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Dinesh D’Souza speaks out against ID

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In reading Dinesh D’Souza’s WHAT’S SO GREAT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY, I was surprised at how uncritical and historically uninformed is his view of evolution. For instance, he lumped C. S. Lewis with other notable 20th century Christian intellectuals as accepting evolutionary theory, but in fact toward the end of his life, Lewis regretted his earlier support for evolution (go here).

With even less apparent knowledge of his subject, D’Souza is now weighing in against intelligent design:

The Failure of “Intelligent Design”
Posted Mar 31st 2008 9:38AM by Dinesh D’Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Atheism

. . . Today some Christians may be heading down the same path with their embrace of “intelligent design” or ID. This movement is based on the idea that Darwinian evolution is not only flawed but basically fraudulent. ID should not, however, be confused with bible-thumping six-day creationism. It does not regard the earth as 6,000 years old. Its leading advocates are legal scholar Phillip Johnson, biochemist Michael Behe, mathematician David Berlinski, and science journalist Jonathan Wells. Berlinski has a new book out The Devil’s Advocate that makes the remarkable claim that “Darwin’s theory of evolution has little to contribute to the content of the sciences.” Ben Stein’s movie “Expelled” provides horror stories to show that the case for ID as well as critiques of evolution from an ID perspective are routinely excluded or censored in the halls of academe.

ID advocates have sought to convince courts to require that their work be taught alongside Darwinian evolution, yet such efforts have been resoundingly defeated. Why has the ID legal strategy proven to be such a failure, even at the hands of conservative judges? Imagine that a group of advocates challenged Einstein’s theories of general and special relativity. Let’s say that this group, made up of a law professor, a couple of physicists, several journalists, as well as some divinity school graduates, flatly denies Einstein’s proposition that e=mc2.

How would a judge, who is not a physicist, resolve the group’s demand for inclusion in the physics classroom? He would summon a wide cross-section of leading physicists. They would inform him that despite unresolved debates about relativity–for example, its unexplained relationship to quantum theory–Einstein’s theories are supported by a wide body of data. They enjoy near-unanimous support in the physics community worldwide. There is no alternative scientific theory that comes close to explaining the facts at hand. In such a situation any judge would promptly show the dissenters the door and deny their demand for equal time in the classroom. This is precisely the predicament of the ID movement. . . .

MORE

What an incredible comparison. D’Souza here gives no evidence of knowing even the rudiments of the debate over ID — he merely repeats the worst propaganda against ID. I encourage anyone who has personal contact with him to provide him with better information. A point of leverage is that D’Souza presumably wants Christians, many of whom support ID, to buy his book.

Comments
-----Jerry: "I only try to follow the evidence. As I said micro-evolution is fantastic design. It populates the planet with a richness of life, adjusting the populations of the various species to the particular environment. Don’t you agree it is great design?" It's just a personal thing, I guess. For me, design is beautiful when you can perceive it as a finished product, as in, a DNA molecule or our solar system. I am not that moved by processes. I might change my mind though, if I could observe the evolutionary process in action, but, of course, that is not possible.StephenB
April 3, 2008
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JPCollado, I think all flight events were design events. The mechanisms for flight seem too complicated to just happen by gradual processes or any other means except planning by an intelligence. But once flight is in the gene pool, the modifications of many of the flying species could have happened by micro evolution or naturalistic means. This is just my opinion but seems to me the most reasonable choice given today's evidence. Anyone who thinks I am a Darwinist is not reading what I write. There is nothing I ever wrote that is consistent with Darwinism or inconsistent with ID. So I find it amusing to be lectured on things I already agree with. I consider Darwinism and the Darwinian paradigm as separate concepts. The latter is a combination of various naturalistic mechanisms for change in biological life and the former is a philosophy. The naturalistic mechanisms for change are limited but not completely impotent as some would have you believe.jerry
April 3, 2008
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StephenB, I only try to follow the evidence. As I said micro-evolution is fantastic design. It populates the planet with a richness of life, adjusting the populations of the various species to the particular environment. Don't you agree it is great design? It does have its downside, the creating of genetic diseases.jerry
April 3, 2008
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EricB, Thank you for your analysis. It is essentially correct. But a couple of comments. If micro evolution can be used to explain most of the life on the planet, why so much mockery of what I said. Read some of the comments along the way. And little defense of what I said by anyone till you provided yours. Nullasalus was supportive also. DaveScot understands what I am trying to say. These ideas have been cooking inside of me for a couple years and were greatly helped by the Edge of Evolution which I read last June when it first came out. But what really goosed my thinking on this was a comment by a guy named Jason Rosenhouse, a typical arrogant jerk at Panda's Thumb, who did not understand the implication of Behe's book. Behe was on a TV show promoting his book and was asked about research supporting ID. Rosenhouse mocked Behe's answer and in the process showed how stupid he was. Behe said that research being carried out in Lenski's labs at Michigan State on bacteria evolution was an example of the type of research that would be useful for ID. What Rowenhouse doesn't realize is that the research by Lenski was also following changes after massive numbers of reproduction events and this was the type of research which would show the limits of evolution or as Behe said the edge of evolution. Now Behe's book only looked at unicellular organisms. To make a real impact suppose that multi-cellular organisms were on the table. In the last 10-20 million years many of the mammal and aves species have changed or evolved. Or did they and if they did evolve how much. And could the various species be examined to see the extent of these changes. This would include a very large number of reproductive events. Many of these genomes are available and my proposition is that the multitude of species are really quite similar and no complexity will separate nearly all of them. Which leads to my claim that 99.5% (to be over the top with a large number) of the species are only different because of basic micro evolutionary processes. This claim has not been well received on UD. I was told how stupid I was on another thread by some others and on this thread others have irrationally attacked my claims. Witness the insistence of turning the argument into one of macro evolution. I expect to find exceptions to my claims but not many and in the process support the edge of evolution. Right now this is all theoretical but there are 4500 genomes that have been sequenced and are available for anyone to analyze if they have the time and grant money. Eventually sequencing genomes will be quite inexpensive and what separates all these so called species will be shown I believe to be trivial. All this is not my invention but Darwin's himself and is called his special theory. But Darwin got full of himself and extrapolated to the general theory that had no support and said we all descended from single celled organisms. His special theory is well supported but is general theory is baseless. But anything to do with Darwin is verboten here Many stick their heads in the ground and deny the obvious or that any of his ideas have merit. Any way I am rambling.jerry
April 3, 2008
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-----Jerry: "The less the intervention, the more powerful the Intelligent Designer. That is why I say the micro evolutionary part of the Darwinian paradigm is fantastic design." Jerry, I hate to pile on, but that is the same argument that the TE's use. Surely, you can appreciate the irony here. TE's are always telling us that we presume to know the mind and power of God, when the very opposite is true. It is the TE who presumes to know that which cannot possibly be known. No one knows which kind of creation could pose the biggest challenge for God. In fact, if they really believed their Bible they would know that God is omnipotent, meaning that everything is equally easy for him. TE's keep saying that we anthropomorphize God, but they are the ones who reduce God's ways to our ways.StephenB
April 3, 2008
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jerry, I am quite sympathetic to your frustration about straw men and responses that miss your point. Please correct me if I ever misunderstand or misrepresent you. It would not be intentional. As I understand it, you are making a couple major claims. 1) That microevolution "explains most of the life on the planet", meaning that most of the diversification that has taken place is at the level of microevolution. 2) That ID propenents have not adequately acknowledged the reality of microevolution. ID is not adequately dealing with this evidence. 3) That until ID corrects the problem of point #2, it will continue to be marginalized. Now, if #2 were true, I would agree that marginalization is the unsurprising consequence. However, I am not aware of any ID proponent, nor even any Young Earth Creationist, who disputes microevolution. I honestly do not understand how you draw the conclusion that microevolution is not being adequately acknowleged. As a recent vivid example, have you ever read Dr. Behe's The Edge of Evolution? If not, I recommend you do so. Behe makes it explicitly clear that microevolution is within the reasonable reach of Darwinistic processes. I don't know how he or anyone else could be more clear than Behe was. Neither does Behe reject common descent. If your points above are true, shouldn't we expect that Behe will no longer be marginalized by the Darwinistic establishment? Yet does anyone really expect that? Personally, I believe the better supported explanation for the cold shoulder given to ID is that ID doesn't exclude the possibility that the designer of life or of the universe could be God. Notice (in the upcoming movie Expelled) the way Dawkins is fine with the idea that aliens might create biological life, but it certainly couldn't be God. ID breaks the cardinal rule of never letting the "Divine Foot" in the door as a possibility. For some, even the possibility is inherently unpardonable.ericB
April 3, 2008
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This is interesting, a Michgan fifth grader finds 27 year old mistake at the Smithsonian. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345488,00.html Kinda looks like me, at that age.DeepDesign
April 3, 2008
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Jerry, do you think the "re-evolution" of wings in stick insects (even up to four times) is a chance phenomenon?JPCollado
April 3, 2008
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How do you judge when one is on to something. When the objections to what you claim have no relevance to what you say. If you say you are talking about micro evolution and the reason you are talking about it is because it happens and is easily understandable by the typical person and there is lots of proof that it happens. And then all the objections to what you are claiming are about macro evolution which you say you are not talking about. And even after you say you are not talking about it again the objections are still about macro evolution. Then there is the objections based on origin of life and I wonder how that relates to micro evolution. Can people read? Please read what I say if you are going to object to it. I have found no one who has made a cogent objection to what I have said. They pick their own strawman to demolish. I would be happy with relevant criticism, not some made up criticism of something I do not believe and am not saying. If you are going to object to anything I have said then as a starter explain where the 300,000 beetle species came from and where the 2,000 + species of cichlids came from? Is each one a design events? Somehow I doubt it. What I find funny about all of this is that I am pursuing a path that should make the ID argument stronger and all I get is irrelevant flap. Mainly I think that the arguments used are based on time and time is anathema to many here.jerry
April 3, 2008
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Borne, are you saying that the "fixity" of the species is still on the table?StephenB
April 3, 2008
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-----"jstanley101:Notwithstanding whether I believe that Creator described by the Bible is in fact the Intelligent Designer of the universe, why would I expect ID-based science to confirm or deny my faith scientifically? When the Bible I supposedly believe in specifically states that “the world by wisdom knew not God” (I Corinthians 1:21)? You are confusing what ID teaches with what the Bible teaches. My point is that Christian Darwinists claim to believe in the Bible when they obviously do not. There is no doubt that the Bible teaches that design is “manifest” in nature. Here are just four of many examples: The Psalmist said, "I will give thanks to God, for I am awesomely and wonderfully made" (Psalms 139:14). It is also written, "From my flesh, I will see God" (Job 19:26). That is, God's handiwork is discernable from the very fact that human flesh can exist. It is likewise taught that even inanimate things praise God. Their very existence is a hymn, demonstrating God's handiwork. It is thus written, "The heavens declare God's glory, the firmament tells of His handiwork" (Psalms 19:2). The Bible declares in Rom. 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.” So much so, that the skeptics are “without excuse.” None of this has anything with ID being dogmatic about anything. One need not believe the Bible to embrace ID. On the other hand, theistic evolutionists who deny design in the name of Darwinism are subordinating the Bible to Darwin. I am not being dogmatic, I am simply pointing to an irony.StephenB
April 3, 2008
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-----“Well, I’m getting mixed signals on that. But I don’t think the characterization of TEs is accurate. A TE could very well -perceive- design, believe it to be true, but stop short of arguing they could prove it in a falsifiable way. That self-identified TEs tend to fight ID doesn’t mean anything to me right away - YECs have fought ID too, but there’s still room for them in the big tent.” TE’s believe that organisms evolved through a Darwinian process, which, by definition means, NOT DESIGNED. Of course, they contradict themselves by asserting that “design is ‘inherent’ in the evolutionary process.” In other words, God designed a Darwinian “non design” process. Does that sound like a rational universe to you? In any case, anyone who wants to be in the ID tent is welcome. TE’s don’t want to be there. The decision is theirs not ours. ----“ I think many of them would reject the characterization, or would understand it in a very different way than you’re outlining. I don’t really care who ‘chose to be enemies’; I’m not interested in pride and the intellectual equivalent of blood feuds on this subject. And, Ken Miller aside, I don’t see all that much persecution coming from the TEs. Distancing, skepticism, misunderstandings, disagreements? Yes. And I’d like to see work towards solving the last two.” Yes, I am sure that they would reject my characterization. Who likes to be discovered as having being irrational? -----“Again, I question the characterization. Don’t believe their own sales pitch? Hardly. Many of them do believe that design is real, that nature has abundant evidence of it, but that the conclusions reached cannot be proved in a laboratory. Whether they question original sin or whether humanity sprang from one couple or multiple is the stuff of theological dispute - whether they’re “real christians” by someone’s view shouldn’t determine whether TEs could fit in with the ID tent.” I didn’t say that abandoning Christian doctrine to make it fit Darwinism disqualified them from the ID tent. Must I say it again? They are welcome here. The decision not to be in the ID tent is theirs, not ours. I said that selling out to Darwin is irrational, which it is. They contradict themselves. On the one hand, they insist that God would not have designed such an imperfect world. It’s called the “bad design, therefore, no design” argument. On the other hand, they say, “wait, the design is ‘inherent’ in the evolutionary process.” It is an intellectual madhouse. -----“Just because God created a rational universe doesn’t mean we’re privy to every perspective and understanding God is, even given eternity. Some things are clearly beyond us at the moment, and in the case of God, even the most orthodox christians believe that God and God’s mind will never be fully grasped by any individual” If the world was made rational, then it can be analyzed by rational beings. To be rational is to be discernable, detectable, and measurable. That fallible human beings cannot fully grasp it is obvious. That they can grasp some of it should also be obvious. -----One more time, I disagree with your characterization of TEs. You’re saying that there’s a contradiction, because they think “contingency can unfold, and if it unfolds, it was designed”. Well, that’s exactly the point. Many of them (all of the ones I’ve read about, though I’m suspicious of Miller) seem to really believe that these things “unfolded”, and that the world we’re in is designed. What they disagree about is whether this can be decisively proved through science - or that any supernatural intervention can itself be detected in evolution. Yes, of course it’s a contradiction. A thing either unfolds purposefully according to an internal principle or else it adapts randomly to its external environment. Even a preordained fitness function requires an internal principle. According to TE’s, there is no “internal” or teleological principle at all, because that would negate their Darwinian paradigm that rules out teleology apriori. The point is, “contingency” cannot “unfold.” If it unfolds, it unfolds according to an internal principle. To be contingent is for the final outcome to be left to chance. Either an organism’s fate will be determined by the “unfolding” of an internal principle, which allows for one possible outcome, or its fate will be determined by chance, in which case there are many possible outcomes. Contrary to the fantasies of theistic evolution, contingency cannot “unfold.”StephenB
April 3, 2008
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"As an example take the 300,000 beetles. The number may be exaggerated but it is high. How did each one arrive on the planet? Were they design events? Or were they the result of laws and chance once the original gene pool existed?" I believe these microevolutionary variations have nothing to do with chance but are more like built-in genetic reflexes (for lack of a better word) that express themselves in response to a specific changing environmental stimulus - sort of like a defense mechanism, maybe - and not the other way around. And if teleology were in the mix, I wouldn’t find it hard to accept an aesthetic function for much of the diversity. Like the design principle behind melanin. Look how colorful and lively the world is because of it. Invoking chance is a science-stopper because it shuts the door to exploring such viable possibilities. The recent news that male peacock feathers have nothing to do with selective pressures, for instance, or the "perplexing" re-evolution of wings in stick insects, may lend credence to this mode of thinking as it calls into question on how much of a role chance does in fact play in the creation of such innovations.JPCollado
April 3, 2008
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Jerry:
"I believe B best describes the empirical evidence."
What empirical evidence exactly? The Cambrian explosion? The Avalon explosion? Lining up skulls etc. in a predetermined manner so it looks like the evidence fits the theory? Darwinism has no explanation whatsoever for the existence of even one beetle! The bombardier. All it has is speculative just-so stories that are hopelessly simplistic. The evidence for design in that single bug is immense. Still waiting for the math for your assertion on the "e=mc^2" comparison.
"I am not interested in the origin of the original gene pool here which I believe is beyond Darwinian processes..."
Of course you're not interested in that because Darwinism always uses escapist tactics with regards to that even though Darwin himself made the "warm little pond" suggestion. There are serious problems with the "not interested" approach. So where exactly does Darwinism actually begin? Consider:
"Although a biologist, I must confess that I do not understand how life came about. Of course, it depends on the definition of life. To me, autoreplication of a macromolecule does not yet represent life. Even a viral particle is not a life organism, it only can participate in life processes when it succeeds in becoming part of a living host cell. Therefore, I consider that life only starts at the level of a functional cell. The most primitive cells may require at least several hundred different specific biological macromolecules. How such already quite complex structures may have come together, remains a mystery to me. The possibility of the existence of a Creator, of God, represents to me a satisfactory solution to this problem." (Arber, Werner [Professor of Microbiology at the University of Basel, Switzerland, shared Nobel Prize for Physiology/Medicine in 1978], "The Existence of a Creator Represents a Satisfactory Solution," in Margenau H. & Varghese R.A., eds., "Cosmos, Bios, Theos: Scientists Reflect on Science, God, and the Origins of the Universe Life, and Homo Sapiens," [1992], Open Court: La Salle IL, 1993, Second Printing, pp.142-143)
Also consider:
"The principal problem is morphological stasis. A theory is only as good as its predictions, and conventional neo-Darwinism, which claims to be a comprehensive explanation of evolutionary process, has failed to predict the widespread long-term morphological stasis now recognized as one of the most striking aspects of the fossil record." (Williamson, Peter G. [Assistant Professor of Geology, Harvard University], "Morphological stasis and developmental constraint: real problems for neo-Darwinism," Nature, Vol. 294, 19 November 1981, p.214)
Your use of bare assertions is not a sound approach. The empirical evidence only supports micro-evolution, adaptations and the like. The rest is conjecture and speculation caused by trying to shove the evidence into the theory. Some of your statements show, imo, a misunderstanding of what Darwinism is. It is "micro leads to macro". No one contests micro. Virtually all the empirical evidence screams against gradualism - else why would Gould have invented punctuated equilibria (to the great dislike of gradualists)? I think there are conspicuous holes throughout your assertions here.Borne
April 3, 2008
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“But the Darwinian paradigms is about macroevolution.” No it isn’t.
Yes it is. The fact that evolution books may focus on micro evolution is not evidence that Darwinism is about micro evolution, but rather evidence of the failure of natural selection in explaining macro evolution. Hence there is a growing area of literuatre that insists that macroevolution must take place in spite of natural selection, not because of it.
Contrary to popular belief evolution is not driven by natural selection alone....but all populations are influenced by the nonadaptive forces of mutation, recombination, and random genetic drift. These additional forces are not simpple embellishments around a primary axis of selection, but are quite the opposite .... many genomic features could not have emerged without a a near-complete disengagement of the power of natural selection Michael Lynch Origins of Genome Architecture
Thus your claim:
the Darwinian paradigm explains most of the life on the planet
is demonstratably incorrect. Selection acts through the reduction of diversity. But reduction of diversity cannot simultaneously explain the emergence of diversity. To argue that reducing diversity simultaneosly creates diversity is insanely illogical. Lynch and others have merely elaborated on this simple contradiction which ought to be obvious to everyone. Thus, with tremendously sound mathematical arguments, it has been demonstrated over and over again, micro-evolutionary selection cannot be the major explanation for much of the biolgoical diversity in existence, and thus your claim:
the Darwinian paradigm explains most of the life on the planet
fails on mathematical grounds alone. I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one jerry. You seem bent on insisting "the Darwinian paradigm explains most of the life on the planet" whereas even the best secular literature out there casts serious doubt on that claim. Modern synethesis is a theory in crisis, and deservedly so... PS curiously, Lynch even cites Behe and Snoke 2004 in his landmark book.scordova
April 3, 2008
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Salvador, you said "But the Darwinian paradigms is about macroevolution." No it isn't. The Darwinian paradigm or the current version of the modern synthesis has many elements and to an evolutionary biologist it is mostly about micro evolution. It is certainly used to justify macro evolution but that is not the part I am interested in. Read a text book on evolutionary biology and where is most of the discussion. You are cherry picking one element and saying that is what the entire paradigm is about. You are trying to equate the blind watchmaker thesis with the whole Darwinian paradigm and that is not accurate. So I am not talking about macro evolution or the blind process that leads to macro evolution that the blind watchmaker assumes. I am talking about the random variation and genetics aspects of the paradigm. Each year the genetics package includes new things but essentially they are law plus chance whether they be natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, epigenetic information or other processes that affect phenotypes. As an example take the 300,000 beetles. The number may be exaggerated but it is high. How did each one arrive on the planet? Were they design events? Or were they the result of laws and chance once the original gene pool existed? I am not interested in the origin of the original gene pool here which I believe is beyond Darwinian processes but what happened once the gene pool was there. I bet few of these beetle species would pass the EF down to a design event.jerry
April 3, 2008
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In my book, DaveScot is absolutely correct on this thread. Notwithstanding whether I believe that Creator described by the Bible is in fact the Intelligent Designer of the universe, why would I expect ID-based science to confirm or deny my faith scientifically? When the Bible I supposedly believe in specifically states that "the world by wisdom knew not God" (I Corinthians 1:21)? I go back to the watchmaker analogy. All ID postulates is that the watch had to be designed. But the artifact alone reveals very little about the artificer. Christians involved with ID need to get over their penchant for dogmatic orthodoxy. The ID tent ought to be as big as its scientific principles allows. I'm confident that, when "that which may be known of God is manifest" (Romans 1:19) -- via whatever ID can reveal scientifically about design in the universe -- for many whom God has called, it will be a starting point of their personal journey into faith.jstanley01
April 3, 2008
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StephenB, "In other words, he doesn’t perceive it, he merely conceives it in the sense that he believes that this is the way that God did it. This is a self-contradictory position, but I won’t get into it now. TE’s excommunicates themselves from the ID camp as surely as do the Darwinists. In fact, they are usually ID’s fiercest persecutors." Well, I'm getting mixed signals on that. But I don't think the characterization of TEs is accurate. A TE could very well -perceive- design, believe it to be true, but stop short of arguing they could prove it in a falsifiable way. That self-identified TEs tend to fight ID doesn't mean anything to me right away - YECs have fought ID too, but there's still room for them in the big tent. "ID is open to all theories of evolution or non-evolution, except for a radical version of Darwinism that insists that nothing is designed." If that's true, then the TEs can get in under that Big Tent. And I'd take the tact that they should be there, and should be welcomed. Naturally, I understand if others disagree. "We didn’t choose to be enemies; they chose to be our enemies. They are they ones who join forces with Darwinists to persecute ID. In truth, Theistic evolutionists are Christian Darwinists." I think many of them would reject the characterization, or would understand it in a very different way than you're outlining. I don't really care who 'chose to be enemies'; I'm not interested in pride and the intellectual equivalent of blood feuds on this subject. And, Ken Miller aside, I don't see all that much persecution coming from the TEs. Distancing, skepticism, misunderstandings, disagreements? Yes. And I'd like to see work towards solving the last two. "What is a Christian Darwinist except someone who has integrated Darwinism with Christian Theology? It all sounds so eminently reasonable except for one thing—they don’t believe their own sales pitch. TE’s totally reject the Biblical teaching that design is real, and they totally accept the Darwinist scheme that design is “illusory.” That means of course that their Christianity is not RECONCILED WITH but is rather SUBORDINATED TO their Darwinism. Every theistic evolutionist I have ever met questions the Biblical story of Adam and Eve, insisting that we had thousands of first parents. If pressed, I suspect that many of them would question the doctrine of original sin as well. Translation: They want their God and their Darwin; but they want a quiet God and a loud Darwin." Again, I question the characterization. Don't believe their own sales pitch? Hardly. Many of them do believe that design is real, that nature has abundant evidence of it, but that the conclusions reached cannot be proved in a laboratory. Whether they question original sin or whether humanity sprang from one couple or multiple is the stuff of theological dispute - whether they're "real christians" by someone's view shouldn't determine whether TEs could fit in with the ID tent. "Further, they try to make their scheme work by saying that God’s idea of randomness is different from our idea of randomness. But all the great scientists have believed that God created a rational universe, meaning, as they put it, they could “think God’s thoughts after him.” That means that, for them, there is enough correspondence between God’s rationality and our rationality that randomness means the same thing for God as it does for us. Why think otherwise? We don’t say that God thinks of “laws” in a radically differently than we do, so why would we talk that way about chance events. It can only serve one purpose—to create the impression that the universe is not rational after all, the very antithesis of natural theology and science." Just because God created a rational universe doesn't mean we're privy to every perspective and understanding God is, even given eternity. Some things are clearly beyond us at the moment, and in the case of God, even the most orthodox christians believe that God and God's mind will never be fully grasped by any individual. Not to mention, considering the very subject of miracles, I think God certainly would conceive of "laws" in a different way than we do. For that matter, Paul Davies conceives of "laws" differently than other people do. These things aren't quite so clear cut. "As I said, TE is Christian Darwinism, which, in my judgment, is a conflict of visions. We have no reason to believe, as they do, that God “designed” contingency. That seems like a contradictory position to me. Contingency just happens. Apparently, God didn’t design snowflakes and moon craters, they just happened as physical laws interacted with chance. He knew how they were going to turn out, just as he knows when the stock market is going to crash. That doesn’t mean he makes these things happen. He simply allowed them to happen, and all of these events could have turned out differently." Michael Behe seems to argue for a different perspective than that, but I'll leave that aside. The distinction between "design" and "allowed to happen, and fully knew it would happen" is back into the realm of philosophy - personally, I think if someone willfully selects the laws and has the foresight to know what will happen with those laws implemented, the difference between "designed" and "knew about and allowed to happen" is blurred tremendously. Back to philosophy. "Now there is a second possibility. God could have “designed” the universe, its physical laws, and the earth’s ecology to “unfold” according to some internal principle. This is a very real possibility, except that the TE’s will have nothing to do with it. Remember, the TE’s are Darwinists, which means that life doesn’t UNFOLD according to some INTERNAL principle, it ADAPTS to the EXTERNAL environment. The moment you accept the possibility of “unfolding,” you are back in the ID camp because you have returned to teleology, something that TE’s want no part of. Of course, they think “contingency” can “unfold,” but such a formulation is, as I pointed out, a contradiction of terms. If it unfolds, it was designed." One more time, I disagree with your characterization of TEs. You're saying that there's a contradiction, because they think "contingency can unfold, and if it unfolds, it was designed". Well, that's exactly the point. Many of them (all of the ones I've read about, though I'm suspicious of Miller) seem to really believe that these things "unfolded", and that the world we're in is designed. What they disagree about is whether this can be decisively proved through science - or that any supernatural intervention can itself be detected in evolution. I believe TEs are largely, vastly sincere in their belief that God both created the world, and designed it in exacting degree - allowed it to unfold, etc. It's a mistake to consider them "the enemy", and "they started it" is not a good reason for ID proponents to stay hostile to them. ID, science, and theology in general would be greatly served by a TE defanging of Darwinian views in general, and evolution in particular. Even if they don't believe intelligent design can be demonstrated in the laboratory, supporting the fight of engaging "orthodox" Darwinism/evolution and showing where the science ends and the philosophy begins would be of tremendous value. It would take the "evangelization tool" men like Dawkins praise off the table.nullasalus
April 3, 2008
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-----nullasalus “There really IS no evidence whatsoever for “undirected” in that statement, and the word (the problem remains even if it becomes ‘random’ or otherwise) is utterly loaded. If the critics of ID are right, there is no way to scientifically detect for design. If that’s the case, ‘undirected’ fails as a description on the spot. We can still talk about mutations driving change - maybe they’re ultimately random, maybe they’re ultimately directed. But that debates gets outside of science. And that, by the way, is a point that D’Souza essentially makes himself, when it comes to the unjust mixing of atheism with science.” I would say that ID’s big tent is defined by those who believe that design in nature, including biological design, can be “perceived,” not merely “conceived, as the TE’s would have it, or “illusory,” as the Darwinists would have it. Immediately, we discover the critical difference between ID and TE. To perceive is to take into the senses; to conceive is merely to think about. Thus, the ID scientist will say, I am going to formally detect that which I perceive. The TE will say to the IDer, “there is nothing there to perceive, so you can’t detect it.” But then, the TE will go on to say, “Still, I “believe” or I “think” that design is “inherent” in the evolutionary process, but I just don’t think that it can be detected.” In other words, he doesn’t perceive it, he merely conceives it in the sense that he believes that this is the way that God did it. This is a self-contradictory position, but I won’t get into it now. TE’s excommunicates themselves from the ID camp as surely as do the Darwinists. In fact, they are usually ID’s fiercest persecutors. -----“Notice that you can reject this Darwinian interpretation of evolution - but still accept evolution on other grounds. You can accept common descent, you can accept micro to macro, you can accept a whole lot of the orthodoxy - but you can still be rejecting neo-/darwinism, or very critical of it. Look at Lynn Margulis for an example. She’s not an ID advocate, but she rejects the standard stories of evolution, and recognizes the frankly political nature of some of its development. Look at Denis Noble, who again doesn’t (to my knowledge) accept ID, but who has strong criticisms of evolution as commonly touted, and argues that ‘Selfish Gene’ views are inadequate and somewhat shallow.” ID is open to all theories of evolution or non-evolution, except for a radical version of Darwinism that insists that nothing is designed. -----“I’ll say again: I don’t think TEs are somehow an ‘enemy’ to ID, and I don’t think they’re all a bunch of people who have sold out to materialism, and damn certainly not atheism. If anything, they’re making what may be a stronger claim than many ID advocates: That even if darwinian evolution (or something close to it) is true, the atheist paradigm is still utter bunk. Many of them honestly don’t feel evolution to be a threat to their faith, or faith in general - they see that as a canard, an idea popularized wrongly by atheists. I do not think that view should be discounted.” We didn’t choose to be enemies; they chose to be our enemies. They are they ones who join forces with Darwinists to persecute ID. In truth, Theistic evolutionists are Christian Darwinists. What is a Christian Darwinist except someone who has integrated Darwinism with Christian Theology? It all sounds so eminently reasonable except for one thing---they don’t believe their own sales pitch. TE’s totally reject the Biblical teaching that design is real, and they totally accept the Darwinist scheme that design is “illusory.” That means of course that their Christianity is not RECONCILED WITH but is rather SUBORDINATED TO their Darwinism. Every theistic evolutionist I have ever met questions the Biblical story of Adam and Eve, insisting that we had thousands of first parents. If pressed, I suspect that many of them would question the doctrine of original sin as well. Translation: They want their God and their Darwin; but they want a quiet God and a loud Darwin Further, they try to make their scheme work by saying that God’s idea of randomness is different from our idea of randomness. But all the great scientists have believed that God created a rational universe, meaning, as they put it, they could “think God’s thoughts after him.” That means that, for them, there is enough correspondence between God’s rationality and our rationality that randomness means the same thing for God as it does for us. Why think otherwise? We don’t say that God thinks of “laws” in a radically differently than we do, so why would we talk that way about chance events. It can only serve one purpose—to create the impression that the universe is not rational after all, the very antithesis of natural theology and science. -----“Insofar as darwinism and evolution are offered up as inherently atheistic, the subjects are utterly abused. TEs largely point out this abuse, though frankly they’ve had less of a focus on the science and details than ID has offered. I don’t think they should be automatically discounted for holding these views - in fact, I think they should be encouraged. So ideally, I’d love to see far more ID proponents coming from a TE angle - people who accept most of the orthodoxy, and argue design can be seen even there, that it may well be the best explanation for what we’ve seen on earth, and how the popular atheistic views of chance and randomness are base and inaccurate.” As I said, TE is Christian Darwinism, which, in my judgment, is a conflict of visions. We have no reason to believe, as they do, that God “designed” contingency. That seems like a contradictory position to me. Contingency just happens. Apparently, God didn’t design snowflakes and moon craters, they just happened as physical laws interacted with chance. He knew how they were going to turn out, just as he knows when the stock market is going to crash. That doesn’t mean he makes these things happen. He simply allowed them to happen, and all of these events could have turned out differently. God designed DNA molecules, which could not have turned out differently. Now there is a second possibility. God could have “designed” the universe, its physical laws, and the earth’s ecology to “unfold” according to some internal principle. This is a very real possibility, except that the TE’s will have nothing to do with it. Remember, the TE’s are Darwinists, which means that life doesn’t UNFOLD according to some INTERNAL principle, it ADAPTS to the EXTERNAL environment. The moment you accept the possibility of “unfolding,” you are back in the ID camp because you have returned to teleology, something that TE’s want no part of. Of course, they think “contingency” can “unfold,” but such a formulation is, as I pointed out, a contradiction of terms. If it unfolds, it was designed.StephenB
April 3, 2008
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Also Cordova, please make that post about Fishe's theorem. I think it would be grand. You posts above are quite very useful.Frost122585
April 3, 2008
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Cordova, I share in your frustration.Frost122585
April 3, 2008
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In regards to Dembski's link above to Lewis' personal letters about evolution i found this line of his particularly funny
"Have you read this book by the Jesuit [Pierre Teilhard] de Chardin (The Phenomenon of Man) wh. is being praised to the skies? This is evolution run mad. He saves "continuity" by saying that before there was life there was in matter what he calls "pre-life." Can you see any possible use in such language? Before you switched on the light in the cellar there was (if you like to call it so) "pre-light;"
I can picture him actually thinking this too- as opposed to simply constructing it for the virtue of good polemical effect.Frost122585
April 3, 2008
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Jerry wrote: the Darwinian paradigm explains most of the life on the planet.
I disputed the above claim. But Jerry insists:
You [salvador] continue to bring up macro evolution when I [jerry] am talking micro evolution.
But the Darwinian paradigms is about macroevolution. Micro evolution does not explain most of life on the planet. Even though everything is subject to microevolution, it does not mean microevolution explains life. Everything is subject to gravity, but gravity does not explain life. I just revisited a few pages of sanford's work. You would benefit greatly from reading it.
Why don’t you layout what you mean by the research of Remine and Sanford. These are Young Earth Creationists
ReMine is not a YEC. Sanford was an atheist Darwinist before changing his mind. He is far more qualified than Dawkins or most people on the planet to be involved in a debate about genetics. His gene gun technology has influenced almost every genetically engineered crop in existence and he became filthy rich from his inventions. In addition to that, he is a tenured professor at Cornell. He is far more qualified than Dawkins or most people on the planet to discuss genetic evoltution. But if his newly acquired YEC beliefs somehow prejudice you from even reading his works, then you've closed your mind to some of the best critiques of Darwin's ideas.
John Sanford wrote: Degeneration is the precise antithesis of evolutionary theory. Therefore the reality of Genetic Entropy is positively fatal to Darwinism.
Sanford's ideas are subject to empirical testing, if anyone will be bold enough to face the unpleasant implications of genetic entropy. One does not have to outrightly reject naturalism to see that Darwinism fails on its own demerits. There are alternatives to Darwinism(some naturalistic, some not): 1. front loading 2. Denton's plantonic union of physics and biology 3. Special Creation 4. Pan Spermia (I really like Hoyle) 5. Self-Organization etc. But I think Denton, Sanford, ReMine, Salthe have pretty much trashed the possibility that Darwin was right, irrespective of whether a viable alternative exists. Finally, I might create a separate post on how Fisher's Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection has unwittingly disproved Darwinism! Poetic justice indeed.scordova
April 3, 2008
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You say "accomodates." I say "supports." Big difference right. Definitions- Support- hold in position so as to keep from falling, sinking, or slipping. Accommodation- The act of fitting or adapting, or the state of being fitted or adapted; adaptation; adjustment. I don’t think ID adapts to religion if it is to be properly understood but it certainly to a large extent "fits" with it. ID does however clearly hold one's faith in position from falling do to the constant assault by the Dawkin's, Meyers, crowed. Both words work fine. Remember as I wrote above Behe who is clearly one of the main contributors to ID (often called the father of ID) thinks Darwin’s theory accounts not for most of life’s complexity but for only about 2%! Therefore its not mostly true its very minutely true. Natural selection was understood before Darwin and so was genetic variation and of course change was as well. His theory just proposed common descent (if it was even for the first time- I’m not convinced it was)- So I have to disagree with the thrust of your two points. Of course I agree that ID is a big tent as I made explicit in post 63.Frost122585
April 3, 2008
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Properly understood ID doesn't support religion. It accomodates biblical creationism whereas Darwin's theory does not. Darwin's theory directly disputes biblical creation. ID neither disputes nor confirms biblical creation. It allows it. It also allows Darwinian theory to be mostly (just not entirely) true. ID is a really big tent when limited to what it's supposed to be - design detection.DaveScot
April 2, 2008
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Dave you also said,
"ID doesn’t validate your religion and neither does it dispute it. Atheism can be accommodated under the ID tent for Pete’s sake because it doesn’t require a divine intelligence."
I said "support"-- it supports people's religious views. And it does. It adds a little evidence that their conceptions are possible under the nature of the worlds scientifically observed circumstances. Many if not most people turn to ID for added intellectual support regarding their religious convictions. Not all do but most do. Sure atheists can believe in ID but militant atheists cant because you see they view religion as evil and any inference that supports the existence that evil is in their view not worthy of entertaining. The evidence of ID has to be taken with an open mind but if one chooses to have devout faith that there will eventually come a glorious day when all questions are answered by materialistic science- like PZ Meyers- then you will not find ID very accommodating. Militant atheists cannot be ID supporters and neither can methodological materialists. The point I would like to make is that both views are in the vast majority of cases easily interchangeable to describe one and the same person- but everybody know that this is the case, its obviously true.Frost122585
April 2, 2008
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StephenB, "I am not sure what you mean. Do you consider theistic evolution as being in the ID tent?" I'm actually wondering if it is. If it's not, I think it should be. Again, I'm just one person. However, I do recall a post on this very site where the OP mentioned that Ken Miller himself should be on the side of ID rather than against it, based on the beliefs he outlined in his own books. Now, I know Miller somehow categorizes himself as other than TE - but frankly, if he could make the cut, so could the TEs. For the record, the conversation between jerry and scordova hits on a point that always gets to me. From the quoting of Denton: "Darwinism is claiming that all the adaptive structures in nature, all the organisms which have existed throughout history were generated by the accumulation of entirely undirected mutations. That is an entirely unsubstantiated belief for which there is not the slightest evidence whatsoever." 1) There really IS no evidence whatsoever for "undirected" in that statement, and the word (the problem remains even if it becomes 'random' or otherwise) is utterly loaded. If the critics of ID are right, there is no way to scientifically detect for design. If that's the case, 'undirected' fails as a description on the spot. We can still talk about mutations driving change - maybe they're ultimately random, maybe they're ultimately directed. But that debates gets outside of science. And that, by the way, is a point that D'Souza essentially makes himself, when it comes to the unjust mixing of atheism with science. 2) Notice that you can reject this Darwinian interpretation of evolution - but still accept evolution on other grounds. You can accept common descent, you can accept micro to macro, you can accept a whole lot of the orthodoxy - but you can still be rejecting neo-/darwinism, or very critical of it. Look at Lynn Margulis for an example. She's not an ID advocate, but she rejects the standard stories of evolution, and recognizes the frankly political nature of some of its development. Look at Denis Noble, who again doesn't (to my knowledge) accept ID, but who has strong criticisms of evolution as commonly touted, and argues that 'Selfish Gene' views are inadequate and somewhat shallow. 3) I'll say again: I don't think TEs are somehow an 'enemy' to ID, and I don't think they're all a bunch of people who have sold out to materialism, and damn certainly not atheism. If anything, they're making what may be a stronger claim than many ID advocates: That even if darwinian evolution (or something close to it) is true, the atheist paradigm is still utter bunk. Many of them honestly don't feel evolution to be a threat to their faith, or faith in general - they see that as a canard, an idea popularized wrongly by atheists. I do not think that view should be discounted. 4) DaveScot rightly points out that even if ID is correct - even if it's correct in the strongest senses of the word - it doesn't establish that the Designer is God. It establishes that a strong, maybe even unfathomable, intelligence was behind life and perhaps more. But going from that to God will always require faith. Remember that when he was convinced there was no realistic chance for an Origin of Life event on earth, Crick didn't entertain the thought of God for one moment - he dove right for the extraterrestrial intelligence. If ID ever establishes 'intelligent causation' as a good possibility for life and the development of life, get used to hearing about that. Hell, get used to talking about how our advances in the sciences prove that you don't need to be God to manipulate genes, brains, or anything else, and that "Ironically, Intelligent Design's success made the idea of God less likely than before". It will be a load of bunk, a mischaracterization, a politicization - but it will happen upon the instant. Insofar as darwinism and evolution are offered up as inherently atheistic, the subjects are utterly abused. TEs largely point out this abuse, though frankly they've had less of a focus on the science and details than ID has offered. I don't think they should be automatically discounted for holding these views - in fact, I think they should be encouraged. So ideally, I'd love to see far more ID proponents coming from a TE angle - people who accept most of the orthodoxy, and argue design can be seen even there, that it may well be the best explanation for what we've seen on earth, and how the popular atheistic views of chance and randomness are base and inaccurate.nullasalus
April 2, 2008
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Dave excuse my confusion here. The first of your posts to me quoted this statement of mine... "You seem to have a big problem with people who believe in the possibility of divine intervention (like myself). Can you prove that it never happened or cant happen? No you cant." I’m not sure where I wondered off the reservation. I feel like you are painting me into a corner. You have read enough of my posts over the months to know that I know the difference between religion and science. My points are addressed to Jerry's claims which are best represented in this quote of his...
"So every time I see someone trashing the Darwinian paradigm of RM + NS as nonsense, I cringe because it is undermining ID. They think they are supporting ID but what they are doing is denying the obvious and when they do that they make ID look silly, A more sophisticated approach would be to embrace elements of the Darwinian paradigm as obviously working and really good design but it can only explain so much before it runs into real trouble."
First of all good design is never going away. If its good like having fingers- its always good. At least for the historical time that it was good. This goes right back to probability. Why should good traits come around in the first place? NS does nothing to elucidate this matter. And that in it of itself is casting doubt on the quality of NS in regards to the formation of the complexity of life. I just think that Jerry as i said above needs to be a little more accepting of other peoples skepticism and beliefs. Some are hurting ID but calling into doubt NS and RM is practically all that we do here at the site. If Jerry is claiming that people are saying that "mutation" doesn’t take place then his point is absurdly moot. I have never heard anyone claim that. This reminds me of when Ali g asked Buzz Aldrin “if the moon really exists” when what he was spoofing was the question many conspiracy theorists ask which is “did we really go to the moon.” NS is not IMOP that powerful a mechanism. Behe says in Edge of Evolution that he thinks it only accounts for 2% of evolution and he accepts common descent!!! So tell me now who is doing harm to the ID movement again? How do your claims match up against the Penn State biologist’s?Frost122585
April 2, 2008
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Salvador, You continue to bring up macro evolution when I am talking micro evolution. Do you read what I have said?jerry
April 2, 2008
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Dave, I am certainly not an expert on extinction but I made a quick comment and usually when I comment on it I make the point that most current extinctions are due to human activity. That seems to be the fate of the mammoths and the Dodo and not genetic breakdown. We should be able to witness the potential destruction of a species in their genomes. Has that been verified yet? There are over 4000 genomes that have been sequenced. As far as using the EF for the age of the earth and common descent I am not sure how it would work. Why not start a thread on it. I would think the EF would eliminate the young earth because of the likelihood of natural processes explaining the old earth. For common descent, I do not have a point of view on universal common descent but personally think it unlikely. I like the arguments by Meyers in his treatise on the Cambrian Explosion. But for limited common descent, I think it is highly likely within many orders. Good night.jerry
April 2, 2008
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