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Elizabeth Liddle Agrees: Saying “It’s Emergent!” is no Better than Saying “It’s Magic!”

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For some years now I have argued that when it comes to explaining the existence of consciousness (subjective self-awareness), materialists have nothing interesting to say, that their so-called explanation amounts to nothing more than “poof! It happened.” See here, here and here. I was gratified to learn in a recent exchange that Elizabeth Liddle agrees with me at least at a certain level. In various places in that exchange she wrote:

Certainly an emergent property must be explained in terms of the system; and clearly an explanation must be “systematic” in the sense of specifying a cascade of mechanisms. . . .

“[Emergent” is] simply a word to denote the idea that when a whole has properties of a whole that are not possessed by the parts, those properties “emerge” from interactions between the parts (and of course between the whole and its environment). It is not itself an explanation – to be an explanation you would have to provide a putative mechanism by which those properties were generated. . . .

So the claim that consciousness is an emergent property of the materials of our bodies is not an explanation – it’s a conjecture. “[I]t’s emergent” would be [on an intellectual par with saying “It’s magic!”]. To support an emergent hypothesis you would have to provide a description of the putative processes by which the property emerges. So I agree with that.

In this respect Liddle apparently agrees with Thomas Nagel: “Merely to identify a cause [of consciousness] is not to provide a significant explanation, without some understanding of why the cause produces the effect.” Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False

For Nagel, to qualify as a genuine explanation, an emergent account would make the connection between mental events such as subjective self-awareness and the electro-chemical state of the nervous system “cease to seem like a gigantic set of inexplicable correlations and would instead make it begin to seem intelligible.” Nagel concedes, however, that at this point a systematic theory of consciousness is “a complete fantasy.”

I agree with Nagel. Science has not come remotely close to explaining how a physical event (the electro-chemical processes in the brain) can result in mental events (e.g., qualia; subjective self-awareness; intentionality; subject-object duality, etc.).

Liddle disagrees. She says that scientists have in fact identified how physical events result in mental events and she repeatedly directed us specifically to the work of Edelman and Tononi in A Universe Of Consciousness: How Matter Becomes Imagination. She gives a faint sketch of Edelman/Tononi’s argument:

But I think the essence of the answer lies in our capacity to simulate the outputs of our actions before we execute them and feedback those outputs as inputs into the action-selecting process. That allows us to both anticipate and remember in what Edelman calls a “remembered present”, in which past and possible futures are integrated.

At Liddle’s behest, I have read A Universe Of Consciousness. The authors summarize their key conclusion as follows:

Memory is a central component of the brain mechanisms that lead to consciousness. . . . the key conclusion is that whatever its form, memory itself is a system property. It cannot be equated exclusively with circuitry, with synaptic changes, with biochemistry, with value constraints, or with behavioral dynamics. Instead, it is the dynamic result of the interactions of all these factors acting together, serving to select an output that repeats a performance or an act.

As anyone with any experience in this area would have suspected, Edelman and Tononi identify consciousness as an emergent property. But, according to Liddle, they have gone a step further and identified at least some of the details of how consciousness arose from chemicals. Could this really be the case? Thomas Nagel has been among the most famous and influential philosophers of mind since the early 70’s. He says that a systematic theory of consciousness is “a complete fantasy.” Does Elizabeth Liddle know something that Nagel doesn’t?

You will probably not be surprised to learn that the answer to that question is “no.” But don’t take my word for it. In his review of A Universe Of Consciousness for Nature, Raymond J. Dolan wrote: “Explaining consciousness has become the Holy Grail of modern neuroscience. Any reckoning on who has found the true path is surely premature.”

In his review for The Guardian Steven Poole wrote:

Few people these days seriously doubt that consciousness arises solely from physical activity inside our skulls. But the big question is how this happens. Why does matter arranged in this way, and not others, give rise to minds? This is a question that Gerard Edelman and Giulio Tononi signally fail to answer, despite the grand promise of their subtitle.

Where has Liddle gone wrong? I can give no better answer than UD commenter Box, who wrote in that same exchange:

The book doesn’t help you at all, it’s a classic example of the good old cum hoc ergo propter hoc – ‘correlation is causation fallacy’. Evidence is provided suggestive of consciousness being *associated* with interconnected regions of the brain. And from this, Edelman and Tononi conclude that consciousness *arises* from the brain. IOW no mechanism that describes how to get from chemicals to consciousness, but a questionable cause logical fallacy instead.

In other words, Edelman and Tononi have asserted as an explanation exactly what Nagel said does not count as a genuine explanation – a gigantic set of inexplicable correlations.

The issue here is really very very simple. And for that reason I am always amazed when highly educated and articulate people like Liddle utterly fail to grasp it. I will try one more time to lay it out step by step.

1. Merely identifying a putative cause is not an explanation.

2. To count as an explanation, one must also give some understanding of why the putative cause produces the effect.

3. Asserting that physical brain state “A” exists (whatever “A” happens to be) and consciousness exists merely identifies a correlation.

4. For physical brain state A to count as an explanation of consciousness, one must also provide an understanding of why that physical event gave rise to that mental event.

5. This has never been done; no one has come close to doing it. There is good reason to believe it is not, in principle, possible to do it.

Comments
groovamos:
These materialists, if they were really just material, lose it instead of their brains behaving as good material brains should. And they don’t know why and neither does eigenstate. You material guys, so-designated, have no clue as to why these masters of materialism blow it so bad and become neophytes in certain situations. And you will never understand it from your worldview.
Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker were not materialists and yet they also had little control, despite their worldview.Carpathian
May 4, 2015
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eigenstate: You are equivocating, here, Barry. Remember you priority on plain, everyday, common definitions? Thank you for providing the trapdoor for what Barry is saying Webster: 2b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment I worked for more than two years at the UT Austin electronics design shop, and of course almost everyone around that department were materialists (except for one elderly faculty near retirement). I have seen the following scenario more than once: a self-assured guy with multiple degrees, turned to stuttering mush by a beautiful, poised young student. I as a 30-year-old graduate student in engineering took a 20-year-old, athletic, buxom lady to a party, and one of these guys made an absolute fool of himself, staring at her bust and repeatedly commenting on it. I and my date were so pissed that I confronted the guy the following Monday in private. This was one of those people who had been conditioned in the echo chamber of materialism. These young women with not nearly the experience, education or "the authority" of these materialists find themselves stunned at such lack of self assuredness and face it, self control. These materialists, if they were really just material, become spellbound and lose it instead of their brains behaving as good material brains should. And they don't know why and neither does eigenstate. You material guys, so-designated, have no clue as to why these masters of materialism blow it so bad and become neophytes in certain situations. And you will never understand it from your worldview. Enchantment is just to hard for some people to experience when in the grip of a false understanding of self (materialism). Materialism is in most cases an unconscious choice brought on by personality issues, when the echo chamber opens its door.groovamos
May 4, 2015
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I should say, in reference to NetResearchGuy's post, that of course a corollary to the view that consciousness is an emergent property (or, as I would prefer, capacity) of material configurations) that, in theory at least, a human-made robot could be conscious. I'll just make three points about that: Firstly, I say "robot" advisedly, because it is my view that the origin of consciousness lies in the capacity to interact with, and navigate the world. I think it is no coincidence that organisms we attribute consciousness to tend to be able to move, namely animals, while we don't atttribute consciousness so readily to plants. Except, interestingly, perhaps, Venus Fly Traps. They are seriously spooky. So if there is a candidate for AI, I think it will be in the field of robotics, specifically, because if the thing can move it can control its own input, as we do (e.g. when something catches our attention, we move our eyes, or reach out to touch it, thus bringing relevant sensory input online). Secondly, I think it is highly unlikely that we will ever actually do it unless of course we find a way of getting it to evolve i.e. by using a GA. That is because I think designing a neural system capable of anything we'd want to call human-like consciousness (as opposed to some dim eternal-present awareness) would need to be firstly, vastly complex, and secondly, "Darwinian" in its actual operation. There is a term "Neural Darwinism" to describe how brain networks are formed by a dynamic process that relies on the essentially Darwinian principle of Donald Hebb's "what fires together wires together" (and what doesn't tend to unwire), in which the connectivity is constantly changing. And I think the best way of designing a Hebbian system would be to get it to evolve. Thirdly, on the other hand, we can already model a great deal of human cognition, in silico, and design software that will do just what NetResearchGuy says - recognise faces and respond to them, interpret verbal instructions, learn, decide, solve problems, navigate dynamic environments, seek relevant information, decipher facial expressions, etc. And a lot of this is already proving useful, practically, as well as informing us about the kinds of mechanisms that are likely to subserve these cognitions in human brains (the information exchange goes both ways there, of course - vision science has contributed to image transmission software and reverse). It doesn't make any of these machines consciousness, because, as Tononi and Edelman lay out, it's the coordination and re-entrant looping at many different scales that they, and I, think is crucial. But we have some pretty clever cognitive modules - right there in our phones already!Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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But you forgot Popperian’s favorite rejoinder: “Saying that God likes floating rocks is no kind of explanation! Never mind that no one has proposed that as an explanation.”
If God doesn't play a hard to vary, functional role, then how is that not an equivalent statement? You're left with God wanting it that way, which doesn't actually add to the explanation. Rather, God plays the role of a justifier and authoritative source of knowledge. But that's a specific philosophical view about knowledge. Theism is a specific case of justificationism. As such, your argument is narrow in scope. it does not appeal to me because what I want from ideas are their content, not their providence.Popperian
May 4, 2015
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@Arrington #20
In response to the scientism on display at Liddle’s comment at 17, I commend to our readers clinical neuroscientist Raymond Tallis’ What Neuroscience Cannot Tell Us About Ourselves (see here). I will excerpt only a couple of snippets below, but I highly recommend the entire article for those seeking an antidote to the neuroscientism snake oil Liddle is peddling.
[Neuroscience] reveals some of the most important conditions that are necessary for behavior and awareness. What neuroscience does not do, however, is provide a satisfactory account of the conditions that are sufficient for behavior and awareness.
The pervasive yet mistaken idea that neuroscience does fully account for awareness and behavior is neuroscientism, an exercise in science-based faith.
This is lazy reading of Tallis' words here at best, and deceptive if it's not simply lazy. Tallis does not find "satisfactory" accounts of neurophysiological basis for consciousness. The putative implication here from you via Tallis is that the science is "unsatsifactory". Notwithstanding that science is never fully settled or finished for any theory, and is thus "permanently unsatisfactory" in the sense that it bears continual refinement and improvement, what Tallis complains about has nothing to do with the scientific depth or content. Later in the article he says:
The failure to distinguish consciousness from neural activity corrodes our self-understanding in two significant ways. If we are just our brains, and our brains are just evolved organs designed to optimize our odds of survival — or, more precisely, to maximize the replicative potential of the genetic material for which we are the vehicle — then we are merely beasts like any other, equally beholden as apes and centipedes to biological drives. Similarly, if we are just our brains, and our brains are just material objects, then we, and our lives, are merely way stations in the great causal net that is the universe, stretching from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch.
His dissatisfaction is not with the merits of the science, as you imply here, wittingly or otherwise, but obtains in his dissatisfaction with the consequences of the scientific implications. That is to say, he is committing the argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy, here. Just to make sure we know he's making this error, in the next sentence he says:
Most of those who subscribe to such “neuroevolutionary” accounts of humanity don’t recognize these consequences.
Whoops. So much for your critique from Tallis on the merits of the science. So what it you or Tallis have issues with the implications? Not liking the consequences doesn't make the science false or less credible in any way. Anyway, for readers who suppose there is a "scientifically unsatisfactory" problem from Tallis here would be mistaken. Read the whole article, and it's your garden-variety crop of complaints that the science we do have and are working jsut can't succeed, because superstitions and intuitions about the dualist self mean it just can't. The science is irrelevant in this view -- it's impossible in principle to Tallis to cite just one of the many glaring appeals to superstition in the article:
But nerve impulses do not have any appearance in themselves; they require a conscious subject observing them to appear — and it is irrelevant that the observation is highly mediated through instrumentation. Like all material items, nerve impulses lack appearances absent an observer.
Liddle: “So yes, we do see decisions” This statement is absurd. We do not “see” decisions. We see material events; not mental ones.
This begs the question, Barry. On the scientific view, mental events *are* material events. A decision is a completely physical process. If you think there's more, why? I understand your intuitions suggest there's more and you've got a reflex that responds to ideas that run counter to your intuitions as patently "absurd", but scientifically, what's the problem? Your (or Tallis') dissatisfaction adds nothing to any model or explanation for the phenomena, nor does it challenge the existing models at all. "That's absurd" is not a scientific objection. If science could only proceed with the countenance of your intuitions, we'd be back in the Dark Ages still.
There we are again. Liddle is pushing materialist magic.
You are equivocating, here, Barry. Remember you priority on plain, everyday, common definitions? Webster:
a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations 2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment 3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
You can deride a materialist explanation all you like, but right or wrong, one thing we can surely say it is not, is "magic". It's "anti-magic" -- it is impersonal, no sorcerer, no conjuring or conjurer, nothing supernatural. Correct or no, these models are mundane, mechanical, the antithesis of magic. Words mean what we agree they should mean, but you're using an epithet here that doesn't apply to scientific models. Consider turning water into wine, though, say at a wedding. *That* would be "magic" per common usage.eigenstate
May 4, 2015
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Barry
You have not been paying attention. It emerged is not an explanation at any level of generality unless the proponent explains how, in principle, the system from which the property supposedly emerged can cause the property. See here for an extended discussion.
I am paying attention, Barry. Nor do I care who is mistaken about emergence. Anyone who mistakenly suggested emergence is a concrete explanation, including you, isn't even wrong. That's my point. So, it's not the same as saying "It's magic". They are mistaken at a fundamental level. Nor does this prevent others who do understand emergence as a classification of explanation from applying it to any potential explanation of conciseness. Yes, we do not yet know how to program consciousness. However, this does not mean that we cannot apply other theories to the problem and reach conclusions. For example, the law of computation tells us that any material object can be simulated to an arbitrary degree of accuracy due to the universality of computation. This would entail genuine artificial intelligence is possible given the laws of physics. Computation, quantum or otherwise, is an emergent explanation. As such, should we make the philosophical breakthrough necessary to program it, consciousness would be an emergent explanation. None of that entails "Magic" or "immaterialism" anymore than our explanation for how we can build universal computers out of cogs, transistors or qbits, which resolves at a higher, quasi-autonomous level.Popperian
May 4, 2015
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As a software engineer, I like to think about the problem of consciousness in terms of what it would take to make a conscious software program. In principle, any purely physical system can be simulated on a sufficiently powerful computer, so if conscious minds are physical then they are also computable. The argument I have against conscious software is that presumably it resulted from taking a simpler non-conscious software program, and adding some type of code, some sort of machine instruction that switched its status from non conscious to conscious. For example incrementing a variable or storing to a location in memory. The problem is that it's nonsensical to conceive of a single line code modification that would have that sort of power. More usually, materialists instead claim that consciousness isn't binary, but a continuum (EL claimed this in another post). OK, that implies that every piece of software is a little bit conscious. Perhaps the program "hello world" must be a tiny bit conscious, and the Windows OS quite a bit more. Again, nonsensical -- clearly both of those programs are exactly zero percent conscious, and every software program besides those, as well as the entire collection of software created by the human race as a unit is zero percent conscious. If you believe any of them have fractional consciousness, explain why, and what percentage you would assign. EL seems to be arguing that anything that can sense input, identify patterns in the input, and respond to it in a feedback loop is conscious. I could make a software program attached to a camera that would identify faces, and whether they were attractive or not (based on known rules of proportion and symmetry), and connect to a monitor that would produce a frown or smile. EL would claim that program is a little bit conscious, while I would disagree. According to EL, our brain is just that software program with a LOT more patterns and feedback loops, but ultimately just reducible to those patterns and feedback loops. My argument is that no matter how many similar patterns and feedback loops you add to the software program, it's not conscious. The problem is there is no whole or self to gather all the feedback loops into a single conscious unit. The feedback loop theory is merely a regress and makes zero progress on identifying where the whole or self comes from. As a manager, I've interviewed a ton of programmers, and when you ask someone a hard question, some of them make progress toward a solution, and others engage in "hand waving". Hand waving I define as pretending to solve a problem by explaining how you would handle all the easy aspects of solving the problem, while being completely unaware of the hard aspects of the problem. That's what I'm seeing in that book on consciousness, EL's reasoning, and the field of evolution in general: easy aspects of the problem are tackled in ever increasing detail, while hard aspects are completely ignored. When I was younger, I was a publicly declared atheist, and thought people were meat computers, and strong AI was possible. So I'm coming from the perspective of someone whose mind was changed, and changed first due to reason, and only later by revelation.NetResearchGuy
May 4, 2015
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If rationality and consciousness are emergent properties of brain states, then brain states are causally primary—are in the driver's seat. If we put blind material forces in the driver's seat of e.g. reason—as emergentism does—then things don't make much sense, as Reppert points out.
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
For another thing, if 'blind', 'bereft of overview', 'uninterested in truth and logic', particles produce our "rationality" we don't have any reason to trust our reason. IOW emergentism doesn't make materialism any less irrational.Box
May 4, 2015
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drc466 @ 41. Classic. But you forgot Popperian's favorite rejoinder: "Saying that God likes floating rocks is no kind of explanation! Never mind that no one has proposed that as an explanation."Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Popperian @ 39. You have not been paying attention. "It emerged" is not an explanation at any level of generality unless the proponent explains how, in principle, the system from which the property supposedly emerged can cause the property. If the proponent cannot provide such a justification (and in the case of neuroscientism, no proponent has), the explanation is exactly on the same level as saying "It's magic." Here is an extended discussion of this that was linked in the OP and which you apparently failed to read: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-on-emergent-poofery/
We have a number of hypotheses about specific aspects consciousness.
None of which even remotely comes close to explaining how the physical produces the mental. And why do you insist on tilting at an explanation that is not under consideration? Your smug dismissal of an alternate explanation that no one is proposing only makes you look stupid. Stop it.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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To steal the analogy, here's my summary of the convo thus far: Consciousness in the brain is like a pile of rocks...hanging in mid-air. To simply state that "hanging in mid-air is an emergent property of this particular pile of rocks" is equal to saying "it's magic". Liddle's response appears to be: Look, we can measure how the rocks move within the floating pile as it makes decisions about where to go. It appears to use "re-entry" to determine its next position in the air, so the existing property of "floating re-entry" may be the key to how it began floating in the first place. Popperian's response: "Emergence" is just a way of categorizing floating rocks as an unusual phenomenon. We can model in a computer where the rocks sit within the floating pile, so the fact that we can't explain why it is floating is not important. Just accept it! Box/BA's response: Umm, guys - it's floating. FLOATING! Doesn't that concern you at all? [Edit] (Sorry, didn't mean to leave RB out. RB's response: there are floating piles of rocks (humans), non-floating piles of rocks (mice), and just plain rocks. we can measure a lot of statistics on the individual rocks of floating and non-floating piles, and find that they are different. So those differences must explain the floating thing. Somehow. And saying that "the floating doesn't have a materialistic explanation" doesn't explain the floating, so emergence automatically wins).drc466
May 4, 2015
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Steven Poole: Few people these days seriously doubt that consciousness arises solely from physical activity inside our skulls.
Box: The insanity of our days on display. Hee hee I love it when we expose these guys. I would just build upon the previous to say (groov): The insane arrogance of the self-appointed elite is plainly on display. And I write this based on what Poole is actually saying, interpreted with a little help from bracketed:
Steven Poole: Few people [worth paying attention to] these days seriously doubt that consciousness arises solely from physical activity inside our skulls.
-the obvious falsehood otherwise no secret. Man, I have such fun watching you guys shred the opposition.groovamos
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
For those interested in an extended account of why Liddle’s comment at 22 and Popperian’s comment at 26 do not come even remotely close to explaining consciousness, I again commend Tallis’s article, which I linked to in 20.
Did you have a response to my actual comment, Barry? You know, the one I actually wrote? For your convenience...
it seems that objections to emergence confuse a type of explanation with a specific emergent explanation itself. Merely saying “It’s emergent” isn’t an explanation, it’s a classification. [...] As such, It’s unclear why, even if we lack an emergent explanation for how conciseness emerges, this prevents us from staying that any such expiation would itself be at a this higher level and quasi-autonomous.
As such, your argument that emergence is "like magic" isn't even wrong. It represents confusion as to how emergence represents a level of explanation, rather than any specific concrete explanation. We have a number of hypotheses about specific aspects consciousness. However, Qualia is one aspect is particular difficult because we cannot predict, for example, what it will be like to see the color red. But this doesn't mean that saying "God wanted it to be like that" adds to the explanation. That's a form of justificationism, which is bad philosophy. Again, what I want from ideas are their content, not their providence.Popperian
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
Just as a medieval churchman reached wrong conclusions about whether the earth orbited the sun based on his blinkered insistence on an erroneous interpretation of the Bible, your blinkered insistence on neuroscientism has led you to the equally erroneous conclusions that brain activity is not only necessary but also sufficient to explain consciousness.
Except that the temporal order was reversed. I had no "blinkered insistence on neuroscientism" when I drew the conclusion. I was in the middle of an argument in which I was making the opposite point, i.e. the point made by Tallis, Chalmers, and indeed yourself. So your assumption is completely incorrect. And I still have no "blinkered insistence on neuroscientism". I am perfectly open to the possibility that one day someone will persuade me that I was right in the first place. But, obviously, right now, I don't think so.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
Liddle @ 30:
It’s my honest view, and I’m “selling” it to nobody. I’m merely explaining, at your request, why I hold it.
I have never suggested otherwise.
Barry:
...but I highly recommend the entire article for those seeking an antidote to the neuroscientism snake oil Liddle is peddling.
Barry:
There we are again. Liddle is pushing materialist magic
Let me repeat: I am selling/peddling/pushing nothing, snake oil or otherwise. I am explaining to you, in response to your request, why I reached the conclusion I did. It was not because of an "a priori" monism - I was a dualist at the time I found myself persuaded by the opposite argument. In fact, it was rather a shock. My world rocked for a bit.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Raymond Tallis: [Neuroscience] reveals some of the most important conditions that are necessary for behavior and awareness.
Necessary for behavior may make sense if by behavior is meant "bodily behavior". About the questionable hypothesis that the brain is necessary for awareness ... well that is the topic under debate. For one thing it's squarely contradicted by NDE experiences.Box
May 4, 2015
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Box: When studying the brain directly—when a skull is opened and we look inside—, what do we see? Decisions or “chemical stuff”? Post mortem studies aren't on living brains. What we can do on living brains sometimes involves opening the skull, but only to implant electrodes, and those will only tell us anything if we are also looking at what the person is doing - deciding. Most neuroimaging is in vivo - we don't look at the brain, but what it's doing, and we don't only look at what the brain is doing, we look at what the person is doing. That's what functional neuroimaging is all about.
Lizzie: I meant, of course, the decisions that people make. Some are indeed invisible (poker players are good at keeping them that way), but most are manifest in action. Mind readers aside, no one can see the decisions other ppl make. We can see the material consequences of a decision made by someone else. But in principle you can only see your own consciousness, own thoughts, own feelings, own decisions and so forth.
Sure, but the output of those decisions is, in many cases, rapidly detectable, and that's how the science is done. Like most forms of scientific investigation, we don't observe the phenomenon directly - we make proxy measures, and those include behavioural outputs (eye movements, button-presses, etc), physiological outputs (measure of arousal, for instance, like skin conductivity, heart rate, and pupil diameter), and self-reports.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Liddle @ 30:
It’s my honest view, and I’m “selling” it to nobody. I’m merely explaining, at your request, why I hold it.
I have never suggested otherwise. I really do believe that you believe someone somewhere has provided an explanation for how physical things cause mental things. The point of this exercise is not to question your honesty. The point is to show not only that you are wrong, but that your error is obvious to anyone not wearing materialist blinkers. Just as a medieval churchman reached wrong conclusions about whether the earth orbited the sun based on his blinkered insistence on an erroneous interpretation of the Bible, your blinkered insistence on neuroscientism has led you to the equally erroneous conclusions that brain activity is not only necessary but also sufficient to explain consciousness.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
Unless dualism is true and an immaterial mind exists, in which case it would be the explanation. And why should we rule out dualism a priori?
I certainly did not. Indeed, dualism was my prior, as I hope I have made clear. Not that monism is incompatible with theism, and is at least one reason for believing in the Resurrection of the Body.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Lizzie:
Box: By what reason is it justified to term physical processes in the brain “unexecuted decisions” or a “decision-making process”? When studying the brain we don’t see “decisions”, we see chemical stuff.
Lizzie: Well, no, we don’t see “chemical stuff”, usually, in living brains, (..) So yes, we do see decisions (…)
When studying the brain directly—when a skull is opened and we look inside—, what do we see? Decisions or “chemical stuff”?
Lizzie: I meant, of course, the decisions that people make. Some are indeed invisible (poker players are good at keeping them that way), but most are manifest in action.
Mind readers aside, no one can see the decisions other ppl make. We can see the material consequences of a decision made by someone else. But in principle you can only see your own consciousness, own thoughts, own feelings, own decisions and so forth.Box
May 4, 2015
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EL @ 23
Then trace it.
I am astonished that you do not realize that my entire OP and the comments afterwards has been an exercise in tracing it.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Can I point out, Barry, that I am not "pushing" or "peddling" anything at all, let alone "snake oil". You pressed the subject in another thread, on quite a different topic. I responded. You pressed harder. I responded some more. Now you start an entire thread. So I respond. I am selling nothing. I have frequently stated that I understand how, from a particular philosophical standpoint, the problem is "Hard". Indeed I'd go further - I'd say that if Chalmers is right, it's impossible, not Hard. And I used to agree with him. I then saw it differently, and no longer agree with him. I am asking no-one to agree with me, I am simply attempting, as requested, to explain why I disagree. So your allegations are baseless. And, moreoever, I will point out that far from my "faith in scientism" leading me to "error", I started from a quite different position, and came to a reasoned conclusion. I am not an advocate of "scientism" and it is not a "faith" that I hold. Indeed, until the the day I perceived what I consider Chalmers' error, I was persuaded that our sense of our own consciousness was the best argument in favour of theism. And I may have made a mistake about his error. I don't think so, obviously, because if I thought I was wrong, I would change my mind. But I think he has made a mistake. I think the mistake is quite subtle, and it's not easy to pinpoint. My best simple version is that it treats consciousness as a state, not as a capacity. But no matter. It's my honest view, and I'm "selling" it to nobody. I'm merely explaining, at your request, why I hold it.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Popperian @ 28:
We do not rule it out, Barry. It just doesn’t add to the explanation. As such we see no need to include it.
Reminds me of the guy walking down the street at night. He encounters a man on his hands and knees under a street lamp and the following exchange ensues: Man 1: What are you looking for? Man 2: My keys. Man 1: Where did you lose them? Man 2: About a hundred yards from here. Man 1: Then why why don't you go look for them in the area where you lost them. Man 2: Silly, the light is much better here.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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BA:
Unless dualism is true and an immaterial mind exists, in which case it would be the explanation. And why should we rule out dualism a priori?
We do not rule it out, Barry. It just doesn't add to the explanation. As such we see no need to include it. What I want from explanations is their content, not their providence. Apparently, you want more, but that's your problem, not mine.Popperian
May 4, 2015
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For those interested in an extended account of why Liddle’s comment at 22 and Popperian's comment at 26 do not come even remotely close to explaining consciousness, I again commend Tallis’s article, which I linked to in 20. Here is more:
Physical science is thus about the marginalization, and ultimately the elimination, of phenomenal appearance. But consciousness is centrally about appearances. The basic contents of consciousness are these mere “secondary qualities.” They are what fill our every conscious moment. As science advances, it retreats from appearances towards quantifying items that do not in themselves have the kinds of manifestation that constitute our experiences. A biophysical account of consciousness, which sees consciousness in terms of nerve impulses that are the passage of ions through semi-permeable membranes, must be a contradiction in terms. For such an account must ultimately be a physical account, and physical science does not admit the existence of anything that would show why a physical object such as a brain should find, uncover, create, produce, result in, or cause the emergence of appearances and, in particular, secondary qualities in the world. Galileo’s famous assertions that the book of nature “is written in the language of mathematics” and that “tastes, odors, colors ... reside only in consciousness,” and would be “wiped out and annihilated” in a world devoid of conscious creatures, underline the connection, going back to the very earliest days of modern physical science, between quantification and the disappearance of appearance.
Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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To quote from a comment on another thread...
it seems that objections to emergence confuse a type of explanation with a specific emergent explanation itself. Merely saying "It's emergent" isn't an explanation, it's a classification. For example, to determine how long it will take for water to boil, I do not need to know the initial conditions, the an exact count or the exact path of each water molecule will take, let alone that kind of detail for all of the initial external influences that act outside the tea pot. These details are completely untraceable by current day computers operating till the age of the universe. But, fortunately, in the majority of cases we don't really care about those details. Their complexity resolves into higher-level of simplicity. If I want to make tea, all I need to know is the mass, power output of the heading element, etc., which are easy to measure. The relationships between containers, heating elements and boiling bubbles can be explained in terms of each other, without a direct reference to the atomic level or even lower. The sort of behavior of this entire class of higher-level phenomena is quasi-autonomous, which is nearly self contained. IOW, emergence is the resolution of explainability at this higher, quasi-autonomous level. It's a kind or classification of explanation. As such, It's unclear why, even if we lack an emergent explanation for how conciseness emerges, this prevents us from staying that any such expiation would itself be at a this higher level and quasi-autonomous.
An example of this in the brain is our understanding of synaptic connections between neurons. To create a virtual neocortical column, the Blue Brain project had to distribute neurons in their simulation. This required them to create a higher level principle that was simple enough to allow distribution without mapping exact positions of neurons in a real neocortical column. From this article on the project.
"This is a major breakthrough, because it would otherwise take decades, if not centuries, to map the location of each synapse in the brain and it also makes it so much easier now to build accurate models,” says Henry Markram, head of the BBP."
IOW, the connections between neurons resolves into a simpler, quasi-autonomous, higher level of explanation, which makes the simulation much easier to create and model. This is an example of an emergent explanation, which is a class of explanation, not a concrete explanation itself. Nothing about it is "magic". From the article....
Virtual Reconstruction To solve the mystery, a research team from the Blue Brain Project set about virtually reconstructing (simulated on a computer) a cortical microcircuit based on unparalleled data about the geometrical and electrical properties of neurons — data from over nearly 20 years of painstaking experimentation on slices of living brain tissue. Each neuron in the circuit was reconstructed into a 3D model on a powerful Blue Gene supercomputer. About 10,000 virtual neurons were packed into a 3D space in random positions according to the density and ratio of morphological types found in corresponding living tissue. The researchers then compared the model back to an equivalent brain circuit from a real mammalian brain. To their great surprise, they found that the locations on the model matched that of synapses found in the equivalent real-brain circuit with an accuracy ranging from 75 percent to 95 percent. Random connections This means that neurons grow as independently of each other as physically possible and mostly form synapses at the locations where they randomly bump into each other. A few exceptions were also discovered, pointing out special cases where signals are used by neurons to change the statistical connectivity. By taking these exceptions into account, the Blue Brain team can now make a near perfect prediction of the locations of all the synapses formed inside the circuit. The goal of the BBP is to integrate knowledge from all the specialized branches of neuroscience, to derive from it the fundamental principles that govern brain structure and function, and ultimately, to reconstruct the brains of different species — including the human brain — in silico. The current paper provides another proof-of-concept for the approach, by demonstrating for the first time that the distribution of synapses or neuronal connections in the mammalian cortex can, to a large extent, be predicted, EPFL scientists say.
Popperian
May 4, 2015
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Barry
Liddle: “So yes, we do see decisions” This statement is absurd. We do not “see” decisions. We see material events; not mental ones.
I meant, of course, the decisions that people make. Some are indeed invisible (poker players are good at keeping them that way), but most are manifest in action.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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RB @ 19 continued
At the same time, postulating dualism, and “an immaterial mind,” offers exactly zero explanation for the presence of these human endowments and their absence in mice.
Unless dualism is true and an immaterial mind exists, in which case it would be the explanation. And why should we rule out dualism a priori? “Because it is not consonant with my metaphysics” you might say. To which I would respond, “And why, exactly, should I put on blinkers just because you find them amenable?
Moreover, it is as helpless before the “hard problem” as any materialistic explanation – and offers no hooks from which to bootstrap scientific investigation into that problem.
Which probably means that the problem is not susceptible to a scientific answer. I am OK with that. Whoever said that only scientific answers are permitted.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2015
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Barry:
Her faith in scientism is very strong, and her error can be traced to her faith.
Then trace it.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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Barry wrote:
Here is a scientific account of Case 1; How rocks came to rest at the bottom of a hill. The rocks came to rest at the bottom of the hill because water acting in accordance with well understood principles of hydro-dynamics carried away the soil supporting the rocks on the side of the hill. When that soil was carried away, the rocks came loose from the side of the hill and rolled to the bottom in accordance with our models of gravity. Contrast that with Case 2; How chemicals cause consciousness There is a neural architecture that allows for the re-entry of the output of unexecuted decisions as input into the decision-making process, by means of a “dynamic core” of brain networks. And there is also consciousness. The first thing causes the second thing by means of “emergence” (synonym: “magic”).
OK, well, let me try one more time (but I'm not going to start with "chemicals" as you have already stipulated that you don't want the story of how the ingredients of food become brain-stuff - I'm going to start with brain architecture): Let's take the example of being conscious that someone has entered the room. First of all, sensory signals arrive at the sense organs - the sounds of the door latch, footsteps, breathing, possibly a polite cough, possibly a slight change in the illumination on your newspaper, or whatever - possibly even a slight change to the infra-red flux on your skin. Those sensory signals arrive at the primary sensory regions of the brain, and are transmitted, through both hard-wired (i.e. configurations governed by genes) and learned circuitry, reproduce, in the brain, the same firing patterns as are regularly associated with the event in question - patterns associated with the proximity of a human being, and possibly with a specific human being, combined with patterns associated with the approach of a human being, at that particular door. This cascade of network firing is re-entrant - each time round the circuit, parts of the circulating pattern are reinforced by responding signals from some parts of the brain, and inhibited by others. So, in the early stages, fear responses may be initiated, but inhibited by responses from parts of the brain that represent associations of those particular footsteps with familiarity. And as this re-entrant process continues, rather like a complex pattern of vortices, each of which can reinforce, or inhibit others, patterns that will send activation to muscles that will execute a response (turning the head, shifting gaze, preparing a greeting) are also part of the swirl. And, in addition to this, just as brain regions activated by association with the presence of the person who just entered, so brain regions associated with the presence of YOU, including your location, mental state, etc, are also brought into the vortex, adjusting the output to the muscles (smile muscles, standing up muscles, get-ready to hug muscles etc). And all the time, this complex cascade of - of neural firing is feeding back the effects of the previous output, in a non-linear process in which information not only as to who has entered the room, but what relation they bear to you, and what your own response is, and whether you are happy with that response, thus actually creating a system in which you, the owner of the brain, are represented, dynamically, in relation to the other person in the room, in a manner that allows the two of you to interact. And thus we have a system in which one entity - you - is conscious not only of the presence of another - the person who just entered, but of your own presence, and the relationship, and banquet of possible actions that could be taken, and events that might transpire, as a result of the person's arrival. And the reason that "re-entry" and the "dynamic core" are crucial (both of which we have good evidence for) is that because that the re-entry allows the system to both non-linear and dynamic, giving rise to the capacity not to "be conscious" but to be conscious OF your own presence, your location, your future possible actions, the other person's presence, their posssible future actions, all constantly updated in the light of both new sensory input and re-turning input from the brain itself. I'm sure it won't persuade you, but, as I say, it persuades me.Elizabeth Liddle
May 4, 2015
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