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Determinism for Thee but Not for Me

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A professor sums up a lecture on the evolutionary explanation for why religion has been ubiquitous in every human culture:

Professor:  So, in summary, every human culture going back thousands of years has been religious because religion is either itself an adaptive behavior or it is a spandrel, a byproduct of the evolution of some other trait upon which natural selection acted.  Under the first view, religion itself was adaptive, perhaps because it enhances cooperation and cohesion within groups, and group membership in turn provides benefits which can enhance an individual’s chances for survival and reproduction.  Under the second view, perhaps religion evolved as a byproduct of adaptive selection of some other trait, although it is not clear what that other trait might have been.

Student:  Thank you for that explanation professor.  I wonder if I might ask a question.

Professor:  Of course.

Student:  Thank you.  If I understand correctly, the evolutionary process you described is fundamentally deterministic, and religion arose in all human cultures as a result of that purely deterministic process.

Professor:  Yes, that’s correct. 

Student:  But I don’t understand.  As sophisticated modern people, we understand that religious beliefs about supernatural beings and a spirit world and whatnot are false.  Why did evolution select for a false belief? 

Professor:  Excellent question.  Yes, it is true that evolution selected for a false belief in this case.  You see, evolution selects for survival value, not for truth.  Evolution may well select for a totally false belief system if that false belief system confers a survival benefit, and in the case of religion it did exactly that.  Deterministic evolutionary processes in a sense foisted a false belief on the overwhelming majority of humans throughout thousands of years of history because that false belief system made them more fit in the Darwinian sense of that word.

Student:  So we know for a certain fact that deterministic evolutionary forces shape our belief systems.  And we know for a certain fact that any particular belief system may be, to use your word, foisted on us by evolution even if it is false.  This is fascinating.  Until very recently, almost everyone’s most cherished and strongly held beliefs were exactly of the false-belief-foisted-on-them-by-evolution variety.

Professor:  Yes, that is indeed fascinating. 

Student:  It is also deeply troubling.

Professor:  What are you talking about?

Student:  For us moderns, especially the elites like those who teach at and attend this university, scientific materialism has largely supplanted religious belief as the foundation of our outlook on the world. 

Professor:  Yes, that is true, but I have no idea why that would be troubling to you.

Student:  That’s not the troubling part.  What troubles me is that if we know that our modern belief system is caused, like everything else, by purely deterministic forces, how can we know our belief system is not just as false as the religious beliefs we scoff at?  How do we know that evolution has not foisted yet another false belief system on us, in this case scientific materialism, because it is adaptive even though it is false?

Professor:  Let not your heart be troubled.  We can know that scientific materialism is true because we have sound evidentiary reasons for believing it. 

Student:  I don’t understand.  I know Christians who say they have good reasons based on their exhaustive review of the evidence to believe what they believe. 

Professor:  Yes, yes.  But they have deluded themselves.  Their evidence is not as good as the evidence we have that supports science and materialism. 

Student:  I think you missed the point I was making.  You said that our belief systems are the result of purely deterministic processes.  Either that is true or it is not.  If it is true, then evolution forces us to believe in scientific materialism just as it formerly forced theists to believe in religion.  The very essence of determinism is that it does not allow us to choose based on any ground, including an evaluation of the evidence.  And this is what troubles me.  I read one of the Christian philosophers.  He said that if my thoughts are utterly determined by material forces, why should I believe them to be true?  And after listening to your lecture today, I begin to take his point.  Why indeed should we prefer one deterministically caused belief over another?  After all, we say that we know that throughout history, the vast majority of people held a false deterministically caused belief.

Professor:  You aren’t listening to me.  We have good reasons to believe what we do.  Religious bumpkins don’t.

Student:  No, you aren’t listening to me.  Either determinism causes our beliefs or it does not.  By its very nature, determinism is an all-or-nothing proposition.  What gives us the right to say other people’s beliefs are mere evolutionary adaptations but not our own?  Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid.  It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it.

Comments
JVL:
Everyone who studies evolutionary theory understands how it works; you’re not putting anyone to shame.
There isn't any scientific theory of evolution to study. And chuckdarwin obviously doesn't understand how it works. You don't understand how it works.ET
December 13, 2021
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You need to go back and re-read my comment #10. It goes directly to the heart of your “deterministic evolutionary forces” select for false beliefs narrative
And immediately answered as bogus. But no response. Like the professor, you only provided specious claims. Essentially, you admitted Barry’s thesis is correct.
Maybe this is why Daniel Dennett called evolution a universal acid. It dissolves the very mind that purports to believe it
Case in point. I don’t really believe that you believe Darwinism is the basis of Evolution. No one could really given all the evidence against it and lack of evidence for it. Something else is at play here. It’s not just here but everywhere in the world and it’s not just professed belief in something that cannot possibly be true.jerry
December 13, 2021
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Barry Arrington @ 62
Well, here we are at comment 62. None of the Darwinists have challenged the OP. They all want to talk about something else. That is disappointing.
You need to go back and re-read my comment #10. It goes directly to the heart of your "deterministic evolutionary forces" select for false beliefs narrative.chuckdarwin
December 13, 2021
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The logical argument that materialism deprives materialists of any rational reason to believe materialism true is incontrovertible. Under materialism, they believe it true for no reason other than the same reason anyone believes anything: material forces have made them believe it. Unfortunately for materialists, materialism is not only logically untenable, it has been disproved by science. It is interesting to note, however, that the case for idealism is similarly incontrovertible, not only logically, but also from the evidence. Yet, many here who recognize and accept the case against materialism refuse or are unable to recognize the case against dualism, probably for the same reason materialist refuse to accept the argument and evidence against them: a priori ideological commitments.William J Murray
December 13, 2021
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Barry A: Well, here we are at comment 62. None of the Darwinists have challenged the OP. They all want to talk about something else. That is disappointing. Fine, I'll stop being polite and try to answer questions posed to me. Just remember when Querius and Jerry claim I cut and run that I was just thinking of the OP.JVL
December 13, 2021
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Ram @69,
Maybe when they figure out how body plans work they will feel a bit more confident.
I don't know if anyone has any ideas on how radically different body plans arose other than "there was this Cambrian explosion and, ta-da, different body plans somehow deterministically arose!" These body plans include one with radial rather than bilateral symmetry and a hydraulic system around a ring canal that powers the creature for locomotion and gas exchange, suction cups on its legs for grabbing onto food, lots of tiny pincers on its back, and eye spots at the ends of each arm. It has a heart that beats and can reproduce sexually or asexually. I wonder what sea stars evolved from. Oh, wait. They musta evolved deterministically from worms biting their tails. -QQuerius
December 12, 2021
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John Davison died in 2012, fyi.News
December 12, 2021
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Seversky @3, So what? Nevermind. --Ramram
December 12, 2021
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Barry: None of the Darwinists have challenged the OP Maybe when they figure out how body plans work they will feel a bit more confident. ;) --Ramram
December 12, 2021
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None of the Darwinists have challenged the OP. They all want to talk about something else. That is disappointing.
Well Darwinist are maybe born that way. Here is a comment form 15 years ago by John Davison. I assume he has passed away as he was old then. But he had a sharp pen.
There is as yet no theory of evolution. Theories are verified hypotheses. There are only utterly failed hypotheses like neoDarwinism and neoLamarckism and ones like the PEH which recognize that failure and have built upon it. To blindly equate evolution with Darwinism as you so obviously do is without a shred of justification. Every one of my sources was a convinced evolutionist and not one of them was a religious fanatic or a Darwinina chance worshipping atheist. It is you that ought to be reading the literature, not I. You seem to be totally oblivious to it. You are not alone. The evolutionary world is crawlng with like minded souls. That a Darwinian can still exist boggles my mind. I can only conclude that they were "born that way."
And
I repeat my challenge to demonstrate any two species living or dead for which one can be shown to be the ancestor of the other. Are you prepared to indicate whether it was the tiger that was ancestral to the lion or the reverse? I'll bet you aren't and I don't think anyone else is either. As far as can be ascertained, creative evolution is finished. If it were not we would see it in action. The world would be crawling with examples. So far no one has produced a single example. I eagerly await the first. If there is such an example I can guarantee that it was not produced by the accumulation of Mendelian alleles through natural selection. That has been demonstrated experimentally to be quite impossible. When carried too far it results in sterility, loss of fecundity and extinction.
jerry
December 12, 2021
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JVL, ChuckDarwin & Natural Selection. Suppose a laboratory with a thousand test tubes containing chemicals in different quantities. No two test tubes have the same content. The scientist is hoping that the content of one of the test tubes happens to be functional stuff. Obviously, each test tube has an equal chance of success. ** Enter JVL & ChuckDarwin both with hammers **. They offer to play the role of natural selection in order to, as they claim, increase the chance of success. “Think of the test tubes as organisms”, ChuckDarwin explains. “And our hammers as natural selection”, says JVL. Question: Given that the scientist is a true believer in evolution, would he accept their offer to have them smash a considerable amount of test tubes in order to increase the chance of finding functional chemical stuff?Origenes
December 12, 2021
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Why do people who don't believed in free will want to claim credit for their achievements? Yes, okay, it's a simple-minded question but - for us simple minds - where is the logic in benefiting from the very thing they think is intrinsically impossible?News
December 12, 2021
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Barry Arrington @62,
Well, here we are at comment 62. None of the Darwinists have challenged the OP. They all want to talk about something else. That is disappointing.
Point taken. The question is why does Darwinism stop the reductionism at itself. -QQuerius
December 12, 2021
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Bornagain @61, Thanks for the link to Dawkins serving his listeners with waffles for dinner! He doesn't understand computers or software, nor is he aware of recent research in neuroscience: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dont-delay/201106/free-wont-it-may-be-all-we-have-or-need
As Dr. Egnor succinctly put the situation that Darwinists are in with the reductive materialistic framework, ‘Materialist theories of the mind border on the insane.’
Indeed! This is relevant to the issue of free will and "free won't." https://mindmatters.ai/2020/03/how-a-neuroscientist-imaged-free-will-and-free-wont/ -QQuerius
December 12, 2021
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Origenes @59,
Orignenes, you are getting hopelessly confused.
Wow, hopelessly confused presumably leaves you trapped in a state of confusion. But don't worry too much about it, this judgment is from the same person who confused transpiration in plants with water absorption in plant roots and its transport in (primarily) the xylem.
Oh my, the knowledge I get from you is overwhelming. Thank you for telling me this.
I love your sarcasm. -QQuerius
December 12, 2021
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Well, here we are at comment 62. None of the Darwinists have challenged the OP. They all want to talk about something else. That is disappointing.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Chuckdarwin makes this rather interesting remark: "Orignenes, you are getting hopelessly confused,,," "Hopelessly confused" is a very interesting remark coming from someone who is supposedly defending evolutionary epistemology in this thread. If anyone has ever been hopelessly confused it is the person who believes that Darwinian evolution can ever give us a coherent account of our cognitive faculties. Darwinian evolution is simply a non-starter as to ever giving us a coherent account of our cognitive faculties. First and foremost, Darwinists, via their reductive materialistic framework, are forced to claim that consciousness itself is merely a 'neuronal illusion'.
Part II THE ILLUSION OF CONTROL Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. - Steven Pinker - Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University http://www.academia.edu/2794859/The_Brain_The_Mystery_of_Consciousness "There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.,,, - Alex Rosenberg - Professor of Philosophy Duke University - The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10 “that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” - Francis Crick – “The Astonishing Hypothesis” 1994
Yet if consciousness itself, (i.e. our subjective experience of the entire world), is but merely a 'neuronal illusion, then that, of necessity, renders everything else that we can possibly experience via our consciousness an illusion as well. As Rowan Williams asked Richard Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”
At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s
The claim that our sense of self, that is to say, our conscious experience, is just a neuronal illusion is simply self refuting nonsense. As David Bentley Hart explains in the following article, “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.”
The Illusionist – Daniel Dennett’s latest book marks five decades of majestic failure to explain consciousness. – 2017 Excerpt: “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.” – David Bentley Hart https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-illusionist
Obviously, in order to avoid the catastrophic epistemological failure that Darwinists are forced into with their reductive materialistic worldview, it is necessary to hold consciousness as primary and matter as derivative from consciousness. As Eugene Wigner explained, “The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied."
“The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists." – Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177.
In holding that consciousness must be primary in any definition of reality we may put forth, Eugene Wigner is in very good company,
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” - Max Planck (1858–1947), one of the primary founders of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” - Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.?
And it is not as if Christians do not have empirical evidence supporting their claim that Consciousness must be primary and matter derivative.,,, Quantum Mechanics, at literally every turn, empirically validates the 'common sense' fact that consciousness must be primary. Here are eight intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that all converge and show us that consciousness must precede material reality
1. Double Slit experiment, 2. Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, 3. as well as the recent confirmation of the Wigner's friend thought experiment, 4. Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, (Quantum Eraser, etc..) 5. Leggett’s Inequalities, 6. Quantum Zeno effect, 7. Quantum Information theory and the experimental realization of the Maxwell demon thought experiment, 8. and the recent closing of the Free Will loophole.
And putting all these lines of evidence from quantum mechanics together, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality (Jerry Coyne). or is an intrinsic property of material reality, (panpsychism, Philip Goff) 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality (Jerry Coyne). or is an intrinsic property of material reality, (panpsychism, Philip Goff), then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.
Thus in conclusion, we have (very) principled reasons for holding that consciousness must be primary in any definition of reality we may put forth. Moreover, we have multiple lines of empirical evidence from quantum mechanics that (very) strongly support the Christian Theist's claim that consciousness must precede material reality. One final note, it is highly ironic, even humorous, that Chuckdarwin, (who is supposedly defending evolutionary epistemology in this thread), would ever call anyone else 'hopelessly confused". As Dr. Egnor succinctly put the situation that Darwinists are in with the reductive materialistic framework, 'Materialist theories of the mind border on the insane.'
Atheist Philosopher Thinks “We Never Have Direct Access To Our Thoughts” Michael Egnor – July 20, 2016 Excerpt: Materialist theories of the mind border on the insane. If a man walks into a doctor’s office and says “I never have direct access to my thoughts and I have no first person point of view,” the man will be referred to a psychiatrist and may be involuntarily hospitalized until it is established that he is not a danger to himself or others. If the same guy walks into the philosophy department at Duke University, he gets tenure. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/07/atheist_philoso/
Verse:
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
bornagain77
December 12, 2021
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PS: Do I need to reiterate that the key issue is lawless oligarchy in its many guises over thousands of years? Lord Acton was right, power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely, great men are bad men.kairosfocus
December 12, 2021
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CD@
Random mutations do not “act on” anything.
In order for random mutations to take place there must be organisms. The collection of organisms not eliminated by NS, IOWs the organisms who are alive, is the domain where RM can take place. NS is in the business of continually shrinking this domain where RM 'can act on' / where RM can take place.
Mutations are mistakes in nucleotide sequencing. These mistakes can be neutral, beneficial or deleterious. Each mistake is a variation, and, ....
Oh my, the knowledge I get from you is overwhelming. Thank you for telling me this.Origenes
December 12, 2021
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Each mistake is a variation, and, like I said before, they occur continuously thus there is constant variability available within the genotype of even the most stable organisms.
Again this is genetics. No one has ever shown that this process led anywhere significant in terms of species change except for deterioration. This does lead to adaptation but again that is genetics. By the way there are over 50 different sources of variation in genetics that can be inherited from one generation to the next. You keep on assuming things that don’t exist.jerry
December 12, 2021
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JVL @ 49. BTW, those who support killing unborn babies are in company with those who supported killing Jews in at least one very important respect. IN both instances, those whom the government deemed it legal to kill were first deemed "lebensunwertes leben" (life unworthy of life). Think about that the next time you advocate for the "right" to kill human organisms in their mother's wombs. You are right there with the Nazi's defining those tiny humans as non-humans.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Origenes @ 44 Orignenes, you are getting hopelessly confused:
And second, the principle remains exactly the same. NS culls, eliminates, removes biological information and shrinks the domain for RM to act on — no matter the level NS operates on.
Random mutations do not "act on" anything. Mutations are mistakes in nucleotide sequencing. These mistakes can be neutral, beneficial or deleterious. Each mistake is a variation, and, like I said before, they occur continuously thus there is constant variability available within the genotype of even the most stable organisms.chuckdarwin
December 12, 2021
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JVL @ 49:
I’ll leave it up to the gathered observers as to whether or not killing Jews and allowing abortions is some kind of ideological equivalence. Legally we know what the answer is.
You don't know history. The holocaust violated no internal law of Germany. Abortion on demand through the moment of birth is legal in some states. Every segregated water fountain in the Jim Crow south was legal. Eugenics in the early to mid 20th century was legal. I could go on. "It's legal" is not the yardstick of moral rectitude that you seem to think it is.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2021
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Of course now we know that there is more than just natural selection. Evolution is the change of alles in a population, what accounts for the particular ‘direction’ of that change?
You are describing genetics not Evolution.
Strangely enough, no biologist claims that it is
They are calling genetics Evolution when they have no basis for such a claim. The biologists are the ones committing the fallacies. It’s easy to show how. Do you really believe they will admit to their fallacies? All they are doing is asserting genetics is Evolution when it is not. Assertions are not evidence. Not one of them can show why their assertions are true. There is no document on Earth that provides evidence for their assertions.jerry
December 12, 2021
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Jerry: Natural selection has nothing to do with Evolution. Anyone who claims it does is committing about 4-5 different fallacies. Variation alone cannot bring about evolution, there must be some process for 'selecting' what variations go on to be more prevalent. Of course now we know that there is more than just natural selection. Evolution is the change of alles in a population, what accounts for the particular 'direction' of that change? It is begging the question, fallacy of omission and several others. Again, repeat after me, genetics is not Evolution. Strangely enough, no biologist claims that it is.JVL
December 12, 2021
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we did not know the mechanism of evolution
We still don’t know. How many times do you repeat the same bogus statements. The more times you repeat a false statement does not make it any less still a false statement. Natural selection has nothing to do with Evolution. Anyone who claims it does is committing about 4-5 different fallacies. It is begging the question, fallacy of omission and several others. And then there is the other misunderstandings.
In fact, most dog breeds were created in the last few hundred years or less. It didn’t take long to separate the Chihuahua from the Great Dane. And I don’t think you’d find them breeding naturally.
This is genetics not Evolution. Genetics has nothing to do with Evolution. Again, repeat after me, genetics is not Evolution.jerry
December 12, 2021
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Origenes: Against all odds [thank you for helping out with this Multiverse!] random mutations come up with all sorts of perfectly viable organisms, and next natural selection steps in eliminating 99.9 % of the bunch. Again, if you don't want to discuss the actual claims and the data backing up those claims that's okay with me. But do not expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't deal with the real statements and evidence. Just flinging some numbers about doesn't cut it. You have to consider ALL the data, not just what like. Back to basics. Nope, natural selection acts on viable organisms. It cannot act on what is not alive. What can be more naturally selected than that which cannot survive? And, even then, only considering viable organisms, there is still plenty of variation. Look at the domestication of dogs in the last 2000 years. Look at the induced splitting of brassicas in the last 300 years. You just keep claiming things without offering data or evidence or studies or research. In fact, most dog breeds were created in the last few hundred years or less. It didn't take long to separate the Chihuahua from the Great Dane. And I don't think you'd find them breeding naturally.JVL
December 12, 2021
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JVL @
Natural selection first eliminates that which is not even viable.
Back to basics. Nope, natural selection acts on viable organisms. It cannot act on what is not alive.Origenes
December 12, 2021
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Barry A: Your argument fails because your major premises is false. People who support the right to choose may very well be ideological monsters. Nazis supported the right to choose to kill Jews. That made them ideological monsters. They might be ideological monsters but they might not be ideological monsters, thank you for misrepresenting what I said. I'll leave it up to the gathered observers as to whether or not killing Jews and allowing abortions is some kind of ideological equivalence. Legally we know what the answer is. AND you didn't explain how some Christians support abortion rights and some oppose them. Same with some atheists. Having trouble with the first of those?JVL
December 12, 2021
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Against all odds [thank you for helping out with this Multiverse!] random mutations come up with all sorts of perfectly viable organisms, and next natural selection steps in eliminating 99.9 % of the bunch. ___ RM to NS:
Thank you very much mr. Natural Selection. You've made my task a lot easier!
Origenes
December 12, 2021
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