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More on Emergent Poofery

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This morning I looked up into the sky and saw several hundred geese flying in a formation that appeared to be a single undulating mass. It reminded me of the schools of silver fish I have seen while diving in the Caribbean that also seem to move as a single mass (those who have seen Finding Nemo know what I am talking about).

These bird and fish behaviors along with hurricanes are often used by materialists to demonstrate the idea of “emergence.” When the “whole” of a given phenomenon appears to have properties that are more complex than its constituents, the whole is said to be an “emergent property” of the constituents. With that in mind, here is a question:

Which of these things is not like the others with respect to “emergence”?

A. A flock of birds
B. A hurricane
C. A school of fish
D. Subjective self-awareness

If you picked “D. Consciousness” give yourself a star. The standard emergentist view of consciousness goes like this: The electro-chemical processes in the brain evolve in complexity, and at some unspecified point in that evolution consciousness arises. Thus mental events “supervene” on physical events, which means that subjective self-awareness is an “emergent property of” the sophisticated electro-chemical system in the brains of higher animals.

Why is this emergentist account obviously different in principal than emergentist accounts of flocks of birds, hurricanes and schools of fish? The answer lies with our old friend vera causa, also known as the principle of sufficient reason. Under this principle, you can’t just say X causes Y unless you are prepared to demonstrate the causal link between X and Y. Astrology is a classic example of the violation of this principle. An astrologer says the stars and planets are aligned in a particular way, and that alignment causes X phenomenon (e.g., you will get a promotion at work). Of course, there is absolutely no causal relationship whatsoever between the alignment of stars and planets and whether your boss is going to promote you, and therefore astrology violates the principle of sufficient reason.

How does the emergent “explanation” of subjective self-awareness violate the principle of sufficient reason? For any given proposition, the principle is expressed this way:

For every proposition P, if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.

We can see how this principle is in operation with respect to birds, fish and wind:

Birds: Birds instinctively fly in formation; when those formations are sufficiently large the birds move in response to various inputs, including primarily the strength of the wind, and collectively those movements result in the phenomenon. We might not know all of the details, but we can see how in principle the movement of the birds could result in the formation.

Fish: Same as birds.

Hurricane: Hurricanes are examples of weather, and we have a fairly good understanding of the causes of weather, including temperature, barometric pressure, etc. We can see how, in principle, those factors can combine to cause the phenomenon called a hurricane.

Conversely, we can see how the principle is not in operation with respect to subjective self-awareness. As Thomas Nagel has said the “mental” is fundamentally different from the “physical.” The burden is therefore on those advancing an emergentist theory of consciousness to explain how “physical” events can cause “mental” events. So far, no one has brought forth even plausible speculations about how this could happen. This is not surprising because it should be clear that the mental is not in fact reducible to the physical, which means that reductionist accounts of consciousness are not, in principle, plausible.

For every proposition P [consciousness is an “emergent property” of the brain system] , if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.  Until materialists come up with a sufficient explanation for why the mental can, in principle, be linked causally with the physical, the “emergent property” explanation is more like astrology than astronomy.  While it purports to be an explanation, it in fact gives no reason to believe why X causes Y.  It is a confession of ignorance disguised as an explanation, a fancy of way of saying nothing but “Poof! It happened.”

 

 

 

 

Comments
keith s, you are making accusations of a personal nature to try to deflect from the fact that your position is without empirical warrant. Moreover, when I write lengthy personal opinions about the evidence you call them spam too. such as this 'personal opinion' of mine that you called spam instead of ever citing any empirical evidence against,,,
1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted time-space energy-matter always existed. Whereas Theism predicted time-space energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago. 2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence. 3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is a ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9) - 5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of physics and chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for life like human life (R. Collins, M. Denton).- 6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (Gonzalez). - 7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geo-chemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photo-synthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth. - 8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. - 10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)– 12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. - 13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe. Embedded to the point of eliciting physiological responses in humans before humans become aware of the morally troubling situation and even prior to the event even happening. 15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale.
Let's face it keith s, you consider anything, whether evidence or personal opinion, that refutes your position to be 'spam' regardless of what it actually is because you are dogmatically committed to your atheism no matter what the evidence says to the contrary.,,, You are the worse kind of 'scientist/investigator' there could possibly be because you refuse to fairly consider evidence against your position but instead personally attack anyone who questions your unsubstantiated position!bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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BA77, It's not merely that you "cite evidence instead of lengthy personal opinions." It's that you can't make the argument in your own words, even when asked. You can't refute my argument, so you cite evidence you don't understand in support of an argument you cannot make. Yours is a faith position, not a scientific one.keith s
November 22, 2014
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keith s, Calling empirical evidence that refutes your position 'spam' does not refute that empirical evidence. Presupposing that I do not understand the issues because I cite evidence instead of lengthy personal opinions is an unjustified assumption on your part since I certainly understand the issues enough to cite the evidence that refutes your position. If you were honest in your assessment of the evidence, and not dogmatic, you would admit to the empirical refutation of your preferred atheistic position and move on. But you refuse at all cost of your own reason to do this, since you, for whatever severely misguided reason, prefer atheistic nihilism to be true. That is sad for when you die, whether you admit it or not, you WILL have to give an account for yourself before God.bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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BA77, If you don't understand the issues well enough to make your argument in your own words, then you don't understand them well enough to dismiss my argument as 'unpersuasive'. You're merely a spammer who cuts and pastes in support of your ideological precommitments.keith s
November 22, 2014
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keith s, science is driven by empirical evidence not by 'my own words', that is exactly why I cite evidence and not long personal opinions. If you understood that fact about science perhaps you would see why 'your own words' are so unpersuasive for me, and others on UD, in regards to the actual evidence at hand. The Scientific Method - Richard Feynman - video Quote: 'If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwYbornagain77
November 22, 2014
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BA77,
keith s, your split brain article, despite how enamored you are with it, or how deaf you are to criticisms against it, hardly constitutes strong evidence against the existence of the soul.
Yet when you were challenged to explain why, in your own words, you punted. That's not very persuasive, bornagain.keith s
November 22, 2014
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keith s, your split brain article, despite how enamored you are with it, or how deaf you are to criticisms against it, hardly constitutes strong evidence against the existence of the soul. The Case for the Soul - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 Now keith s, exactly why are you so blind to this clear evidence against your position?bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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Barry, If the concept of the soul doesn't make sense to you, or it's 'a mystery", as you put it -- then why do you accept its existence? Particularly when the evidence against it is so strong?keith s
November 22, 2014
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Consciousness requires a duality by logical necessity. It takes two complementary opposite entities for consciousness to exist: a knower and a known. Since they are opposites, the knower cannot be known and the known cannot know. This is true by definition. Therefore, given that all physical matter can be known, it follows that the brain, being physical, cannot be its own knower. The latter is something else. It can never be known directly. It can only be inferred.Mapou
November 22, 2014
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keiths @ 52: You focus on two words in my comment and ignore the "rest of it." Then you ask a question the answer to which is obvious from the "rest of it." That is passing strange.Barry Arrington
November 22, 2014
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If you jolt a power surge into a computer and blow a fuse it turns off. But calling that an "off switch" is a bit of a stretch. Something Tim the Toolman might claim. Calling it an "On/Off" switch is lame. Tim Taylor can even see that. On/Off switch is Pseudoscience. There must be funding and dogma involved.ppolish
November 22, 2014
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Keith & Methink, "finding the on/off switch of consciousness" sounds fantastic but it is hype sorry. Materialist driven hype. Consciousness emerges poof when electrical stimulation is stopped? Consciousness ends when electrical stimulation is added to equation? With a computer, you unplug to turn off and plug in to turn on. A human brain works opposite? Add electricity to turn off? Remove electricity to turn on? Dudes, they knocked the poor patient unconscious. Induced dreamless sleep. Sent her into deep meditation. Electrically induced coma. On/Off switch is jype driven "Science".ppolish
November 22, 2014
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Of related note, physicists are about to close last 'loop hole' for quantum entanglement,,, they are about to close the setting independence, i.e. 'free will', loop hole for quantum entanglement: Is Quantum Entanglement Real? - David Kaiser - Nov. 14, 2014 Excerpt: Even with these great successes, work remains to be done. Every experimental test of entanglement has been subject to one or more loopholes, which hold out the possibility, however slim, that some alternative theory, distinct from quantum theory and more in line with Einstein’s intuitions, may still be salvageable. For example, one potential loophole — addressed by Dr. Aspect’s experiment — was that the measurement device itself was somehow transmitting information about one particle to the other particle, which would explain the coordination between them. The most stubborn remaining loophole is known as “setting independence.” Dr. Zeilinger and I, working with several colleagues — including the physicists Alan H. Guth, Andrew S. Friedman and Jason Gallicchio — aim to close this loophole, a project that several of us described in an article in Physical Review Letters. HERE’S the problem. In any test of entanglement, the researcher must select the settings on each of the detectors of the experimental apparatus (choosing to measure, for example, a particle’s spin along one direction or another). The setting-independence loophole suggests that, though the researcher appears to be free to select any setting for the detectors, it is possible that he is not completely free: Some unnoticed causal mechanism in the past may have fixed the detectors’ settings in advance, or nudged the likelihood that one setting would be chosen over another. Bizarre as it may sound, even a minuscule amount of such coordination of the detectors’ settings would enable certain alternative theories to mimic the famous predictions from quantum theory. In such a case, entanglement would be merely a chimera. How to close this loophole? Well, obviously, we aren’t going to try to prove that humans have free will. But we can try something else. In our proposed experiment, the detector setting that is selected (say, measuring a particle’s spin along this direction rather than that one) would be determined not by us — but by an observed property of some of the oldest light in the universe (say, whether light from distant quasars arrives at Earth at an even- or odd-numbered microsecond). These sources of light are so far away from us and from one another that they would not have been able to receive a single light signal from one another, or from the position of the Earth, before the moment, billions of years ago, when they emitted the light that we detect here on Earth today. That is, we would guarantee that any strange “nudging” or conspiracy among the detector settings — if it does exist — would have to have occurred all the way back at the Hot Big Bang itself, nearly 14 billion years ago. If, as we expect, the usual predictions from quantum theory are borne out in this experiment, we will have constrained various alternative theories as much as physically possible in our universe. If not, that would point toward a profoundly new physics. Either way, the experiment promises to be exciting — a fitting way, we hope, to mark Bell’s paper’s 50th anniversary. - David Kaiser is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he teaches physics and the history of science. His latest book is “How the Hippies Saved Physics: Science, Counterculture, and the Quantum Revival.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/opinion/sunday/is-quantum-entanglement-real.html?_r=1 My only question right now is not if they will close the free will loop hole but, “By how many standard deviations will they close it?”,,, These guys don’t mess around, they closed the last loophole by 70 standard deviations, and verified Leggett’s inequality by 120 standard deviations!bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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It is also interesting to note that even though, as was shown in the Godel-Turing video, Alan Turing believed humans were merely machines, much like the computers he had envisioned, Turing failed to realize that his entire idea for computers came to him suddenly, ‘in a vision’ as he put it, thus confirming, in fairly dramatic fashion, Godel’s contention that humans had access to the ‘divine spark of intuition’. A divine spark which enables humans to transcend the limits he, and Godel, had found in the incompleteness theorem for computers, mathematics, (and even for all of material reality in general (Jaki)). Of related note, the following paper gives the ‘secret’ away for defeating the infamous ‘Turing test’: Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test – Douglas G. Robertson – 1999 Excerpt: Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomenon: the creation of new information. “… no operation performed by a computer can create new information.” http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf I consider the preceding proofs (Law of Identity and Incompleteness) to be a pretty simple and solid 'logical' proofs for demonstrating that the mind is not the brain. On the emotional side, here is a touching proof that the mind is not the same thing as the brain This following video, although the girl in the video was written off as hopelessly retarded by everyone who saw her, reveals that there was/is indeed a gentle intelligence, a “me”, a “soul’, within the girl that was/is trapped within her body. And that that “me” was/is unable to express herself properly to others because of her neurological disorder. Here is a short teaser for her book telling the struggle of her ‘miracle’ breakthrough to be enable her to communicate with the outside world: Carly’s Café – Experience Autism Through Carly’s Eyes – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmDGvquzn2k Here is another 'touching' proof that the mind is not the brain. Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies – Dr. Ben Carson – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zBrY77mBNg Dr. Gary Mathern - What Can You Do With Half A Brain? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrKijBx_hAw In other words, if the mind of a person were merely the brain, as materialists hold, then if half of a brain were removed then a ‘person’ should only be ‘half the person’, or at least somewhat less of a ‘person’, as they were before, but that is not the case. The ‘whole person’ stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment during a hemispherectomy: Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics’ Lives: Excerpt: “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: “Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications.” http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One – May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. “One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely,” Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: “You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost,” Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole The preceding evidence from hemispherectomies is a rather dramatic, and convincing, confirmation for the ‘argument from divisibility’ for the soul: Case for the Existence of the Soul – (Argument from Divisibility at 38:20 minute mark) – JP Moreland – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWjkbNkMiMo&feature=player_detailpage#t=2299bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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Mind-Body Dualism - Is the Mind Purely a Function of the Brain? by Michael Egnor Conclusion: Strict materialism predicts that mental function will always correlate with brain function, because mental function is the same thing as brain function. Dualism predicts that mental function and brain function won’t always correlate, because mental function isn’t the same thing as brain function. The Cambridge findings are more consistent with the dualist prediction than with the strict materialist prediction. http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/mind-body_dualism.html Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds – podcast and summary (Law of Identity: 6 properties of mind that are not identical to properties of the brain, thus the mind is not the brain) http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/ The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html Alvin Plantinga has a humorous way of getting this ‘Law of Identity’ point across: Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument (for the existence of the mind/soul) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0 “It (my body) looked like pretty much what it was. As in void of life.” Pam Reynolds - Extremely Monitored Near Death Experience – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k Another simple way of proving the mind is not the brain is by utilizing Godel’s incompleteness theorem. Alan Turing, who invented computers, infamously thought that his brain was merely a ‘Turing Machine’. This following poem teases the ‘merely a machine’ notion of Turing Alan’s brain tells his mind, “Don’t you blow it.” Listen up! (Even though it’s inchoate.) “My claim’s neat and clean. I’m a Turing Machine!” … ‘Tis somewhat curious how he could know it. Yet, in spite of Turing’s irrational belief that he was merely a machine, and although I don’t believe Turing ever actually admitted it, Alan Turing actually succeeded in extending Godel’s incompleteness theorem to material computers, and in doing so, thus undermining his own materialistic belief that he was merely a machine in the process. This point is illustrated in the following video and quote: Alan Turing & Kurt Godel – Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition – video (with Gregory Chaitin) https://vimeo.com/92387854 Quote from video: Turing recast incompleteness in terms of computers and showed that since they are logic machines, there would always be some problems they would never solve. A machine fed one of these problems would never stop (halting problem). And worse, Turing proved there was no way of telling beforehand which these problems were.” The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: “an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms.”,,, http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf “Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine” ~ Kurt Godel The mathematical world - James Franklin - 7 April 2014 Excerpt: “the intellect (is) immaterial and immortal. If today’s naturalists do not wish to agree with that, there is a challenge for them. ‘Don’t tell me, show me’: build an artificial intelligence system that imitates genuine mathematical insight. There seem to be no promising plans on the drawing board.”,,, James Franklin is professor of mathematics at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. http://aeon.co/magazine/world-views/what-is-left-for-mathematics-to-be-about/ Gödel’s philosophical challenge (to Turing) – Wilfried Sieg – lecture video (“The human mind infinitely surpasses any finite machine.”) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je9ksvZ9Av4bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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Evidence that the Mind is not the Brain: The brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. That is not all the brains on Earth, nor all human brains, but merely a single brain of a single human. With over 100 billion nerve cells, or neurons, and a quadrillion synapses, or connections, it is, as one researcher described, “truly awesome.” Researchers have found that the brain’s complexity is beyond anything they’d imagined, or as one evolutionist admitted, almost to the point of being “beyond belief.” Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html Moreover, Darwinists can’t even explain a single protein of that ‘beyond belief’ complexity,, Stephen Meyer Critiques Richard Dawkins’s “Mount Improbable” Illustration – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rgainpMXa8 Nor is there scant hope of Darwinists ever fully analyzing, in detail, the possible interactions of a single neural synapse: "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html Much less do darwinists/atheists have any clue how how the brain achieved optimization as to the placement of its individual components: Component placement optimization in the brain – 1994 As he comments [106], “To current limits of accuracy … the actual placement appears to be the best of all possible layouts; this constitutes strong evidence of perfect optimization.,, among about 40,000,000 alternative layout orderings, the actual ganglion placement in fact requires the least total connection length. http://www.jneurosci.org/content/14/4/2418.abstract Although descriptions of what is happening in the brain can be quite elaborate, in regards to consciousness, the ‘hard problem’ of consciousness is never honestly addressed in these descriptions of brain activity. David Chalmers is semi-famous for getting the ‘hard problem’ of consciousness across to lay people in a very easy to understand manner: David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo This following neuroscientist agrees that the 'how' of consciousness is never properly addressed by materialists: Consciousness: What are some concise ways to convince people that consciousness is not an emergent property? Excerpt: First off, “emergent property” is one of those hand-wavey terms people like to throw around without much substance behind it. A basic definition is something like complex properties that results from the interaction of simple behaviors. That doesn’t actually answer the how of consciousness particularly well by itself.,,, How do you explain the subjective experience of “redness”, let’s say. Saying simply that it’s the correlate of the neurophysiological response to certain rods and cones sensitive to certain light waves does not answer the question of why there is a gestalt qualitative experience of red. - Marc Ettlinger, Research Neuroscientist, Department of Veterans Affairs http://www.quora.com/Consciousness/What-are-some-concise-ways-to-convince-people-that-consciousness-is-not-an-emergent-property/answer/Marc-Ettlinger?srid=4tp&share=1 Here are a few more comments, from atheists no less, that agree with Chalmers on the insolubility of ‘hard problem’ of consciousness,, Darwinian Psychologist David Barash Admits the Seeming Insolubility of Science’s “Hardest Problem” Excerpt: ‘But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can’t even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don’t even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.’ David Barash – Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist - per UD News “We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor Mind and Cosmos – Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False – Thomas Nagel Excerpt: If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology. Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history. http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199919758.do Here a Harvard neurosurgeon, who is now a former atheist who had a life changing Near Death Experience, comments on the ‘hard' problem: The Science of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander – Nov. 18, 2012 Can consciousness exist when the body fails? One neurosurgeon says he has seen it firsthand—and takes on critics who vehemently disagree. Excerpt: Many scientists who study consciousness would agree with me that, in fact, the hard problem of consciousness is probably the one question facing modern science that is arguably forever beyond our knowing, at least in terms of a physicalist model of how the brain might create consciousness. In fact, they would agree that the problem is so profound that we don’t even know how to phrase a scientific question addressing it. But if we must decide which produces which, modern physics is pushing us in precisely the opposite direction, suggesting that it is consciousness that is primary and matter secondary. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/11/18/the-science-of-heaven.html Although atheists have the impossible task of trying to ‘explain away’ the hard problem of consciousness, the Theist has a much easier task at hand. The Theist merely has to show that the mind is not the same thing as the brain. Here are a few simple ways to prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain. One simple way of demonstrating that the mind is not the same thing as the brain comes from utilizing the ‘Law Of Identity’ to separate properties of mind from properties of the brain: Immaterial Mind - video (Law Of Identity) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720zEnzgTyMbornagain77
November 22, 2014
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Me_Think, information/memory, though it may be represented in material form, is not reducible to material form, and thus can never be truly 'stored' in material form. To think information, and or consciousness is emergent from material is 'not even wrong'. keith s, your split brain article, like your ONH claim, has already been amply refuted. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-on-emergent-poofery/#comment-530512 That you refuse to accept that empirical refutation to you claim matters not one iota to me. Moreover, you have refused to address any of the the points that directly counter your materialistic position: such as,, The Case for the Soul – InspiringPhilosophy – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Mind is able to modify the brain. Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism does not explain mind. Thus, keith s until you are willing to honestly address issues, both those that refute your position and those that seemed to support your position, why do expect anyone to take you seriously. ,,, You are the worse kind of investigator. One who refuses to let his claims be subject to countervailing evidence that refutes his position.bornagain77
November 22, 2014
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bornagain77 @ 74, Unitary consciousness depends on the signals received by brain as a result of agitation of sensory nerves of various sensory receptor. Whether the information gets stored as an integrated information which, in turn, is decomposable or not is debatable. Even those papers which think the signals are not decomposable state:
While we intuitively assume that consciousness must be a fundamental property as defined from a God’s eye perspective,the attribution of this property always takes place in a social context. When people attribute consciousness to a system they are acknowledging a subjective inability to break it down into a set of independent components, forcing them to treat its actions as the behavior of a unified, integrated whole. The irreversibility here is observer-centric, as opposed to absolute. - Phil Maguire - Philippe Moser
The reason there is little progress in consciousness study is obvious - no healthy person will allow neurologists to experiment with his brain, and this isn't going to change, so research progress will be slow.Me_Think
November 22, 2014
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ppolish,
But c’mon, concluding one can turn consciousness off and back on by an electrode to a single spot based on a “blank look on her face”? This is Science?
It wasn't just based on the "blank look":
Led by Mohamad Z. Koubeissi, an associate professor in the department of neurology at George Washington University, the clinical team made a remarkable observation: electrically stimulating a single site with a fairly large current abruptly impaired consciousness in 10 out of 10 trials—the patient stared blankly ahead, became unresponsive to commands and stopped reading. As soon as the stimulation stopped, consciousness returned, without the patient recalling any events during the period when she was out. Note that she did not become unconscious in the usual sense, because she could still continue to carry out simple behaviors for a few seconds if these were initiated before the stimulation started—behaviors such as making repetitive tongue or hand movements or repeating a word. Koubeissi was careful to monitor electrical activity throughout her brain to confirm that episodes of loss of consciousness did not accompany a seizure.
Amusingly, BA77 left the bolded parts out of his quote mine of the passage.keith s
November 22, 2014
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Here is a UD thread in which ID supporters respond to my split-brain OP. Special bonus: seeing what happens when BA77 is challenged to make an argument in his own words.keith s
November 22, 2014
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Me_Think, if your conscious experience of 'me' is simply 'a manifestation of physical brain', exactly who is this 'me' suppose to be in your handle 'Me'_Think? Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0bornagain77
November 21, 2014
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confusing sensory inputs to consciousness does not negate the primacy of consciousness in reality: "We regard promissory materialism as superstition without a rational foundation. The more we discover about the brain, the more clearly do we distinguish between the brain events and the mental phenomena, and the more wonderful do both the brain events and the mental phenomena become. Promissory materialism is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists... who often confuse their religion with their science." - John C. Eccles, The Wonder of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, 1984 - Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1963 http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2568511 Materialism of the Gaps - Michael Egnor (Neurosurgeon) - January 29, 2009 Excerpt: The evidence that some aspects of the mind are immaterial is overwhelming. It's notable that many of the leading neuroscientists -- Sherrington, Penfield, Eccles, Libet -- were dualists. Dualism of some sort is the most reasonable scientific framework to apply to the mind-brain problem, because, unlike dogmatic materialism, it just follows the evidence. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/01/materialism_of_the_gaps015901.html Do Conscious Thoughts Cause Behavior? -Roy F. Baumeister, E. J. Masicampo, and Kathleen D. Vohs - 2010 Excerpt: The evidence for conscious causation of behavior is profound, extensive, adaptive, multifaceted, and empirically strong. http://carlsonschool.umn.edu/assets/165663.pdf "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 Nonlocal Consciousness: An Explanatory Model for the Near-Death Experience - Pim van Lommel, M.D. - video http://www.btci.org/bioethics/2012/videos2012/vid1.html A Short History Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit Also see the measurement problem: The Measurement Problem in quantum mechanics – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB7d5V71vUE How observation (consciousness) is inextricably bound to measurement in quantum mechanics: Quote: "We wish to measure a temperature.,,, But in any case, no matter how far we calculate -- to the mercury vessel, to the scale of the thermometer, to the retina, or into the brain, at some time we must say: and this is perceived by the observer. That is, we must always divide the world into two parts, the one being the observed system, the other the observer.” John von Neumann - 1903-1957 - The Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics, pp.418-21 - 1955 http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/neumann/ On The Comparison Of Quantum and Relativity Theories - Sachs - 1986 Excerpt: quantum theory entails and irreducible subjective element in its conceptual basis. In contrast, the theory of relativity when fully exploited, is based on a totally objective view. http://books.google.com/books?id=8qaYGFuXvMkC&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false As Wigner stated: "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays "Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays"; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963.bornagain77
November 21, 2014
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But c'mon, concluding one can turn consciousness off and back on by an electrode to a single spot based on a "blank look on her face"? This is Science? What is driving this kind of Science fcol. Maybe they touched the Hypnotize Spot. Or the Deep Sleep Spot (very close the the Hypnotize Spot btw). Or the That Idea Is so Dumb my Jaw Dropped and My Face Looked Blank Spot. And MeThink, it's going to a lot more than ample evidence of altered states of consciousness to prove materialism.ppolish
November 21, 2014
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he is has written .. My brain got rewired temporarily (No, I hear you - not permanently :-)Me_Think
November 21, 2014
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Just read wondering wonderful books on... ..and please don't start abusing Oliver Sacks just because he is has written real life experiences.Me_Think
November 21, 2014
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If a Man can Mistake His Wife For A Hat and Voices Can Be Seen because of rewiring of brain, it simply means consciousness is a manifestation of physical brain. Just read wondering books on neurology by Dr. Oliver Sacks.Me_Think
November 21, 2014
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Self-awareness in humans is more complex, diffuse than previously thought - August 22, 2012 Excerpt: Self-awareness is defined as being aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors. Neuroscientists have believed that three brain regions are critical for self-awareness: the insular cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex, and the medial prefrontal cortex. However, a research team led by the University of Iowa has challenged this theory by showing that self-awareness is more a product of a diffuse patchwork of pathways in the brain – including other regions – rather than confined to specific areas. The conclusions came from a rare opportunity to study a person with extensive brain damage to the three regions believed critical for self-awareness. The person, a 57-year-old, college-educated man known as "Patient R," passed all standard tests of self-awareness. He also displayed repeated self-recognition, both when looking in the mirror and when identifying himself in unaltered photographs taken during all periods of his life. "What this research clearly shows is that self-awareness corresponds to a brain process that cannot be localized to a single region of the brain,",,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-08-self-awareness-humans-complex-diffuse-previously.html A.I. Has Grown Up and Left Home - Dec. 19, 2013 Excerpt: some patients with their Broca’s area destroyed can still understand language, due to the immense neuroplasticity of the brain. And language, in turn, is just a part of what we call “thinking.” If we can’t even pin down where the brain processes language, we are a far way from locating that mysterious entity, “consciousness.” That may be because it doesn’t exist in a spot you can point at. http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/ai-has-grown-up-and-left-home also reminds me of this article by Dr. Egnor: Fallacies of Contemporary Neuroscience: "A Vast Collection of Answers, with No Memory of the Questions" - Michael Egnor - February 20, 2014 Excerpt: [Scruton:] Neuroenvy... consist[s] of a vast collection of answers, with no memory of the questions. And the answers are encased in neurononsense of the following kind: 'The brains of social animals are wired to feel pleasure in the exercise of social dispositions such as grooming and co-operation, and to feel pain when shunned, scolded, or excluded. Neurochemicals such as vasopressin and oxytocin mediate pair-bonding, parent-offspring bonding, and probably also bonding to kith and kin...' (Patricia Churchland). As though we didn't know already that people feel pleasure in grooming and co-operating, and as though it adds anything to say that their brains are 'wired' to this effect, or that 'neurochemicals' might possibly be involved in producing it. This is pseudoscience of the first order, and owes what scant plausibility it possesses to the fact that it simply repeats the matter that it fails to explain. It perfectly illustrates the prevailing academic disorder, which is the loss of questions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/02/fallacies_of_co082351.htmlbornagain77
November 21, 2014
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color me very unimpressed with their "Generates Consciousness' claim: "One investigation focused on the role of the claustrum in integrating visual and auditory stimuli.",,, Note that she did not become unconscious in the usual sense, because she could still continue to carry out simple behaviors for a few seconds if these were initiated before the stimulation started—behaviors such as making repetitive tongue or hand movements or repeating a word. Koubeissi was careful to monitor electrical activity throughout her brain to confirm that episodes of loss of consciousness did not accompany a seizure.bornagain77
November 21, 2014
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Doctor turns a patient's consciousness off and then back on. 10 times out of 10. "Hey, she had a blank look on her face". http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/neuronal-superhub-might-generate-consciousness/?WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20141121ppolish
November 21, 2014
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It is not proper to say you can "destroy consciousness with materialist means", since consciousness is a non-material entity. Can you destroy the number seven simply because you erase it off a chalk board? Certainly not! You can only say that you have prevented the chalkboard from expressing the number seven at that time. The same with consciousness. Dr. Pim Von Lommel puts the situation with consciousness like this: A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm The Mystery of Perception During Near Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avyUsPgIuQ0 Dr Pim Van Lommel's scientific studies on near-death experiences and consciousness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8scc2YbXUkbornagain77
November 21, 2014
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