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Elizabeth Liddle Agrees: Saying “It’s Emergent!” is no Better than Saying “It’s Magic!”

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For some years now I have argued that when it comes to explaining the existence of consciousness (subjective self-awareness), materialists have nothing interesting to say, that their so-called explanation amounts to nothing more than “poof! It happened.” See here, here and here. I was gratified to learn in a recent exchange that Elizabeth Liddle agrees with me at least at a certain level. In various places in that exchange she wrote:

Certainly an emergent property must be explained in terms of the system; and clearly an explanation must be “systematic” in the sense of specifying a cascade of mechanisms. . . .

“[Emergent” is] simply a word to denote the idea that when a whole has properties of a whole that are not possessed by the parts, those properties “emerge” from interactions between the parts (and of course between the whole and its environment). It is not itself an explanation – to be an explanation you would have to provide a putative mechanism by which those properties were generated. . . .

So the claim that consciousness is an emergent property of the materials of our bodies is not an explanation – it’s a conjecture. “[I]t’s emergent” would be [on an intellectual par with saying “It’s magic!”]. To support an emergent hypothesis you would have to provide a description of the putative processes by which the property emerges. So I agree with that.

In this respect Liddle apparently agrees with Thomas Nagel: “Merely to identify a cause [of consciousness] is not to provide a significant explanation, without some understanding of why the cause produces the effect.” Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False

For Nagel, to qualify as a genuine explanation, an emergent account would make the connection between mental events such as subjective self-awareness and the electro-chemical state of the nervous system “cease to seem like a gigantic set of inexplicable correlations and would instead make it begin to seem intelligible.” Nagel concedes, however, that at this point a systematic theory of consciousness is “a complete fantasy.”

I agree with Nagel. Science has not come remotely close to explaining how a physical event (the electro-chemical processes in the brain) can result in mental events (e.g., qualia; subjective self-awareness; intentionality; subject-object duality, etc.).

Liddle disagrees. She says that scientists have in fact identified how physical events result in mental events and she repeatedly directed us specifically to the work of Edelman and Tononi in A Universe Of Consciousness: How Matter Becomes Imagination. She gives a faint sketch of Edelman/Tononi’s argument:

But I think the essence of the answer lies in our capacity to simulate the outputs of our actions before we execute them and feedback those outputs as inputs into the action-selecting process. That allows us to both anticipate and remember in what Edelman calls a “remembered present”, in which past and possible futures are integrated.

At Liddle’s behest, I have read A Universe Of Consciousness. The authors summarize their key conclusion as follows:

Memory is a central component of the brain mechanisms that lead to consciousness. . . . the key conclusion is that whatever its form, memory itself is a system property. It cannot be equated exclusively with circuitry, with synaptic changes, with biochemistry, with value constraints, or with behavioral dynamics. Instead, it is the dynamic result of the interactions of all these factors acting together, serving to select an output that repeats a performance or an act.

As anyone with any experience in this area would have suspected, Edelman and Tononi identify consciousness as an emergent property. But, according to Liddle, they have gone a step further and identified at least some of the details of how consciousness arose from chemicals. Could this really be the case? Thomas Nagel has been among the most famous and influential philosophers of mind since the early 70’s. He says that a systematic theory of consciousness is “a complete fantasy.” Does Elizabeth Liddle know something that Nagel doesn’t?

You will probably not be surprised to learn that the answer to that question is “no.” But don’t take my word for it. In his review of A Universe Of Consciousness for Nature, Raymond J. Dolan wrote: “Explaining consciousness has become the Holy Grail of modern neuroscience. Any reckoning on who has found the true path is surely premature.”

In his review for The Guardian Steven Poole wrote:

Few people these days seriously doubt that consciousness arises solely from physical activity inside our skulls. But the big question is how this happens. Why does matter arranged in this way, and not others, give rise to minds? This is a question that Gerard Edelman and Giulio Tononi signally fail to answer, despite the grand promise of their subtitle.

Where has Liddle gone wrong? I can give no better answer than UD commenter Box, who wrote in that same exchange:

The book doesn’t help you at all, it’s a classic example of the good old cum hoc ergo propter hoc – ‘correlation is causation fallacy’. Evidence is provided suggestive of consciousness being *associated* with interconnected regions of the brain. And from this, Edelman and Tononi conclude that consciousness *arises* from the brain. IOW no mechanism that describes how to get from chemicals to consciousness, but a questionable cause logical fallacy instead.

In other words, Edelman and Tononi have asserted as an explanation exactly what Nagel said does not count as a genuine explanation – a gigantic set of inexplicable correlations.

The issue here is really very very simple. And for that reason I am always amazed when highly educated and articulate people like Liddle utterly fail to grasp it. I will try one more time to lay it out step by step.

1. Merely identifying a putative cause is not an explanation.

2. To count as an explanation, one must also give some understanding of why the putative cause produces the effect.

3. Asserting that physical brain state “A” exists (whatever “A” happens to be) and consciousness exists merely identifies a correlation.

4. For physical brain state A to count as an explanation of consciousness, one must also provide an understanding of why that physical event gave rise to that mental event.

5. This has never been done; no one has come close to doing it. There is good reason to believe it is not, in principle, possible to do it.

Comments
*Aurelio reminds himself he is a pest on this blog and bites tongue (hard)*Mung
May 4, 2015
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AS @ 86. Congratulations. Your comment is pristine in its lack of substance. It is some trick to type that many words without actually saying anything.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Barry, with respect, if you assume that if you, Barry, either disagree with something, or find it confusing, that the other person is "posting sewage" or has "gone into full blah blah blah blah mode", then you have locked yourself into a position from which it is impossible to emerge, even if you turn out to be wrong. I am addressing the question under discussion. I am pointing out that, as happens quite often in such discussion, the problem may lie in the nature of the question. The classic example is "have you stopped beating your wife?" which presupposes that the person being questioned has a wife, and beats her. There is no coherent answer to that question that does not itself bring into discussion the questionner's premise. I am disputing the premises of the question, namely, that consciousness is something you "are" or "have", and that the task of anyone who claims that it can arise from material bodies must account for how that matter either (in the first case) transforms into consciousness, or (in the second case) acquires the stuff. This is, as you say, an impossible task. So either we can conclude, as you do, that consciousness does not arise from matter, or, we can conclude that there is something amiss with the question. And I propose that what is amiss with the question is that it presupposes that consciousness is a thing or a state. I propose that it is neither: rather that it is a capacity - something that certain configurations of matter can do, and that when they do it, there is always something they are conscious of. But every time I try to explain this, instead of rebutting it by saying: oh, no, consciousness isn't that, it is this, and providing an argument to support your premise, you simply tell me that I am posting blah. Well, I am, from that PoV, just as I would post "blah" if you asked me whether I had stopped beating my wife. "I haven't got a wife" I would say; "and I don't even beat my husband". "You are denying the existence of wife" you would retort; "you can string all the verbs together you want, but you still can't tell me whether or not you are still beating your wife". Stop assuming my words don't make sense - try reading them, for meaning, and working out where you disagree. You may persuade me that my premise is wrong; on the other hand, you open yourself to the possibility that my premise is valid.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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EL @ 82: Now you have gone into full "blah blah blah blah" mode. I have learned that when you do that and steadfastly refuse to even address, far less answer, the question under discussion, there is no point in continuing the conversation. Peace.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Exactly, Aurelio. There is much less confusion about the word "aware" and even "attention", and we know lots about how those work. The question then becomes is "consciousness" something different from either? I suggest not.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Barry
EL: Use as many verbs as you like. Hopefully when you string enough verbs together you will have a coherent theory of how chemicals can have a rich inner life. I won’t be holding my breath.
I don't need to string many verbs together, Barry. I've strung all the verbs I need, which was only one, the verb to be. And I don't even have to mangle English usage. By considering consciousness as being a matter of what were are conscious OF, we can stop regarding it as a property that some configurations of matter have, and some (possibly identical) configurations somehow don't have (as in philosophical zombies), and consider it as a something that some configurations of matter can do by virtue of their configuration, namely be conscious of things And viewed in that way, the Tononi and Edelman provides a good (and well supported) approach to precisely what a configuration of matter would have to be like in order for it to be conscious of things including the capacity to receive signals from those things, and the capacity to respond to those signals in the light of input about its present state/location/needs. That is a perfectly tractable problem. It is no longer Hard.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Perhaps the program “hello world” must be a tiny bit conscious...
Indeed. How else would it know there's a world out there to say hello to?Mung
May 4, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Turn it from a noun to a verb, as I said: think of it as something we do (like oxidise or reduce) not something we are or have (like phlogiston).
Yes. "Consciousness" can be seen as something we "do" as opposed to something we have.Carpathian
May 4, 2015
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EL @ 75.
Yes, nice parallel. Except phlogiston turned out not to exist, and consciousness does.
Yes, AS. Great point except that the point you are trying to make is totally wrong. EL: Use as many verbs as you like. Hopefully when you string enough verbs together you will have a coherent theory of how chemicals can have a rich inner life. I won't be holding my breath.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Barry Arrington:
From the article: The inward causal path does not deliver your awareness of the glass as an item explicitly separate from you — as over there with respect to yourself, who is over here. ............................................... For in either case, while appearances are “nothing but” neural activity, we still must be able to explain why some neural activity leads to the sensation (or illusion) of appearance while other neural activity does not; and we must be able to distinguish between the two by looking only at the material neurons. ............................................... Within perception, each of the senses of vision, hearing, smell, and so forth has different pathways and destinations. And within, say, visual perception, different parts of the brain are supposed to be responsible for receiving the color, shape, distance, classification, purpose, and emotional significance of seen objects. When, however, I see my red hat on the table, over there, and see that it is squashed, and feel cross about it, while I hear you laughing, and I recognize the laughter as yours, and I am upset, and I note that the taxi I have ordered has arrived so that I can catch the train that I am aware I must not miss — when all of these things occur in my consciousness at once, many things that are kept apart must somehow be brought together. There is no model of such synthesis in the brain. This is the so-called “binding” problem.
This is exactly what was demonstrated by the patient. A purely physical localized damage to the brain caused the patient to determine his parents were no longer the people he loved. His recognition of his parents were there and all the good memories he had of them and yet he no longer had an emotional attachment. If this "mental thing" did not come from the brain, from where did it come? From outside of the brain in a place that was not physically affected by the accident?Carpathian
May 4, 2015
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Aurelio Smith:
So to talk of solving “the hard problem” is like trying to discover phlogiston.
Yes, nice parallel. Except phlogiston turned out not to exist, and consciousness does. But the point is that what was really going on with phlogiston (which was turning up with all kinds of weird properties like sometimes having negative mass) is that something very real was happening, but "phlogiston" was a poor formulation of it. For me, the answer is to move from "Consciousness-as-state" to "Consciousness-as-capacity". Turn it from a noun to a verb, as I said: think of it as something we do (like oxidise or reduce) not something we are or have (like phlogiston). If I've got my Lavoisier right, which I may not!Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Box @ 70. Did you notice this in Liddle's comment at 4:
But the reason I find it persuasive is not the neuroscience per se (though the theory would fall down if their model was not supported by data), but because, philosophically, I am of the view that consciousness is the kind of thing that can be explained by re-entry, i.e. that it requires an object.
She continues to act as if there were some explanation in the book about how physical things result in mental things. And she continues to act as if the reason I reject that "explanation" is becajuse I am personally credulous. She mulishly ignores the fact that there is NO EXPLANATION. And here's the kicker. I am fairly sure she actually believes what she says. She is simply unable to grasp even what her follow atheist Poole writes in The Guardian:
Why does matter arranged in this way, and not others, give rise to minds? This is a question that Gerard Edelman and Giulio Tononi signally fail to answer, despite the grand promise of their subtitle.
Notice how none of her comments mention Poole.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
E, let me clue you in. A “reading” of someone’s work is an interpretation of their work. Quoting their work is not a “reading” of their work. It is a quotation of their work.
After you quote someone's work, it still need to be interpreted. Words are ultimately undefined. Nor can we extrapolate their meaning in a mechanical sense from any quote. The take away is that, as Popper put it...
"Always remember that it is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood: there will always be some who misunderstand[s] you."
Barry:
Now, what you did after making this idiotic assertion would be a “reading,” of Tallis work, a reading, BTW, that misses him at every level.
Merely defining yourself as being after the quotation but before the interpretation doesn't mean your take away isn't actually an interpretation.Popperian
May 4, 2015
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Floating Rock Analogy Update: Box: Rocks can't convince other rocks to float NRG: We're really good at making piles of rocks. None of them float. Or almost float. Or begin to float Popperian: I like my definition of emergence better es: I don't understand quotes. And as long as I don't use the word "magic", you're not allowed to call my materialist explanation "magic" Popperian: Non-materialistic explanations aren't materialistic, therefore they are not explanations. EL: Contra NRG, I have Faith that we can make rocks float. Or begin to float. Someday. Just-so Story #1 groovamos: Materialist explanations for rational rock movement can't explain why the floating rocks sometimes do loop-de-loops Carpathian: (whooshing sound as rocks, and g's point, go over his head) phoodoo points out lots of stuff moves, and the floating rocks do more than move EL responds with Just-So Story #2 AS brings Bucket-o-Condescension snack for everyone, and reference to Floating-Rock Cult. es character-assassinates floating rock skeptic BA: They're rocks. That float. Explain the float. Buh-bye.drc466
May 4, 2015
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RB @ 69: I realize you are desperate to change the subject away from the poverty of materialist explanations for consciousness. If I were on your side I would be too.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Aurelio Smith: Elizabeth Liddle explains to Barry (using seemingly endless patience :) )
Without any reason whatsoever, if I may so. Whatever Liddle has "explained" thus far does not address the problem presented in the OP: emergentism is a mere appeal to magic and no explanation at all..
Barry: To count as an explanation, one must also give some understanding of why the putative cause produces the effect.
Box
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
Unless dualism is true and an immaterial mind exists, in which case it would be the explanation.
Not in any sense that meets the requirement for explanation as articulated by Nagel, and advocated in your OP: “Merely to identify a cause [of consciousness] is not to provide a significant explanation, without some understanding of why the cause produces the effect.” How do immaterial minds create consciousness? You’ve no idea. How do immaterial minds interact with material objects (like brains) and impact their functioning? You’ve not the slightest. How do material brains interact with immaterial minds? No clue. What determines whether an object or organism has an immaterial mind? You’ll pass on that. Why can’t rocks have immaterial minds? Comments on this thread are closed.Reciprocating Bill
May 4, 2015
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E @ 66:
You’re aware that the entire text of his article is available just a click away, for anyone to read and judge for themselves, right?
Yes, that is why I provided a link to the article. I am not going to go on arguing with you about what the article says. I will let the readers click that link and decide for themselves. Besides, you did not address the thrust of my comment, which was that you were stupid to suggest that I was interpreting Tallis when I was merely quoting him. BTW, the appropriate response to that would be: "Yeah, you're right; my bad."Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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AS @ 64:
For one, I’ve not seen Elizabeth Liddle making the claim “physical things result in mental things” here or anywhere else.
Then you have not been paying attention. That is what the entire OP and following thread has been about. Try to do better.
For another, “the hard problem” is a human construct . . .
Translation from the materialist into English:
The fact that I have subjective self-awareness cannot be accounted for in my metaphysics. Therefore, rather than abandon my incoherent metaphysics, I will pretend the fact does not exist.
AS, when it boils down to you saying "don't bother me with the facts," there really is not much point in continuing the discussion with you. Bye bye.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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@Barry,
Now, what you did after making this idiotic assertion would be a “reading,” of Tallis work, a reading, BTW, that misses him at every level.
You're aware that the entire text of his article is available just a click away, for anyone to read and judge for themselves, right? Do you maintain, then, that Tallis' objections are scientific objections? If so, I can't find them, save for the "unsatisfactoriness" that inheres in all science -- our models are never complete or exhaustive or perfect. Or, do you understand Tallis' objections to be located around the problematic consequences he identifies if the scientific understand *is* correct, and the "absurdity" he associates with that? Those are definitely solid sources of dissatisfaction with the science, but they are not *scientific* dissatisfactions. Which seemed to be the cargo you were hoping that citation would carry, namely that "clinical neuroscientist Tallis" finds the project "unsatisfactory" *as* a scientist, on scientific grounds. Tallis' article does not bear this out, and instead invokes, for lack of a better term "Barryisms", complaints that lament the *implications* of said science, rather than faulting the science itself. I believe I can provide a rich set of quotes from the article which support my reading, and you are unable to supply *any* that support the "unsatisfactory" nature of neuroscience qua science, rather than just the continuing source of consternation and cognitive dissonance for your worldview.eigenstate
May 4, 2015
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AS @ 55:
So there’s no point in me suggesting Michael Graziano’s Consciousness and the Social Brain, I guess.
Yes, there is no point. When an idiot says he is not subjectively self-aware, it make no difference how many letters are behind his name. He is still an idiot.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Carpathian @ 62. Your question is answered in Tallis' article that I linked to in 20. Go read the article and if you don't understand the explanation we can discuss it then.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Barry Arrington:
My thesis is that neuroscience has not shown how physical things result in mental things.
A patient had stated to his doctor that his parents had been replaced with exact copies. He had been in a car accident in which one part of his brain that coupled emotional memories with visual ones had been damaged. Thus he recognized his parents but was missing the emotional component and determined they must be replicas. This is clearly a case of a physical change in the brain modifying a mental "thing". If our sense of consciousness was not material, why the change in feeling to someone we recognized and loved?Carpathian
May 4, 2015
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AS @ 60. My thesis is that neuroscience has not shown how physical things result in mental things. EL has argued that it has. She has lost that argument, badly. The hard problem has not been solved. So how, exactly, was what I said "silly"?Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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eigenstate @ 47: Barry quotes Tallis eigenstate responds: "This is lazy reading of Tallis’ words here at best." E, let me clue you in. A "reading" of someone's work is an interpretation of their work. Quoting their work is not a "reading" of their work. It is a quotation of their work. Now, what you did after making this idiotic assertion would be a "reading," of Tallis work, a reading, BTW, that misses him at every level. You really should think things through before you post silly crap on the internet.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Elizabeth:
I think that consciousness evolved..
Evolved how- by design or via accumulations of genetic accidents, errors and mistakes?
in organisms that move, because they need to be aware of their surroundings and of where they are in relation to other things, including predators and prey.
The evidence says that organisms that move in any respect are the result of intelligent design. The existence of neurons alone is evidence for ID. Do you really think neurons evolved via differing accumulations of genetic accidents, errors and mistakes? Model it- find some way to operationalize the concept. And then get back to us.Joe
May 4, 2015
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Popperian: Well, I have to confess to be a Wolpert fan! But I hadn't realised he'd come to the same conclusion. That's cool.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Elizabeth, You might find this TED Talk by self proclaimed "movement chauvinist" Ted Wolpart interesting.
Neuroscientist Daniel Wolpert starts from a surprising premise: the brain evolved, not to think or feel, but to control movement. In this entertaining, data-rich talk he gives us a glimpse into how the brain creates the grace and agility of human motion.
Popperian
May 4, 2015
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No, phoodoo. I think that consciousness evolved in organisms that move, because they need to be aware of their surroundings and of where they are in relation to other things, including predators and prey. I don't think you have to be able to move to be conscious - that is clearly not the case. I do think that the capacity to be conscious evolved in tandem with the capacity to move around.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Liddle @ 49 Wait, you mean that the only organisms we know of that are conscious move, so movement must be a necessary ingredient of consciousness? I think all of the organisms that we know of to be conscious also have a round head. Would a round head be necessary for consciousness then? What about hair? Most things that are conscious seem to have hair. And what about people that are paralyzed, are they conscious? Are you aware that many of our thoughts come from our stomach and the bacteria inside it? So I guess if you want to make a computer with consciousness, you will have to get it to eat first. I think you were better off when you stuck with, we know nothing about how or why something is conscious, except for something about emergence and magic.phoodoo
May 4, 2015
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