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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
E.Seigner:
The illogical answers given here, such as “Intelligent Design theory does not attempt to distinguish things which are designed from things which are not” directly show that the project must be utterly purposeless, insofar as logic is involved.
You tend to strengthen the perception that you are not arguing fairly by removing the above quote from the context of VJT's contrasting clarification:
VJT: What Intelligent Design theory is attempting to do is identify things which can be shown on mathematical and scientific grounds to have been designed. These things are just a tiny subset of the set of things which can be shown on philosophical grounds to have been designed. [emphasis in the original]
If the above is illogical as you claim, you could demonstrate how this is so. Or you could provide warrant for your assertion that it is a purposeless undertaking. That is, you could do these things and perhaps more if your intention was ever to give ID a fair hearing.Phinehas
August 14, 2014
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Hi Barry Arrington,
In abductive reasoning, unlike in deductive reasoning, the premises do not guarantee the conclusion. One can understand abductive reasoning as “inference to the best explanation.
Hahahaha. I'm quite familiar with the forms of inference Barry - that is not the problem. The problem is that you seem unable to read and understand other people's posts. Here is what I said:
Your framing your argument as an abductive inference rather than a deduction does nothing to make it somehow more valid.
I went on to explain, with examples that served as reductios to your reasoning, why it would be an unwarranted abductive inference to conclude that conscious reasoning was responsible for some phenomenon simply because human beings use conscious reasoning to accomplish the same thing. What you seem to misunderstand about abductions are that while they are indeed characterized as reasoning to the best explanation, they not simply the least bad of some number of unsupported assertions. There actually must be good evidence to warrant an abductive inference. There is no evidence that thunderclouds understand electrical engineering, even though human beings use electrical engineering to accomplish the same thing. It would be very silly to conclude this, even if nothing else was known to be able to produce electrical arcs. Likewise, it is unwarranted to conclude that a series of prime numbers coming from outer space, without any other evidence (such as, say, a transmission origin of a temperate planet with water and organic compounds, etc), would support an abductive inference to a conscious entity responsible for that series of numbers.
RDFish you are utterly shameless. Does it not bother you that you need to lie to try to win an argument? I think it would bother me. In any case, your bad faith is on display for all to see.
Barry, you are an angry man. Calling my arguments "lies" is a schoolyard taunt. I'm used to that here. What is special in your case is your particular combination of arrogance and poor reasoning skills. :-) Cheers, RDFish/AIGuy UD Editors: RDFish's strategy. Get caught in a lie. Double down and insult the person who caught you. Unseemly, sad and pathetic all at the same time. RDFish
August 14, 2014
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RDF
I think, actually, that you are confusing two of our disagreements: One is the matter of “intelligence” being the complement of chance+law, and the other being the attempt to define “intelligence” as “that which produces CSI”.
No. Definitions have nothing to do with the chronological order of the steps involved in applying ID's scientific method, all of which have been explicitly articulated. The assumption of free will in not included (or implied) in any of those steps. It is nothing but a fantasy that you have created in your own mind.
If you didn’t clutter up your arguments with your amateur psychoanalysis and ad hominem arguments, you might make more sense.
Anyone who says, as you did, that "ex-nilio creation" is the same thing as "something coming from nothing" is being willfully illogical. There is no question about it. The fact that you tried to double down after being corrected and that you are now afraid to revisit the subject is further proof that you do not always argue in good faith.
You say that “intelligent” means “able to produce CSI”, and that’s that.
I have never said such a thing. Why do you just make things up like that? Do you expect to win minds and hearts that way? My position, which you know very well, has always been that there are basically two compatible definitions of intelligence, both of which involve the capacity to choose between alternatives for the sake of a specified end. One contains the element of "consciousness," the other does not. The difference, which is very mild indeed, will depend on the paradigm being used.
In that case, just give me the one single definition in this particular context: You have concluded that the high levels of CSI observed in flagella support the inference that flagella are the result of intelligent causation. What definition of “intelligent causation” is appropriate in that context?
In that context, the definition of intelligence is the capacity to choose between alternatives for the sake of a specified end. SB: Meanwhile, my challenge has gone unanswered. There is a machine on the planet Mars that performs an obvious function. Provide a context that would make it impossible to know whether or not it was designed by an intelligent agent. .
Your question can’t possibly be answered until you say how to test for intelligent agency!!!
That's just silly. You have always had my definition of intelligence on the record. My question cannot be answered because the anti-ID partisans, of which you are one, cannot support their claim that it is necessary to understand context in order to detect design. Thus, when I present a specific example to challenge them, they, meaning Feser and his supporters, head for the tall grass.StephenB
August 14, 2014
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RJFish: I certainly have no interest in challenging people’s intuitions about creation.
Obviously you do, because of your consistent hyper-skepticism of abductive reasoning. Inferences to the best explanation, of which ID is one, is not something scientifically nor mathematically provable beyond all doubt. Yet everyone does it, including you, every day of your waking life. Living one's life would be impossible without it. It "seems to work". This is intution. And you have it too. But for biology (OOL in particular) you seem to have a road-block erected. At any rate, until someone demonstrates why we shouldn't approach biological artifacts this way, I for one, will merrily go on thinking, say, the DNA replication system, is the product of design because that inference is the best one so far. It's the reasonable thing to do.
WJMurray: Anti-ID advocates are in the unenviable position of denying that ID is distinguishable from non-ID, even while they live a life utterly dependent upon their capacity to do so.
Applicable to you, RJFish. And worthy of framing.Vishnu
August 14, 2014
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ES, BTW, design is never without purpose, that is intent. If purpose -- which can be inferred from FSCO/I etc -- is absent, then we do not properly call the thing in question designed. And with high reliability we know that such an entity will be shaped by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity and will not exhibit features such as FSCO/I. The needle in haystack challenge is just too stiff. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2014
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RDF:
BA: In 48 above RDFish has already admitted: “The only known source of such a series is a human source” so let us use Mr. Fish’s own admission and do a little elementary reasoning. 1. What is it about humans that makes them able to generate such a series? Obviously, it is their capacity for abstract reasoning. 2. Thus, the only known source of such a series is able to produce the series because it has the capacity for abstract reasoning. 3. We can infer, therefore, that any source that has the ability is able to do so on the same basis.
RDF: No, you’ve made a simple logical error. Your argument thus far is this: 1. X generates Y by virtue of Z 2. Therefore anything that generates Y must do so by virtue of Z But of course this is fallacious, since something else could well generate Y by some other means.
Wow. This is obtuse even for you, RDF. Did you really miss the empirical nature of Barry's formulation? Did the significance of "the only known source" simply pass over your head? His argument is: 1. X, the only known source of Y, generates it by virtue of Z, the only know means of generating Y. 2. Given a lack of contrary evidence, the best explanation for the means for generating a newly discovered Y, whose source is not X, is still Z. That something else could well generate Y by some other means has no bearing on the validity of this inference to Z as the best explanation available. Will you concede this?
RDF: No, that is a perfectly horrible argument, Barry.
The horror is only in your wanton mischaracterization of the original argument.Phinehas
August 14, 2014
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E.Seigner: How would you define design so that you would be able to detect intent in it so as to distinguish it from design without intent?
For starters, coded information. That's what SETI is looking for as per their website. And it's right there in our DNA/ribosomic replicator. Also, functional/specific complex specific information above a threshold, of say, 500 bits, which has been explored over and over on this website. If you have a better explanation for that than a "mind", that is, something other than a thing with intent and foresight and an understanding of nature beyond the chance and necessity of the physics and chemistry we know about, I'd like to hear what it is.Vishnu
August 14, 2014
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Hi RDFish, Going back now to #115, recognizing that a lot has already been answered by others, I'll try not to be repetitious.
You insist that once we have all the information available about this extra-terrestrial something – namely that it can generate primes – then by comparing it to something else (humans) we somehow gain more information about the extra-terrestrial source. I disagree – I think you’ve gained no new information at all about the source; rather, you have simply made a comparison between information you had about the extra-terrestrial source and the information you have about humans. Let’s agree to disagree on this point.
Well, I'd rather not walk away especially since I think we're getting closer to an agreement, so if it's ok - I'd like to try again. First, back in #48 you said about the extraterrestrial transmission: "...There may be something other than human beings in the universe capable of producing a series of primes, but if there is, we know absolutely nothing about it." Now above you said: "you’ve gained no new information at all" about the source. The important difference? It's the distinction between "knowledge" of something and "information coming from it". A single thing can provide a finite amount of information about itself. No matter how much you look at it, nothing more comes out. I was going to say as opposed to TV but maybe not. :-) But let's say, a living person continues to generate information. But you said "we can know nothing more". Knowledge is different than capturing information. We get knowledge about the thing by comparing and contrasting. That's how we analyze, gain insights and eventually draw inferences. Through comparison. But this is what you said above "you have simply made a comparison". Yes, exactly. That's how the reasoning process works. It's not just a receiver of information. It compares and weighs and then judges - to reach knowledge. So, that's why I disagree. You said we "know absolutely nothing more" -- but through comparison we do know much more.
SA: We did agree that a Shakespearean sonnet would be an indication of human-like intelligence. But why do you think that? RDFish: For the obvious reason: Anything that authored an exposition regarding life, death, love, and other aspects of human life, replete with references to human beings, their hearts, minds, hands, and so on, and rendered in a human language, would strongly suggest that the author was human-like in many respects.
I thought that was a good answer (as were others). But you did exactly what I would do with prime numbers. You compared Shakespeare with other reference points: - human-like language - human life references - references to human bodies, hearts, etc You get that information from the content of the Shakespearean poem, but only because you know the reference-points. If you didn't know English, the poem might look like random gibberish. In any case, you recognize a big difference with a sonnet and a series of prime numbers, as I do. But you did discern human-like intelligence at work. It's because you compared it with human-like intelligence outputs (from Shakespeare) that you know of.
SA: Also, what are the many differences you can think of between a string of prime numbers and a set of random numbers? RDFish: All of the members of the first set are only divisible by 1 and themselves, but not of the second.
This answer was not as good, in my view. There is quite a lot more you know about the difference between prime numbers and random: Random: Generated my countless, known natural sources Prime: Not generated by any known natural source Random: Not appearance of known calculation (for specified set) Prime: Product of known calculation Random: Not indicator of complex specificity Prime: Indicator of complex specificity So, we know a lot of differences between the two sets of numbers. We have to eliminate all known natural sources. We do have a known human-intelligence based source.
Different animals have different mental abilities. Virtually all animals are capable of learning. Some are capable of using tools, others are not. Some communicate using sound, others using chemicals, and still others don’t appear to communicate with others of their species at all. And so on.
This is back to a good answer again -- thanks for offering this. I agree. Animals have intelligence. We see different capabilities. We could propose that other organisms: 1. All have different intelligences, or 2. All have different versions of the same thing called 'intelligence' But we really don't know. Bees produce complex functional designs, respond to variable inputs, coordinate a social structure, communicate and respond to information, and more. Beavers show intelligent behaviors in building complex specified environments. Crows show intelligence by learning and use of tools. Some will say that plants show intelligence by communication and variable responses to environment. Do bees have the same thing called 'intelligence' that beavers do? Or are they entirely different things? If different, then you observe several different kinds of intelligence in different beings. Bees, crows, beavers, plants and many other organisms. But all of those intelligences have common characteristics. We measure, in part, the fact that they are intelligent from their outputs (bee hives, beaver dams, bird calls) which are all common to intelligence. If it's all this one thing we call 'intelligence' but found in various organisms in different varieties, then how did it get there? Darwinism cannot explain this, and I'm glad to know you realize that. So, you make some inference about what you really don't know. Intelligence exists in different varieties, or perhaps there are totally different things called 'bee intelligence', 'crow intelligence', 'plant intelligence'. Now we see something with CSI. We know there are various intelligences at work in nature. They all have similar outputs. To say now that when we find CSI from an unknown source that there is no basis in which to infer some other kind of intelligent source -- seems to me to by hyper-skeptical. It doesn't seem reasonable. But I'll just ask -- why do you resist that conclusion so strongly? It's really not that far of a reach from evidence to inference in this case.
In forensics (or Shakespearean sonnets), we have an enormous amount of context, because we assume the source is a human being (or something mighty similar). In the case we’ve been discussing, we have no other context at all, and so we could not assume it could do anything other than what we observe it to be doing.
Here's where we had a misunderstanding. StephenB explained this previously. In the case of the Shakespearean sonnet, what we call 'context' (in this thread) refers to factors surrounding the sonnet (where it came from, what media it was communicated through, how it was discovered, etc). The words themselves have no context -- they're just a string of characters. We compare them to known language and the known output of a human author and find a match. But the context in which we find them do not add to our knowledge that this was a human-like intelligence (as you agreed) that produced them. They could be written in stone on the moon, or received as an audio-signal or even coded into numbers. For example: 19 9 2 20 20 1 19 4 Simple alphabetic decoding: "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day" (now imagine it went on for the whole sonnet). There is no real context for those numbers (although they came from me, posted on a forum) just like the string of prime numbers. But when compared to a known human-based string it matches exactly. We conclude a human-based source was involved.
It is like the prime number series, and not the Shakespearean sonnet, or the fingerprints at the crime scene.
Again, I agree with you that the prime number example was weaker evidence of ID. However, I don't think the nature of the string itself is "context". In other words, you can't just say 'take any string of prime numbers'. I believe the string was specified (or it should have been). What if the prime numbers could be de-coded into Shakespeare's Sonnet 18? If they were ordered that way, and you could read the first 1 or two digits, you could spell out the entire poem entirely in prime numbers. If the ID project found that kind of thing -- in no matter what context (emanating from a space craft, from a planet's magnetic field, carved into rocks, from audio signals or light pulses) ... it would still be an indicator of a human-like intelligence at its source. One last point ... you said:
I argue that the conclusion of ID, which I take to be using biological form and function to infer human-like mentality
First of all, ID is not limited to biology. But aside from that, as above, the context (biological form and function) does not affect the inference that can be drawn from the information we get from the source. If a dust-cloud left behind the perfect lettering, spelling and punctuation of the sonnet in question - we'd infer that some intelligent source was involved and not the dust and wind itself. We compare the complex, functional information network we find in the cell with known complex information networks we know of from human sources and we find a match. Just like we compare an extraterrestrial Shakespearean sonnet with known sources of English language poetry and find a match. You really should be willing to conclude that 'some human-like intelligence was most likely involved in the origin of the communication network we observed' - even if you don't want to draw conclusions about the specific nature of that human-like source. Again, I'm not sure why you're resisting this. Yes, I understand healthy skepticism and not wanting to jump to unwarranted conclusions. But inferences are not statements of absolute certainty. They're reasonable conclusions based on what we know. At the same time, I don't think you're that far away from reaching similar conclusions to what ID proposes-- as I see it anyway.Silver Asiatic
August 14, 2014
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From Wikipedia:
In abductive reasoning, unlike in deductive reasoning, the premises do not guarantee the conclusion. One can understand abductive reasoning as "inference to the best explanation.
Step 4 of Barry’s argument:
4. From this we infer that the best explanation for the series is that it was generated by some agent with the capacity for abstract reasoning.
RDFish after his first response was thoroughly discredited:
You have substantially restated your argument as anyone can see. . . . Your framing your argument as an abductive inference rather than a deduction does nothing to make it somehow more valid.
Conclusion: My argument was always abductive in nature, and RDFish’s statement that I changed it in response to his criticism is an obvious lie. RDFish you are utterly shameless. Does it not bother you that you need to lie to try to win an argument? I think it would bother me. In any case, your bad faith is on display for all to see. Barry Arrington
August 14, 2014
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Earth to RDFIsh- ID has stated what an intelligent cause is/ entails. Just because you refuse to listen doesn't mean anything to us. Why do you think that your continued willful ignorance means something?Joe
August 14, 2014
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Anti-ID advocates are in the unenviable position of denying that ID is distinguishable from non-ID, even while they live a life utterly dependent upon their capacity to do so.William J Murray
August 14, 2014
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RDF said:
Any valid proposition can be validly restated in different words, as long as those words are defined appropriately. So, simply restate the proposition “flagella are the result of intelligent cause” without using the word “intelligent”. Can you? If you can we might stand a chance of making progress.
Flagella are the result of an intentional cause. Flagella are the result of a deliberate cause. Flagella are the result of an agency arranging materials and forces towards a conceptual goal.William J Murray
August 14, 2014
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PS: Text on this page, similar string data structures and the like are simple cases of FSCO/I, and the sort of data reported in file size 198.7 k bytes is a metric of FSCO/I. As per AutoCAD etc complex 3-d functional entities can be reduced to coded strings, discussion on strings is WLOG. All this RDF knows, or should know -- should have known for years since his first engagement in discussions here at UD. He needs to show good reason why we should not take his assertions above as manifestations of ideologically driven selective hyperskepticism. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2014
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RDF: The easiest test for intelligent agency in action is to look for functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I. Once we have 500 - 1,000+ bits, it is empirically reliable that such items are designed, and it is also analytically plausible per needle in haystack blind search analysis. Accordingly, it is a direct application of the vera causa principle and linked inference to best explanation, to take the FSCO/I evident in remnants of early life forms and diversification of body plans as signs of design. Likewise, the fine tuning that gives rise to a cosmos and a solar system that support cell based C-Chemistry, aqueous medium life using gated metabolic molecular nanotech automata replete with codes and algorithms, with a von Neumann self replication facility. This, you know or should know long since. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2014
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ES: Perhaps this can help you understand what design theory is, on its own terms, here from NWE -- Wiki's article is a notorious and ideologically driven hatchet job:
Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" [1] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things. Greater clarity on the topic may be gained from a discussion of what ID is not considered to be by its leading theorists. Intelligent design generally is not defined the same as creationism, with proponents maintaining that ID relies on scientific evidence rather than on Scripture or religious doctrines. ID makes no claims about biblical chronology, and technically a person does not have to believe in God to infer intelligent design in nature [--> try David Berlinsky and Sir Fred Hoyle]. As a theory, ID also does not specify the identity or nature of the designer [--> as in that credibly tweredun, is distinct from whodunit], so it is not the same as natural theology, which reasons from nature to the existence and attributes of God. ID does not claim that all species of living things were created in their present forms, and it does not claim to provide a complete account of the history of the universe or of living things. ID also is not considered by its theorists to be an "argument from ignorance"; that is, intelligent design is not to be inferred simply on the basis that the cause of something is unknown (any more than a person accused of willful intent can be convicted without evidence). According to various adherents, ID does not claim that design must be optimal; something may be intelligently designed even if it is flawed (as are many objects made by humans). ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent. It conflicts with views claiming that there is no real design in the cosmos (e.g., materialistic philosophy) or in living things (e.g., Darwinian evolution) or that design, though real, is undetectable (e.g., some forms of theistic evolution). Because of such conflicts, ID has generated considerable controversy.
I could elaborate, had I the time -- I don't; this is Legislative Assembly sitting day here and at the height of the local silly season, where also I have Hayek's investment and production chain triangle in mind as a possible way to brief and communicate issues on the bridge between micro of the firm, interest rates and economic growth to elected reps (cf here); with further issues connected to tech driven long waves a la Kondratiev, creative destruction per Schumpeter and Solow's insights on growth. Something that is genuinely hard to understand. I suggest, that you have a look at the UD Weak argument correctives and the expanded definition of ID at the top of this and every UD page under the Resources tab. G'day, KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
Two thousand years of history, science and philosophy have taught us that we know of only intelligent causes and natural causes.
But what, exactly, separates the two? You never answer.
Suppose another kind of cause was discovered.
Since we have no way of distinguishing these two sets, we can hardly expect to establish a third!
My guess is that you would continue on your same course and hold out for yet another kind of cause—and yet another—and still another.
Rather than address my point, you imagine future scenarios where I do things I would not do???
As far as ID science is concerned, its proponents have already covered that ground, acknowledging that they could be wrong.
Unless ID says what an "intelligent cause" is, they are neither right nor wrong. They simply are incoherent.
In other words, they allow for the prospect that another kind of cause is a logical possibility. So, in that context, they are being doubly reasonable and you are being doubly unreasonable to ignore their acknowledgement.
I am, extremely reasonably, asking endlessly for one single thing, over and over and over again: An explanation of what test can distinguish an intelligent cause from a natural cause. I never get an answer.
RDF: However, in all of the times we’ve debated, you have never been willing to provide an inclusion criterion for these sets. In other words, you (and again, by “you” I really am speaking about ID proponents in general) can’t say what test to apply in order to decide if something belongs to one set or the other. SB: The whole of human history is a very good test.
I am asking for a test - in other words, an inclusion criterion - that will divide causes into intelligent vs. natural causes. You tell me this test is "the whole of human history", which is not a test at all. If I put something before you and ask you to determine, using "ID science", whether or not this thing is intelligent, you say "Simply test it by using the whole of human history!" This makes no sense.
It isn’t infallible and it isn’t self-evident, but it’s a lot better than what you have been offering, which is the notion that reasonableness ought to be challenged at every turn. Indeed, as I reflect on our history (yours and mine), it has almost always involved your denial of a self-evident truth. One event that stands out was your claim that “ex-nilio creation” is the same thing as “something coming from nothing.” Only someone who is dedicated to avoiding the truth could come up with such an absurd proposition. I think you have first cause phobia and I think it leaks into your analysis of every topic.
This is nothing but a bizarre ad hominem that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is what is the inclusion criterion for determining if something is an intelligent cause.
RDF: Most often, the answer is that anything that can produce CSI belongs in the first set, while things that cannot produce CSI belong in the second set. But as I’ve pointed out endlessly, this particular definition renders the conclusion of the “design inference” a vacuous tautology: When we observe CSI, we infer that it was produced by something that can produce CSI. SB: I have pointed out to you several times that it would be a tautology only if it comes in the form of an assumption that intrudes in and precedes the analytical process by which design is inferred. It took me six months to show you that such was not the case. Now, you are back to singing that same old tune. That fact is that a definition is not an assumption. It simply reflects one of two alternatives to be considered. It doesn’t entail the act of assuming the conclusion. If it did, it wouldn’t be an inference at all. It would be an assumption, or better yet, a presumption. Are you so committed to your ideology that you cannot differentiate between an assumption and an inference?
I have read this several times and can't make sense of it. I think, actually, that you are confusing two of our disagreements: One is the matter of "intelligence" being the complement of chance+law, and the other being the attempt to define "intelligence" as "that which produces CSI". If you didn't clutter up your arguments with your amateur psychoanalysis and ad hominem arguments, you might make more sense. In any event, my point here was that defining "intelligence" as "that which produces CSI" is ridiculous in the context of ID, since it renders ID tautological. You certainly never countered this obvious point, much less convinced me it was true! Once again, in case you actually don't understand it, just read this: Q: What is the cause of the sound we hear in thunder? A: Termeric flow. Q: What is "termeric flow"? A: The ability to produce sound such as that we hear in thunder! Q: What is the cause of the lights in the Aurora Borealis? A: Vistalogical lentoculus. Q: What is "vistaological lentoculus"? A: The ability to produce lights such as those in the Aurora Borealis! Q: What is the cause of the CSI we observe in biological systems? A: Intelligent causation. Q: What is "intelligent causation"? A: The ability to produce CSI such as that we observe in biological systems! For the 1000th time, I pray (and I'm not often wont to pray :-)) that you understand these explanations are vacuous tautologies that add nothing to our understanding and do not constitute explanations. If you settle on this definition of "intelligence", we can finally finish our debate. You say that "intelligent" means "able to produce CSI", and that's that. You can claim victory, and I'll be glad to let the fair reader decide whether or not that makes ID a meaningful explanation of the CSI we observe in biological systems. Otherwise, here is a suggestion that might allow us to make progress: I use these made-up words in my examples because they have no intrinsic, intuitive connotations, thus illustrating that without an actual definition these statements mean tell us nothing. You use the word "intelligence", relying on implicit, unstated connotations to provide meaning for your arguments. The philosopher David Chalmers has addressed this problem and suggested a solution. When this happens, he suggests that the argument is restated without using the word in question. Any valid proposition can be validly restated in different words, as long as those words are defined appropriately. So, simply restate the proposition "flagella are the result of intelligent cause" without using the word "intelligent". Can you? If you can we might stand a chance of making progress.
RDF: But in the end our debates constitute an endless dance around this single question: What specifically are the inclusion criteria for the set of intelligent agents? SB: Most of the definitions of intelligence are perfectly legitimate in the context of the paradigm that is being used to detect it. The paradigms vary, so the definitions vary.
In that case, just give me the one single definition in this particular context: You have concluded that the high levels of CSI observed in flagella support the inference that flagella are the result of intelligent causation. What definition of "intelligent causation" is appropriate in that context?
On a related issue, we have the same recurring problem. Each time we explain that ID measures the effects of intelligence and does not address the attributes of intelligence, you respond by saying — that ID fails to address the attributes of intelligence..
You can certainly define "intelligent cause" in terms of its effects - that would be just dandy! All of the forces of physics are defined in terms of their effects! If you'd like to say that the effects of an "intelligent cause" is CSI, then as I just explained, we can end our debate right here. Otherwise, simply specify exactly what the effects of "intelligent causation" are in a way that we can use to test whether something is an "intelligent cause" or not.
There is a big difference between the methods of historical science and the methods of physical science many times. It would seem that the concept of a process and a method are inimical to your way of thinking.
Instead of alluding to various scientific methods, and then adding yet another silly ad hominem argument, you would do better to actually say what it is you are talking about. The issue I've raised is this: What is the inclusion criterion for determining if something belongs in the set of intelligent causes? How does "historical science" or the concept of processes and methods answer this question?
I have argued that ID science makes free will more plausible and Darwnism makes free will less plausible.
The plausibility of free will has no bearing on the issue at hand.
ID is, indeed, consistent with free will, but it doesn’t assume free will or try to prove it.
In that case, I take it that once and for all you do not define "intelligence" as the complement of (law + chance). That's good!
Meanwhile, my challenge has gone unanswered. There is a machine on the planet Mars that performs an obvious function. Provide a context that would make it impossible to know whether or not it was designed by an intelligent agent.
. Your question can't possibly be answered until you say how to test for intelligent agency!!! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 14, 2014
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RDFish
You (like virtually all ID proponents) insist that all possible causes can be categorized as either (1) intelligent causes or (2) natural causes. Since these sets are non-overlapping, if you eliminate the possibility that some cause belongs to the first set, you can conclude that it must belong to the second – and vice versa.
I am simply being reasonable. Two thousand years of history, science and philosophy have taught us that we know of only intelligent causes and natural causes. It is reasonable to proceed on the basis of what we know as long as we don’t pretend to know more than we do. Suppose another kind of cause was discovered. Would your hyperskepticism vanish? Would you then say, “Come let us reason together?” I doubt it. My guess is that you would continue on your same course and hold out for yet another kind of cause—and yet another—and still another. As far as ID science is concerned, its proponents have already covered that ground, acknowledging that they could be wrong. In other words, they allow for the prospect that another kind of cause is a logical possibility. So, in that context, they are being doubly reasonable and you are being doubly unreasonable to ignore their acknowledgement.
However, in all of the times we’ve debated, you have never been willing to provide an inclusion criterion for these sets. In other words, you (and again, by “you” I really am speaking about ID proponents in general) can’t say what test to apply in order to decide if something belongs to one set or the other.
The whole of human history is a very good test. It isn’t infallible and it isn’t self-evident, but it’s a lot better than what you have been offering, which is the notion that reasonableness ought to be challenged at every turn. Indeed, as I reflect on our history (yours and mine), it has almost always involved your denial of a self-evident truth. One event that stands out was your claim that “ex-nilio creation” is the same thing as “something coming from nothing." Only someone who is dedicated to avoiding the truth could come up with such an absurd proposition. I think you have first cause phobia and I think it leaks into your analysis of every topic.
Most often, the answer is that anything that can produce CSI belongs in the first set, while things that cannot produce CSI belong in the second set. But as I’ve pointed out endlessly, this particular definition renders the conclusion of the “design inference” a vacuous tautology: When we observe CSI, we infer that it was produced by something that can produce CSI.
I have pointed out to you several times that it would be a tautology only if it comes in the form of an assumption that intrudes in and precedes the analytical process by which design is inferred. It took me six months to show you that such was not the case. Now, you are back to singing that same old tune. That fact is that a definition is not an assumption. It simply reflects one of two alternatives to be considered. It doesn’t entail the act of assuming the conclusion. If it did, it wouldn’t be an inference at all. It would be an assumption, or better yet, a presumption. Are you so committed to your ideology that you cannot differentiate between an assumption and an inference?
In my debates here, I have seen that ID proponents typically mean “general, human-like intelligence” as what characterizes members of the first set. This typically includes mental attributes and abilities such as learning, solving novel problems, generation and understanding of natural language (as opposed to formal languages such as computer languages, formal logic, etc), free will (of the incompatibilist sort), and conscious beliefs, desires, and intentions. Some people defend some of these attributes as necessary components of intelligent agency, and some defend others. But in the end our debates constitute an endless dance around this single question: What specifically are the inclusion criteria for the set of intelligent agents?
Most of the definitions of intelligence are perfectly legitimate in the context of the paradigm that is being used to detect it. The paradigms vary, so the definitions vary. On a related issue, we have the same recurring problem. Each time we explain that ID measures the effects of intelligence and does not address the attributes of intelligence, you respond by saying --- that ID fails to address the attributes of intelligence..
Once you answer that question, then your “design inferences” will be meaningful. But you will also have to provide justification for believing that the inclusion criteria are met by that which produced the observations in question (biological complexity, prime number sequences, and so on).
No, not true. There is a big difference between the methods of historical science and the methods of physical science many times. It would seem that the concept of a process and a method are inimical to your way of thinking.
Sometimes, the answer is given that members of the first set act in a way that is neither random nor determined – let us simply call this acting out of free will. I have argued that nobody has ever succeeded in demonstrating that anything – even human beings – have this sort of free will, to which you have argued (I think) that the methods of ID demonstrate that humans do indeed have the ability to act that way.
I have argued that ID science makes free will more plausible and Darwnism makes free will less plausible. ID is, indeed, consistent with free will, but it doesn’t assume free will or try to prove it. Of course, you have a history of making the claim that ID does assume free will, which would rule out the possibility that ID proves free will.
If we received this series of prime numbers from outer space, how would you go about determining if the source was acting out of free will or not?
Ask a good philosopher. Meanwhile, my challenge has gone unanswered. There is a machine on the planet Mars that performs an obvious function. Provide a context that would make it impossible to know whether or not it was designed by an intelligent agent.StephenB
August 13, 2014
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Phinehas
To this reader, your response @105 appears to be full of smoke screens and red herrings, with a bit of insult thrown in at the end for good measure. This is quite telling, especially given that SA’s main point remains unaddressed: SA: "Again, it sounds like you want to critique modern science and that might be a very good thing to do, but that really gives you a much bigger target than ID alone." Typically, at least in the English-speaking world, this happens when someone has scored a logical point and the respondent feels uncomfortable addressing that point on its merits.
If you think the statement that begins "it sounds like" can be considered someone's main point, then we are definitely not speaking the same language. Where I live, it can be some safely disregarded side-point. Why? Because by saying "it sounds like", it sounds like the speaker is not sure what he's saying. But to answer your question, I don't see how I critique modern science in general. Science has to be on logical grounds and, when it is, there's nothing to criticize really. You cannot say 2+2=5 and at the same time say you are doing science. Well, you can, but it would be wrong. Lawrence Krauss does it and is self-evidently wrong every time he does it. Maybe this is the standard in the English-speaking world these days: To be blatantly wrong and proud of it too. And Mr. Torley explicitly says his mission is to lower his own standards to the same illogical level and call it success. ("Thus Intelligent Design represents an attempt to engage skeptics on their own turf. It uses mathematics and science and its metaphysical assumptions are minimal.") Evidently he doesn't even see when the metaphysical assumptions are altogether inconsistent. This is why he cites the piece of alleged science that he does. If the piece of science were right, it would overturn logic - which is normally a sure sign the piece is wrong. Mr. Torley's criticism of Feser is also illogical in itself. He says the ID project not to be about metaphysics, whereas Feser's points are obviously about metaphysics, so the two should not even connect, so what is there to criticize? Yet this whole post is about it. He takes issue with the definition of context, obviously making up the definition as he goes, even though in the relevant sciences (literary science, linguistics) the logical definition is obvious - and yet he never manages to get to that relevant definition. Hence his science never reaches down to the metaphysics and logic of what he is criticizing, and hence the criticism is futile. To end on a constructive note - for the ID project to begin to make sense, it needs a definition of what is meant by intelligent design as opposed to non-intelligent design and non-design, just like biology has defined living organisms as opposed to non-living. The illogical answers given here, such as "Intelligent Design theory does not attempt to distinguish things which are designed from things which are not" directly show that the project must be utterly purposeless, insofar as logic is involved. If you are okay with that, no further comment.E.Seigner
August 13, 2014
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RDFish @ 133
You have substantially restated your argument as anyone can see.
Elizabeth Liddle has been surpassed. I didn't see that coming. (We need to enhance the post captchas to require prime numbers.)Charles
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RDFish:
You (like virtually all ID proponents) insist that all possible causes can be categorized as either (1) intelligent causes or (2) natural causes.
Intelligent vs mindless; goal-oriented vs purposeless
When we observe CSI, we infer that it was produced by something that can produce CSI.
And when we observe an artifact we infer it was produced by something that can produce an artifact! When we observe a crime scene we infer it was produced by something that can produce a crime scene! And guess what? That limits the possibilities of what caused it and it gives the investigation a pathway in which to proceed. BTW cicadas are intelligent agencies. Just sayin'...Joe
August 13, 2014
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Hi Barry Arrington,
You quoted only three of the steps in my argument.
I paused at the third step to point out the error you made at that step, noting that thus far your argument already was fallacious. In step three you said:
3. We can infer, therefore, that any source that has the ability is able to do so on the same basis.
But that inference is fallacious (a form of undistributed middle).
You mischaracterize my argument as follows: 1. X generates Y by virtue of Z 2. Therefore anything that generates Y must do so by virtue of Z Wrong. That is not even close. My argument is more along the lines of: 1. The only known cause of Y is Z. 2. We observe a particular instance of Y. 3. Because Z is the only known cause of Y, the inference to the best explanation is that this particular instance of Y was also caused by Z.
You have substantially restated your argument as anyone can see. But rather than quibble about your ploy, let's address your argument any way you'd like to state it. Your framing your argument as an abductive inference rather than a deduction does nothing to make it somehow more valid. All of my examples (which you ignored) illustrate quite well that this is the case. In the prime number scenario, the only known source of primes prior to receiving the transmission was human beings; after we receive the primes we know that there is some other, unknown source of primes that is using some unknown mechanism to generate them. Likewise, if we did not know how thunderclouds generated electric arcs (and in fact the entire mechanism is still not fully understood!) we still would not be justified in assuming that the cloud employed its knowledge of electrical engineering!
“I don’t think you are very good at this.” An ironic statement coming from someone who failed the grasp the thrust of my simple argument.
No irony at all: I was talking about your debating style. Beyond that, I have both understood and countered your simple (and fallacious) argument. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuy UD Editors: RDFish, your bad faith appears to be almost limitless. The last step of the original 4-part argument clearly indicates that the argument is abductive. Yet you claim Barry changed it into an abuductive argument in response to you. Do you have no shame? RDFish
August 13, 2014
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Hi StephenB, Your fundamental error in each debate we have is this: You (like virtually all ID proponents) insist that all possible causes can be categorized as either (1) intelligent causes or (2) natural causes. Since these sets are non-overlapping, if you eliminate the possibility that some cause belongs to the first set, you can conclude that it must belong to the second - and vice versa. However, in all of the times we've debated, you have never been willing to provide an inclusion criterion for these sets. In other words, you (and again, by "you" I really am speaking about ID proponents in general) can't say what test to apply in order to decide if something belongs to one set or the other. Most often, the answer is that anything that can produce CSI belongs in the first set, while things that cannot produce CSI belong in the second set. But as I've pointed out endlessly, this particular definition renders the conclusion of the "design inference" a vacuous tautology: When we observe CSI, we infer that it was produced by something that can produce CSI. In my debates here, I have seen that ID proponents typically mean "general, human-like intelligence" as what characterizes members of the first set. This typically includes mental attributes and abilities such as learning, solving novel problems, generation and understanding of natural language (as opposed to formal languages such as computer languages, formal logic, etc), free will (of the incompatibilist sort), and conscious beliefs, desires, and intentions. Some people defend some of these attributes as necessary components of intelligent agency, and some defend others. But in the end our debates constitute an endless dance around this single question: What specifically are the inclusion criteria for the set of intelligent agents? Once you answer that question, then your "design inferences" will be meaningful. But you will also have to provide justification for believing that the inclusion criteria are met by that which produced the observations in question (biological complexity, prime number sequences, and so on). Sometimes, the answer is given that members of the first set act in a way that is neither random nor determined - let us simply call this acting out of free will. I have argued that nobody has ever succeeded in demonstrating that anything - even human beings - have this sort of free will, to which you have argued (I think) that the methods of ID demonstrate that humans do indeed have the ability to act that way. I am happy to agree that the validity of ID rests upon the contention that it somehow empirically settles the ancient debate over free will, since I think most educated people will recognize that if that is true, ID is not in fact a valid proposition. But I will ask this: If we received this series of prime numbers from outer space, how would you go about determining if the source was acting out of free will or not? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 13, 2014
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RDFish @ 129: You quoted only three of the steps in my argument. Here is my argument in full:
1. What is it about humans that makes them able to generate such a series? Obviously, it is their capacity for abstract reasoning. 2. Thus, the only known source of such a series is able to produce the series because it has the capacity for abstract reasoning. 3. We can infer, therefore, that any source that has the ability is able to do so on the same basis. 4. From this we infer that the best explanation for the series is that it was generated by some agent with the capacity for abstract reasoning.
You mischaracterize my argument as follows:
1. X generates Y by virtue of Z 2. Therefore anything that generates Y must do so by virtue of Z
Wrong. That is not even close. My argument is more along the lines of: 1. The only known cause of Y is Z. 2. We observe a particular instance of Y. 3. Because Z is the only known cause of Y, the inference to the best explanation is that this particular instance of Y was also caused by Z. Now I have dispensed with your straw man caricature of my argument. Do you have any response to my actual argument? “I don’t think you are very good at this.” An ironic statement coming from someone who failed the grasp the thrust of my simple argument.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2014
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RDFish
Actually, the word “murder” means “the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another” (Google definitions).
Yes, the word murder does mean exactly that. However, there are other kinds of violent acts that would qualify as design. If a gorilla kills a man, then we know it was not an accidental death: an intelligent agent, not circumstances or environment, has taken a life. The dynamic of design vs. chance is what matters.
No, not at all! On what basis would you conclude that it was a human being, rather than a space alien, mutant gorilla, poltergeist, or other hypothetical “intelligent agent”?
You can conclude any intelligent agent that you like. If human agency is consistent with the evidence, then that is the conclusion that should be drawn. The point is that the agent’s existence is a conclusion of the analytical process, not an assumption. The inferential process begins with facts on the ground, not assumptions.
None of course – it is only our well-founded assumption based on the fact that only human beings do such things, and none of these other things even exist, as far as we know.
No. Forensic science, by its very nature, is open to the obvious prospect that any intelligent agent could be a violent killer. An autopsy can indicate that a gorilla, not a human, was the likely cause of death. Indeed, using the techniques of forensic science, one could draw inferences that the killer was something or someone from out of this world. If, as you claim, forensic science assumed that a human was responsible for any act, it would be impossible to draw any other kind of inference. There would be no way to differentiate between suicide (not caused by another human being), murder (caused by another human being), misadventure (killed by an animal) or accidental death (killed by physical or environmental forces)---or something else. Science doesn’t work that way. Science follows the evidence by letting the facts speak, it doesn't lead the evidence by telling the evidence what to say.
For the millionth time here, forensic scientists and archeologists use a tremendous amount of context in their work: They know a great deal about human beings and what human beings are and are not capable of doing. They never infer the existence of any sort of hypothetical “intelligent agent” – they always and only infer the existence of a human being.
Earlier you said that they “assume” the existence of a human being. Now you are saying that they “infer” it. In any case, forensic scientists do not begin with an assumption. I believe I said that already. No event is context free. That has nothing to do with the fact that no knowledge of context is needed to discern a violent act of killing from an accidental death, or a literary work from a random set of characters, or a jumbo jet from a junkyard. The kind of context we are discussing has to do with social meaning and interpretation, not physical circumstances. That is what Feser means by context, and that is the definition I am using. That is what this thread is about. No knowledge of context is needed to make a design inference.
And of course, the issue I raise is not whether something is a “designed pattern”. Rather, the issue is what attributes, characteristics, or abilities can we infer that the source of any given pattern might have, aside from the ability to produce the very pattern we observe.
You can raise any issue that you like. My issue is the chronological steps that make up the design inference, none of which have anything to do with assumptions or contexts. SB: I will tweak my challenge with another example. There is a machine on the planet Mars that performs an obvious function. Provide a context that would make it impossible to know whether or not it was designed by an intelligent agent.
And again, the question is not “is this designed by an intelligent agent?”. Rather, the question is, “What can we know about whatever this was produced by?”
Oh, but that is the question. The issue has always design vs. chance. In any case, thank you for acknowledging by your silence that my challenge cannot be met. It was meant for those who know and acknowledge what it means to allude to an intelligent agent, which, I gather, is everyone except you.StephenB
August 13, 2014
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Hi Barry Arrington,
RDFish/AIGuy says nothing can be inferred about the source of a non-repeating series of 100 prime numbers. This assertion is, of course, absurd and is a classic example of the sometimes extreme bad faith and affected hyper-skepticism ID proponents bring to these debates.
That is not an argument, Barry - that is simply name-calling. I don't think you are very good at this.
In 48 above RDFish has already admitted: “The only known source of such a series is a human source” so let us use Mr. Fish’s own admission and do a little elementary reasoning. 1. What is it about humans that makes them able to generate such a series? Obviously, it is their capacity for abstract reasoning. 2. Thus, the only known source of such a series is able to produce the series because it has the capacity for abstract reasoning. 3. We can infer, therefore, that any source that has the ability is able to do so on the same basis.
No, you've made a simple logical error. Your argument thus far is this: 1. X generates Y by virtue of Z 2. Therefore anything that generates Y must do so by virtue of Z But of course this is fallacious, since something else could well generate Y by some other means.
4. From this we infer that the best explanation for the series is that it was generated by some agent with the capacity for abstract reasoning.
No, that is a perfectly horrible argument, Barry. One could just as well reason: 1) Humans generate electrical arcs by utilizing their knowledge of electrical engineering. 2) Thunder clouds generate electrical arcs. 3) Therefore the best explanation for how thunder clouds generate electric arcs is that they employ knowledge of electrical engineering. Or this: 1) Humans solve mazes by using their conscious minds 2) Slime molds solve mazes 3) Therefore the best explanation for how slime molds solve mazes is that they use their conscious minds Or this: 1) Humans solve Steiner Spanning Tree problems by using their conscious minds 2) Soap films solve Steiner Spanning Tree problems 3) Therefore the best explanation for how soap films solve mazes is that they use their conscious minds! And so on.
This is an inference to best explanation. It is incumbent upon anyone who would challenge that inference to demonstrate why it is not the best explanation for the data set, which, of course, they will not be able to do.
Actually, it is incumbent upon you to retract your fallacious argument, and to concede that I was correct in my argument: We have no warrant to assume anything at all regarding the source of a prime series other than its ability to generate the series we observe. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 13, 2014
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RDFish/AIGuy says nothing can be inferred about the source of a non-repeating series of 100 prime numbers. This assertion is, of course, absurd and is a classic example of the sometimes extreme bad faith and affected hyper-skepticism ID opponents bring to these debates. In 48 above RDFish has already admitted: “The only known source of such a series is a human source” so let us use Mr. Fish’s own admission and do a little elementary reasoning. 1. What is it about humans that makes them able to generate such a series? Obviously, it is their capacity for abstract reasoning. 2. Thus, the only known source of such a series is able to produce the series because it has the capacity for abstract reasoning. 3. We can infer, therefore, that any source that has the ability is able to do so on the same basis. 4. From this we infer that the best explanation for the series is that it was generated by some agent with the capacity for abstract reasoning. This is an inference to best explanation. It is incumbent upon anyone who would challenge that inference to demonstrate why it is not the best explanation for the data set, which, of course, they will not be able to do.Barry Arrington
August 13, 2014
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RDFish @ 126
The text I elided from your statement did not qualify your statement – it was the “evidence of prime numbers” that missed the point.
Those were your characterizations you "elided", you are the person on this thread claiming Cicadas "mate in prime-number intervals". That was your "evidence of prime numbers" that missed your point. (face palm)Charles
August 13, 2014
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Hi Charles, I enjoy debating these issues with people who are willing and able to give fair readings to my arguments, and who debate in a civilized fashion. You continue to show you can't or won't do this. The text I elided from your statement did not qualify your statement - it was the "evidence of prime numbers" that missed the point. My referring to prime-numbered intervals as "particular intervals" in no way was a "back-pedal" or evasion. And no reasonable reading of my posts could support an accusation of "hypercredulity" (I actually think you meant the opposite, "hyperskepticism", but no matter - neither apply). You are unable to understand my point at all, despite my repeated attempts to explain it clearly to you. One final time: I am not debating whether or not we can infer "intelligence" from this or that. Rather, I am debating what specifically that term is supposed to refer to in this context. I'm sure you'll take some vitriolic parting shot, but this will be my last post to you. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 13, 2014
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Hi Barry Arrington,
RDF: Rather, the issue is what specific attributes, characteristics, or abilities can we possibly infer regarding the source of that series, aside from the very thing we have observed (the [ability to produce the] prime series itself). BA: Please answer your own question. Or are you suggesting that nothing can be inferred.
Yes that is exactly what I am saying (again, assuming no other contextual information is available). Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 13, 2014
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RDFish @ 122
No - you still don’t get it. I was not talking about "evidence of prime numbers", since there is no doubt that they exist. Do you doubt that prime numbers exist?
Here is your intellectual dishonesty in spades: I wrote (and you even quoted me): " their [Cicadas] mating was was non-intelligent, unreasoning evidence of prime numbers" But you respond to a dishonest snippet of my quote: --------------------[snipped]--------------------------------"evidence of prime numbers" You deliberately removed the qualifications I used so as to spin your position. Moreover, you previously posted:
@85 If that is the case, how could you ever substantiate your claim on the mere evidence of a series of prime numbers? Do cicadas reason abstractly and decide to mate only in prime-number intervals (13 or 16 years)? @113 But it is a mistake to assume that anything which generates a sequence of primes actually understands these concepts. Cicadas mates at prime-numbered intervals, but it’s doubtful they understand factoring.
Twice in preceeding posts you cite Cicadas mating at prime-numbered intervals, but now you backpedal and try to argue you weren't takling about Cicadas mating in 13 & 17 years as "evidence of prime numbers". In this post 122 you even re-phrase as "Likewise cicadas (the example you seem to be focussed on here) could not explain why (or even if) they mate at particular intervals." You back off from characterizing their mating on prime-number intervals to particular intervals. Did you think your equivocation would go unnoticed or that it wouldn't be seen as evasive? And here you are trying to change the subject again:
If we observed a non-terrestrial transmission of prime numbers, then without any other additional information, we could not infer that a general, human-like mentality was involved in its production
The subject I argued, is not whether a "human-like mentality was involved", but rather that a non-repeating series of prime numbers, regardless of source or context, is evidence of intelligence. And here is your hypercredulity on display:
It could be that whatever mysterious thing produced this series of primes was only able to produce that series, and could not, say, learn to produce any other series, or to explain why it was producing anything at all.
Charles
August 13, 2014
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