Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Difference between Organization and Order

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In my previous post Silver Asiatic asked:

“What do you mean by organization being of a higher order than simple order? Why don’t these [natural] forces produce organization? Those are better areas for discussion, in my opinion.” (comment #122)

Organization

I think the distinction organization vs. order is fundamental in the design / evolution debate. Perhaps the easiest way to help us understand this difference is to consider computer software. Software clearly implies the four basic aspects of organization I listed there: hierarchy of functions and tasks, control-power, inter-process communication. Also biological systems, from cells to higher organisms, show all these aspects (“organ-isms” contain organs). Life is software. (Disclaimer: obviously here I consider only the cybernetic aspects of biology, I am not dealing with mind, soul, spirit, etc..) Organisms are organized as computer networks. This sort of isomorphism (similar mathematical structure) between software and biology is also the reason why one needs the former to understand, model and simulate the latter.

Organization is what gives a multiplicity of parts an organic unity. In other words, organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts (see here). The parts of an airplane per se don’t fly, their organization causes this capacity of the whole airplane. Analogously, the chemicals per se don’t make life, their organization causes the life capacity of the whole organism. Life is organization.

Box rightly said:

“These arguments from organization stem from holism. When we observe an organism, we observe a whole. We do not observe a bag of chemicals, as materialism/Darwinism wants us to believe.” (comment #82)

Similarly:

“The living being has inside himself his own principle of unity, superior to the multiplicity of the elements that take part in his constitution.” (René Guénon, “Autorité spirituelle et pouvoir temporel”, chap. 5 [my translation])

Order

Differently, order is lower in essence than organization. Order means simply configuration, pattern, layout of elements in the space. Examples: my books are ordered in their book-shelf; atoms are ordered in the crystals; cars are ordered in the parking. No one of the above aspects of organization is present. Order is simple static patterns, organization is complex dynamic systems. In computer programming order can be formalized by means of mere definition and assignment of variables (the simplest thing of software). Example, the bookshelf layout can be described (in Perl language) by means of a single variable $bookshelf:

$bookshelf = <<EOV;
BB BBBBB BB
———————–
BB BBB
———————–
BBBBB BBBB
———————–
EOV

No function, no task, no control, no communication is necessary to describe the bookshelf layout. In general, order needs simply the definition of variables and the assignment of values, which the computer will store in its memory. If to define order implies only the simplest software concept, while to define organization we need all the more complex stuff of software, that means that order has inferior rank than organization.

If we have to model the working of a biological cell we need all the organizational power of a programming language: functions, processes, controls, communication and many other advanced features. Example, in computer programming the simplest decision instruction able to perform a control or regulation has the structure:

# prior situation
if (_conditions_) {
_action1_
} else {
_action2_
}
# after situation

Note that decision implies choice among two or more alternatives, depending on conditions. A decision breaks the causal chain and inserts a choice discontinuity between "prior situation" and "after situation". These kind of decisional constructs can be nested ad libitum in a program to create complex control chains. Software is control. But "complex control/regulation chains" is a ritornello you find also countless times in the texts on cellular biology or systems biology. Norbert Wiener defines cybernetics as the science that deals with "control and communication in systems and organisms". Similarly, in Mike Behe's "Darwin's black box" the string "control*" appears 66 times and the string "regulat*" 62 times. Behe explicitly writes:

“The essence of cellular life is regulation: the cell controls how much and what kinds of chemicals it makes; when it loses control, it dies.” (“Darwin’s black box”, chap 9, pag. 191)

Why don’t natural forces produce organization?

Natural laws can be described by means of a basic set of equations. These equations represent the direct relations between variables, and directly assign values to these variables. Here a key point is the term “direct” and “directly”. Example, in classical physics the Newton’s formula “f=m*a” assigns a value to “f” (or “m” or “a”) when the other two are known. That’s simple. The formula doesn’t contain the least control structure, implying a discontinuity. In fact Newton’s second law of motion is not something like this:

# prior situation
f= {if (_conditions_) {_action1(m) _} else {_action2(m) _}} * a
# after situation

Note that in the original formula f=m*a, between a “prior situation” and an “after situation”, there is no discontinuity due to decisions that break the causation by introducing choices (as massively exist in software). This is an important point: in natural laws there aren’t decisions; natural laws have no choices. This is true for all physical laws, also when they are expressed as differential equations (wave equation, Maxwell’s equations, Schrödinger equation…). This lack of decision-control-choice implies that natural laws potentially contain no organization, in the sense I defined at the beginning.

Since natural laws contain in potency no organization to greater reason they cannot create organization. In fact in general what creates must always be higher in essence and more powerful than what is created. Otherwise we would have an illogic situation where more comes from less. In a similar sense Thomas Aquinas said “Since in the world there are many intelligent causes, the first Motor couldn’t cause unintelligently.” (Summa contra Gentiles, I, 44 [my translation]). If the organizational potential of the cause is zero, a fortiori the organization of its effects is zero. In Aristotelian terms, if a thing is null “in potency”, is also null “in act”. So it is impossible that natural laws, as we know them, produce organization.

Obviously if natural laws (necessity) are unable to create organization, to greater reason randomness (chance) is unable. In fact, randomness not even has the minimum power that natural laws have and provide. Chance is lower in rank than laws. If chance and necessity, taken alone, are incapable of organization, also considered working together they are incapable (the sum of two zeroes is zero).

Conclusion: given chance and necessity per se are incapable to produce organization, the best explanation for the formidable organization of the universe and its living beings is a designing Intelligence (Source of knowledge), who has thought it as an overall organic unique project.

Comments
Zac says. That’s because when not using your “special” definition, evolution can refer to either an increase in complexity, a decrease in complexity, or changes where the complexity doesn’t change. I say I agree with Phinehas here. Using the term evolution for the result of RM/NS is a subtle linguistic trick. Before Darwin evolution meant gradual improvement over time from here https://www.google.com/search?q=evolution&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=evolution+definition quote the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form. end quote: or from here http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution quote: a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : end quote: That is the subconscious understanding that we bring to the term evolution. Scientists today may or may not wish to bring this linguistic baggage along when they speak of evolution but the general public surely understands the term in that way. If you don't wish to claim that the change is directional toward better and more complex you should find another term IMHO It would sure make communication easier. peacefifthmonarchyman
December 20, 2014
December
12
Dec
20
20
2014
06:43 AM
6
06
43
AM
PDT
Phinehas: And if replication with variation were sufficient, you wouldn’t need to keep tacking on other requirements, such as (evidently) a connection between the sequence and its ability to reproduce, in addition to competition for resources and a complex and changing environment. Sorry. We thought you were somewhat aware of the basic theory. See Darwin 1859. Phinehas: Of the four, the last is probably the least appropriate (least likely), but some people will continue to use it exclusively. That's because when not using your "special" definition, evolution can refer to either an increase in complexity, a decrease in complexity, or changes where the complexity doesn't change.Zachriel
December 20, 2014
December
12
Dec
20
20
2014
06:20 AM
6
06
20
AM
PDT
Phinehas, that's correct. the more improbable a thing is, the more hill climbing that must be done, and evolutionists seem to have no problem with the miracle that is the path up the mountain, just waiting to be found. May as well believe that 'the climber' was 'poofed' to the top, imo.Mung
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
05:39 PM
5
05
39
PM
PDT
Z:
Phin: If it replicates with variation, then it devolves. Z: Not necessarily. evolution can either increase or decrease or, most likely, not change the overall complexity of an organism.
Absolutely! Based on what you've admitted above, any of the following formulations are appropriate.
If it replicates with variation, then it stays the same.
If it replicates with variation, then it changes.
If it replicates with variation, then it devolves.
If it replicates with variation, then it evolves.
Of the four, the last is probably the least appropriate (least likely), but some people will continue to use it exclusively. They will do this because they have an agenda, and their agenda is best served by smuggling in a concept of advancement.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
12:27 PM
12
12
27
PM
PDT
Z:
Phin: You seemed to indicate that replication with variation was sufficient to get us to things like biological viruses. Z: And you chose an example that lacks a connection between the sequence and it ability to reproduce (fitness), as well as a source of variation (mutation).
And if replication with variation were sufficient, you wouldn't need to keep tacking on other requirements, such as (evidently) a connection between the sequence and its ability to reproduce, in addition to competition for resources and a complex and changing environment. I'm starting to suspect that you don't really know what is sufficient or what is required. Perhaps you should take some time to think about it? What is required to get to life? Well, it would have to look an awful lot like life. If this is what you are saying, then OK? But if you need life to get to life, then stop pretending like replication with variation is all you need to get there. And stop pretending like saying "replication with variation" is an explanation for how you get there.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PDT
Phinehas: That’s why we talk about climbing Mt. Improbable instead of rolling down it. By the definition, evolution can either increase or decrease the complexity of an organisms. Returning to your original statement: Phinehas: If it replicates with variation, then it devolves. Not necessarily. evolution can either increase or decrease or, most likely, not change the overall complexity of an organism.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
Z:
Again, advancement isn’t meaningful in the context of biological evolution.
Of course it is. That's why we talk about climbing Mt. Improbable instead of rolling down it. Advancement in complexity and the movement toward higher functionality are the heart and soul of what evolution is seeking to explain. No one is trying to demonstrate how man's ancestors devolved into the chimpanzee. No one set out to explain how bacteria devolved from higher life forms. Denying this is naive at best. Otherwise, to ensure we excise the advancement connotations, let's talk in terms of devolution instead.
If it replicates with variation, then it devolves.
But, robbed of the smuggled in assumption of advancement, the above doesn't look nearly as impressive. Nor does it accomplish what evolutionist desperately want it to accomplish.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
Box: It would be an empirical finding if it was shown that a coupled replication-translation system could stem from RNA-world – which happens to be impossible. It could also be a valid finding if you showed the toy model were the only possible way for such a system to evolve. That's not been shown, so when you claim any path is impossible, and point to the so-called "Koonin-threshold", you are making an unsupported claim.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
Z: The so-called “Koonin threshold” is not an empirical finding but a toy model for purposes of discussion.
Well duh, of course it is not an empirical finding! It would be an empirical finding if it was shown that a coupled replication-translation system could stem from RNA-world - which happens to be impossible.Box
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:54 AM
11
11
54
AM
PDT
Phinehas: You seemed to indicate that replication with variation was sufficient to get us to things like biological viruses. And you chose an example that lacks a connection between the sequence and it ability to reproduce (fitness), as well as a source of variation (mutation). Phinehas: Then you added competition and a complex and changing environment to the mix. Competition for resources is inevitable in a biological context. Phinehas: “Devolve” means exactly the same thing as “evolve” but without the built-in assumption that replication plus variation automatically results in advancement. Again, advancement isn't meaningful in the context of biological evolution. Do you understand the theory of evolution?Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:49 AM
11
11
49
AM
PDT
Z:
In any case, please define “devolve”.
"Devolve" means exactly the same thing as "evolve" but without the built-in assumption that replication plus variation automatically results in advancement. The point is that "evolution" depends on this assumption. Changing the word to "devolution" highlights this dependence.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:45 AM
11
11
45
AM
PDT
Z:
Have no idea what you think that would accomplish. Computer viruses can coop a computer to transmit and replicate, but there is virtually no mutation during replication. In addition, such programs tend to be very fragile to mutation, unlike biological viruses which have a great deal of flexibility.
What do biological viruses have to do with how you get to biological viruses? You seemed to indicate that replication with variation was sufficient to get us to things like biological viruses. Then you added competition and a complex and changing environment to the mix. Are these sufficient or not? (They don't appear to be sufficient, since you seem to agree with me that having all of these present doesn't necessarily accomplish anything.) If not, then what would be sufficient? If you are saying that biological viruses are sufficient to get to biological viruses, then OK? How do you get to the biological virus?Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:42 AM
11
11
42
AM
PDT
Phinehas: Then it is a good thing we are talking about pre-biology. That's a semantic distinction. Call it proto-biology, if it makes you feel better. In any case, please define "devolve".Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:38 AM
11
11
38
AM
PDT
Z:
Phin: If it replicates with variation, then it devolves. Devolve really has no meaning with regards to biology.
Then it is a good thing we are talking about pre-biology. Otherwise, you might be able to dodge the question. As a reminder, we are talking about if it replicates with variation, and not about if life replicates with variation, since we are discussing how you get to the point where life emerges in the first place.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:32 AM
11
11
32
AM
PDT
Phinehas: If it replicates with variation, then it devolves. Devolve really has no meaning with regards to biology.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:21 AM
11
11
21
AM
PDT
Phineas: So, if I create a software program that prints out the character A, then replicates itself, but flips a bit so that the copy will print out the character B, then sends the replicated program via the internet to another computer (a complex and changing environment, to be sure), where it will compete for CPU resources to run and repeat the process, then this will be sufficient to get advancement in complexity and capability to the point that new functionality emerges? Have no idea what you think that would accomplish. Computer viruses can coop a computer to transmit and replicate, but there is virtually no mutation during replication. In addition, such programs tend to be very fragile to mutation, unlike biological viruses which have a great deal of flexibility.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:21 AM
11
11
21
AM
PDT
Z: Can you demonstrate that this...
If it replicates with variation, then it evolves.
...is a more appropriate formulation than this?
If it replicates with variation, then it devolves.
Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:18 AM
11
11
18
AM
PDT
Box (quoting Lehman): “The odds of suddenly having a self-replicating RNA pop out of a prebiotic soup are vanishingly low.” Most researchers agree it couldn't have suddenly appeared. Box (quoting vjtorley): how many science journalists have you come across who even knew about the Koonin threshold? The so-called "Koonin threshold" is not an empirical finding, but a toy model for purposes of discussion. It shows that it couldn't suddenly appear in that form. Vjtorley also seems to conflate the requirement for replication with the requirements for translation. There is no a priori reason translation can't evolve from simpler relationships, for instance, a replicator could also code for helper peptides. RNA World does not provide anywhere near a complete model. What RNA World does is remove the a priori objection concerning the genetic code, as well as providing an avenue of further research.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:16 AM
11
11
16
AM
PDT
Phin: Replication with variation are entirely sufficient such that nothing else is required for the advancement in complexity and capability to the point that new functionality emerges. Z: Evolution involves a competition for resources, so evolution necessitates an environment. Complex functions evolve in a complex and changing world.
Competition for resources. Complex and changing environment. Got it. So, if I create a software program that prints out the character A, then replicates itself, but flips a bit so that the copy will print out the character B, then sends the replicated program via the internet to another computer (a complex and changing environment, to be sure), where it will compete for CPU resources to run and repeat the process, then this will be sufficient to get advancement in complexity and capability to the point that new functionality emerges? I have to say I'm a bit skeptical that this will work. Are you sure there aren't any additional requirements?Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:16 AM
11
11
16
AM
PDT
Z: Did you have a specific objection?
Well at least two: First, the 'arrival' of a self-replicating RNA is just about impossible. Biochemist Niles Lehman:
"The odds of suddenly having a self-replicating RNA pop out of a prebiotic soup are vanishingly low."
And the next step, to evolve a DNA-protein world from a RNA-world, is impossible - see here.Box
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
11:00 AM
11
11
00
AM
PDT
Box: Evidence in a scientific paper is inversely proportional to the amount of bluffing in the title Did you have a specific objection? Box: – long standing darwinian tradition, dating back to 1859. Darwin's theory has been accepted by the vast majority of biologists since 1859. Claiming it is mere bluff is simply not credible.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
10:33 AM
10
10
33
AM
PDT
Z: Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014.
Evidence in a scientific paper is inversely proportional to the amount of bluffing in the title - long standing darwinian tradition, dating back to 1859. RNA-world only for the gullible.Box
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
10:21 AM
10
10
21
AM
PDT
Zachriel:
Evolution involves a competition for resources...
Except when it doesn't. Zachriel:
Complex functions evolve in a complex and changing world.
Or not.Mung
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
10:17 AM
10
10
17
AM
PDT
Phineas: Replication with variation are entirely sufficient such that nothing else is required for the advancement in complexity and capability to the point that new functionality emerges. Evolution involves a competition for resources, so evolution necessitates an environment. Complex functions evolve in a complex and changing world.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
09:51 AM
9
09
51
AM
PDT
Phinehas: Assume a can opener. Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014. Phinehas: This doesn’t really do anything for your claims unless you equivocate on the meaning of “evolves.” That's what is meant by evolution in biology, the change in the inherited characteristics of populations. Phinehas: If it replicates with variation, then it advances in complexity and capability until new functionality emerges. It can also evolve to become more efficient or in response to changes in the environment.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
Z: As a follow up: Do you believe that the following is true? Replication with variation are entirely sufficient such that nothing else is required for the advancement in complexity and capability to the point that new functionality emerges. If not, then what else is required?Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
Z: The claim is that an RNA sequence can store, retrieve and interpret information.
No way, however a blob of protoplasm can do all these things - see Darwin 1859.Box
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
09:26 AM
9
09
26
AM
PDT
Z:
If it replicates with variation, then it evolves.
This doesn't really do anything for your claims unless you equivocate on the meaning of "evolves."
If it replicates with variation, then it changes.
OK. If it changes, then it changes. Got it. So?
If it replicates with variation, then it advances in complexity and capability until new functionality emerges.
This is the meaning that Darwinists are constantly trying to smuggle in. But can it be demonstrated to be true? Here's where they'll fall back on the equivocation and claim that change-over-time happens. But if that is all that is being said, if there is no claim for advancement being smuggled in, then why not phrase it this way?
If it replicates with variation, then it devolves.
Surely, there is at least as much evidence and more for this formulation.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
09:25 AM
9
09
25
AM
PDT
Z:
The claim is that an RNA sequence can store, retrieve and interpret information.
Assume a can opener.Phinehas
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
09:11 AM
9
09
11
AM
PDT
RNA replicators are posited to precede the genetic code
The evidence says that RNA replicators require an intelligent designer. And all codes also require an intelligent designer as they are not reducible to law and regularities (because they are arbitrary).Joe
December 19, 2014
December
12
Dec
19
19
2014
04:20 AM
4
04
20
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 6

Leave a Reply