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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
RDF: Once more into the gap.
But I’ve never had anyone explain to me how we can objectively know which of the different supposedly objective moral codes we are supposed to follow...
But I have explained to you how we could objectively know which moral codes to follow among many other things: Revelation. You (fallible accidental construct that you believe yourself to be) think that you've had a subjective intuition (whatever that means) convincing you that torturing puppies IS wrong to the point that you believe so with a strength that appears very much like that of objective certainty. But I think you should be open to the idea that your subjective intuition about torturing puppies isn't really your thought at all, but is God's thought embedded in your psyche in such a way that it doesn't feel like a preference or an opinion or a human perspective at all, because it isn't. You may rejoinder that there is no real way to know the difference because we are all trapped in subjectivity all the way down. But I answer, yet again, that it is only an a priori insistence that there is no God or that he cannot embed objective truth into our psyche that is keeping you trapped in subjectivity in the first place. I say that the strength with which you know that it is wrong to torture puppies is a small, but important point of evidence (not proof) that objective certainty exists, that revelation exists, and that God exists.Phinehas
July 22, 2014
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Phinehas, Stephenb
When a moral subjectivist says that rape IS wrong, they’ve misspoken and should rightly be corrected. The best that a moral subjectivist can say is that rape SEEMS wrong, or that rape FEELS wrong, or that, IN THEIR ESTIMATION, rape is wrong. Without the qualifiers, they are speaking as though they are moral objectivists.
On the contrary, this is the kind of thing only an objectivist can reasonably say about rape. To say that rape seems wrong is to imply I might be mistaken which implies there some external condition to check my statement against. An objectivist might reasonably say rape seems wrong because e.g. they might have misinterpreted the natural moral law and actually rape was OK. A subjectivist might reasonably say it about something where they were unsure of all the relevant facts (e.g. not giving access to the bodies of MH17) but not of rape. To say something is wrong is not to assert a fact about it but to censure it. Moral language is prescriptive (as the philosopher R.M. Hare explained so clearly in The Language of Morals). Two people can know all  the relevant facts about about something and one assert it is wrong and the other assert it is right.  They are not disagreeing on something that can be observed or calculated. They are using speech to condone or censure – to get people to feel and act in certain ways.  You guys need to read more linguistic philosophy then you would get out of this trap of treating all language as describing when it does so much more. Mark Frank
July 22, 2014
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Stephen: Exactly. That's what I'm getting in a nutshell. "There is no real distinction between 'is' and 'seems' because there really is no 'is' there is only 'seems.' [Never mind that it might only seem there is no 'is.'] So, whenever I say 'is' you should read 'seems' 'cause that's what I mean." "What? Why don't I just use 'seems' instead to avoid all the confusion? Because torturing puppies IS wrong!"Phinehas
July 22, 2014
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Phinehas:
And as others have endlessly corrected you, the term “subjective” isn’t one that you get to redefine however you like. When a moral subjectivist says that rape IS wrong, they’ve misspoken and should rightly be corrected. The best that a moral subjectivist can say is that rape SEEMS wrong, or that rape FEELS wrong, or that, IN THEIR ESTIMATION, rape is wrong. Without the qualifiers, they are speaking as though they are moral objectivists.
Well stated. Of course, as we know, words do not have meanings for our dialogue partners. The idea is to use them to obfuscate and misdirect. So we get nonsense something like the following: "There is no such thing as objective morality, because there is no IS to morality. Even so, "I am a moral subjectivist, and I am telling you that slavery IS wrong, it doesn't just SEEM wrong. That distinction is important because slavery IS really bad stuff. At least, that is my position unless you dare to remind me of the hard distinction that I just made, at which time I will be happy to inform you that there is no real distinction between "is" and "seems" after all because "is" can be subjective. My steak is tasty. Have a nice day." This is what passes for intellectual sophistication in the 21st century.StephenB
July 22, 2014
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Stephen:
This is another attempted rhetorical trick. Indentured servitude is not chattel slavery. It does not involve the practice of treating people like a piece of meat or beating them with rods.
Indeed. Perhaps the closest comparison in modern society would be volunteering to serve in the Armed Forces. Many people serve a certain number of years in order to pay off school debts. In return, the Armed Force takes on the responsibility of feeding and equipping the recruit and basically "owns" them until their service is completed. In the not-so-distant past, this form of indentured servitude wasn't always voluntary! Barbaric, eh?Phinehas
July 22, 2014
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LarTanner:
One would hope that enough people would see and feel things the same. Heck, they may even make rape against the law, even in the absence of some clear, transcendent prohibition written in the sky.
One could hope. Some might not hope. I suppose it depends on their personal, subjective intuitions. In the end, as it pertains to law, might will probably make right.
(The number of all-caps words in the quote indicates the speaker’s reluctant acceptance that the position of the opponent probably makes better sense.)
My use of all caps merely reflected RDF's, "When a moral subjectivist says that rape IS[sic] wrong..." Of course, if you've got nothing substantive to say, complaining about format will have to do, I suppose.Phinehas
July 22, 2014
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RDF:
Why wasn’t there an option to refrain from having children unless one had the means to keep them from starving? Why wasn’t there an option to give the child away, but not profit from the selling of one’s children?
You mean why didn’t they abort? Not everyone is willing to kill a child in the womb and pretend that it is not a child. I marvel at the mindset of those who feign deep concern over the welfare of children even as they support the practice of dismembering them or scalding them to death in order to prevent their birth. In any case, you appear not to understand the historical circumstances. The selling of oneself or a member of the family was an established way of paying debts that could be paid no other way. It had nothing to do with “profit.” Your use of that word constitutes an attempted rhetorical trick.
Today, many families also face financial hardship and hunger, but we would expect them to (a) refrain from having children in this condition, but if they did then (b) put the child up for adoption if they couldn’t feed them. If we allowed the selling of children, I except that some families would have children just to profit from them.
There were no such agencies in those days—no welfare state, not adoption agencies. You are trying to change history again.
…..”and then selling them to rich people as indentured slaves that might be beaten with a rod because they were property. I’m sure you would find this reprehensible”.
This is another attempted rhetorical trick. Indentured servitude is not chattel slavery. It does not involve the practice of treating people like a piece of meat or beating them with rods.
Again, I would do neither. What about you?
I would do neither unless I had no other choices available. However, if my only two choices were to sell my children into indentured servitude for seven years (not chattel slavery) or let them starve, I would choose the former. So the question is this: What would you do under those same circumstances. Keep in mind that it isn’t a question about whether or not your children will starve. They are already starving. So, what do you do?StephenB
July 22, 2014
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MF
Can I confirm I understand this. It seems rather fundamental. Are you saying there is no objective basis for choosing between moral codes? I believe that is true – but I am surprised to hear it from you.
Hi Mark I would like to take a shot at this. Surprise I agree with you. I think there is an objective moral code but I cannot objectively prove this to be the case. I ASSUME tht an objective moral code must exist and I think my assumption rests on solid ground however I cannot "objectively" prove it. Does that make any sense? I also agree with RDF in that my moral code is subjective. Vivid Vividvividbleau
July 22, 2014
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"The best that a moral subjectivist can say is that rape SEEMS wrong, or that rape FEELS wrong, or that, IN THEIR ESTIMATION, rape is wrong. Without the qualifiers, they are speaking as though they are moral objectivists." One would hope that enough people would see and feel things the same. Heck, they may even make rape against the law, even in the absence of some clear, transcendent prohibition written in the sky. (The number of all-caps words in the quote indicates the speaker's reluctant acceptance that the position of the opponent probably makes better sense.)LarTanner
July 22, 2014
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RDF:
Phin: Great! If you haven’t ruled it out, then you’ll agree with me that it might not necessarily be subjectivity all the way down and that there might yet be hope for those who long for objective certainty.
RDF: Not really – even if there was a supernatural being who created the world, I don’t see why that means that His moral judgement is correct.
A transcendent being could give us a transcendent standard at the very least. A creator can say why he created a particular thing a particular way and what his design was for the creation. This at least gives him a leg up on creations that try to tell other creations that they must or must not do particular things based solely on the personal feelings of one of the creations. So, again, to contrast: I require that other autonomous beings (having no more or less moral authority than I do) modify their behavior to the point that they are compelled to comply with my demands based solely on personally-held, admittedly fallible, and, ultimately, randomly constructed (from indifferent matter) subjective intuitions that I fully recognize they (and, perhaps, the entire universe) might not share. vs. I require that beings that I've created modify their behavior to the point that they are compelled to comply with my demands based solely on my authority as their creator and my insight as their designer on how they ought best to function, though I fully recognize they (and, perhaps, the rest of the entire universe) might not agree. Again, interfering with a free agent always feels a bit icky to me, at least until put up against the kinds of atrocities that free agents have historically visited on the world, but is there really any question that the latter formulation has a stronger claim on the behavior of others than the former?
As I’ve explained endlessly here, when a moral subjectivist says that rape IS wrong, it means that rape contradicts their subjective moral intuition, not that it contradicts some sort of objective moral standard.
And as others have endlessly corrected you, the term "subjective" isn't one that you get to redefine however you like. When a moral subjectivist says that rape IS wrong, they've misspoken and should rightly be corrected. The best that a moral subjectivist can say is that rape SEEMS wrong, or that rape FEELS wrong, or that, IN THEIR ESTIMATION, rape is wrong. Without the qualifiers, they are speaking as though they are moral objectivists.
There is no difference – that’s my point. There is no objective morality...
That's a neat trick: Deny objective morality so that you can pretend your subjective reality is the same thing. I suppose its the only rhetorical trick left for you to deny that you treat your own personal subjective intuitions as though they were objective truth. We appear to be dangerously close to throwing logic out the window and resorting to denying the laws of non-contradiction or other such sophistry all for the sake of propping up an absolutely bankrupt, but wholly self-serving and convenient, view on morality. It is clear now that you've merely tried to redefine objective morality as subjective moral intuition. Without this redefinition, there is no there there. But this won't work. The IDEAS behind the words will always resist this kind of redefinition so that you will always have to rely on silly and transparent denials of those IDEAS just to tread rhetorical water.Phinehas
July 22, 2014
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Stephenb and RDFish   A small contribution. The relationship between rules of writing or musical composition of whatever and beauty is fascinating and throws a lot of light on morality.  I guess we all agree that there is an excellent (but not perfect) correlation between something conforming to these rules and aesthetic enjoyment.  Stephen says that some things are objectively more beautiful in the light of these considerations.  You could interpret this two ways.  If you simply mean that some things conform to the rules more closely than others – fine.  If you mean that there is another property beauty which the object has more of – independent of human responses – then I have to disagree.  You cannot dissociate the concept of beauty from the human response and still have the same concept. However, what you can have is a reasoned discussion based on the rules and use the rules to change people’s aesthetic response.  So in theatre, which is the art I understand best, you can explain that one precise gesture is more powerful than lots of indefinite gestures – and someone may come to appreciate that and this may change there assessment and enjoyment of a performance.  But if they do not find it more powerful there is no further place to take the place the discussion. In the end it comes down to finding a common human reaction on which you can base the discussion. This illustrates what I mean when I say (repeatedly) that subjective does not mean trivial or whimsical.  There can be extensive rational debate about a subjective issue.Mark Frank
July 22, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
The act of judging moral rape, for example, is subjective and the principle upon which that judgment can be made is objective, that is, the objective moral law. In a very loose fashion, we can make the comparison with humor. The act of evaluating or reacting to a joke is subjective; the form and structure of the joke is objective.
I think this analogy is instructive. There are all sorts of things that we find funny, and not all of them share any particular structure. Judging by YouTube, many people think that getting hit in the testicles with a golf ball is funny, or a cat falling into a bucket. The point I'm making is this: There is no analysis of the structure of humor that is anywhere near comprehensive enough to capture what people actually find funny - or not funny. Instead, we just have to listen to jokes and watch YouTube videos and find out if it strikes us as funny (aligns with our comdedic intuitions, you might say) or not. Likewise morality: There is no standardized moral code that is anywhere near comprehensive enough to capture the range of moral dilemmas we encounter. Instead, we just have to decide for ourselves, subjectively, what is right in any particular situation. (That doesn't mean that it isn't helpful to understand what other thoughtful people have said about difficult moral issues, including reading religious scripture).
Indeed, you will recall that it was for that reason that I objected vehemently to the intrusion of beauty, humor, and taste into the discussion of morality. It was not my idea.
Well, then, you force me to remind you out that the reason these things came up was because you didn't understand how using the word "is" did not necessarily indicate an objective quality - particularly after morality was repeatedly defined to be subjective. But please let's not revisit that.
The symmetry and proportions found in beautiful music (or in a beautiful person) do cause the subject to respond.
We respond to much more than symmetry and proportions - so many combinations of factors, in fact, that no analysis of beauty can fully capture why we think some things are beautiful and not others.
The principles inherent in the natural moral law do, unless our psychic has been injured, cause us to feel good when we are kind and feel bad when we are unkind.
I call this "subjective moral intuition" rather than "natural moral law", but yes, that's right.
In principle, a holy book could, I suppose, be a cluster of collective subjective opinions that may not be true and not worthy of belief. It seems to me that it would be subjective unless it is divinely inspired, that is, unless the message comes from above (God) and contains infallible, objective truths.
You think that what all people ought to do is to study the Christian Bible and follow it as a moral guide. Other people think that what all people ought to do is to study the Koran (or Book of Mormon, or some other scripture) and follow it as a moral guide. If these books contradict (and they do), then they cannot logically all be full of infallible objective truths. But which of them - if any - contain infallible objective truths? The answer is subjective opinion. And worse yet, many holy books are very old, and talk about historical contexts that have little resemblence to the situations we face today. Thus, anyone trying to use ancient scripture as a moral guide is forced to subjectively interpret what they read, extrapolating and subjectively adapting to modern situations. What all that means is that your moral code is exactly as fallible and lacking objective justification as mine. So I think one shouldn't claim that one particular holy book is right and everyone else's is wrong. I don't think one should say their religious belief is priviledged over all others. Rather, I think we should all say that everyone's moral intuitions have the same status. Virtually all individuals from all cultures agree on most moral issues (rape, kidnapping, murder, theft, cheating, torture, lying, etc are wrong), and so we collectively judge people who violate these rules.
It is an objective fact that some writers are objectively better than other writers. That is why the GRE exam scores a writers performance in objective terms, the maximum score being 6.0.
So the fact that various human beings judge the writing of another human being and gives them a score makes that objective? How about some human beings judge the morality of another human being - why isn't that objective? How about if we give out numeric scores, where 6.0 is maximally good? Would it be objective then? You have described the writing evaluations as being objective, but using the same judging methods for moral issues, you believe, would be subjective. Why?
Now it is true that the person or persons who evaluate these tests are, in some measure, providing their subjective opinion and are subject to a margin of error in their analysis. A Grad school applicant who deserves a 6.0 may only receive a 5.5 and vice versa. That is because the evaluator’s taste can become a factor. However, that difference is usually slight and not decisive enough to make or break an academic career. No one who deserves a score of 6.0 will likely receive a 3.5 and no one who deserves a score 3.5 will likely receive a 6.0. The reason for that is because good writing leaves clues about the analytic and creative sensibilities of the writer. Some are simply better at it than others.
Again, the same as moral judgement using subjective moral intuition. Someone who thinks it's ok to sell one's children may be judged more harshly by one evaluator than another. But by and large moral evaluators do agree - rape, murder, and so on are universally thought to be wrong. While you consider the evaluation of writing skills to be objective, it is all just a matter of human opinion what constitutes good writing in the first place. You think that "it would all be subjective unless it is divinely inspired" when it comes to morality - but there is no divinely inspired handbook of good writing for undergraduates.
I must say, though, that this has been one of your better efforts. You did make a sincere attempt to address and absorb the subject matter, and the framework with which you expressed you opinions did, in my opinion, lead to a reasonable exchange.
Your preceding post dropped the attacks and tried in good faith to answer the questions I'd posed. As always, my policy here is tit-for-tat, and as soon as anyone is willing to debate politely I immediately do the same.
RDF: Selling the child is wrong – one shouldn’t profit from one’s misdeeds, so I don’t think the Bible has that correct at all. SB: Clear enough. Selling a child is always wrong under any circumstances. The Bible is, therefore, wrong to tolerate it. I will assume that this is your answer to my question.
That's right.
I had asked what you would do if you had to choose between the prospect of selling your child into indentured servitude (not chattel slavery) or allowing your child to starve to death. That was the decision many had to make in Biblical times and the Bible does not condemn that decision.
Why wasn't there an option to refrain from having children unless one had the means to keep them from starving? Why wasn't there an option to give the child away, but not profit from the selling of one's children? Today, many families also face financial hardship and hunger, but we would expect them to (a) refrain from having children in this condition, but if they did then (b) put the child up for adoption if they couldn't feed them. If we allowed the selling of children, I except that some families would have children just to profit from them. Say you saw a news report where these people had no job or money but kept having children anyway, and then selling them to rich people as indentured slaves that might be beaten with a rod because they were property. I'm sure you would find this reprehensible.
I agree with the Bible’s position on this matter. Obviously, you disagree.
Yes, I strongly disagree - the idea of making money by selling your children is deeply repugnant to me.
I can only conclude, then, that you would allow a child to starve to death rather then sell it into indentured servitude. I disagree with your moral priorities, but I thank you for your answer.
Again, I would do neither. What about you? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 22, 2014
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Hi Phinehas,
Great! If you haven’t ruled it out, then you’ll agree with me that it might not necessarily be subjectivity all the way down and that there might yet be hope for those who long for objective certainty.
Not really - even if there was a supernatural being who created the world, I don't see why that means that His moral judgement is correct.
Sure, you’ve stated that you are only relying on your moral intuitions. But then you’ve also made statements as though you are objectively certain of their truth.
No, I haven't.
In other words, the statements you’ve made and how you’ve phrased them are indistinguishable from how one who believed them with objective certainty would make the same statements.
As I've explained endlessly here, when a moral subjectivist says that rape IS wrong, it means that rape contradicts their subjective moral intuition, not that it contradicts some sort of objective moral standard. Just like when you say "This pie is delicious", you mean that you subjectively find it delicious, not that it meets some objective standard for deliciousness.
Though, obviously in a much different context, aren’t Christians often accused of being narrow-minded for saying something similar?
My quote was "There is only way way - we each judge morality of ourselves and others based on our moral intuitions". I don't think that is being narrow minded - I'm open to somebody explaining how there might be some other way. But I've never had anyone explain to me how we can objectively know which of the different supposedly objective moral codes we are supposed to follow, and neither can anyone explain to me why the code of, say, the Bible is any more objective than some other code.
So, how do you say the things you say differently?
In my view, we each have undeniably have abiding moral intuitions. We can either choose to follow these moral intuitions, or we can instead decide that some scripture or text represents an objective moral code, and choose to follow that. To me, that choice is just another subjective intuition. That's why I say there is no privileged, objectively correct morality - we all have no choice but to follow our intuitions. Moreover, it's clear to me that people don't actually rely on the Bible to decide what they think is right. Do you really refrain from torturing puppies because of something in the Bible? And if the Bible said otherwise, you could see yourself doing that? I don't think so.
If not, then how would you treat your personal subjective intuition that “He is wrong. He is wrong to torture puppies,” differently if it were, instead, an objective certainty? How would one distinguish between your treatment of the two or your statements regarding the two?
There is no difference - that's my point. There is no objective morality, so when you say "It's wrong to torture puppies" and I say the same thing, we mean the same thing for the same reason - that we both have involuntary moral intuitions that this behavior is reprehensible. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 22, 2014
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To RDFish, My comments @109 should have been written to you. However, my assessment is the same. I think it is the best post you have written on the thread.StephenB
July 22, 2014
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Mark, OK. Thanks. My comments should have been written to RDFish.StephenB
July 22, 2014
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Stephenb #209 For the avoidance of confusion - you began the comment "Mark" but it was clearly addressed to RDFish - although I agree with pretty much everything he writes.Mark Frank
July 21, 2014
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RDFish
Selling the child is wrong – one shouldn’t profit from one’s misdeeds, so I don’t think the Bible has that correct at all.
Clear enough. Selling a child is always wrong under any circumstances. The Bible is, therefore, wrong to tolerate it. I will assume that this is your answer to my question. I had asked what you would do if you had to choose between the prospect of selling your child into indentured servitude (not chattel slavery) or allowing your child to starve to death. That was the decision many had to make in Biblical times and the Bible does not condemn that decision. I agree with the Bible's position on this matter. Obviously, you disagree. I can only conclude, then, that you would allow a child to starve to death rather then sell it into indentured servitude. I disagree with your moral priorities, but I thank you for your answer.StephenB
July 21, 2014
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Mark
Let’s look at all these examples: beautiful music, delicious food, funny jokes, morally good acts. In each case, we can identify certain objectively recognizable features that allow us to identify all of these things. Music theory describes how music moves us (we like resonance not dissonance, don’t change keys too often, …), culinary arts describe how food delights us (don’t mix too many spices in a single dish, desserts should not contain pickles and ice cream together…), psychologists help us understand what sorts of things are funny (defying the expectation of the setup, pointing out unspoken embarrassing truths about our bodies…), and descriptive moral theory describes aspects of morally good acts (don’t hurt people, be honest…).
OK. Good.
But what we are talking about here is the reason behind our judgements: why we experience resonant music as beautiful, why we don’t find bitter ice cream to be delicious, why we find embarrassing truths to be comical, and why feel that being honest is moral. We can imagine a world in which none of these rules hold, where we listen to dissonant music and find it beautiful, hear someone reading the phone book and find it to be funny, and watch as people rape their enemy’s wives and consider that to be moral.
I agree with the general theme in the first half of the paragraph, but the second half seems unrelated since we are attempting to describe the world as it is rather than how it could be. Still, let us continue.
If I decided that dissonant music was beautiful, you would disagree, but there would be no objective way to decide who was right. Likewise pickles and ice cream, likewise funny phone books, and likewise moral rape. All of these judgements are subjective, even though we can point to objective characteristics of the things we’re judging and claim that those characteristics support our judgment.
Yes, all the judgments are subjective. The act of judging is solely a subjective phenomenon. It is precisely this point that dramatizes the difference between the subject and the object. The act of judging moral rape, for example, is subjective and the principle upon which that judgment can be made is objective, that is, the objective moral law. In a very loose fashion, we can make the comparison with humor. The act of evaluating or reacting to a joke is subjective; the form and structure of the joke is objective. This does not mean, however, that everything in the arts is perfectly analogous to everything in the moral realm. Quite the contrary. Yes, the subject/object relationship is shared in every case, but the nature of that relationship can be quite different. In the case of beauty, for example, the subject does not overlap with the object. The perceiver of physical beauty (the subjective element) cannot influence the form of that which is beautiful (the objective element). In the case of humor, however, it is quite different. The subject can overlap with the object. Members of an audience (individual subjects) can respond to humorist’s act, contribute to it, or even undermine it. So the subject/object dynamic is always in play, but the relationship between the subject and object can vary greatly from genre to genre. To find differences among them is, in no way, to discredit the reality of the objective realm or the subjective realm.
It seems that you would like to put humor, beauty, and morality in one category of “objective”, and put deliciousness in another category of “subjective” – perhaps because you can’t think of objective things that make people find one dish appetizing and another unpalatable.
I am not putting humor, beauty, and morality in one category. On the contrary, I have pointed out several times that these genres, though they lend themselves to subject/object analysis, cannot be lined up and analyzed perfectly in such a horizontal fashion. Yes, comparisons do help to illuminate the principles involved if they are not taken to far, but you can always find ways in which the analogies fail. Indeed, you will recall that it was for that reason that I objected vehemently to the intrusion of beauty, humor, and taste into the discussion of morality. It was not my idea.
But the salient issue here in our discussion of morality is this: Just because certain objective features correlate with most people’s experience, there is nothing that explains why those features correlate except to say “that is the way human beings tend to experience these things”.
Obviously, we disagree on this one, at least at some level. The symmetry and proportions found in beautiful music (or in a beautiful person) do cause the subject to respond. The principles inherent in the natural moral law do, unless our psychic has been injured, cause us to feel good when we are kind and feel bad when we are unkind.
I could declare that Arnold Schoenberg’s Guide to Musical Composition is the objective standard for what music is beautiful, but you may disagree. You can declare that the Bible is the objective standard for what acts are moral, and I may disagree. In the end, all of these choices are subjective.
There has been no disagreement over the fact that our choices are all subjective. It is the form, structure, organization, or content of the thing chosen (not cluster of things chosen) and the fact that it is outside the subject that makes it objective. Schoenberg’s guide to music is a little more complicated, though, since it contains both objective and subjective elements. In one sense, its main theme may be just one man’s subjective opinion. In that sense, it is not outside the subject. On the other hand, it may contain objective truths, such as the relationship between music and mathematics. It is a cluster of things and, for that reason, not amenable, in my judgment, to subject/object analysis. In principle, a holy book could, I suppose, be a cluster of collective subjective opinions that may not be true and not worthy of belief. It seems to me that it would be subjective unless it is divinely inspired, that is, unless the message comes from above (God) and contains infallible, objective truths. If it comes from below (someone person or group trying to play God), it would be subjective and prone to serious error—unless and until it introduces objectively true principles. It can be a hit and miss proposition. Thus, the question would be, how does one determine whether or not the holy book in question is worthy of belief (or objectively true). I will be happy to take up that subject at some future time. .
Now, the salient question is this: Why do you hold that merely identifying some particular set of rules describing what we find funny, beautiful, moral, etc. makes some sort of difference, since that is merely another subjective choice? If you find Native Indian music beautiful and I don’t, we are having a subjective disagreement based on our aesthetic intuitions, and the fact that you could point to some book that explains why it is beautiful doesn’t change my aesthetics.
I agree that taste is subjective. However, that taste can depend on a great many things other than the inherent beauty of lack of beauty in the music, including such things as cultural formation, talent, and exposure. It takes time to develop an appreciation of certain kinds of beauty because its highest form is often found in subtle elements, such as what has been judiciously left out. One could say the same thing about the beauty of a well-written paragraph. It is an objective fact that some writers are objectively better than other writers. That is why the GRE exam scores a writers performance in objective terms, the maximum score being 6.0. Now it is true that the person or persons who evaluate these tests are, in some measure, providing their subjective opinion and are subject to a margin of error in their analysis. A Grad school applicant who deserves a 6.0 may only receive a 5.5 and vice versa. That is because the evaluator’s taste can become a factor. However, that difference is usually slight and not decisive enough to make or break an academic career. No one who deserves a score of 6.0 will likely receive a 3.5 and no one who deserves a score 3.5 will likely receive a 6.0. The reason for that is because good writing leaves clues about the analytic and creative sensibilities of the writer. Some are simply better at it than others. Even so, many people cannot distinguish a good writer from a great writer, and some cannot even distinguish a good writer from a bad writer. So it is with music and several other genres related to the arts. Objective beauty exists, but not everyone gets it. Meanwhile, tastes about which of the things that are objectively beautiful are the most beautiful will always differ. I must say, though, that this has been one of your better efforts. You did make a sincere attempt to address and absorb the subject matter, and the framework with which you expressed you opinions did, in my opinion, lead to a reasonable exchange.StephenB
July 21, 2014
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RDF:
Phin: You only say this because you’ve already ruled out the possibility of an all-knowing God with the power to reveal what is right such that it can be known with objective certainty.
RDF: It’s not that I’ve ruled it out; I simply observe that people don’t generally agree about gods and their rules, so all that remains a matter of subjective choice. Happily, though, eveyone agrees in the main about most moral issues.
Great! If you haven't ruled it out, then you'll agree with me that it might not necessarily be subjectivity all the way down and that there might yet be hope for those who long for objective certainty. It might be too early to give up the search for objective truth. It might be premature to declare that there are no objective truths to be found.
Phin: And yet you treat your personal subjective intuitions precisely as though you know them with objective certainty.
RDF: No, I’ve been very clear about this, so I think you’re being a bit obstinate. Read what I’ve said and you’ll see this isn’t the case. What I’ve said is that since there is no way to objectively verify what is the moral course of action, we are all left to our moral intuitions.
No, I'm not being obstinate at all. I'm merely stating what I see. You have not been clear at all. Sure, you've stated that you are only relying on your moral intuitions. But then you've also made statements as though you are objectively certain of their truth. In other words, the statements you've made and how you've phrased them are indistinguishable from how one who believed them with objective certainty would make the same statements.
I am right (morally compelled) to intervene in others’ behavior based on my subjective moral intuitions. ... There is nothing else for us to judge by.... ... It’s not just authority, it is an obligation. And it’s not just me, it’s everybody. ... If someone thinks that torturing puppies is aligned with their moral intuition, then there is something terribly wrong with their moral intuition... ... He is wrong. He is wrong to torture puppies, and if his moral intuition actually is that this action is right then his moral intuition is wrong... ... Nobody ought to define their own morality... ... Metaphysical naturalists, just like everyone else, ought to do what their moral intuition tells them is right. ... Oughts and musts are compelled by our subjective moral intuition. There is nothing else to go on... ... I say it is immoral, period. ... There is only one way...
There is only one way? Though, obviously in a much different context, aren't Christians often accused of being narrow-minded for saying something similar? Christians say this as though objective certainty is a reality. As if it's not just their opinion or their feeling or their perspective or their religion or otherwise something subjective that originates in their fallible mind. They say it as though it necessarily applies to and obtains for others and not just themselves. They say a lot of things as though objective certainty is the reality in which we live. So, how do you say the things you say differently? "I say it is immoral, period." Indeed. And you say it exactly like a Christian or other person believing in the objective certainty of their statement would say the same thing. This is why I say that you treat your personal subjective intuitions precisely as though you know them with objective certainty. If not, then how would you treat your personal subjective intuition that "He is wrong. He is wrong to torture puppies," differently if it were, instead, an objective certainty? How would one distinguish between your treatment of the two or your statements regarding the two?Phinehas
July 21, 2014
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Hi StephenB, Here are my subjective thoughts regarding selling children and abortion. It is surely wrong to let children suffer. If a couple conceives a child without a reasonable expectation that they can feed it, then they have done something immoral. Once that wrong has been done, what is the best way to deal with it moving forward? Selling the child is wrong - one shouldn't profit from one's misdeeds, so I don't think the Bible has that correct at all. Having the child and then killing it is wrong, because it's immoral to murder innocent children. Stopping a zygote from turning into a baby isn't wrong, because a zygote isn't a person. Killing a baby as it is being born is wrong, because a baby is a person. Somewhere between the time there is a zygote in the fallopian tube and there is a baby in the birth canal, purposefully destroying it becomes wrong. When that moment is remains a matter of difficult judgement and controversy, and I don't have anything to add to that. Perhaps you will say that a zygote is a person, but that doesn't ring true to me. You might say the zygote is a potential person, merely waiting for nourishment and uterine support, but to me sperm and egg cells are then potential people too, just waiting for the other half of the DNA, etc. You may rejoin that it is wrong to destroy sperm and egg cells, but I don't agree about that. The point here is that your objective moral code doesn't make this judgement any more objective. We are both taking similar moral intuitions and trying to apply it to borderline cases, and coming up with different conclusions, and objective moral codes have nothing to do with it. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 21, 2014
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The recognition and affirmation of the truth about various things, where it can be shown with certainty - is an objective moral norm. Prove it? Well, that norm is required in order to prove anything. Why is is a moral norm? Because acknowledging the truth of things is a responsibility that follows from freedom. Recognizing and admitting the truth is not a process reducible to chemical or physical laws - it's an immaterial, non-physical process. So what? Ok, that's the point of the thread. Within materialism, there is no reason to accept or admit the truth about anything. Actually, there can be no falsehood since that is a value judgement made about aspects of reality and physical/material reality does not contain values within it. When Metalmark moths disguise themselves as spiders, they are not telling lies. The illusion they create is "the truth for them" - it's what they do by nature. One could say, "we tell the truth because there are benefits in doing so". But there are a lot of cases where telling the truth comes with many disadvantages, including the loss of one's own life, and obviously therefore does not have survival value in those cases.Silver Asiatic
July 21, 2014
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Thanks to Mark Frank for excellent clarifications on the matter.RDFish
July 21, 2014
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Hi StephenB, OK, there has been perhaps a modicum of progress in our usual surfeit of miscommunication. Let's look at all these examples: beautiful music, delicious food, funny jokes, morally good acts. In each case, we can identify certain objectively recognizable features that allow us to identify all of these things. Music theory describes how music moves us (we like resonance not dissonance, don't change keys too often, ...), culinary arts describe how food delights us (don't mix too many spices in a single dish, desserts should not contain pickles and ice cream together...), psychologists help us understand what sorts of things are funny (defying the expectation of the setup, pointing out unspoken embarrassing truths about our bodies...), and descriptive moral theory describes aspects of morally good acts (don't hurt people, be honest...). But what we are talking about here is the reason behind our judgements: why we experience resonant music as beautiful, why we don't find bitter ice cream to be delicious, why we find embarrassing truths to be comical, and why feel that being honest is moral. We can imagine a world in which none of these rules hold, where we listen to dissonant music and find it beautiful, hear someone reading the phone book and find it to be funny, and watch as people rape their enemy's wives and consider that to be moral. If I decided that dissonant music was beautiful, you would disagree, but there would be no objective way to decide who was right. Likewise pickles and ice cream, likewise funny phone books, and likewise moral rape. All of these judgements are subjective, even though we can point to objective characteristics of the things we're judging and claim that those characteristics support our judgement. It seems that you would like to put humor, beauty, and morality in one category of "objective", and put deliciousness in another category of "subjective" - perhaps because you can't think of objective things that make people find one dish appetizing and another unpalatable. But the salient issue here in our discussion of morality is this: Just because certain objective features correlate with most people's experience, there is nothing that explains why those features correlate except to say "that is the way human beings tend to experience these things". I could declare that Arnold Schoenberg's Guide to Musical Composition is the objective standard for what music is beautiful, but you may disagree. You can declare that the Bible is the objective standard for what acts are moral, and I may disagree. In the end, all of these choices are subjective. Now, the salient question is this: Why do you hold that merely identifying some particular set of rules describing what we find funny, beautiful, moral, etc. makes some sort of difference, since that is merely another subjective choice? If you find Native Indian music beautiful and I don't, we are having a subjective disagreement based on our aesthetic intuitions, and the fact that you could point to some book that explains why it is beautiful doesn't change my aesthetics. If you find selling children for money justified and I don't, we are having a subjective disagreement based on our moral intuitions, and the fact that you can point to religious scripture that explains why it's ok is irrelevant to me. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 21, 2014
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@StephenB:
People’s perceptions reflected the reality of the new golden ratios, but those perceptions did not cause the ratios to be what they are.
I'm sorry, I'm puzzled by your statement. The study says:
Participants made paired comparisons of attractiveness (...)
If the participants had perceived attractiveness in a different way, the ratios would have been different. If the measured ratios don't establish the objective ratios, how does one know to what extent the measured ratios reflect the objective ratios? (Meaning: How does one establish the objective ratios?) Does the question make sense to you?JWTruthInLove
July 21, 2014
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#201 SB
In each individual case, however, the cause of the laughter will be the form and structure of the humor (or message as the case may be) and it will be objective; the reaction will be subjective.
The cause of something having a bad taste may be the chemicals in the food. That doesn't mean that to say it is foul-tasting is to refer to those chemicals. Of course human reactions to events and objects are in general caused by characteristics of those events and objects - chemicals lead to bad-taste, comic timing leads to humour, suffering leads to compassion, the use of the golden ratio leads to aesthetic pleasure. Those characteristics exist independently of the people and so the fact that they are there is an objective fact. That's trivial. But words like beautiful, good, funny and foul-tasting don't just mean that those objective characteristics are present. They also express the subjective reaction. Otherwise you are in the daft position of proposing that it is an empirical discovery that people laugh at funny things when it is clearly part of the meaning of the word "funny".Mark Frank
July 21, 2014
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Mark
* Not everyone will react in the way same to the same circumstances although most people will, or most people in a specific culture. There will always be people or cultures with unusual reactions – who don’t find Chaplin funny or don’t find eating rats disgusting. This can lead to rather tedious disputes over whether some thing is “really” funny or “really” obscene but also to much more significant disputes when something rides on the accepted description e.g. will the film be banned for obscenity. This doesn’t change the fact that the concept usually implies a loose set of objective circumstances. We know the kind of thing we expect to happen in a funny film.
There will always be some disagreement about what is funny in a general sense or even about how funny it is. This is doubly true across cultures. In each individual case, however, the cause of the laughter will be the form and structure of the humor (or message as the case may be) and it will be objective; the reaction will be subjective. It is not an oversimplification to bring out that point. There is no mid-point entity between the subject and the object. Indeed, they are connected and can overlap to some extent. That is why even when everyone agrees that three presenters were all funny, there will be some disagreement about which one was the funniest.StephenB
July 21, 2014
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JWT:
The “new golden ratios” were established by asking people about their perception of attractivity…
Don't be misled by the word "establish" in this context. People's perceptions reflected the reality of the new golden ratios, but those perceptions did not cause the ratios to be what they are. The new golden ratios are objective just as the old golden ratios were objective; people's perceptions of and reactions to those ratios are subjective.StephenB
July 21, 2014
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JWT: Just for reference, note this on composition in drawing. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2014
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OOPS, forgot to actually cite Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209..
KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2014
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JWT, this is off on a tangent relative to this thread, but maybe you do not know that the golden ratio is a widespread pattern of beauty, connected to Fibonacci's series, and many other things -- classically, it appears in the log spiral, e.g. cf here . . . notice how it emerges from the Fibonacci series and connects to the squares pattern, etc -- and how the aha reaction we have on seeing this hidden unity is also an aesthetic response. It is not just the Marquadt mask or some arbitrary ratios, it is much broader, and What I point to is not just the ratio 1.618 and things tied to it, but the wider context of symmetry, harmony, unity, well chosen diversity etc as elements of beauty. Beauty is not merely subjective, there is a reason why an ill-kept garbage dump is not beautiful, but an eyesore and worse. By contrast, there are ever so many examples that illustrate the same pattern, even the beauty of a mathematical expression such as Euler's result, 0 = 1 + e^i*pi. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2014
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