument.
Your argument has been repeatedly addressed by everyone who has interacted with you so far.
You are mistaken; CJY and I agree that Meyer is wrong to infer consciousness, for example. Gil never responded to me at all. And Vivid thought my argument as "air tight"!
Your entire last post continues to be based upon that misrepresentation, and you know it.
That is an unspecified accusation, not an argument. And the "you know it" part is just another groundless personal attack.
Clearly, you refuse to drop your misrepresentation because without it (you end up back at the actual ID argument and) you have nothing.
There are plenty of people I enjoy debating with, like CJY and Nullasulus, even though we disagree about lots of things. Clearly you are unable to debate at all. Sorry.aiguy
August 13, 2010
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CJYMan,
But now I’m starting to question myself. Is the inference to design truly independent of mathematical analysis? Well, the observation of the link between foresight and FSCI is independent of math...
There is no scientific between something called "foresight" and FSCI. Rather, there is a link between "human beings" and FSCI. You say that "foresight" is what enables humans to think; others say it is "neuronal activity". You say consciousness is required; this is by no means evident.
you have to ignoring what we do experience daily, as summed up in the three questions re: your experience of foresight, the engineer’s utilization of foresight, and the generation of FSCI absent foresight in the causal chain that I keep asking you and you have not yet sufficiently answered or answered at all.
I really don't mean to skip your questions. I think I've answered these: Yes I experience conscious awareness of my intentions and goals. Everything we see creating FSCI is a human being or other animal, but when humans or other animals produce FSCI it is not always accompanied by conscious awareness of the planning involved. Please tell me explicitly what other questions you think I haven't answered.
That math (assuming it does what it purports to do), combined with our repeated and uniform experience of our own use of foresight to generate FSCI, would provide an apparently water-tight case for ID Theory.
The problem with this is the you are reifying foresight. There is no science to that. I've said this in many different ways, but you don't acknowledge it. You don't know what foresight is, or what it does, or what it doesn't do, or what conditions are required for it to operate, or what it has to do with consciousness. For you, "foresight" means the same thing as res cogitans. There is nothing scientific about it - nothing that we can test. Just because you are consciosu and you design FSCI does not mean that your consciousness has a causal role in this process, and many cognitive scientists believe it does not.
1. Re: “anthropomorphic mistake,” that is nothing more than a cop-out that would not work if we found FSCI such as a manuscript on the other side of the universe.
This is a very old mistake. You name something that humans make, then ask what we would think if we found this extra-terrestrially. You say it we would infer "intelligent agency". But that is wrong - we would instead infer "a life form similar to human beings".
Furthermore, and I’ve already explained this, when it comes to “belief” I also don’t think that the “ultimate designer” is conscious in the exact same way that humans are conscious, but that has nothing to do with science. Science can only work with what we have available and in our repeat and uniform experience we do experience foresight and we utilize it to produce FSCI and there is no example of FSCI being produce absent foresight in the causal chain. Add the math which is used to create a no-go theorem, and you have a testable and falsifiable hypothesis based on math and uniform and repeat experience. That’s all that science is about.
You're half right - there is no science to support Meyer's claim that the cause of life was conscious. So we both agree he's completely wrong about that. We both agree that Stephen Meyers is wrong when he claims that scientific evidence supports the conclusion that a conscious being was responsible for creating the first living cell. That is a great result, really. I'll be happy if that's the only thing we agree on! You're wrong, however, about experiencing foresight as the cause of FSCI. We do not. We experience foresight (the conscious awareness of our intentions), and we create FSCI, but the two are not related in any way that we understand. There are situations where we believe some choices are under the control of our conscious intent when they are not. And there are also situations where we are not conscious of making choices and producing FSCI when we actually are.
For you to come up with imaginary causal factors that you can’t define and we never experience has nothing to do with science.
Yes, quite so. True for everyone. No imaginary conscious things, no imaginary unconscious things, no imaginary connection between what human beings experience in their minds and what caused first life. Imagination is fine, but it's not science.
Furthermore, if we just “leave it there” then there is nothing more to discuss as you now seem unwilling to understand and look into ID Theory. Instead, you wish to provide undefined speculation as some sort of argument against the math and uniform and repeat experience upon which ID Theory is based.
Now you are really building strawmen, CJY. You have it all wrong. I have said over and over and over and over again that I am providing no explanation at all, so for you to pretend that I am using an undefined speculation as an argument against ID is ridiculous. I am saying that we can all make up all kinds of speculations - that's easy - but there is no empirical reason to believe any of them.
2. As to foresight not being well defined … how is “your ability to envision a future goal and then organize matter and energy in the present to accomplish that goal in the future” not a good definition?
If what you are saying is scientific, then it is not predicated on dualism, right? In other words, IF I adopted a materialist viewpoint your definition would be just as meaningful, right? OK, from a materialist viewpoint, when a human designs a watch, it is something that happens in strict accord with natural law. Physics determines how the environment interacts with the structures and chemistry of the brain, and out comes a watch. It's just law + chance, nothing more. Our experience of consciousness has nothing to do with it - it is purely epiphenomenal. (I'm not saying we know this is true - it's just arguendo). So IF that were true, then ID Theory would say: First life was created by something that operated according strictly according to law + chance, just like everything else.
Can you answer the question: “do you experience foresight as I have defined it?” If you can answer in the affirmative, how is the definition not good enough?
Because our conscious experience may be epiphenomenal (i.e. not causal).
AIG: Yes of course I experience conscious awareness, including awareness of what I want to design. CJY: So that’s an emphatic “yes” to my question “does foresight exist?”
If you define "foresight" as "conscious awareness of future goals", then yes. But we have no evidence that this is what causes those goals to be reached. I have been working in cognitive science for thirty years, and to us these distinctions are obvious. I realize, however, that people who have not studied cognitive psychology have a hard time understanding that our intuitions about what our minds are and how they work are not necessarily correct. We used to have an intuition that we thought with our hearts and that our brains were for cooling our blood. After some research we figured out we thought with our brains. Recently it has become clear that we think with our whole body (our intestines are particular active in our decision-making, but we are not conscious of those processes). We now have an intuition that our conscious desires cause our plans to form. Research indicates that this intuition may also be wrong, and that our incipient plans actually cause our conscious desires instead. It's all pretty speculative - nobody knows how it works. Which is why it is just ridiculous to claim we understand how humans create FSCI and pretend that we have reason to infer that the same thing was responsible for creating first life. The next paragraphs in you post revisit the same idea. You keep talking about our "experiencing" foresight, but then you say this has nothing to do with consciousness. Please tell me what it means to experience foresight if you are not conscious of it. You continue to reify "foresight" as something that exists and causes plans to form. I refute that with research that indicates our experience of foresight may well be epiphenomenal, and be the result of our plans rather than the cause.
If you disagree with me then show me the engineer who could design complex circuitry on “autopilot” without first utilizing his foresight to originally learn and practice the designing of complex circuitry.
The fact that we produce many types of FSCI without awareness is one piece of evidence that consciousness is not causal in producing FSCI at all. There is lots of other evidence (cf. Daniel Wegner especially). Please (and this goes for onlookers too) do not pretend that I am claiming any particular theory of mind is true. What I claim is that we do not understand what minds are or how they work, and what ID does is to assume one particular theory of mind and pretend that we know it is true.
The only reason I discussed a sufficiently organized information processing system as the producer of foresight was to show that even given the materialist premise, ID Theory still works just fine.
You don't need to believe in materialism in order to reject as scientific any theory which assumes dualism. Scientific theories need to be neutral on theories of mind; any theory that is predicated on one particular stance on the mind/body problem is not scientific. We know that people cannot design things unless they have a working, complex, physical brain. We know that computers cannot design things unless they have a working, complex, physical processor. We know of nothing else that designs things. That is what we know from our experience, no matter what solution to the mind/body problem you happen to like.
AIG: Second, if you would like to propose a version of ID theory that claims “a sufficiently organized conscious brain” was the cause of first life, please be my guest. I somehow doubt that this idea is quite as popular as Meyer’s formulation CJY: Probably not, and the only reason I propose it is to show that the subject of material vs. immaterial has no bearing whatsoever on the fundamentals of the science of ID Theory.
But it has everything to do with it. I believe you and I agree that unless you assume dualism, ID theory is stuck with positing a complex physical mechanism as the cause of life. That doesn't mean we assume materialism; it is simply the only stance that is supported by our experience. We know that people have brains and we know people have conscious experience, but we do not know if consciousness is causal.
All that matters is …
What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind! (just an old joke).
Based on the reasoning you’ve brought forth here, we would never know anything about the past.
That's ridiculous. How do my arguments pertain to geology, for example?
You seem to not allow experience of present acting causes as inference into causal factors in the past.
That's ridiculous! That is exactly how we must make inferences about the past.
Oh, and one more question for you, aiguy, before I’m out: “why do you insist on everyone agreeing to not know anything about the causal factor that produces FSCI, when some of us actually do realize that foresight appears to play a necessary role based on our uniform and repeat experience especially since there is no example of FSCI being generated absent foresight in its causal chain?
It always amazes me that people enamored of a supposedly scientific theory called "Intelligent Design" have such little interest in learning about what scientists who actually study intelligence have to say about it. How many books on the subject of cognitive science have you read? Have you read Daniel Wegner? Gerald Edleman? Christof Koch? Pat Churchland? V.S. Ramachandran? How about philosophers of mind like John Searle? David Chalmers? Hilary Putnam? Stephen Pinker? What you will learn is that these matters are far from settled, and people argue every imaginable solution to the mind/body problem, just as they have for thousands of years. You say this has no impact on ID but you just don't understand - if human beings' ability to create FSCI is nothing but law+chance, and "foresight" is just a label for the purely mechanical processes that happen to go on inside our bodies and we happen to have conscious awareness of, then all of ID collapses.
Imagine a scientist working the way that you want this done. He would always be saying “I don’t know” regardless of the fact that effect “y” is always present when “x” is first present and effect “y” is never present absent “x.” Would he be a good scientist if he ignored his own work and just said “I don’t know,” or should he publish his findings of the apparent relationship between “x” and “y” based on his uniform and repeat experience?
For most of history people thought the Sun burned in the way a campfire burned. They had experience of setting fire to wood or straw and seeing the light and heat emanate; it was reasonable to assume the same thing was what caused the Sun to give off light and heat. It wasn't until the 20th century that people figured out no amount of fuel could keep the Sun burning the way it does, if it really was the sort of fire we knew about. It turned out a very different mechanism is responsible for the radiation of the Sun (nuclear fusion rather than chemical oxidation). Human beings create FSCI; we don't know how. FSCI exists in biology; we don't know how it got there. You claim the same thing is behind both phenomena. You may be right, but you may be wrong. I'm the only one who is certain to be correct: I claim we do not know.aiguy
August 13, 2010
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Correct.kairosfocus
August 13, 2010
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Aiguy, You seem to be reduced to silliness. Your argument has been repeatedly addressed by everyone who has interacted with you so far. Your mischaracterization of the ID argument has been noted by Kairos, me, Vivid, CY, Above, CJYman, GilDodgen, Joseph, and nullasalus - on at least four threads. Your entire last post continues to be based upon that misrepresentation, and you know it. Clearly, you refuse to drop your misrepresentation because without it (you end up back at the actual ID argument and) you have nothing.Upright BiPed
August 13, 2010
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aiguy: "Can we agree now that nobody knows?" Based on the reasoning you've brought forth here, we would never know anything about the past. You seem to not allow experience of present acting causes as inference into causal factors in the past. Oh well, then I guess we are at an impasse and nothing more can be said other than you don't like how science operates and you feel more comfortable either in your own ignorance or in imagining undefined causal factors that we do not experience and which may or may not be able to account for the effects we observe. That is basically what you have been saying this whole time. What more can I say ... I am going to have to just agree to disagree with you. Oh, and one more question for you, aiguy, before I'm out: "why do you insist on everyone agreeing to not know anything about the causal factor that produces FSCI, when some of us actually do realize that foresight appears to play a necessary role based on our uniform and repeat experience especially since there is no example of FSCI being generated absent foresight in its causal chain? Imagine a scientist working the way that you want this done. He would always be saying "I don't know" regardless of the fact that effect "y" is always present when "x" is first present and effect "y" is never present absent "x." Would he be a good scientist if he ignored his own work and just said "I don't know," or should he publish his findings of the apparent relationship between "x" and "y" based on his uniform and repeat experience?CJYman
August 13, 2010
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aiguy: "My point was, and what I said, was that no math was involved in the inference to a conscious designer. What you have just said is exactly that. Apparently you thought you disagreed with me, but now you realize that you don’t." I never did disagree with you. How could I, when you were merely restating something I've already explained before? But now I'm starting to question myself. Is the inference to design truly independent of mathematical analysis? Well, the observation of the link between foresight and FSCI is independent of math as it is based on uniform and repeat experience, however the no-go theorem that the math provides does indirectly support the ID inference and together with the inference allows one to form ID Theory. But then again, that's pretty much what I've already explained. aiguy: "I think we’re agreeing here as well for the most part, except perhaps you think that science always provides an answer (an inference to the best explanation) no matter how unsupported that “best inference” might be. That’s not the case. If we really don’t know what the cause of something is, we don’t just take the “least wild guess”… we say instead “we do not know”. " ... of course, but in this case, you have to ignoring what we do experience daily, as summed up in the three questions re: your experience of foresight, the engineer's utilization of foresight, and the generation of FSCI absent foresight in the causal chain that I keep asking you and you have not yet sufficiently answered or answered at all. aiguy: "Just for the sake of argument (I don’t actually believe this at all) let us agree that Dembski has proven a limitive law that says no combination of reguarlity and chance can create FSCI. (I don’t believe this because we have no reason to think we’re aware of every aspect of “regularity”). Anyway, assume this is true. As I’ve said over and over again, that is no reason at all to believe that some conscious “entity” of some sort exists and that this thing could create life! " That math (assuming it does what it purports to do), combined with our repeated and uniform experience of our own use of foresight to generate FSCI, would provide an apparently water-tight case for ID Theory. aiguy: "I think here’s where we need to clarify and disagree. I think that the design inference is an anthroporphic mistake. I think proving that we don’t know how life started doesn’t prove that whatever did cause it was a conscious being. I think that whatever you mean by “foresight” (and I think it is very unclear what you think it is) there is no method for determining if the cause of life experienced it or not. I think just because human beings are conscious and build complex machines does not make it likely that whatever caused life is also conscious. I know you disagree, so let’s leave it there." Well, let me just clarify my position before we just "leave it there." 1. Re: "anthropomorphic mistake," that is nothing more than a cop-out that would not work if we found FSCI such as a manuscript on the other side of the universe. Furthermore, and I've already explained this, when it comes to "belief" I also don't think that the "ultimate designer" is conscious in the exact same way that humans are conscious, but that has nothing to do with science. Science can only work with what we have available and in our repeat and uniform experience we do experience foresight and we utilize it to produce FSCI and there is no example of FSCI being produce absent foresight in the causal chain. Add the math which is used to create a no-go theorem, and you have a testable and falsifiable hypothesis based on math and uniform and repeat experience. That's all that science is about. For you to come up with imaginary causal factors that you can't define and we never experience has nothing to do with science. Furthermore, if we just "leave it there" then there is nothing more to discuss as you now seem unwilling to understand and look into ID Theory. Instead, you wish to provide undefined speculation as some sort of argument against the math and uniform and repeat experience upon which ID Theory is based. 2. As to foresight not being well defined ... how is "your ability to envision a future goal and then organize matter and energy in the present to accomplish that goal in the future" not a good definition? Can you answer the question: "do you experience foresight as I have defined it?" If you can answer in the affirmative, how is the definition not good enough? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. aiguy: "Yes of course I experience conscious awareness, including awareness of what I want to design." So that's an emphatic "yes" to my question "does foresight exist?" aiguy: "I also generate FSCI without conscious awareness, however, as all of us do." Yes, and computers do the same all the time. That was never my contention. You however must first use your foresight to generate the FSCI the first time you do so, and then once you develop muscle and other types of memory by producing that FSCI with your foresight many times, you will then be able to produce that particular type of FSCI on autopilot. So, the production of FSCI still requires foresight in its causal chain. If you disagree with me then show me the engineer who could design complex circuitry on "autopilot" without first utilizing his foresight to originally learn and practice the designing of complex circuitry. aiguy: "I have no idea of unconscious generation of FSCI constitutes “foresight” or not." It would be more akin to artificial intelligence, which still (from everything we presently know and experience) requires foresight in its causal chain. aiguy: "I also do not know if consciousness plays a causal role in planning. You don’t know these things, either." This is what I do observe, and all that is required to formulate a scientific hypothesis ... I envision a future goal (FSCI) before I begin the planning stage and if I don't envision the future goal I don't plan, organize matter and energy, and arrive at FSCI. Also, as already explained, this process must first take place many times before memory and autopilot can kick in. However, let's say that our consciousness is indeed only an observer and is causally impotent ... I've replied to that here (http://telicthoughts.com/what-is-an-intelligent-cause/#comment-244642). aiguy: "Of course I can demonstrate FSCI being generated absent conscious foresight! People who talk in their sleep are not conscious of their actions, but generate high levels of FSCI in their grammatical sentences. Much of our mental activity is known to proceed unconsciously – everything from our complex physical planning tasks required to ride a bike or drive a car to the way we often solve difficult math problems when we’re not consciously thinking about them." And in accordance with the question I actually asked, all these activities require foresight in their causal chain. Yes, we can go on auto pilot, but only because we've previously used our foresight to be able to produce these patterns and store them in memory. You have yet to show an example where FSCI was generated absent foresight in its causal chain. aiguy: "First, we do not know if “sufficiently organized conscious brains” are capable of producing FSCI or not – that is an unsupportable metaphysical position called materialism (or physicalism), and it happens to be a very unpopular stance here at UD." But it makes no difference how foresight is produced. The only thing required is that it exists, and we utilize it to produce FSCI, which you seem to agree with now based on your some of your answers to my questions. The only reason I discussed a sufficiently organized information processing system as the producer of foresight was to show that even given the materialist premise, ID Theory still works just fine. aiguy: "In any event, all that we know is the working brains seem to be necessary for thought, but we don’t know if they are sufficient." Of course. And all we know and experience is that foresight seems to be necessary for the production of FSCI. aiguy: "Second, if you would like to propose a version of ID theory that claims “a sufficiently organized conscious brain” was the cause of first life, please be my guest. I somehow doubt that this idea is quite as popular as Meyer’s formulation :-) " Probably not, and the only reason I propose it is to show that the subject of material vs. immaterial has no bearing whatsoever on the fundamentals of the science of ID Theory. All that matter is ... 1. Foresight exists. 2. We use our foresight to generate FSCI. 3. FSCI will not be produced absent foresight in its causal chain.CJYman
August 13, 2010
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UB,
AIGUY: Only a fool would fail to realize what actually was responsible… UB: No argument here.
Hahahaha...I get it! You leave the part out of my quote that explains why you are confused, so you can pretend I was wrong. That's funny!
Read this carefully: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information, Dr David Abel and Jack Trevors, Theoretical Biology and Medical Modeling. 2005; 2: 29. doi: 10.1186/1742-4682-2-29. You’ll find a fine analysis of the types of sequencing that can and cannot lead to FCSI in biology, and you’ll also find a clearly written statement as to a cause which is capable of bringing such sequencing into existence. As before, your only option is to assign to the paper something it does not contain.
Like KF, you seem to be unable to mount an argument of your own, or respond to any of mine, so you resort to pointing to what other people write. Well OK, but if you're going to rely on other people's arguments, the very least you can do is provide a few excerpts that illustrate what you are alluding to. Oh well, I guess I have to do all the work here... So you claim there is some "clearly written statement" about this mysterious cause.... really? He explains how we know some conscious being existed prior to life, and how it managed to think up designs for biology, and then build some biological structures? Awesome! I can hardly wait. Here, let me take a look... Well, I don't see anything like that. What might you be talking about... hmmm... Well sorry, but there is nothing remotely like what you suggest in that paper. The only explanation that these guys offer says nothing about consciousness at all. It says nothing about a being that existed prior to life who thought about designing a genome. What they do refer is something they call "choice contingency". Well, OK, there's a name for something... I'm sure they'll get to this detailed description of how this thing creates biological function somewhere... still looking... Nope, sorry. They don't say at all how biological structures were created, much less all about a hypothetical conscious entity being involved! All they talk about is what they think can't account for it, then allude to "choice contingency" as their solution. Can they really know about every unconscious process that exists in nature and say they are all "law-like" in the manner they describe (which is to say incapable of producing what we observe)? Obviously many scientists think otherwise (cf. the late Brian Goodwin and especially Stuart Kauffman on the topic). And more importantly, are these guys really describing what you say they are - a detailed description of what was responsible? Or some detailed description of how some conscious entity built living things? No, of course they aren't, not at all. The only allude to "choice contingency", but fail to describe what that is supposed to be, much less describe it in detail! Here, in his own words, is Jack Trevors' opinion on the matter:
He [Jack Trevors] notes, however, that not even evolution deigns to tell us where or how life itself first came about or how DNA's instructions came to be. Perhaps the birthplace of those instructions — like the very creation of the universe itself — is, in Trevors' words, both “unknowable and ‘undecidable' at this point in time.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/atguelph/05-10-26/profile.shtml Aha! A man after my own heart! Since you seem to be enamored of these guys' work, perhaps you will now agree with them and me: We do not know! Can we agree now that nobody knows?aiguy
August 13, 2010
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avocationist,
I just spend 90 minutes on a reply, and my computer crashed or closed for updates. I guess I will try to recompose some of it but in much briefer form.
I hate when that happens.
In your question about intelligence, you ask whether or not the item has it. But it’s a sliding scale. Piddling about a precise definition, and of an entity we have not seen, is not necessary. We are using it in the common, everyday sense.
Intelligence is "a sliding scale"? How is this scale measured? By a standardized intelligence test I presume? Great - which test shall we give to the Intelligent Designer... the Stanford-Binet? (I hope the Designer knows how to work a pencil!)
You say you are not asking about the identity of the designer but proceed to do precisely that. You ask all the attributes.
If you claim I say something, you need to provide a quote to support your claim. Otherwise you just put words in mouth. You are wrong on both counts - I ask neither the identity nor all the attributes. So please provide quotes rather than strawmen and perhaps we can move forward at a little better pace. I did not ask for all the attributes - only a sufficient level of characterization that would enable us to decide if this thing being hypothesized actually exists or not.
We do not know the attributes except we see that a certain minimum of intelligence is need to produce FCSI.
No we don't. If you disagree, please tell me how we can resolve the matter by appeal to observation. Thanks!
Your spaceship has just landed upon a strange planet and your crew comes upon an artifact, like a TV. You don’t know what sort of beings you may meet, but you can be pretty sure you have a couple of attributes more or less right, intelligence, directed toward a goal.
What I would infer would be that a biological organism very similar to human beings were involved. They must have had eyes and brains to process visual information similarly to human beings. They must have had ears to hear the audio. They must have had hands and fingers to operate the TV controls similarly to humans. And since I could infer all this, I would hypothesize that their brain was similar to human beings and so they probably had other abilities similar to human beings too. We could infer all of this by finding something like a TV. We can infer none of these things by looking at a cell.
Asking attributes is very similar to asking the identity of the designer.
I have told you many times that it is not the same at all. We do not ask about the "identity" of the force that holds electrons in orbit, do we? No, we ask for the attributes of that force.
Unfortunately we know rather little about it. But that should not stop our inquiry, should it? We have a choice here.
That's right. We actually know nothing about it, and we should definitely proceed in our inquiries, so someday we might know something. We agree!
Either the Darwinists are on the right track, or we should seek an intentional cause.
That's wrong. Darwinian evolution does not attempt to explain first life. And you can seek an intentional cause all you'd like - just don't claim you've found one until you can provide some evidence.
Of course blind is a metaphor, one we use here frequently for ease of communication.
LOL! Sorry, but ease of communication isn't an excuse for failing to describe what it is your theory is proposing. Please do us the favor of spelling it out! What do you mean if not "blind"? When you say "unguided nature", you imply that some nature is "guided". Guided by what, avocationist?
I was stating that you seemed to posit the possibility of an unconscious force of some sort.
I claim we do not know. Maybe the actual cause was conscious, maybe not. We have no way of knowing.
Surely you can see a difference between making up a nonsense word with no prior meaning, and stating that the TV your crew found was most likely made by an intelligent being that would at least be recognizable to us as such.
We would recognize that the TV was built by something very much like a human being. Whatever created first life was certainly not like a human being, so this whole "TV scenario" really gets you nowhere at all.
There’s a book you might like, The Great Cosmic Serpent. It’s about DNA more or less. He posits that DNA might be a continuously living entity with an indwelling intelligence of life.
There is no shortage of speculation and imagination. There is shortage of science.
AIG: Yes, if you want to base ID on evidence of paranormal phenomena then I have no problem with that. But please be explicit that this is what you are doing. Most ID proponents reject that outright (I’ve asked them!).” AVO: They reject it only if it infringes on the clarity of the barrier between the ID INFERENCE and the intelligent entity itself. But we can of course discuss it and often do. You said you don’t want to discuss philosophy and yet many of your questions are in that area.
No, none of my questions are in that area. All of my questions ask for experience-based evidence for the claims of ID. I don't want to talk about your philosophical and theological speculations at all, and I keep saying so. There have been some paranormal researchers who actually do science; I'm not averse to their work a priori. I think the evidence is very weak for paranormal phenomena, but I think it remains an open question. If ID was a real science, paranormal research is exactly what ID researchers would be doing, instead of talking about Darwin's theory all the time.
Also, your problem seems to be that while you admit Darwinist evolutionary theory is lacking, you see a big hurdle with either a disembodied mind and/or with this mind acting without mechanism.
What I see is that we have no empirical reason to believe that anything without a complex physical body can have the same abilities that human beings do. We have no observations of anything remotely like this in our uniform and repeated experience.
Now, perhaps there is no truly scientific explanation of what a being is, and yet you call yourself a human being, and you admit that a human being placed the broom on the mailbox. How can you say that when you don’t even know what a human being really is?
We all know what human beings are. We don't have a characterization of "beings" in general, however. Do you mean "animal"? "Life form"? "Thing with an immortal soul"?
You seem to me a person who both thinks outside the box and yet refuses to at the same time.
I think outside of the box, yes. The only thing I refuse to do is pretend I know something based on scientific evidence when I don't. I wish more people did that.
When I said frontloading could not be done unconsciously, it was not baseless opinion. To create a frontloaded system would require even more intelligence and forethought than creating as you go.
If by "intelligence and forethought" you mean conscious experience, then I disagree completely. (And if you don't, then I don't know what you mean). How do you propose we settle these disagreements by appeal to the evidence of our experience? (hint: we cannot).aiguy
August 13, 2010
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Aiguy,
Only a fool would fail to realize what actually was responsible...
No argument here.
Read this carefully: Neither of us can describe anything in detail which is capable of generating the FSCI we see in biology.
Read this carefully: Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information, Dr David Abel and Jack Trevors, Theoretical Biology and Medical Modeling. 2005; 2: 29. doi: 10.1186/1742-4682-2-29. You’ll find a fine analysis of the types of sequencing that can and cannot lead to FCSI in biology, and you’ll also find a clearly written statement as to a cause which is capable of bringing such sequencing into existence. As before, your only option is to assign to the paper something it does not contain.Upright BiPed
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aigyuy, I just spend 90 minutes on a reply, and my computer crashed or closed for updates. I guess I will try to recompose some of it but in much briefer form. In your question about intelligence, you ask whether or not the item has it. But it’s a sliding scale. Piddling about a precise definition, and of an entity we have not seen, is not necessary. We are using it in the common, everyday sense. You say you are not asking about the identity of the designer but proceed to do precisely that. You ask all the attributes. We do not know the attributes except we see that a certain minimum of intelligence is need to produce FCSI. Your spaceship has just landed upon a strange planet and your crew comes upon an artifact, like a TV. You don’t know what sort of beings you may meet, but you can be pretty sure you have a couple of attributes more or less right, intelligence, directed toward a goal. Asking attributes is very similar to asking the identity of the designer. Whatever it is, of course it exists! (?) Unfortunately we know rather little about it. But that should not stop our inquiry, should it? We have a choice here. Either the Darwinists are on the right track, or we should seek an intentional cause. Of course blind is a metaphor, one we use here frequently for ease of communication. Me: “You seem to posit a third one, an unconscious God. You may elaborate." You: What do you mean by “God”? You said it meant “self-existing”. Now you seem to be changing your story… what does “self-existing” have to do with consciousness?” No, I am not being inconsistent; the question was to you, not me. I was stating that you seemed to posit the possibility of an unconscious force of some sort. Since you ask, I do ponder the attributes of God, and am fairly sure there is a consciousness and a mind, but I don't speak with certainty nor can I imagine what that mind and consciousness are like. But that self existent thing is surely the source of life. Not necessarily the designer of the biological systems. ****** Surely you can see a difference between making up a nonsense word with no prior meaning, and stating that the TV your crew found was most likely made by an intelligent being that would at least be recognizable to us as such. There’s a book you might like, The Great Cosmic Serpent. It’s about DNA more or less. He posits that DNA might be a continuously living entity with an indwelling intelligence of life. “Yes, if you want to base ID on evidence of paranormal phenomena then I have no problem with that. But please be explicit that this is what you are doing. Most ID proponents reject that outright (I’ve asked them!).” They reject it only if it infringes on the clarity of the barrier between the ID INFERENCE and the intelligent entity itself. But we can of course discuss it and often do. You said you don’t want to discuss philosophy and yet many of your questions are in that area. Also, your problem seems to be that while you admit Darwinist evolutionary theory is lacking, you see a big hurdle with either a disembodied mind and/or with this mind acting without mechanism. So I offered my ideas on that. And not only mine. There is plenty of evidence for it. As for the idea that the godlike Source is always and intimately permeating that which must logically have arisen out of this source, that is logic and not just intuition. Now, perhaps there is no truly scientific explanation of what a being is, and yet you call yourself a human being, and you admit that a human being placed the broom on the mailbox. How can you say that when you don’t even know what a human being really is? You seem to me a person who both thinks outside the box and yet refuses to at the same time. When I said frontloading could not be done unconsciously, it was not baseless opinion. To create a frontloaded system would require even more intelligence and forethought than creating as you go.avocationist
August 13, 2010
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CJYMan,
Of course you’re right that the mathematical analysis only shows that a random set of laws will not produce FSCI. That’s what I already stated and that is what the ID theorists also state. You must have missed that second part where I included, and the ID theorists include an inference to complete the ID Theory.
My point was, and what I said, was that no math was involved in the inference to a conscious designer. What you have just said is exactly that. Apparently you thought you disagreed with me, but now you realize that you don't.
What you are stating boils down to... I understand that we experience that “x” is utilized in the generation of “y” but I don’t like that so I’m going to say that there must also be “z” that can produce “y”. Well then, go ahead and provide your case, but science can only deals with what we presently know, not pure imagination of what may or may not exist. A scientist then provides an inference into what most likely occurred or existed in the past based on our uniform and repeated experience of presently acting cause and effect. As I’ve stated before that’s merely the limitations of science.
I think we're agreeing here as well for the most part, except perhaps you think that science always provides an answer (an inference to the best explanation) no matter how unsupported that "best inference" might be. That's not the case. If we really don't know what the cause of something is, we don't just take the "least wild guess"... we say instead "we do not know".
So, yes, ID Theory does provide a no-go theorem akin to the no-go theorem re: the Laws of Thermodynamics and the impossibility of perpetual motion free energy machines.
In physics these are often called "limitive laws" and play an essential role in our understanding. The conservation laws, the Pauli exclusion principle, and Heisenberg uncertainty principle are all foundational. Just for the sake of argument (I don't actually believe this at all) let us agree that Dembski has proven a limitive law that says no combination of reguarlity and chance can create FSCI. (I don't believe this because we have no reason to think we're aware of every aspect of "regularity"). Anyway, assume this is true. As I've said over and over again, that is no reason at all to believe that some conscious "entity" of some sort exists and that this thing could create life!
But ID goes beyond and offers an inference which I’ve already explained many times before and you have not yet negated.
I think here's where we need to clarify and disagree. I think that the design inference is an anthroporphic mistake. I think proving that we don't know how life started doesn't prove that whatever did cause it was a conscious being. I think that whatever you mean by "foresight" (and I think it is very unclear what you think it is) there is no method for determining if the cause of life experienced it or not. I think just because human beings are conscious and build complex machines does not make it likely that whatever caused life is also conscious. I know you disagree, so let's leave it there.
In fact, referencing the inference to the conscious definition of foresight, you seem to not want to respond to my questions of whether you experience foresight as I have defined it,
??? Yes of course I experience conscious awareness, including awareness of what I want to design. I also generate FSCI without conscious awareness, however, as all of us do. I have no idea of unconscious generation of FSCI constitutes "foresight" or not. I also do not know if consciousness plays a causal role in planning. You don't know these things, either.
...if the engineer can produce complex circuitry (FSCI) without foresight as I have defined it, or if you can provide an example of FSCI being generated absent foresight (as I have defined it) in its causal chain. So there is really not much more that can be said and I’m still really not sure where your problem with ID Theory lies.
Here's what I've said previously (in the previous thread where you called natural evolution "artificial intelligence" for some reason):
Of course I can demonstrate FSCI being generated absent conscious foresight! People who talk in their sleep are not conscious of their actions, but generate high levels of FSCI in their grammatical sentences. Much of our mental activity is known to proceed unconsciously – everything from our complex physical planning tasks required to ride a bike or drive a car to the way we often solve difficult math problems when we’re not consciously thinking about them.
https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/trouble-in-the-“belief-enforcement”-science-world-gets-noticed-even-in-the-new-york-times/#comment-361127 So yes, I really did give you examples. I think you just aren't... conscious of them :-) UB,
So even in principle, if we walk outside and find a mop bucket perched precariously on top of the mailbox and I say that “someone put it there” and you say “no” of course the wind and gravity did it – you then can suggest you are not obligated to explain your position because I am unable to tell you the shoe color of unknown conscious entity my explaination requires? I find that intersting. It must be a very comfortable corner of reality for you.
Only a fool would fail to realize what actually was responsible for that bucket's placement, which would be a human being. No sane person would imagine that it was the wind, or gravity, or an ant, or an elephant, or a ghost, or a god, or an alien from outer space. Everyone who was not delusional or otherwise mentally defective would infer anything but a human being as the cause.
First you decline to say what immaterial realities you are open to,
Wrong. I said that the label of "immaterial" required a good deal of definitional work in order to talk about coherently, and that these sorts of categories didn't help clarify our knowlege.
...and now you slide away from offering a description of a purely stochastic and lawlike process leading to bio-function – after you’ve imagined it being the explanatory equal of agency.
Here is what I wrote: That is as silly as me asking you to imagine your unknown type of conscious entity and then describe in detail how it manages to produce bio-function. Read this carefully: Neither of us can describe anything in detail which is capable of generating the FSCI we see in biology.
Of course, my point in this is perfectly obvious. You havent even a conceptual clue of a lawlike and stochastic process that could lead to bio-function, and as a placemat for that emptiness, your only reply to this is to misprepresent ID proponents and add to their arguments what they do not argue.
You haven't even a conceptual clue of an unlawlike and non-stochastic process that could lead to bio-function, and as a placemat for that emptiness, your only reply to this is to mispresent my arguments.
For you to stand here and chastize ID proponents for not having the cajones to say “we don’t know” is a rich irony indeed. It is no less self-serving than anything else you’ve said.
I don't know, and neither do you. CJYman,
aiguy: You could imagine some unknown type of conscious entity capable of creating first life, but I could imagine some unknown type of unconscious process that did it. CJY: Uhuh … sufficiently organized conscious brains are capable of producing FSCI. There are no examples of unconscious processes producing FSCI absent a conscious foresight in the causal chain. I don’t see what the problem is
First, we do not know if "sufficiently organized conscious brains" are capable of producing FSCI or not - that is an unsupportable metaphysical position called materialism (or physicalism), and it happens to be a very unpopular stance here at UD. In any event, all that we know is the working brains seem to be necessary for thought, but we don't know if they are sufficient. Second, if you would like to propose a version of ID theory that claims "a sufficiently organized conscious brain" was the cause of first life, please be my guest. I somehow doubt that this idea is quite as popular as Meyer's formulation :-)aiguy
August 12, 2010
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UB, just to put my 2 cents in, even though for some reason I am moderated and therefore never able to participate in real time... Your scenario with the bucket illustrates aiguy's point perfectly. We have experience with humans putting buckets on top of things so of course we are going to infer a person did it and not the wind. We do not have experience with disembodied minds (or anything else) putting buckets on things, so would not infer that a disembodied mind or other "intelligent entity" put it there. Likewise with the first life.zeroseven
August 12, 2010
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aiguy: "You could imagine some unknown type of conscious entity capable of creating first life, but I could imagine some unknown type of unconscious process that did it. " Uhuh ... sufficiently organized conscious brains are capable of producing FSCI. There are no examples of unconscious processes producing FSCI absent a conscious foresight in the causal chain. I don't see what the problem is.CJYman
August 12, 2010
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Aiguy, So even in principle, if we walk outside and find a mop bucket perched precariously on top of the mailbox and I say that "someone put it there" and you say "no" of course the wind and gravity did it - you then can suggest you are not obligated to explain your position because I am unable to tell you the shoe color of unknown conscious entity my explaination requires? I find that intersting. It must be a very comfortable corner of reality for you. First you decline to say what immaterial realities you are open to, and now you slide away from offering a description of a purely stochastic and lawlike process leading to bio-function - after you've imagined it being the explanatory equal of agency. Of course, my point in this is perfectly obvious. You havent even a conceptual clue of a lawlike and stochastic process that could lead to bio-function, and as a placemat for that emptiness, your only reply to this is to misprepresent ID proponents and add to their arguments what they do not argue. For you to stand here and chastize ID proponents for not having the cajones to say "we don't know" is a rich irony indeed. It is no less self-serving than anything else you've said.Upright BiPed
August 12, 2010
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aiguy: "If you (like Dembski) merely talk about probabilistic analysis that show “unguided” or “blind” (dualistic notions, both) processes being unable to produce what we observe, then I will be right." Of course you're right that the mathematical analysis only shows that a random set of laws will not produce FSCI. That's what I already stated and that is what the ID theorists also state. You must have missed that second part where I included, and the ID theorists include an inference to complete the ID Theory. What you are stating boils down to ... I understand that we experience that "x" is utilized in the generation of "y" but I don't like that so I'm going to say that there must also be "z" that can produce "y". Well then, go ahead and provide your case, but science can only deals with what we presently know, not pure imagination of what may or may not exist. A scientist then provides an inference into what most likely occurred or existed in the past based on our uniform and repeated experience of presently acting cause and effect. As I've stated before that's merely the limitations of science. So, yes, ID Theory does provide a no-go theorem akin to the no-go theorem re: the Laws of Thermodynamics and the impossibility of perpetual motion free energy machines. But ID goes beyond and offers an inference which I've already explained many times before and you have not yet negated. In fact, referencing the inference to the conscious definition of foresight, you seem to not want to respond to my questions of whether you experience foresight as I have defined it, if the engineer can produce complex circuitry (FSCI) without foresight as I have defined it, or if you can provide an example of FSCI being generated absent foresight (as I have defined it) in its causal chain. So there is really not much more that can be said and I'm still really not sure where your problem with ID Theory lies.CJYman
August 12, 2010
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UB, Sorry - I missed this:
I’m sorry, you are at an ID forum and suggest you believe in existence of the immaterial, then when asked about it, you think the question has to do with what you consider “irrelevant” or “unimportant”.
I suggested that I "believe in the immaterial"? Sorry, what is it that I said that gave you that impression? I actually think that talk about "natural vs. supernatural" and "material vs. immaterial" just confuses the issues. Instead, I try to adopt the same realist position as the ID authors I read, which entails that there exists a real world which we can know through our uniform and repeated experience. Whether or not what we experience is material or immaterial, natural or supernatural, I really couldn't say without a great deal of philosophical work to define these terms... and I'm just not interested in doing that.aiguy
August 12, 2010
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UB,
AIG: You could imagine some unknown type of conscious entity capable of creating first life, but I could imagine some unknown type of unconscious process that did it. UB: Please do.
Ok, I just imagined it.
I have a copy of Dr Abel’s work sitting here in front of me, and I would be interested how you get to bio-function by purely lawlike and stochastic processes. Please add the appropriate detail. Thanks.
Eh??? I said I was imagining an unknown type of unconscious process... so how in the world could I describe it in detail? That is as silly as me asking you to imagine your unknown type of conscious entity and then describe in detail how it manages to produce bio-function! (Don't forget to describe how this imaginary Designer can be so brainy if it doesn't have a brain, or how it can be so handy if it doesn't have any hands!) Nobody knows how human beings manage to produce FSCI, and nobody knows if anything besides human beings (or arguably some other animals) can do it, and nobody knows if there are other unknown types of processes that can do it. (Obviously random-generation-and-test algorithms do produce FSCI, but I am not convinced that this is the whole story behind biological evolution, even though most biologists think just that).aiguy
August 12, 2010
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"You could imagine some unknown type of conscious entity capable of creating first life, but I could imagine some unknown type of unconscious process that did it." Please do. I have a copy of Dr Abel's work sitting here in front of me, and I would be interested how you get to bio-function by purely lawlike and stochastic processes. Please add the appropriate detail. Thanks.Upright BiPed
August 12, 2010
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CJYMan,
So then apparently, you’ve exposed your ignorance three times since Dembski and Marks do not purport to use math to show that evolutionary theory can not account for what it claims to explain. Their results, after all, are based on the very operation of evolutionary algorithms which can be programmed to produce whatever it is the programmer wishes. You should actually read their work, especially since Dembski no longer argues, in principle, against a Darwinian theory of evolution. Instead, he sees even that type of evolution to be inherently teleological. You should read what he has recently written for EIL.
I'm well aware of Dembski's changing rhetorical strategies. I have said here that the math Dembski uses is about evolutionary theory, and has nothing at all to do with the claim that a conscious being existed and created first life. If you think I'm wrong, please give us a hint as to what sort of mathematical analysis might be of service in that regard. If you (like Dembski) merely talk about probabilistic analysis that show "unguided" or "blind" (dualistic notions, both) processes being unable to produce what we observe, then I will be right. Note that it is very hard to argue against ID of course, because just about every person on this board and every published ID proponent has radically different notions of what this "theory" entails. What I am arguing is this: We have no empirically-based reason to think that a conscious being existed prior to - and was responsible for creating - the first living organism. When you (or Dembski) suggest that "evolution may be teleogical", that requires a good deal of clarification of course. By teleogical one may be referring merely to a process that incorporates negative feedback to correct toward some set-point, having nothing to do with sentience or general problem-solving abilities at all (i.e. radically different from our intuitive notions of intelligent, which entail conscious awareness).
The measurements that EIL is concerned with provide support for the hypothesis that law+chance absent foresight will not produce evolutionary algorithms.
Exactly. This has nothing to do with demonstrating the existence of a conscious entity that created life. This is exactly what I mean.
The earlier measurements (FSCI) are more general in their application and in our repeat and uniform experience are connected to what we experience as foresight (but of course you’ll neither negate nor confirm this as I’ve seen countless times before). Furthermore, neither FSCI nor evolutionary algorithms are seen to be produced absent foresight in the causal chain.
There are two things you might mean by "foresight" here. The first is the experience of conscious awareness of future goals that human beings experience. The second is an algorithm that incorporates information pertaining to specific search targets. There is no known connection between these two senses of the word, even though you and Dembski pretend that there is.
Furthermore, the math that we are referencing deals with a chance assemblage of laws and provides evidence that a chance assemblage of laws (one without any end target — “blind” if you will), will produce either FSCI nor an evolutionary algorithm. Put the math together with our uniform and repeat experience and you get an inference no less as effective and strong as the inference to past evolution or the Big Bang.
I really don't think I can make this any more clear than this: Let's assume that Dembski, using flawless math, has proved conclusively that no lawlike mechanism that anyone has ever thought of could in principle account for the FSCI we observe. OK? Now, if that is the case, what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be we do not know what caused it. You could imagine some unknown type of conscious entity capable of creating first life, but I could imagine some unknown type of unconscious process that did it. You think it was conscious because humans (and other animals) are conscious; I think it wasn't conscious because it wasn't a human (or other animal). You might be right, and I might be right. If there was any science to settle the question, we could decide... but there isn't. But, you should already know and understand this.aiguy
August 12, 2010
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Aiguy, I'm sorry, you are at an ID forum and suggest you believe in existence of the immaterial, then when asked about it, you think the question has to do with what you consider "irrelevant" or "unimportant". I'm sure you are wise in "passing" on the question.Upright BiPed
August 12, 2010
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