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Darwin skeptic focuses on the repeated evolution of the camera eye

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The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms

Robert F. Shedinger, religion prof at Luther College in Iowa and author of The Mystery of Evolutionary Mechanisms: Darwinian Biology’s Grand Narrative of Triumph and the Subversion of Religion, offered a series of reflective posts at ENST, analyzing a Darwinian biology text. His last one focused on the eye:

In my previous post analyzing Strickberger’s Evolution, a prominent textbook by Brian K. Hall and Benedikt Hallgrimsson, I focused on the phenomenon of convergent evolution. One of the most amazing examples of convergence is the repeated evolution of the camera eye. I will begin this final post by considering Strickberger’s treatment of eye evolution along with comments on a few other problematic aspects of the textbook.

On eye evolution, Hall and Hallgrimsson write:

“As explained by the process of convergent evolution, the structural similarity of squid and vertebrate eyes does not come from an ancestral visual structure in a recent common ancestor of mollusks and vertebrates, but rather from convergent evolution as similar selective pressures led to similar organs that enhance visual acuity. Such morphological convergences may have arisen independently in numerous other animal lineages subject to similar selective visual pressures. “

But how could a similar series of mutations of the sort necessary to produce similarly structured eyes in different lineages occur so many times independently if the mutations are randomly produced? Hall and Hallgrimsson are not bothered by this question, but in order to convince the reader that such a thing is possible, they appeal to the well-known work of Dan-Eric Nilsson and Susanne Pelger.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

But the textbook authors ignore the caveats, he tells us. He concludes,

In this post and the five that preceded it I have tried to highlight some of the more egregious ways Strickberger’s Evolution fundamentally distorts the science of evolutionary biology in service to its real intention to indoctrinate students into the Darwinian worldview. Clearly this textbook is not alone. Many of the errors and distortions outlined in this series of posts could be found in many other evolutionary biology textbooks.

Robert F. Shedinger, “Squeezing Out the Mystery: Final Comments on Strickberger’s Evolution” at Evolution News and Science Today: (August 19, 2020)

Here’s a question: How many people would study biology with interest if we took the Darwin out of it and said, learn what the natural world of life is like without all these theories of how it came to be that way? Who would still be interested?

See also: Darwin skeptic Robert Shedinger calls out Paul Davies

Comments
. You know, I think just I remembered posting a You Tube video to UD a while back. I think it was a link to the song Stimela (the S. African coal train), by South African dissident and musician Hugh Masekela, upon hearing of his death. His trumpet work on this track is beyond belief. Thankfully I was able to meet him and see him perform before his passing. Something tells me this is not what JVL had in mind in his stunt. :)Upright BiPed
August 30, 2020
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“JVL, UB is a longtime, able contributor, we only wish we would hear more from him.” Ditto!! Vividvividbleau
August 30, 2020
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. ES and KF, Thank you both. Thank you for your kind words. There is no need for you to involve yourself. JVL has communicated through his comments that there is no length he will not go in order to defend his ideology from science and reason. He has already tried repeatedly to manufacture false narratives about me, and he will do the same to you. Here’s a good one: JVL: … his Gish-Gallop of stuff. Some of which is just youtube clips. lol If there is anything I might be associated with, it is certainly not for walking away from a good argument. And YouTube? I am not certain I have ever posted a YouTube clip in my life, ever. These things are just complete fabrications, divorced from reality. He wants me to shut up.Upright BiPed
August 30, 2020
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If I agreed to your characterisation of the genetic code as being irreducible then I made a mistake.
JVL, there is no such thing as a symbol without a constraint. It is the presence of a constraint that establishes the symbol. It is the presence of a constraint that allows us to know that any given arrangement of matter is a symbol, or not. They are irreducible and inseparable. Without one, the other does not exist. You read the research. You know this to be universally true. This is another snapshot of a man on his back foot, in utter denial of recorded science and history.Upright BiPed
August 30, 2020
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. JVL, I asked you why you apply a double standard in your reasoning. Your answer quite literally began with “Because”. Because? Q: Why do you insist on using a logical fallacy to defend yourself? A: Because! Good grief JVL, the only thing that can follow “because” in the defense of logical fallacy is a fallacious justification. How does this escape you? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And what is it that follows?
“Because there is no plausible designer available.”
Oh my. The product of the fallacy. That’s why you do it. You just told me the reason you use a fallacious double-standard is because of the product it gives you. Q: Why do you insist on a double standard, where a singlularly unique phenomena (which is both physically measurable and exclusively indentifiable) provides an unambiguous inference to an act by a previously unknown intelligence in one instance, but is immediately denied that status in another instance. A: Because it allows me to deny an unknown intelligence in the second instance. Q: But since both intelligences are previously unknown, the inference — based on being a universal correlate of intelligence — that is judged as valid in the first instance must also be judged as valid in the second, doesn’t it? A: No it doesn’t. Q: Why? A: Because there is no evidence of the second.Upright BiPed
August 30, 2020
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JVL:
Well how do those ion generated electrical charges affect mutations?
I never said they did. However we are aware of SENSORS. We are also aware that cells communicate. Nerves operate when a threshold potential difference is reached and exceeded. The built-in responses would be like that- sense an input and react
You’re happy with: it was designed and stop asking questions.
No, that is the infant in you speaking. How many times do I have to tell you that there is more work to do? How many times do I have to tell you it has to do with resources? Resources that are being wasted on the loser paradigm of materialistic/ unguided evolution? Scientists are specialists. These new questions are for a new breed of scientist open to answering them. JVL expects ID to have all of the answers. The science of ID is in the detection and study of design in nature. For the most part it involves things that are above our capabilities to reproduce. We don't need to answer your infantile questions, JVL. Given the resources they will all be fleshed out in due time.ET
August 30, 2020
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Holy Cow! JVL thinks that ID has to have ALL of the answers before it can be considered science. All the while his side has NOTHING but the blatant denial of the design inference. Earth to JVL- That is what science is for- to help us figure out the design. We START with the design inference. "Built-in responses to environmental cues" is observed via epigenetics, as well as other traits such as anti-freeze and nylon breakdown. What we know, right now, is that there isn't any evidence that nature can produce coded information processing systems. From there it is simple deduction that there is more to living organisms than meets the eye. Blind chemicals don't know how to edit and splice. They don't care about errors nor correcting them. Heck they are fine being a rock. Given that, plus what we know about software and evolution by means of telic processes, we know 2 more things- intervention may not be required and the actions inside of a cell make sense. As does our failure to produce life in a lab. And I will remind you that YOURS is the mechanistic "theory". And yet you have nothing.ET
August 30, 2020
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Kairosfocus: ES and I are physicists with some familiarity with info-comms technologies. You're a physicist? By what standard?JVL
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EugeneS: Who are ‘we’? We are all here discussing things on equal ground, are we not? We is the general scientific community. So far you haven’t presented anything worthy of being classified as an argument. You simply don’t have a case. All you do is appeal to authority. The only difference is that earlier you pointed to a ‘majority of researchers’, now you include yourself in it. It doesn’t work this way, I am afraid. You need to seriously engage and dismantle ID. Hey, it's fine with me if you guys don't even try to look for more real physical data to support your inference. I'm good with that. It is you who needs to show how exactly complex function arises without intelligence. ID has an argument. To falsify it, you need to show that functional complexity can arise spontaneously either theoretically or prove it in a test tube. It doesn’t work any other way. You want the whole planet to take your view as the default meaning that the unguided crowd has to prove their point. I think they have proved their point and that means that for you to overturn that you have to come up with some extraordinary data and results. It is a strange thing to say because how can you be sure? Second, I consider UB’s comments here at this blog among the strongest and I personally read them with great interest. I can tell you more. Some of his posts I even copy for my records. So, technically, I think this proves you wrong. After years and years of seeing Upright Biped's post I can say: a) for the most part the only positive responses are things like: "Great post" or "Well put" and b) most critics can't even be bothered to respond to his Gish-Gallop of stuff. Some of which is just youtube clips. Just because you take them seriously doesn't mean anyone else does.JVL
August 30, 2020
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ET: Earth to JVL- I do NOT care who disagrees with me. The fact remains that you and yours still have NOTHING but lies, bluffs and a ton of meaningless promissory notes. Are you going to answer the questions I put to you? The claim that I am misinterpreting the paper is pure cowardice. The fact remains that probability arguments exist precisely because you and yours have nothing. Are you going to answer the questions I put to you? Saying the genetic code was intelligently designed is a start down the right path. We can only understand design, like Stonehenge, by studying it as such. But again, you couldn’t conduct a scientific investigation if your life depended on it. Are you going to answer the questions I put to you? Without ID all you have to explain what we observe is sheer dumb luck. That is untestable and as such outside of science. Are you going to answer the questions I put to you? JVL’s scientists with all their experience still don’t even know what determines biological form! They don’t even use BWE to guide any of their research. Are you going to answer the questions I put to you? Clearly not. You can't explain how your proposed system of built-in variation works. So we don't have nothing to consider because you haven't been able to give anyone anything to look at.JVL
August 30, 2020
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JVL, UB is a longtime, able contributor, we only wish we would hear more from him. As for his core point, he is well researched and credibly correct. Your non-design answer for why there is alphanumeric, algorithmic code in the heart of the cell is ____, and why is it credible ____ ? We await your answers. KF PS: BTW, ES and I are physicists with some familiarity with info-comms technologies.kairosfocus
August 30, 2020
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JVL [To UB] ==Nobody actually reads your posts. Really.== It is a strange thing to say because how can you be sure? Second, I consider UB's comments here at this blog among the strongest and I personally read them with great interest. I can tell you more. Some of his posts I even copy for my records. So, technically, I think this proves you wrong. I think you are just being too partial. I am really sorry to find out you can write things like this...EugeneS
August 30, 2020
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JVL ==Don’t whine and moan and complain that we’re not taking you seriously.== Who are 'we'? We are all here discussing things on equal ground, are we not? So far you haven't presented anything worthy of being classified as an argument. You simply don't have a case. All you do is appeal to authority. The only difference is that earlier you pointed to a 'majority of researchers', now you include yourself in it. It doesn't work this way, I am afraid. You need to seriously engage and dismantle ID. It is you who needs to show how exactly complex function arises without intelligence. ID has an argument. To falsify it, you need to show that functional complexity can arise spontaneously either theoretically or prove it in a test tube. It doesn't work any other way.EugeneS
August 30, 2020
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JVL's scientists with all their experience still don't even know what determines biological form! They don't even use BWE to guide any of their research.ET
August 30, 2020
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Earth to JVL- I do NOT care who disagrees with me. The fact remains that you and yours still have NOTHING but lies, bluffs and a ton of meaningless promissory notes. The claim that I am misinterpreting the paper is pure cowardice. The fact remains that probability arguments exist precisely because you and yours have nothing. Saying the genetic code was intelligently designed is a start down the right path. We can only understand design, like Stonehenge, by studying it as such. But again, you couldn't conduct a scientific investigation if your life depended on it. Without ID all you have to explain what we observe is sheer dumb luck. That is untestable and as such outside of science.ET
August 30, 2020
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Querius: Why do you assume computer viruses are an analogy? In both cases, it’s simply information and instructions encoded in two different media for two different environments. Here’s a paper that once again refutes your position, which is firmly anchored in ignorance: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci725s2c/archive/termpapers/gnotoadmojo.pdf The viruses mentioned in the paper are programmed to reproduce with variation to avoid detection. The methods of variation are predetermined. The human genome is not 'programmed' to reproduce with variation; the variations are 'mistakes' or ''errors'. So, okay, some viruses do descend with variation but that variation is built into the system unlike live, in the world, genomes. Computer viruses only 'live' in designed systems; real world genomes live and reproduce with variation in undesigned systems. Computer viruses are designed to exploit particular aspects of their environment; real world genomes can alter their approach if the right variation is generated. Computer viruses do not create whole new classes and family of viruses. They do not learn to exploit new food sources or environments. It's an interesting analogy but it only goes so far.JVL
August 30, 2020
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Truthfreedom: To understand “reality” (and its quantitative “aspects”): do we need a subject (let’s call him it meat-robot errr… human) with a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus? Yes/ No. Nah, you can have a purely spiritual being like God who understands everything. I bet she's a really good mathematician as well. “Apparently”? What does that mean? They can do mathematics or they can not do mathematics. It is an either/ or question. You should look up some of the research sometime; they seem to have a basic grasp of greater and lesser quantities at least. What is the alternative? The atheist’s god “nothingness”? “Nothingness” created “everything”? Where should I go to worship “nothingness”? Do what you like, the question was directed at ET who, typically, avoided answering it. He doesn't like admitting he believes in Gad for some reason. `i don't see the problem myself, lots of excellent scientists are devote Christians or Muslims or Jews or Janes or Buddhists or Zoroastrians or Hindus or whatever. Who cares? Let's just judge them based on the quality of their work. Did you figure out what a PDF was yet?JVL
August 30, 2020
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ET: Generated by IONs, and stored inside the cell- all over. That is how our nervous systems works- a potential difference caused by ions. Really? Well how do those ion generated electrical charges affect mutations? It is a FACT that probability arguments exist only because you and yours have nothing. It is a fact that no one on this planet knows how blind and mindless processes could have produced the genetic code and all of its components. You don't know how the genetic code was produced either do you? "Oh, it was designed" doesn't mean you know how it was done. But at least the mainstream biologists are exploring ways it might have happened. They would like to know that. You're happy with: it was designed and stop asking questions. It is also a fact that “Waiting for TWO Mutations” refutes Dawkins’ claim of cumulative selection. And cumulative selection was the only posited mechanism capable of producing the changes required for universal common descent. That is clearly not the case since many, many mainstream biologists have considered that paper since ID proponents raised it as some kind of show stopper and a) they disagree with you and b) they are happily still working on stuff you say cannot be true. So, your possible misinterpretation of one paper vs the years and years of experience from thousands upon thousands of biological researchers . . . hmmm, what should I pick?JVL
August 30, 2020
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JVL @123,
Do they [viruses] exhibit common descent with variation? Are later generations better adapted to exploit their environment? The analogy only works so far.
The answer to both questions is yes, they can and do, depending on the virus. Why do you assume computer viruses are an analogy? In both cases, it's simply information and instructions encoded in two different media for two different environments. Here's a paper that once again refutes your position, which is firmly anchored in ignorance: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci725s2c/archive/termpapers/gnotoadmojo.pdf You could at least have done a miniscule amount research before posting yet another false statement. -QQuerius
August 30, 2020
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95 JVL
PaV: Who won that battle of ideas? I think we all know. JVL: Nope. You still have not shown any kind of function or purpose for large swaths of the human genome. You haven’t. You dance and dodge around the numbers without addressing the hard science.
Why is "coding" the only "function" allowed for DNA?
Non-coding DNA does not provide instructions for making proteins. Scientists once thought noncoding DNA was “junk,” with no known purpose. However, it is becoming clear that at least some of it is integral to the function of cells, particularly the control of gene activity. https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/basics/noncodingdna#:~:text=Noncoding%20DNA%20does%20not%20provide,the%20control%20of%20gene%20activity.
Truthfreedom
August 30, 2020
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ET: In the beginning, designed the universe and intelligent agencies to observe it. JVL: Sounds like the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God. Is that right?
What is the alternative? The atheist's god "nothingness"? "Nothingness" created "everything"? Where should I go to worship "nothingness"?Truthfreedom
August 30, 2020
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Mathematics is just a tool for dealing with quantitative aspects of reality. It can only answer questions that are appropriate for its approach.
To understand "reality" (and its quantitative "aspects"): do we need a subject (let's call him it meat-robot errr... human) with a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus? Yes/ No.
Apparently, some animals can do some basic mathematics so perhaps you should define your terms.
"Apparently"? What does that mean? They can do mathematics or they can not do mathematics. It is an either/ or question.Truthfreedom
August 30, 2020
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JVL, always the infant:
Where are the electrical charges generated and stored?
Generated by IONs, and stored inside the cell- all over. That is how our nervous systems works- a potential difference caused by ions. But all that is moot as you have been caught lying and bluffing again. It is a FACT that probability arguments exist only because you and yours have nothing. It is a fact that no one on this planet knows how blind and mindless processes could have produced the genetic code and all of its components. It is also a fact that "Waiting for TWO Mutations" refutes Dawkins' claim of cumulative selection. And cumulative selection was the only posited mechanism capable of producing the changes required for universal common descent. So you lose, regardless of anything else. Your only recourse to to get belligerent with respect to science and Intelligent Design.ET
August 30, 2020
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Upright Biped: Yes, I know. You conceded that ”the genetic code is indeed an irreducible system of symbolic representations and non-integrable constraints”. That is why I wrote those particular words. If I agreed to your characterisation of the genetic code as being irreducible then I made a mistake. Since there was no designer around at the time (that we know of) then it must have arose through unguided, natural processes some of which we seemingly haven't fully grasped. Why the sudden double standard? Because there is no plausible designer available. How can I even contemplate design when there doesn't seem to have been anyone around to do the designing? And it would have to be a pretty slam-duck bit of symbolic content in an interstellar signal for me and the folks at SETI to accept that it came from an intelligent being. There have been some false alarms in the past because people have been very, very careful not to jump the gun. I think you have jumped the gun inferring design in the genomic code. The scientific community has only been truly coming to terms with it for a few decades so it's safe to assume we do not understand it fully yet. We certainly have not exhausted all the possible work into ways it could have arose. (Yes, I know, you think the research has hit a dead end but that's not true. If it was true then no one would be doing any work in the field but they are.) And, on top of that, you've got zero outside, physical evidence that there was any kind of intelligent being around . . . when exactly? Who did what exactly? When Lynn Margolis came up with some whacky ideas that were roundly dismissed by her peers she didn't just keep making the same argument over and over again; she looked for more evidence. When people initially heard of plate tectonics they thought: what a load of rubbish. But the proponents didn't just repeat themselves; they looked for more evidence. Einstein's theory or relativity was controversial and someone had to look for evidence that it was true. You can't just expect the scientific community to just roll over because you have some strong conviction that something is true. If people aren't accepting what you say then look for more evidence, different kinds of evidence. For some reason the ID community hasn't grasped this and just keeps saying the same thing over and over and over again. You haven't had any new ideas or discoveries in a couple of decades. Even Dr Dembski has given up on arguing for ID. He never even published some of his mathematical work in a peer-reviewed journal.JVL
August 30, 2020
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PaV: How could you “know” this? Maybe some kind of AI algorithm was designed that performed the needed upgrade. Didn’t you dismiss this possibility? We know that didn't happen. Why are you arguing about things you know did not happen? And I’m not trying to make you “slip up” and look “stupid.” I’m trying to get you to see that we, as humans, understand what the work of intelligent beings looks like. Sigh. You look at DNA and think: that looks like the work of a mind. Many, many, many others have looked at DNA and concluded that it's NOT the creation of an intelligent being. So: your intuition vs decades of research and work by specialists in the field . . As to “junk” DNA, you should look at what is being discovered every day and especially what the ENCODE project–with recent results, shows about so-called “junk” DNA–most of it has some kind of function. Their project is one of discovering it. And they’ve reached the point where they now presume that if they haven’t identified a function for some part of the genome, that it’s only a matter of time before one turns up. We'll see. And, as well you know, not everyone agrees with the ENCODE projects characterisation of parts of the human genome. Being transcribed does not mean having a biological function. Yes, but what if the total number of particles in the entire Universe were 10^60, but the improbability of an event is 10^250? How do you get around that problem? I'd say your probabilities were wrong. When it comes to statistics, if you want to completely gut improbabilities all you have to do is to take any number of independent events and simply say that their dependent events and you go from multiplying improbabilities to adding them. This is Dawkin’s little trick, one that doesn’t hold up to rigor, with his Blind Watchmaker and Mt. Improbability. Uh huh. I don't agree.JVL
August 30, 2020
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Querius: Not to mention your efforts at convincing us that code cannot reproduce itself in @79. Gosh, haven’t you ever heard of “computer viruses” that spread copies of themselves over the internet? Or do I have to define what I mean by reproduce and internet? Do they exhibit common descent with variation? Are later generations better adapted to exploit their environment? The analogy only works so far.JVL
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Truthfreedom: To gain knowledge of the world (e.g. understanding/ using mathematics) we do need a RELIABLE cognitive apparatus. Yes/ No. Just make your point without all this verbal dancing about. How would you design an experiment/s to include all mutations since the beginning of life? Couldn't be done. Obviously. (And, why should I read a PDF?) Did you figure out what a PDF is yet or do I have to explain that to you?JVL
August 30, 2020
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ET: in the cells. Via electrical charges. Via environmental changes, as per their name. And the evidence for their existence, epigenetics (for one) are discussed in scientific papers and textbooks. Really? Where are the electrical charges generated and stored? What triggers their release specifically? In the beginning, designed the universe and intelligent agencies to observe it. Sounds like the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God. Is that right?JVL
August 30, 2020
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UB: JVL has previously affirmed that the genetic code is indeed an irreducible system of symbolic representations and non-integrable constraints, just as predicted by John Von Neumann and experimentally confirmed by Crick, Watson, Brenner, Hoagland, Zamecnik, Nirenberg, and others. JVL: But what I did not admit, based on the comments by Dr Pattee, was that the systems under question were necessarily due to the influence of an intelligent agent.
Yes, I know. You conceded that ”the genetic code is indeed an irreducible system of symbolic representations and non-integrable constraints”. That is why I wrote those particular words.
You need to stop trying to promulgate the same approach over and over and over again.
You think I should stop talking about the documented science and history regarding semiosis at the origin of life? Thank you for your counsel on the matter, but that’s probably not going to happen.
It’s not working.
Welcome to the world of symbolic representation and irreducible complexity at the origin of life.
Nobody actually reads your posts.
JVL, you have enthusiastically endorsed the reception of a narrow-band radio signal from outer space as a valid inference to an unknown intelligence acting somewhere in the cosmos. This well-known SETI inference is based on the universal observation that narrow-band radio signals are only associated with intelligent activity, and this inference is clearly made independent of having any additional knowledge such as “who, what, when, or where” the radio signal comes from. Even so, if there were any questions whatsoever regarding the validity of the inference, those questions would be immediately abandoned if genuine symbolic content was found encoded within that signal. In other words, it is specifically the presence of symbolic content that would provide science with a complete and indeed inescapable confirmation of a previously unknown intelligence. Other than pure ideological bias, what is it that could possibly explain the obvious contradiction when you then turn around to claim that the encoded symbolic content in the gene system (which was specifically predicted to exist as a logical necessity prior to its experimental confirmation in the 1950s and 1960s) is in fact no inference to intelligent activity? Why the sudden double standard?Upright BiPed
August 29, 2020
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Truthfreedom: (And, why should I read a PDF?) Too funny! Someone who says they know about probability and statistics and thinks a PDF is a document!! Tells me all I need to know really.JVL
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