Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Elizabeth Liddle Agrees: Saying “It’s Emergent!” is no Better than Saying “It’s Magic!”

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

For some years now I have argued that when it comes to explaining the existence of consciousness (subjective self-awareness), materialists have nothing interesting to say, that their so-called explanation amounts to nothing more than “poof! It happened.” See here, here and here. I was gratified to learn in a recent exchange that Elizabeth Liddle agrees with me at least at a certain level. In various places in that exchange she wrote:

Certainly an emergent property must be explained in terms of the system; and clearly an explanation must be “systematic” in the sense of specifying a cascade of mechanisms. . . .

“[Emergent” is] simply a word to denote the idea that when a whole has properties of a whole that are not possessed by the parts, those properties “emerge” from interactions between the parts (and of course between the whole and its environment). It is not itself an explanation – to be an explanation you would have to provide a putative mechanism by which those properties were generated. . . .

So the claim that consciousness is an emergent property of the materials of our bodies is not an explanation – it’s a conjecture. “[I]t’s emergent” would be [on an intellectual par with saying “It’s magic!”]. To support an emergent hypothesis you would have to provide a description of the putative processes by which the property emerges. So I agree with that.

In this respect Liddle apparently agrees with Thomas Nagel: “Merely to identify a cause [of consciousness] is not to provide a significant explanation, without some understanding of why the cause produces the effect.” Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False

For Nagel, to qualify as a genuine explanation, an emergent account would make the connection between mental events such as subjective self-awareness and the electro-chemical state of the nervous system “cease to seem like a gigantic set of inexplicable correlations and would instead make it begin to seem intelligible.” Nagel concedes, however, that at this point a systematic theory of consciousness is “a complete fantasy.”

I agree with Nagel. Science has not come remotely close to explaining how a physical event (the electro-chemical processes in the brain) can result in mental events (e.g., qualia; subjective self-awareness; intentionality; subject-object duality, etc.).

Liddle disagrees. She says that scientists have in fact identified how physical events result in mental events and she repeatedly directed us specifically to the work of Edelman and Tononi in A Universe Of Consciousness: How Matter Becomes Imagination. She gives a faint sketch of Edelman/Tononi’s argument:

But I think the essence of the answer lies in our capacity to simulate the outputs of our actions before we execute them and feedback those outputs as inputs into the action-selecting process. That allows us to both anticipate and remember in what Edelman calls a “remembered present”, in which past and possible futures are integrated.

At Liddle’s behest, I have read A Universe Of Consciousness. The authors summarize their key conclusion as follows:

Memory is a central component of the brain mechanisms that lead to consciousness. . . . the key conclusion is that whatever its form, memory itself is a system property. It cannot be equated exclusively with circuitry, with synaptic changes, with biochemistry, with value constraints, or with behavioral dynamics. Instead, it is the dynamic result of the interactions of all these factors acting together, serving to select an output that repeats a performance or an act.

As anyone with any experience in this area would have suspected, Edelman and Tononi identify consciousness as an emergent property. But, according to Liddle, they have gone a step further and identified at least some of the details of how consciousness arose from chemicals. Could this really be the case? Thomas Nagel has been among the most famous and influential philosophers of mind since the early 70’s. He says that a systematic theory of consciousness is “a complete fantasy.” Does Elizabeth Liddle know something that Nagel doesn’t?

You will probably not be surprised to learn that the answer to that question is “no.” But don’t take my word for it. In his review of A Universe Of Consciousness for Nature, Raymond J. Dolan wrote: “Explaining consciousness has become the Holy Grail of modern neuroscience. Any reckoning on who has found the true path is surely premature.”

In his review for The Guardian Steven Poole wrote:

Few people these days seriously doubt that consciousness arises solely from physical activity inside our skulls. But the big question is how this happens. Why does matter arranged in this way, and not others, give rise to minds? This is a question that Gerard Edelman and Giulio Tononi signally fail to answer, despite the grand promise of their subtitle.

Where has Liddle gone wrong? I can give no better answer than UD commenter Box, who wrote in that same exchange:

The book doesn’t help you at all, it’s a classic example of the good old cum hoc ergo propter hoc – ‘correlation is causation fallacy’. Evidence is provided suggestive of consciousness being *associated* with interconnected regions of the brain. And from this, Edelman and Tononi conclude that consciousness *arises* from the brain. IOW no mechanism that describes how to get from chemicals to consciousness, but a questionable cause logical fallacy instead.

In other words, Edelman and Tononi have asserted as an explanation exactly what Nagel said does not count as a genuine explanation – a gigantic set of inexplicable correlations.

The issue here is really very very simple. And for that reason I am always amazed when highly educated and articulate people like Liddle utterly fail to grasp it. I will try one more time to lay it out step by step.

1. Merely identifying a putative cause is not an explanation.

2. To count as an explanation, one must also give some understanding of why the putative cause produces the effect.

3. Asserting that physical brain state “A” exists (whatever “A” happens to be) and consciousness exists merely identifies a correlation.

4. For physical brain state A to count as an explanation of consciousness, one must also provide an understanding of why that physical event gave rise to that mental event.

5. This has never been done; no one has come close to doing it. There is good reason to believe it is not, in principle, possible to do it.

Comments
Cross
It would be good for the materialists here to step back and consider the above. Engineers and scientists best effort in the creation and programming of Blue Genie, is the size of a building, consumes megawatts of power can only simulate 10,000 neurons. The brain weighs a couple of kilos, uses 20 watts of power and has billions of neurons. By what stretch of the imagination can you believe that this brain evolved by accident. Your faith amazes me!
No, no, no ... it's all very simple. Not just by accident. But add selection for reproductive advantage and now it all makes sense. :-) Billions of integrated neurons had to evolve so humans could find something to eat. After all, they were in Africa where no other organisms could have survived without a massive increase in intelligence, outperforming the best computers teams of scientists can produce today. The environment designed the brain. That's what a rainy season will do for ya. Emergence happens - just like magic. You don't need intelligence to produce algorithms. They just emerge. :-)Silver Asiatic
May 5, 2015
May
05
May
5
05
2015
05:49 AM
5
05
49
AM
PDT
AnimatedDust Yes they are extremely optimistic about that but we've been there before with AI's possibilities, Moore's law...... You can't fault materialists about their optimism except when its about God....... This just in about Moore's law....... interesting! http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/moores-law-computing-after-moores-law/Andre
May 5, 2015
May
05
May
5
05
2015
05:26 AM
5
05
26
AM
PDT
Andre, the article you referenced somewhat concludes that brain functional parity with human designed computers is only a few years away. My sense is that you disagree, and I do as well. Did you get that take as well?AnimatedDust
May 5, 2015
May
05
May
5
05
2015
05:07 AM
5
05
07
AM
PDT
NetResearchGuy: how close are we to solving self driving cars? While the problem is difficult, most researchers in artificial intelligence believe the problem is not intractable. Many think the solution will involve neural nets, programs that simulate the learning process of the brain.Zachriel
May 5, 2015
May
05
May
5
05
2015
04:48 AM
4
04
48
AM
PDT
NetResearchGuy & Cross How can I say this? Amen brothers. I'm not sure the average biologist actually understands that the biological technology used for living systems are orders of magnitude more efficient than what can engineer. Example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10567942/Supercomputer-models-one-second-of-human-brain-activity.htmlAndre
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
11:21 PM
11
11
21
PM
PDT
Lizzie says: "And I think that people have properties that their “chemicals” do not." Wait, wait , wait. That is NOT what you claim to think. Lizzie only believes that we are chemicals, so of course the particular chemicals mixed together have the properties they do, and the chemicals mixed together to form gold have the property they do. Different mixes of chemicals have different properties. When did the the people stop being a version of the chemicals??? Lizzie is truly a theist!phoodoo
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
09:18 PM
9
09
18
PM
PDT
I wanted to make an analogous argument to explain why I think the book EL cites does not "solve" the problem of consciousness, or even begin to. Consider the technology of a consumer available self driving car, meaning one that can drive on any public street without incident (i.e. in an unconstrained environment). How close are we to "solving" that problem? It depends on how you weigh the importance of various aspects of the solution to the problem. If you primarily consider mechanical aspects (availability of sensors and actuators sufficient to the task, and mechanical means of connecting them to a vehicle), the problem is solved. However, in terms of software, we are only beginning to solve it. Someone who has barely thought about the problem of machine vision and navigation might assume that final piece of the puzzle should be trivial, but it's anything but. Several open research problems have to be solved, and it may be decades before they are. There are also moral and legal problems to solve, like what happens if a self driven car kills someone, but let's ignore those for this discussion. Self driving cars involve sensors, pattern recognition, feedback loops, real time state tracking, future state prediction, and behavioral decisions based on all that. Heck, the car likely has a survival instinct programmed in (don't crash!). By EL's definition, a self driving car is conscious, at least a tiny bit. EL: if you believe a self driving car is NOT conscious, can you explain how it differs qualitatively from something that is conscious? Be specific if you can. Back to the main point: how close are we to solving self driving cars? In mechanical terms, 99% solved, in software terms, likely well under 1% (I can explain why in more detail, but it's not important). Let's say someone does R&D to improve the mechanical side of things, for example developing a more reliable servo or a camera with higher pixel resolution. While these are nice, they don't significantly affect how near one is to the solution! You are optimizing the 1% easy part of the problem, not the 99% hard part. A neuroscientist identifying ever more correlations in the brain, or proposing ever more detailed stimulus / behavior feedback loops is not addressing the problem of how those loops or correlations become consciousness, as opposed to just producing philosophical zombies or robots.NetResearchGuy
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
08:14 PM
8
08
14
PM
PDT
RB @ 110. You make a good point. Searle has contributed enormously to these issues. His Chinese Room experiment is utterly brilliant. Yet, like most in his field, he has drunk deeply from the materialist Koolaid, and for that reason he fails to see where his own conclusions must inevitably lead.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
07:25 PM
7
07
25
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed @ 112 Obviously not! It's magic but there's no magician, right? ;) CheersCross
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
07:25 PM
7
07
25
PM
PDT
Cross, you don't understand evolution.Upright BiPed
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
07:17 PM
7
07
17
PM
PDT
NetResearchGuy @ 45 Great post, for an IT guy like me you have nailed it. What some materialists have missed follows: poperian @ 27 quoted the following: "Virtual Reconstruction To solve the mystery, a research team from the Blue Brain Project set about virtually reconstructing (simulated on a computer) a cortical microcircuit based on unparalleled data about the geometrical and electrical properties of neurons — data from over nearly 20 years of painstaking experimentation on slices of living brain tissue. Each neuron in the circuit was reconstructed into a 3D model on a powerful Blue Gene supercomputer. About 10,000 virtual neurons were packed into a 3D space in random positions according to the density and ratio of morphological types found in corresponding living tissue. The researchers then compared the model back to an equivalent brain circuit from a real mammalian brain." Some facts about Blue Genie: "Design The Blue Gene/Q Compute chip is an 18 core chip. The 64-bit PowerPC A2 processor cores are 4-way simultaneously multithreaded, and run at 1.6 GHz. Each processor core has a SIMD Quad-vector double precision floating point unit (IBM QPX). 16 Processor cores are used for computing, and a 17th core for operating system assist functions such as interrupts, asynchronous I/O, MPI pacing and RAS. The 18th core is used as a redundant spare, used to increase manufacturing yield. The spared-out core is shut down in functional operation. The processor cores are linked by a crossbar switch to a 32 MB eDRAM L2 cache, operating at half core speed. The L2 cache is multi-versioned, supporting transactional memory and speculative execution, and has hardware support for atomic operations.[35] L2 cache misses are handled by two built-in DDR3 memory controllers running at 1.33 GHz. The chip also integrates logic for chip-to-chip communications in a 5D torus configuration, with 2GB/s chip-to-chip links. The Blue Gene/Q chip is manufactured on IBM's copper SOI process at 45 nm. It delivers a peak performance of 204.8 GFLOPS at 1.6 GHz, drawing about 55 watts. The chip measures 19×19 mm (359.5 mm²) and comprises 1.47 billion transistors. The chip is mounted on a compute card along with 16 GB DDR3 DRAM (i.e., 1 GB for each user processor core).[36] A Q32[37] compute drawer will have 32 compute cards, each water cooled.[38] A "midplane" (crate) of 16 compute drawers will have a total of 512 compute nodes, electrically interconnected in a 5D torus configuration (4x4x4x4x2). Beyond the midplane level, all connections are optical. Racks have two midplanes, thus 32 compute drawers, for a total of 1024 compute nodes, 16,384 user cores and 16 TB RAM.[38] Performance At the time of the Blue Gene/Q system announcement in November 2011, an initial 4-rack Blue Gene/Q system (4096 nodes, 65536 user processor cores) achieved #17 in the TOP500 list[1] with 677.1 TeraFLOPS Linpack, outperforming the original 2007 104-rack BlueGene/L installation described above. The same 4-rack system achieved the top position in the Graph500 list[3] with over 250 GTEPS (giga traversed edges per second). Blue Gene/Q systems also topped the Green500 list of most energy efficient supercomputers with up to 2.1 GFLOPS/W.[2]" Thats 1.4 mega watts of power consumption, 16,384 user cores and 16 TB RAM. This has "simulated 10,000 virtual neurons". The human brain is estimated to contain 15–33 billion neurons,[1] each connected by synapses to several thousand other neurons. It uses about 20 watts. It would be good for the materialists here to step back and consider the above. Engineers and scientists best effort in the creation and programming of Blue Genie, is the size of a building, consumes megawatts of power can only simulate 10,000 neurons. The brain weighs a couple of kilos, uses 20 watts of power and has billions of neurons. By what stretch of the imagination can you believe that this brain evolved by accident. Your faith amazes me! CheersCross
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
07:04 PM
7
07
04
PM
PDT
Barry:
John Searle writes: “where consciousness is concerned, the existence of the appearance is the reality.” You try to get around that by denying the reality. Denying reality is no way to live your life Elizabeth.
More John Searle on that reality:
"The famous mind-body problem, the source of so much controversy over the past two millennia, has a simple solution. This solution has been available to any educated person since serious work began on the brain nearly a century ago, and in a sense, we all know it to be true. Here it is: Mental phenomena are caused by neurophysiological processes in the brain and are themselves features of the brain…Mental events and processes are as much part of our biological natural history as digestion, mitosis, meiosis or enzyme secretion." The Rediscovery of Mind
Reciprocating Bill
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
06:59 PM
6
06
59
PM
PDT
On another thread on uD about dreams i looked at the wiki article for dreams. I read the papers from Jie Zhang. The best I thought. The truth is that its just the soul of ours that reads/uses our memory/mind. as others said here about memory. A threat to this emerging conclusing of seeing the mind as a giant memory machine is that evolutionists etc will say as Zhang says. that our conscience is simply one memory system in play with other memory systems. (dreaming being a result of this) and so a illusion of a separate conscience dealing with our brain is made. This is not true but would be the ditch they would retreat to as the important of the memory is realized as behind most human thought. it is behind it but in front is our soul/heart. keep a eye on them. Knocking one crowd down brings in another.Robert Byers
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
06:30 PM
6
06
30
PM
PDT
On a general note I would like to state that emergentism regards consciousness a (near-)useless add-on. So, e.g. rationality is seen as something that can be produced without consciousness. To me that is a deeply incoherent conception of mind and rationality. Kairosfocus quotes Reppert in post#2 pointing out the divide between chemical coherence and rational/propositional coherence, but the point I'm trying to convey here is even more fundamental: without consciousness no rationality whatsoever. Consciousness—the primordial datum—is the source of overview and context. It is foundational to rationality. It is what is assumed when we speak about rationality. Understanding is not possible without a context. Understanding something is placing it in a context. NetResearchGuy #45 makes a similar argument: you need consciousness to begin with
According to EL, our brain is just that software program with a LOT more patterns and feedback loops, but ultimately just reducible to those patterns and feedback loops. My argument is that no matter how many similar patterns and feedback loops you add to the software program, it’s not conscious. The problem is there is no whole or self to gather all the feedback loops into a single conscious unit. The feedback loop theory is merely a regress and makes zero progress on identifying where the whole or self comes from.
Box
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
05:21 PM
5
05
21
PM
PDT
Elizabeth , then I won't dare to mention Nde's as you might give the same brain based explanation that doctor patricia churchland tried in her interview of skeptiko and when her interviewer showed her how no nde researcher or study agrees with her she hangs up the phone on him. At least we know that elizabeth would never do that .wallstreeter43
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
04:50 PM
4
04
50
PM
PDT
Barry:
The question under discussion is how chemicals become conscious. You have steadfastly avoided that question. Do you really think that we have not noticed that?
So, the title of the OP "Elizabeth Liddle Agrees: Saying “It’s Emergent!” is no Better than Saying “It’s Magic!” has nothing to do with the question? That's totally unexpected. Barry:
You seem to find comfort in linguistic dodges to problems that are intractable on materialist premises. That is why, I suppose, you are so prone to resort to blah blah blah.
It's unclear how this intractability is unique to "materialism." Nor is it actually a problem anymore that the intractability of the initial conditions, the an exact count or the exact path of each water molecule will take, let alone that kind of detail for all of the initial external influences that act outside a tea pot, is actually a problem for making tea. Fortunately, we are not only uninterested in explaining those properties, but predicting most of them either, despite the fact that they are the overwhelming majority of what occurs when making tea. IOW, you're not looking at consciousness as a problem to solve, but something to justify. Of course, no such ultimate justification is possible, in practice. Nor is this unique to consciousness or materialism.Popperian
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
04:32 PM
4
04
32
PM
PDT
Adieu to you too, Barry! And thanks for the conversation, even if we didn't get very far :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
04:29 PM
4
04
29
PM
PDT
Ah, didn't scroll up enough. OK, a relatively quick response as I've got to go soon:
No Liddle. You don’t get to avoid the problem by linguistic fiat. The materialist says that STEM (space, time, energy, matter) is all there is. It follows that everything must be reducible to STEM (because it exhausts all possibilities).
To quote a US president: it depends what the meaning of is is. No, I don't think it is all there is, if by "is" you mean things that exist. I don't think that because a thing is "reducible to" those elements, i.e. made of them, or extended along them, that they are no more than those things. That is what emergence is all about - that an object can exist that has properties - including capacities - that its constituent parts do not, and vice versa. This is straightforwardly true: sodium choride has properties that neither atomic sodium nor atomic chlorine have, and vice versa, and a solution of salt contains ions that have properties not possessed by either the salt crystal or the atomic elements. And I think that people have properties that their "chemicals" do not, and that it it is not ridiculous to suppose that those properties arise from the configuration of their "chemicals".
You and I know beyond the slightest doubt that consciousness exists. We also agree that chemicals cannot become conscious, that the phrase “group of subjectively self-aware molecules” is meaningless.
Just as a group of sodium chloride molecules cannot ignite on contact with water, or bleach your hair. But added to water, they can conduct electricity. Just because the constituent parts, unconfigured, or in a different configuration, cannot do something, doesn't mean that they can't if configured in some specific manner. Again this is straightforward. Large scale entities do not "reduce" to their parts without losing properties inherent in the system of which they formed a part. Thus "chemicals" are not conscious, but configured as a human being, may be. Not because they have changed their properties qua chemicals, but because the properties of the human being are inherent to the configuration, not the parts.
Now let us consider two questions: 1. How do the electo-chemical processes of the brain give rise to subjective self-awareness? 2. Have you stopped beating your wife? (addressed to someone who has no wife or does not beat their wife) You say that both questions are equally meaningless. Nonsense. The first question is not meaningless, because consciousness does exist and all the materialist has available to account for it is STEM (to carry the analogy further; there is a wife and someone is beating her).
No. The "materialist" also has the configuration of the "STEM" items. But more to the point, the configuration may have capacities that the parts do not. Configuring the molecules does not make the molecules conscious. What it does is to create something new, whose properties include things like signal conductivity, energy storage, energy usage, buoyancy, none of which are possessed by its constituent parts unconfigured, or in some other configuration (as road-kill, for instance).
John Searle writes: “where consciousness is concerned, the existence of the appearance is the reality.” You try to get around that by denying the reality. Denying reality is no way to live your life Elizabeth.
No, I am not "denying the reality". I am absolutely clear that consciousness is real, just as salt water is real, and ionic currents through salt water are real. They just aren't properties of the parts. They are properties of the whole.
You keep coming back to this question as if it makes a difference: “how is it that certain configurations of matter are able to be conscious of things?” The obvious answer that to that question is “Because they have capacity for subjective self-awareness; intentionality, subject-object duality and qualia.” Which leads to this question: How can chemicals have the capacity for subjective self-awareness; intentionality, subject-object duality and qualia”? It amazes me that you think pushing the question back one degree of generality accomplishes anything whatsoever.
Firstly, they can have them by virtue of their configuration. But if we want to explain how a configuration can produce conscious experience, I think we have to consider consciousness as something that the configuration - the system - the organism - does, not as something the individual "chemicals" do. Each "chemical" has a role, but what that role is, is not to "be conscious of something". The role of the sodium ions is to modulate membrane potentials for instance. The role of the neurons is to summate incoming signals, and, when a threshold is reached, to send an electrical potential to an array of downstream neurons. etc. And the role of networks of neurons is to sum, selectively, signals from widely distributed brain regions etc. But I've said all this.
It is not a “linguistic dodge” to try to express a question in a way that may deliver answers Just so. But it is a linguistic dodge to try to express a question in a way that allows one to avoid addressing the fundamental issue, which is what you’ve done.
I have not.
And once you have the notion of the “forward model” – a dynamic system for modelling yourself in the future, and comparing it to the present, then you have precisely what you need for a system that models itself as an agent able to respond and decide . . . You see what you’ve done there? You’ve smuggled.
No, I have not. You are thinking statically again. I'm trying to describe a dynamic mapping process, in which what is mapped is also the mapper.
Tallis again: The belief among neurophilosophers that the brain, a material object, can generate tensed time is one among many manifestations of the insincerity of their materialism. As we have seen, under cover of hard-line materialism, they borrow consciousness from elsewhere, smuggling it into, or presupposing it in, their descriptions of brain activity. This ploy is facilitated by a mode of speaking which I call “thinking by transferred epithet,” in which mental properties are ascribed to the brain or to parts of the brain (frequently very tiny parts, even individual neurons), which are credited with “signaling,” and often very complex acts such as “rewarding,” “informing,” and so forth. The use of transferred epithets is the linguistic symptom of what Oxford philosopher P.M.S. Hacker and University of Sydney neuroscientist M.R. Bennett described, in their 2003 book Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience, as the “mereological fallacy”: ascribing to parts properties which truly belong to wholes. This fallacy bids fair to be described as the Original Sin of much neurotalk, and it certainly allows the mind-brain barrier to be trespassed with ease.
I disagree with Tallis.
Barry: I know you will not agree with me. I take comfort in the fact that I am obviously correct when I say that “chemicals do not have a rich inner life.” Liddle: No, they do not. But people do. But on materialist premises, people are “nothing but” chemicals. So your statement is incoherent. For you to be right, Crick would have to be wrong when he said: “You,” your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.”
The significant word here being "pack".
Whether he is right or wrong, Crick at least takes materialism where it must go as a matter of simple logic. You try to avoid that logic and is almost always the case with you, you wind up tying yourself up in linguistic knots (i.e, blah blah blah).
Well, I plead guilty to having failed to communicate my argument, Barry.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PDT
EL @ 102: Fair enough. Adieu.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
Well, we will have to agree to disagree, Barry. Perhaps I am talking nonsense. Perhaps I am not. I'll let you know if I conclude that I am.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
03:52 PM
3
03
52
PM
PDT
EL @ 96
And sometimes they have been right.
No, they have never been right. A sophist gives that retort only when he has been caught in his sophistry. And when he is caught in his sophistry he is, by definition, wrong.
Or at least leave open the possibility that the problem is not that I am talking “blah” but that somehow, for reasons that may be the fault of neither of us, we have failed to communicate.
I have left open that possibility Liddle. The problem is that what you've said is blithering nonsense. It is not that I am unable to understand you. I do understand you. And you are wrong.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
Lizzie: (..) we don’t observe the phenomenon directly – we make proxy measures, and those include behavioural outputs (eye movements, button-presses, etc), physiological outputs (measure of arousal, for instance, like skin conductivity, heart rate, and pupil diameter), and self-reports.
I would like to argue that “self-report” is not merely an item amongst equals on a list, but stands out as absolutely crucial. That is, all the other outputs are perfectly meaningless without it. Without self-report researchers cannot reliably link any other output to mental phenomena—the best they can do is base their findings on self-reports by others. The point being that output data—even data gathered by measuring brain-activity—on its own doesn’t tell us anything about the mind. The link with the mind can only be provided by means of self-reporting. And the person who self-reports may even be untruthful—there is no way to know for sure. IOW “from the outside” we cannot look into the mind—we do not see decisions, thoughts, consciousness or any other “part” of the mind.Box
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Because I don’t think that “chemicals” “become” something we call “conscious”. I don’t think that “conscious” is a state that chemicals can take. I don’t think that consciousness is a thing that chemicals can transform themselves into. I think there is a problem with the question, just as there is a problem with the question “have you stopped beating your wife?” when addressed to someone who has no wife or doesn’t beat one.
No Liddle. You don’t get to avoid the problem by linguistic fiat. The materialist says that STEM (space, time, energy, matter) is all there is. It follows that everything must be reducible to STEM (because it exhausts all possibilities). You and I know beyond the slightest doubt that consciousness exists. We also agree that chemicals cannot become conscious, that the phrase “group of subjectively self-aware molecules” is meaningless. Now let us consider two questions: 1. How do the electo-chemical processes of the brain give rise to subjective self-awareness? 2. Have you stopped beating your wife? (addressed to someone who has no wife or does not beat their wife) You say that both questions are equally meaningless. Nonsense. The first question is not meaningless, because consciousness does exist and all the materialist has available to account for it is STEM (to carry the analogy further; there is a wife and someone is beating her). John Searle writes: "where consciousness is concerned, the existence of the appearance is the reality.” You try to get around that by denying the reality. Denying reality is no way to live your life Elizabeth. You keep coming back to this question as if it makes a difference: “how is it that certain configurations of matter are able to be conscious of things?” The obvious answer that to that question is “Because they have capacity for subjective self-awareness; intentionality, subject-object duality and qualia.” Which leads to this question: How can chemicals have the capacity for subjective self-awareness; intentionality, subject-object duality and qualia”? It amazes me that you think pushing the question back one degree of generality accomplishes anything whatsoever.
It is not a “linguistic dodge” to try to express a question in a way that may deliver answers
Just so. But it is a linguistic dodge to try to express a question in a way that allows one to avoid addressing the fundamental issue, which is what you've done.
And once you have the notion of the “forward model” – a dynamic system for modelling yourself in the future, and comparing it to the present, then you have precisely what you need for a system that models itself as an agent able to respond and decide . . .
You see what you’ve done there? You’ve smuggled. Tallis again:
The belief among neurophilosophers that the brain, a material object, can generate tensed time is one among many manifestations of the insincerity of their materialism. As we have seen, under cover of hard-line materialism, they borrow consciousness from elsewhere, smuggling it into, or presupposing it in, their descriptions of brain activity. This ploy is facilitated by a mode of speaking which I call “thinking by transferred epithet,” in which mental properties are ascribed to the brain or to parts of the brain (frequently very tiny parts, even individual neurons), which are credited with “signaling,” and often very complex acts such as “rewarding,” “informing,” and so forth. The use of transferred epithets is the linguistic symptom of what Oxford philosopher P.M.S. Hacker and University of Sydney neuroscientist M.R. Bennett described, in their 2003 book Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience, as the “mereological fallacy”: ascribing to parts properties which truly belong to wholes. This fallacy bids fair to be described as the Original Sin of much neurotalk, and it certainly allows the mind-brain barrier to be trespassed with ease.
Barry:
I know you will not agree with me. I take comfort in the fact that I am obviously correct when I say that “chemicals do not have a rich inner life.”
Liddle:
No, they do not. But people do.
But on materialist premises, people are “nothing but” chemicals. So your statement is incoherent. For you to be right, Crick would have to be wrong when he said:
"You," your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons."
Whether he is right or wrong, Crick at least takes materialism where it must go as a matter of simple logic. You try to avoid that logic and is almost always the case with you, you wind up tying yourself up in linguistic knots (i.e, blah blah blah). Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
03:29 PM
3
03
29
PM
PDT
Elizabeth:
And that is why I am trying to explain what I think the more useful (and answerable) question to ask is, namely: “how is it that certain configurations of matter are able to be conscious of things?”
Intelligent Design. :cool:Joe
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
03:06 PM
3
03
06
PM
PDT
Because I don’t think that “chemicals” “become” something we call “conscious”. I don’t think that “conscious” is a state that chemicals can take. I don’t think that consciousness is a thing that chemicals can transform themselves into.
Are materialists being consistent? Do they talk this way about everything, or just consciousness?Mung
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
Translation: You’re not smart enough to understand me. Try harder. Which pretty much ever sophist has said since about 450 BC.
. And sometimes they have been right. Except that it isn't that I don't think you aren't smart enough, Barry. I think you aren't willing. So yes, try harder. Or at least leave open the possibility that the problem is not that I am talking "blah" but that somehow, for reasons that may be the fault of neither of us, we have failed to communicate.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
02:38 PM
2
02
38
PM
PDT
I am addressing the question under discussion. Nonsense. The question under discussion is how chemicals become conscious. You have steadfastly avoided that question. Do you really think that we have not noticed that?
Because I don't think that "chemicals" "become" something we call "conscious". I don't think that "conscious" is a state that chemicals can take. I don't think that consciousness is a thing that chemicals can transform themselves into. I think there is a problem with the question, just as there is a problem with the question "have you stopped beating your wife?" when addressed to someone who has no wife or doesn't beat one. Other examples are "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" or, as asked by my son: "how does a tornado see where to suck?" They raise good questions, but the questions they raise turn out not to be the actual question asked. And that is why I am trying to explain what I think the more useful (and answerable) question to ask is, namely: "how is it that certain configurations of matter are able to be conscious of things?" And that one, I have attempted to answer, many times, and is the question I suggest that is addressed by Tononi and Edelman. If you think it is an invalid, or mistaken, version of your question, please explain why. But please stop accusing me of not addressing the one you asked directly, because to do so would be tantamount to accepting its underlying premises, which I think are wrong.
I am disputing the premises of the question, namely, that consciousness is something you “are” or “have”, and that the task of anyone who claims that it can arise from material bodies must account for how that matter either (in the first case) transforms into consciousness, or (in the second case) acquires the stuff. Yes, that is exactly what a materialist must demonstrate. This is, as you say, an impossible task. Well, at least we agree on something.
Right. Or, this "materialist" may consider that the problem lies in conceptualisation that underlies the form of the question. As I have tried to explain.
I propose that it is neither: rather that it is a capacity – something that certain configurations of matter can do, and that when they do it, there is always something they are conscious of. You seem to find comfort in linguistic dodges to problems that are intractable on materialist premises. That is why you are so prone to resort to blah blah blah.
It is not a "linguistic dodge" to try to express a question in a way that may deliver answers. When Lavoisier's predecessors asked "what is the nature of this element, phlogiston, that is release when substances burn?" they could not find a sensible answer. It was resistant to enquiry. Sometimes it had positive mass, sometimes negative. The answer turned out to be to ask a question that was based on a different premise: "what is it that changes when a substance burns?" That was not a "linguistic dodge" and the answer was not "blah blah blah" even though when Lavoisier started babbling on about hydrogen and oxygen and water not being an element, many might have that that's exactly what he was doing. Maybe that's why they sent him to the guillotine.
You seem to believe that saying that certain configurations of matter can “do” something somehow advances the ball. It does not. You have merely pushed the question back one step. And that next step is: “What is it about this state of matter that gives it the capacity to do?” And you are right back to where we began.
Yes, it most certainly does advance the ball. Or rather, it gets us to the starting blocks (to change the sporting metaphor). It gets us on to the "right track", and that is where Tononi and Edelman begin. And it also reveals that much of the work is already done, because, now we are on "the right track" we can see that the entire neuroscience literature (stretching back a century or so) on attention (starting with James) and awareness is all absolutely pertinent. It tells us that we need to look at perception and action, and the physical components that underlie these - the nerves that serve our muscles, the sensory organs that bring in data from the outside world. It also brings in both "feedback" and "feedforward" models of motor control (see Danny Wolpert, referenced above) and the literature (including lots of experimental literature) on how we model ourselves in space, and predict our future location of space and the position of our limbs, and the resistance they are about to encounter. And once you have the notion of the "forward model" - a dynamic system for modelling yourself in the future, and comparing it to the present, then you have precisely what you need for a system that models itself as an agent able to respond and decide, i.e. aware of her environment, and able to make decisions about how she will navigate it, able to remember it, able to change it, able to milk it for information that will inform her future goals. In other words, be conscious of herself as a being in the world.
I know you will not agree with me. I take comfort in the fact that I am obviously correct when I say that “chemicals do not have a rich inner life.”
No, they do not. But people do.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
02:31 PM
2
02
31
PM
PDT
EL @ 85 cont'd
Stop assuming my words don’t make sense – try reading them, for meaning, and working out where you disagree.
Translation: You're not smart enough to understand me. Try harder. Which pretty much ever sophist has said since about 450 BC.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
EL @ 85:
I am addressing the question under discussion.
Nonsense. The question under discussion is how chemicals become conscious. You have steadfastly avoided that question. Do you really think that we have not noticed that?
I am disputing the premises of the question, namely, that consciousness is something you “are” or “have”, and that the task of anyone who claims that it can arise from material bodies must account for how that matter either (in the first case) transforms into consciousness, or (in the second case) acquires the stuff.
Yes, that is exactly what a materialist must demonstrate.
This is, as you say, an impossible task.
Well, at least we agree on something.
I propose that it is neither: rather that it is a capacity – something that certain configurations of matter can do, and that when they do it, there is always something they are conscious of.
You seem to find comfort in linguistic dodges to problems that are intractable on materialist premises. That is why, I suppose, you are so prone to resort to blah blah blah. You seem to believe that saying that certain configurations of matter can "do" something somehow advances the ball. It does not. You have merely pushed the question back one step. And that next step is: "What is it about this state of matter that gives it the capacity to do?" And you are right back to where we began. I know you will not agree with me. I take comfort in the fact that I am obviously correct when I say that "chemicals do not have a rich inner life."Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
@Barry,
Besides, you did not address the thrust of my comment, which was that you were stupid to suggest that I was interpreting Tallis when I was merely quoting him. BTW, the appropriate response to that would be: “Yeah, you’re right; my bad.”
It would be stupid to suppose you were "merely quoting" Tallis, without some basis or reason for doing so. if you read the article -- and it's less clear as you go on here that you actually did -- you were necessarily interpreting what he said. And something in your interpretation of his words was consonant with your thinking on the subject, which is why you went to the trouble of providing the quote in the first place. Do I have that right, or do you insist that your "merely quoting" was not related to any rhetorical or illustrative point for your post?eigenstate
May 4, 2015
May
05
May
4
04
2015
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5