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Difference between Organization and Order

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In my previous post Silver Asiatic asked:

“What do you mean by organization being of a higher order than simple order? Why don’t these [natural] forces produce organization? Those are better areas for discussion, in my opinion.” (comment #122)

Organization

I think the distinction organization vs. order is fundamental in the design / evolution debate. Perhaps the easiest way to help us understand this difference is to consider computer software. Software clearly implies the four basic aspects of organization I listed there: hierarchy of functions and tasks, control-power, inter-process communication. Also biological systems, from cells to higher organisms, show all these aspects (“organ-isms” contain organs). Life is software. (Disclaimer: obviously here I consider only the cybernetic aspects of biology, I am not dealing with mind, soul, spirit, etc..) Organisms are organized as computer networks. This sort of isomorphism (similar mathematical structure) between software and biology is also the reason why one needs the former to understand, model and simulate the latter.

Organization is what gives a multiplicity of parts an organic unity. In other words, organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts (see here). The parts of an airplane per se don’t fly, their organization causes this capacity of the whole airplane. Analogously, the chemicals per se don’t make life, their organization causes the life capacity of the whole organism. Life is organization.

Box rightly said:

“These arguments from organization stem from holism. When we observe an organism, we observe a whole. We do not observe a bag of chemicals, as materialism/Darwinism wants us to believe.” (comment #82)

Similarly:

“The living being has inside himself his own principle of unity, superior to the multiplicity of the elements that take part in his constitution.” (René Guénon, “Autorité spirituelle et pouvoir temporel”, chap. 5 [my translation])

Order

Differently, order is lower in essence than organization. Order means simply configuration, pattern, layout of elements in the space. Examples: my books are ordered in their book-shelf; atoms are ordered in the crystals; cars are ordered in the parking. No one of the above aspects of organization is present. Order is simple static patterns, organization is complex dynamic systems. In computer programming order can be formalized by means of mere definition and assignment of variables (the simplest thing of software). Example, the bookshelf layout can be described (in Perl language) by means of a single variable $bookshelf:

$bookshelf = <<EOV;
BB BBBBB BB
———————–
BB BBB
———————–
BBBBB BBBB
———————–
EOV

No function, no task, no control, no communication is necessary to describe the bookshelf layout. In general, order needs simply the definition of variables and the assignment of values, which the computer will store in its memory. If to define order implies only the simplest software concept, while to define organization we need all the more complex stuff of software, that means that order has inferior rank than organization.

If we have to model the working of a biological cell we need all the organizational power of a programming language: functions, processes, controls, communication and many other advanced features. Example, in computer programming the simplest decision instruction able to perform a control or regulation has the structure:

# prior situation
if (_conditions_) {
_action1_
} else {
_action2_
}
# after situation

Note that decision implies choice among two or more alternatives, depending on conditions. A decision breaks the causal chain and inserts a choice discontinuity between "prior situation" and "after situation". These kind of decisional constructs can be nested ad libitum in a program to create complex control chains. Software is control. But "complex control/regulation chains" is a ritornello you find also countless times in the texts on cellular biology or systems biology. Norbert Wiener defines cybernetics as the science that deals with "control and communication in systems and organisms". Similarly, in Mike Behe's "Darwin's black box" the string "control*" appears 66 times and the string "regulat*" 62 times. Behe explicitly writes:

“The essence of cellular life is regulation: the cell controls how much and what kinds of chemicals it makes; when it loses control, it dies.” (“Darwin’s black box”, chap 9, pag. 191)

Why don’t natural forces produce organization?

Natural laws can be described by means of a basic set of equations. These equations represent the direct relations between variables, and directly assign values to these variables. Here a key point is the term “direct” and “directly”. Example, in classical physics the Newton’s formula “f=m*a” assigns a value to “f” (or “m” or “a”) when the other two are known. That’s simple. The formula doesn’t contain the least control structure, implying a discontinuity. In fact Newton’s second law of motion is not something like this:

# prior situation
f= {if (_conditions_) {_action1(m) _} else {_action2(m) _}} * a
# after situation

Note that in the original formula f=m*a, between a “prior situation” and an “after situation”, there is no discontinuity due to decisions that break the causation by introducing choices (as massively exist in software). This is an important point: in natural laws there aren’t decisions; natural laws have no choices. This is true for all physical laws, also when they are expressed as differential equations (wave equation, Maxwell’s equations, Schrödinger equation…). This lack of decision-control-choice implies that natural laws potentially contain no organization, in the sense I defined at the beginning.

Since natural laws contain in potency no organization to greater reason they cannot create organization. In fact in general what creates must always be higher in essence and more powerful than what is created. Otherwise we would have an illogic situation where more comes from less. In a similar sense Thomas Aquinas said “Since in the world there are many intelligent causes, the first Motor couldn’t cause unintelligently.” (Summa contra Gentiles, I, 44 [my translation]). If the organizational potential of the cause is zero, a fortiori the organization of its effects is zero. In Aristotelian terms, if a thing is null “in potency”, is also null “in act”. So it is impossible that natural laws, as we know them, produce organization.

Obviously if natural laws (necessity) are unable to create organization, to greater reason randomness (chance) is unable. In fact, randomness not even has the minimum power that natural laws have and provide. Chance is lower in rank than laws. If chance and necessity, taken alone, are incapable of organization, also considered working together they are incapable (the sum of two zeroes is zero).

Conclusion: given chance and necessity per se are incapable to produce organization, the best explanation for the formidable organization of the universe and its living beings is a designing Intelligence (Source of knowledge), who has thought it as an overall organic unique project.

Comments
DATCG: How do you define protocol? A communications protocol is a system of digital rules for data exchange. RNA replicators are posited to precede the genetic code, the protocol, but provide an avenue for evolution of the genetic code.Zachriel
December 19, 2014
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Dr Selensky, very well said. KF PS: Locked up with local issues so I cannot focus here. Ah, well . . .kairosfocus
December 19, 2014
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Exchange between EugeneS and Zachriel,
110... EugeneS: No matter how many times you repeat it, it is not getting anywhere near plausible without an a-priori protocol being set first ). Not sure what you are saying. An RNA replicator stores, retrieves and interprets the information. The protocol is intrinsic to the molecule itself. ----- and then 112... EugeneS: Matter has non-physical abstract properties intrinsic to it? The claim is that an RNA sequence can store, retrieve and interpret information.
Zachriel, in 110 exchange and response you agree there is a "protocol." How do you define protocol? I've read multiple definitions of protocol. Makes for interesting thoughts on what might be deemed appropriate for the protocol an RNA replicator intrinsic or otherwise relies on, that "interprets the information" as you state. What definition of protocol for you in the RNA replicator process of information suffices? Is it based upon communication protocol, computer-like logic or cybernetics protocol? How do you see the protocol contributing to the processing of information?DATCG
December 19, 2014
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EugeneS: Matter has non-physical abstract properties intrinsic to it? The claim is that an RNA sequence can store, retrieve and interpret information.Zachriel
December 11, 2014
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Zachriel #110, The protocol is intrinsic to the molecule itself. There we go. Matter has non-physical abstract properties intrinsic to it? That's a metaphysical claim to me. You are obviously entitled to have your own metaphysical stand. I am simply pointing out it is metaphysical and should not be sold with a 'chemistry' label on it.EugeneS
December 11, 2014
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EugeneS: No matter how many times you repeat it, it is not getting anywhere near plausible without an a-priori protocol being set first ). Not sure what you are saying. An RNA replicator stores, retrieves and interprets the information. The protocol is intrinsic to the molecule itself.Zachriel
December 8, 2014
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Zachriel #108, We pointed out that it IS possible if a molecule can act as genetic memory and enzyme. No matter how many times you repeat it, it is not getting anywhere near plausible without an a-priori protocol being set first ). You haven't provided any empirical support whatsoever for your assumption that what you propose can account for 'crystallization' of physically inert and abstract rules out of chaos. After so many iterations, I haven't seen that you at least start paying attention to my claim. I am not going to speculate why because it is pointless. Unfortunately, I don't see any use in discussing this any further. I feel I am wasting my time.EugeneS
December 8, 2014
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EugeneS: We are talking past each other because you choose to disregard the common sense position that before anything is retrieved and interpreted there must be rules available in the system for how to interpret. Your position is that it is impossible for cybernetic organization to spontaneously form. We pointed out that it IS possible if a molecule can act as genetic memory and enzyme.Zachriel
December 8, 2014
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Zachriel #106, Most of your comment is just a restatement of your position. Absolutely. And this applies to your posts as well :). We are talking past each other because you choose to disregard the common sense position that before anything is retrieved and interpreted there must be rules available in the system for how to interpret. In no cases have I encountered yet emergence theory proponents like yourself being able to explain how such a protocol could emerge de novo in practice, i.e. what it is in matter that gives it a pragmatic incentive to select for future organization. If you have such an explanation, I am willing to hear. To date you haven't offered anything really, I am afraid.EugeneS
December 8, 2014
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EugeneS: Out of chaos arises order, not organization, because organization assumes the existence of a non-physical, formal, abstract protocol pre-loaded into the system. Most of your comment is just a restatement of your position. EugeneS: Your appeal to the RNA world hypothesis is untenable because even in this case there is an absolute need to store, retrieve and interpret information at a later stage, the apparent difference being that what is denoted (the RNA molecule) is a token of itself. An RNA replicator stores, retrieves and interprets the information.Zachriel
December 8, 2014
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Zachriel #104, What do you have to counter the claims in essence, the definition difference notwithstanding? Again your reasoning suffers from the same flaw others and I have already identified in a number of places above. The only difference is that now you use the word process without being aware that this word also has a telic connotation. 'Stochastic processes' is a very wide-spread oxymoron. It has been pointed out many times in this thread and elsewhere on this blog that emergence theories are based on assumptions that have no empirical support. Out of chaos arises order, not organization, because organization assumes the existence of a non-physical, formal, abstract protocol pre-loaded into the system. When no such protocol exists a priori, nothing except chaos, order or phase transitions between the two ever arises. In contrast, biological organization, motherboards, microchips and other sophisticated information processing systems (of human or animal origin) observably can only arise based on a given communication protocol. I am referring to your dismissal of my challenge above whereby I asked you to kindly provide an exclusively physical explanation of the rules of chess, i.e. one that is based on chance and law-like causation only. Unfortunately, you have failed to do so. Your appeal to the RNA world hypothesis is untenable because even in this case there is an absolute need to store, retrieve and interpret information at a later stage, the apparent difference being that what is denoted (the RNA molecule) is a token of itself. Sadly, your position is entirely untenable. You have not been able to demonstrate otherwise.EugeneS
December 8, 2014
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DATCG: What are the researchers definition of self-organization? The usual definition is "a process where some form of global order or coordination arises out of the local interactions between the components of an initially disordered system." Weather is a canonical example of a self-organized system. DATCG: Are we comparing apples and oranges? Sure. The original post uses a special definition. It's generally best to coin a new term to avoid confusion. However, we did address the original post based on the special definition. DATCG: Do you agree or disagree there is a distinction between self-order and self-organization as defined by Abel and Trevors paper? We agree a distinction can be made, though it's not clear the classes themselves are distinct. DATCG (quoting): Algorithmic “self-organization” has never been observed [70] despite numerous publications that have misused the term [21,151-162]. Bone fide organization always arises from choice contingency, not chance contingency or necessity.” Thank you for providing that quote. It's a "you don't use my special definition" argument.Zachriel
December 6, 2014
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# 22 Zachriel: While we understand that niwrad is trying to draw a distinction, the fact is that weather is considered to be a self-organized system by researchers in both meteorology and researchers in complex systems. I assume I'm in general agreement with Niwrad. What are the researchers definition of self-organization? Do they distinguish between self-ordered and self-organization? If not, why not? We need to know if there are clear definitions that they themselves are aware of for self-organization. Are we comparing apples and oranges? Do you agree or disagree there is a distinction between self-order and self-organization as defined by Abel and Trevors paper? If not, where do you disagree? Their paper defines "Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information." Thus why I quoted specific paragraph from them about hurricanes being self-ordered, not self-organized. I'll break up the paragraph for more clarity...
“Self-ordering phenomena(weather) are observed daily in accord with chaos theory. But under no known circumstances can self-ordering phenomena like hurricanes, sand piles, crystallization, or fractals produce algorithmic organization.
Are you aware of any "self-ordering phenomena" producing Functional Sequence Complexity as they define it? Above they distinguish hurricanes as self-ordered. Below they speak on misuse of the definition of self-organization as applied to weather. It might be many researchers and meteorologist are misusing the term self-organization without realizing distinctions between self-order and self-organization.
Algorithmic “self-organization” has never been observed [70] despite numerous publications that have misused the term [21,151-162]. Bone fide organization always arises from choice contingency, not chance contingency or necessity.”
I think they define well the distinction between self-order and self-organization.DATCG
December 5, 2014
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EugeneS #47, 53 and 54... Excellent request that goes unanswered...
"Please explain the rules of chess using only Newtonian mechanics."
#54 EugeneS
Zachriel, In addition to the challenge in 53, Please also explain why, when you have tilted the chessboard, it is no longer possible to play. What role the laws of nature have in helping organize a chess game in either case?
The problem exist in lack of definition or agreement to definition(s). Or, a refusal to admit distinction between Ordered Sequence Complexity and Functional(organized) Sequence Complexity. It appears materialist committed to unguided processes use a blurred definition of Organization and must if they are to remain adherents to a blind process that creates functional organization. Again, quoting Abel and Trevors paper on Functional Sequence Complexity and Organization(See #6 above) They distinguish in their paper, "Three subsets of Sequence Complexity..."
The fundamental contention... is this: without volitional agency assigning meaning to each configurable-switch-position symbol, algorithmic function and language will not occur. The same would be true in assigning meaning to each combinatorial syntax segment (programming module or word). Source and destination on either end of the channel must agree to these assigned meanings in a shared operational context. Chance and necessity cannot establish such a cybernetic coding/decoding scheme[71].
DATCG
December 5, 2014
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Box: Hello? Hello. EugeneS: I am pointing out here that there is a gross category error involved in your using the same notions (evolve, compete, act, express) in two substantially different contexts: one void of organization (pre-biotic or proto-biotic, if you like) and one with organization loaded in it. EugeneS: Unfortunately, you haven’t been able to address a single one of our points. We did address your points. Your other uses of evolution do not concern replicators, the fundamental unit of evolution.Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel: That is incorrect. Evolution can act on any replicator, such as a nucleotide strand in a simple lipid vesicle.
Box: Reference please.
Zachriel: By definition. If it replicates with variation, then it evolves.
Box: Don’t be shy, provide some reference please.
Zachriel #98: ....
Hello?Box
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel #98, I know what evolutionary biologists mean. I am pointing out here that there is a gross category error involved in your using the same notions (evolve, compete, act, express) in two substantially different contexts: one void of organization (pre-biotic or proto-biotic, if you like) and one with organization loaded in it. You haven't demonstrated the plausibility of any transition from one to the other based solely on chance and necessity without recourse to choice contingent guidance. Unfortunately, you haven't been able to address a single one of our points.EugeneS
December 3, 2014
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Box: do you mean by your statement, “[The cell is] a highly organized bag of molecules, the product of billions of years of evolution”, that it took evolution billions of years of goofing with “a nucleotide strand in a simple lipid vesicle” to produce “a highly organized bag of molecules” aka the cell? No one knows how long it took to become highly organized, but probably not that long in geological terms. We were just pointing out that evolutionary biologists don't just look at cells as "just a bag of molecules", but as a highly organized complex. EugeneS: Anything dynamically changing over time evolves in this sense. In the sense meant by evolutionary biologists, it means replication with variation. EugeneS: What is the basis for selection in a pre-biotic environment? If it replicates, it's not prebiotic, but protobiotic. The basis of selection is competition for limited local resources, the same as it is now.Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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Zachriel #94, If it replicates with variation, then it evolves. I am afraid, there is a glaring gap of reasoning here. There is a conflation of meanings regarding 'evolves'. Anything dynamically changing over time evolves in this sense. For something to evolve in this sense there is no need to be able to replicate. This conflation is the starting point of the dissent. Tornadoes evolve because they obviously exhibit a dynamic behaviour; they can even be thought in a sense to 'replicate with variation' because they demonstrate remarkable dynamic stability. Just recall the big red spot on Jupiter that has been around there for ages. However, what is missing from tornadoes and such like is exactly organization in the sense of the original post. This said, biological evolution means a very special kind of dynamic behaviours crucially different from the above meaning. Biological evolution is thought to be a source of organization. Any kind of biological selection can only act (a) within a concrete information context, and (b) on already existing functional systems. Biological selection cannot choose for a future function but from among existing functions. What is the basis for selection in a pre-biotic environment? Chemical stability? Replication? Or both? Crystals are chemically stable and replicate. Is that life? Autocatalysis is a form of constraint. Rules for extracting pragmatic utility from a multiplicity of dynamically inert states must be instantiated into the system in order for it to exhibit any biological behaviour. While constraints are always present, rules do not emerge from chaos in practice. You may regard this statement as a reworded claim but it does not change the fact that rules of pragmatic behaviour don't arise out of chaos.EugeneS
December 3, 2014
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Box: IOW “a highly organized bag of molecules” is a prerequisite of evolution.
Zachriel: That is incorrect. Evolution can act on any replicator, such as a nucleotide strand in a simple lipid vesicle.
Box: Reference please.
Zachriel: By definition. If it replicates with variation, then it evolves.
Don't be shy, provide some reference please. - - BTW Zachriel, do you mean by your statement, "[The cell is] a highly organized bag of molecules, the product of billions of years of evolution", that it took evolution billions of years of goofing with "a nucleotide strand in a simple lipid vesicle" to produce “a highly organized bag of molecules” aka the cell? Because that seems to be what you are saying.Box
December 2, 2014
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Populations don't replicate. And there seems to be a lack of evidence for an evolutionary theory.Joe
December 2, 2014
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Box: Reference please. By definition. If it replicates with variation, then it evolves.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Box: IOW “a highly organized bag of molecules” is a prerequisite of evolution.
Zachriel: That is incorrect. Evolution can act on any replicator, such as a nucleotide strand in a simple lipid vesicle.
Reference please.Box
December 2, 2014
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Box: IOW “a highly organized bag of molecules” is a prerequisite of evolution. That is incorrect. Evolution can act on any replicator, such as a nucleotide strand in a simple lipid vesicle.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Box: If by ‘evolution’ you mean random mutation and selection or any mechanism of variation, then there is an obvious problem with your statement. Do you understand what that problem is?
Zachriel: No. However, we do note there is substantial evidence of evolutionary history.
You don't understand the obvious problem with your statement. So, let me explain. Your statement is:
Zachriel: [The cell is] a highly organized bag of molecules, the product of billions of years of evolution.
Evolution - random mutation and selection or any mechanism of variation - can only act on a "highly organized bag of molecules". IOW "a highly organized bag of molecules" is a prerequisite of evolution. So, your statement boils down to:
Billions of years of evolution produces what must be already present at the very start of evolution: "a highly organized bag of molecules".
Now you understand the problem?Box
December 2, 2014
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Box: If by ‘evolution’ you mean random mutation and selection or any mechanism of variation, then there is an obvious problem with your statement. Do you understand what that problem is? No. However, we do note there is substantial evidence of evolutionary history.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Box: Under materialism a cell is just a bag of molecules.
Zachriel: A highly organized bag of molecules, the product of billions of years of evolution.
Box: If by ‘evolution’ you mean random mutation and selection, then there is an obvious problem with your statement. Do you understand what that problem is?
Zachriel: There are many known mechanisms of variation, not just mutation and selection.
If by ‘evolution’ you mean random mutation and selection or any mechanism of variation, then there is an obvious problem with your statement. Do you understand what that problem is?Box
December 2, 2014
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Box: If by ‘evolution’ you mean random mutation and selection, then there is an obvious problem with your statement. There are many known mechanisms of variation, not just mutation and selection.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Box: Under materialism a cell is just a bag of molecules.
Zachriel: A highly organized bag of molecules, the product of billions of years of evolution.
If by 'evolution' you mean random mutation and selection, then there is an obvious problem with your statement. Do you understand what that problem is?Box
December 2, 2014
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Box: Under materialism a cell is just a bag of molecules. A highly organized bag of molecules, the product of billions of years of evolution. niwrad: But your posts are planned or unplanned? Planned. However, the global structure of free markets isn't planned. This isn't controversial. Individuals make decisions based on local conditions without regard to the global properties of the market. They even have a name for it. It's called the invisible hand. niwrad: Sorry but I don’t understand what you mean here Your argument is based on a so-called conservation of organization. In other words, organization can't come from something which isn't organized. You really don't argue it. You make some distinctions, then claim it as fact. You presumably think it is intuitively true.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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