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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
JWT: If we often perceive things accurately, and have nothing in the stakes that warps our views, we will often reflect the underlying objectivity, like going out and seeing the waning crescent moon in the sky here as I speak. So, to seek out the consensus views of people will often reflect that objective reality. However, the point of the note I linked was, there is a gross error in the novelty, as can be seen, watch the vid. And insofar as the novelty reflects what is right, the classic phi ratio lurks. That reflects a pattern where ratios, proportions, balances, symmetry, harmony [think, horribly clashing sounds or colours by contrast] and well judged highlights and variations that make the cumulative entity not merely mechanical, are all part of beauty. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2014
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Btw.:
Marquardt's Phi mask: pitfalls of relying on fashion models and the golden ratio to describe a beautiful face. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00266-007-9080-z http://www.femininebeauty.info/aesthetics/marquardt
JWTruthInLove
July 21, 2014
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MF: Pardon, but the deceived and depraved can agree in error and even great wrong. In short, agitprop and similar techniques can work and lies and great wrongs can be entrenched -- such as in our time the mass slaughter of tens and hundreds of millions in total of the unborn, as though to be out of sight is to be out of rights. That challenge of spreading then entrenched evil backed up by mass support and often state power is a major lesson of history. Then, we face the challenge of reformation vs the use of revolutionary or reactionary force -- both of which all too often slip into might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.' Where also, as one philosophically trained you must know of one of the challenges of moral relativism, that because it tries to ground ought in social support, it implies that the lone reformer is necessarily wrong until s/he has garnered enough support to suddenly become right. Yet another sign of its incoherence. In fact, the great reformers have pointed to fundamental principles and iconic test cases that the prevailing opinions and institutions violate. Then, they have called for moving from wrong to right. And in those appeals, they have been right, not perverse or thwarting of fundamental purposes embedded in our nature. They have called us to be in better harmony with what we ought to be, not twisted distortions thereof. (This speaks straight to some cynically promoted pseudo-reforms of our time, e.g. notice an end-state revealing remark here on one of the current "progressivist" agendas.) The fundamental challenge remains: 1: We, manifestly are under moral government . . . even those who object to the binding nature of ought as rooted in an objective standard try to justify themselves. 2: This implies that OUGHT, is grounded, it is not merely convention or mutual agreement. 3: There must be an answer to the IS-OUGHT gap. 4: Such an answer must start at the foundation of the world, and so also of our worldviews. 5: across many centuries, and through much contention, it remains that there is but one serious candidate to be an IS capable of bearing the weight of ought . . . the inherently good, Creator God, a maximally great and necessary being. 6: As a consequence, those who reject such a being as root of reality and of our nature thus purpose thus also the criterion for that which is proper to our nature(whether dressed up in a lab coat or not) invariably eventually end up in implying that might and/or manipulation make 'right.' 7: So, while they cannot escape the force of OUGHT stamped in our natures -- we are morally governed creatures after all -- they consistently end up in incoherence or absurdities when they address grounding of OUGHT. 8: Where, in particular, lab coat clad materialistic views end up undermining the essence of humanity, both reason/rationality and morality. 9: Haldane sums up on the first in a nutshell (and there are many more elaborate and detailed expositions of the same all too well warranted essential point):
10: Boiled down, neural networks like other processor architectures [even if they can be accounted for in terms of FSCO/I on blind incremental evolutionary processes . . . which is in fact highly dubious to the point of being maximally implausible] run into the barrier and gap that computation on blind cause effect mechanisms is not self-aware, responsibly reasoning and deciding contemplation. 11: I will cite Dawkins' summary as presented in Sci Am in 1995, on the undermining of moral foundations inherent in lab coat clad evolutionary materialism:
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
12: There are many other manifestations of this same pattern of thought, this amorality. And, all of them boil don to this, 2350 years ago, Plato was right in his basic analysis of evolutionary materialism and where it ends, why, in The Laws, Bk X -- the same analysis that has been so studiously avoided by evolutionary materialist advocates in and around UD, for years now:
Ath. . . . [The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that . . . the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [ --> In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
On the subject of tyranny, I think we need to ask the ghosts of over 100 million victims of such factions in power over the past 100 years, and the ghosts of dozens and hundreds of millions of the unborn slaughtered in the womb in our time on the most flimsy of excuses. (And onlookers, when you hear or see those who advocate for or enable such schemes in high dudgeon over those who dare differ with their agendas, indulging in well poisoning attacks such as this by new atheist dean Dawkins and the like, please, bear in mind the history of the past 100 years as moaned out by those ghosts and the current pattern of events and agendas backed up by state consensus and agitprop.] KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2014
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@kf: Yes. I'm sorry for the confusion. It doesn't matter whether it's a new or an old ratio. I and StephenB were talking about perception and objectivity. So this is the significant part of the posting:
The “new golden ratios” were established by asking people about their perception of attractivity...
JWTruthInLove
July 21, 2014
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SB: So, I put it to you. You have no money, no prospects, and no governmental agency to save you. (I assume that you know that state-sponsored welfare did not exist in those days). Your children are starving. You know someone who, for a fact, does not abuse children, and he offers you a contract similar to conditions that we know characterize as indentured servitude. Your children must work seven years for this master, at which time they will be set free (if they want to be.) What does your subjective moral code command you to do? Is it slow death by starvation or indentured servitude? Provide your answer and your reasons to support it. Also, explain how your morality differs from the Biblical exhortation to treat everyone in those circumstances humanely. Also, tell me what any of this has to do with rape? RDFish
Consider involuntary servitude of various types, the selling of one’s children for monetary gain, raping women, beating slaves and treating them and their children as property, and genocide. If one believed that these actions could be in some circumstances morally justified, then one can easily find confirming passages in the Bible (including those I’ve quoted). Since you (like me) find these actions morally repugnant, it follows that one cannot rely on the Bible as an objective source of morality. Your judgement of these actions do not come from an objective reading of the Bible; rather, they come from your moral intuition.
What the hell kind of an evasion is that. I asked you to provide a rational answer to four relevant questions: What does your subjective moral code command you to do in this situation? Is it slow death by starvation or indentured servitude? Provide your answer and your reasons to support it. Also, explain how your morality differs from the Biblical exhortation to treat everyone in those circumstances humanely. Also, tell me what any of this has to do with rape?StephenB
July 21, 2014
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JWT: Did you take time to look here -- already linked in 154 above (i.e. "Even . . . ") -- to see how what was "new" failed, and what worked worked because -- overlooked by the proposers -- it was implicitly using the "old"? Where also, if we all go out and look at the waning crescent Moon on the morrow of the 45th anniversary of the Moon walk, we will all agree that it is there [i.e. here mutual agreement reflects the objective reality, it does not disprove it] . . . and that it is a classic icon of beauty(Just as an iconic point, the human body manifests phi and its cognates in manifold ways. But beauty is not simply "mix in phi and stir." There is symmetry and proportion, harmony, balance and highlighting and just enough variation that it is not merely mechanical but artistic. An excellent example of beauty is the equation: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi, which works by using balance, economy, coherence, surprise, unity, and more, with the "still waters run deep" phenomenon also at work.) KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2014
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RDF
Ok, so after all this you’re admitting that whether or not somebody finds something funny or not is entirely subjective. Good grief.
No. You don't understand. The act of reacting to humor is always subjective. The thing that is reacted to is objective.
If Aristotle is merely describing the object to which our aesthetic intuitions attach, how does that show beauty is objective?
Aristotle is describing that attributes of beauty. Nothing more. He is not describing the intuition. The attributes are objective; the intuition is subjective. They are connected.
What are you trying to say here? That anything with a setup and a surprise is objectively funny? You mean like a gruesome murder mystery with a twist?
I am not trying to say anything. I am saying it. The set up and the surprise are the structure and the form. That is what is objective. It doesn't follow from there that "anything with a set up and a surprise is funny." That is a total non-sequitur. It means that most things that are funny involve a set up and a surprise. If A, then B doesn't mean If B then A.
Something makes me say “funny”, and you say that’s objective.
No, not even close.
Something makes me say “yummy”, and you say that’s subjective.
No, not even close.
You say this as though you are the one who decides what is subjective and what is objective. Who gave you that authority?
It's not a question of authority. It's a question of knowledge. I understand objectivity and subjectivity. You don't.StephenB
July 21, 2014
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The discussion of which things are objective and which subjective gives me a chance to have another go at a point I have tried to make many times.  Stephenb writes:
That is the case with taste, which refers directly to the taster (subjective). It is not the case with beauty.
I am sure that this reflects an over-simple view of objective and subjective.   There are some properties that are objective – if some thing is large and spherical it has those properties independently of any human reaction or perception.  There are some properties that are subjective - as Stephen says – if I say something tastes horrible then this is a reflection of my reaction to it. It doesn’t matter what it is actually made of.  It is my experience that decides whether that statement is true.  But there are also a vast range of descriptions which fall between the two extremes - funny, disgusting, obscene, awesome.  When most people have similar reactions to broadly similar circumstances then it is not necessary or useful to decide whether the circumstances or the reaction is the defining feature. The concept implies both.  A couple of features of concepts of this type: * Not everyone will react in the way same to the same circumstances although most people will, or most people in a specific culture.   There will always be people or cultures with unusual reactions – who don’t find Chaplin funny or don’t find eating rats disgusting. This can lead to rather tedious disputes over whether some thing is “really” funny or “really” obscene but also to much more significant disputes when something rides on the accepted description e.g. will the film be banned for obscenity. This doesn’t change the fact that the concept usually implies a loose set of objective circumstances.  We know the kind of thing we expect to happen in a funny film. * There are often arguments or additional facts which can change people’s reactions: “If you know it is a satire of Barack Obama then you realise it is funny”.It is not just unreasoned opinion.  You can educate people into changing their reaction with additional detail or reasoning. That doesn’t change the fact that the concept usually implies a certain human reaction.  Funny things are things that have the potential to make people laugh. In the end there is always a subjective element. It seems to me blindingly obvious that both aesthetics and ethics fall into this intermediate category.  If something is beautiful then it will very likely have the features Aristotle proposes but it must also lead to at least some people getting a certain kind of pleasure looking at it to merit the word "beautiful".  Aristotle’s piece can be taken as advice on what to look for to get aesthetic pleasure based on vast experience. It cannot be  a complete  definition of "beautiful" as that leaves out the human pleasure that is part of the concept.  Similarly with ethics – although ethics introduces another element – as well has having a certain kind of reaction to human suffering we also want others to stop inflicting it.  As vj wrote back in  #72 – there must a prescriptive element to moral concepts. But it doesn’t need an elaborate metaphysical justification.  That is just what the concept includes. If I say something is evil then that includes: * My abhorrence of it * My belief I can get others to share that abhorrence * An exhortation to stop it * Some idea of some of the features of it – e.g. inflicts human suffering or similar That is the role that word plays in our society and none of those features is, by itself, a defining feature.Mark Frank
July 21, 2014
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@StephenB: The "new golden ratios" were established by asking people about their perception of attractivity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2814183/pdf/nihms164846.pdfJWTruthInLove
July 21, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
You’re the one who attacked me for using the word “is” to stave off I accused you of abusing the language by saying that any morality that conflicts with your subjective morality is faulty. That is a claim about objective error.
No, as I've explained so many times I lost count, when X judges Y's moral intuitions to be faulty, that means that the moral intuitions of X are not consistent with the moral intuitions of Y. Really: So many times I lost count.
RDF: How can morality be objective when the choice of what moral code to follow is subjective? Answer: The choice of the moral code has nothing to do with the objective nature of the code that is chosen. One can choose an objective code, as I have, or one can choose a subjective code, as you have. Object = the thing chosen. Subject = the chooser.
You subjectively believe that your moral code is objective. I subjectively believe that your moral code is subjective (that is, I believe that you are simply attributing the subjective moral intuitions of human beings to a supernatural being). Both of us, then, subjecively adheres to our own moral judgement. There's simply no alternative.
The word “is” implies an objective quality unless it is used in a context in which it refers to something that is subjective by definition.
Oh, good grief. In that case, when a subjectivist defines a moral judgement to be a subjective intuition, then when a subjectivist says rape is immoral, it is perfectly consistent usage of the word "is" according to your rule!!! I know that no matter how many times I show how this whole "is/seems" tactic you've chosen is an utter debacle, you still won't admit it. But I'm tired of it, so here's a deal: I won't bring up your harebrained ideas about is/seems again if you promise to stop asking me what a subjectivist means when they say something is immoral or that one's moral intuition is faulty. Do we have a deal?
RDF: If Aristotle is merely describing our aesthetic inuitions, how does that show beauty is objective? SB: Aristotle is not describing our aesthetic intuitions. He is describing the object to which are aesthetic intuitions attach.
Fine (sigh): If Aristotle is merely describing the object to which our aesthetic intuitions attach, how does that show beauty is objective?
Beauty is not something that is decided upon. It is something that it recognized and appreciated for what it is. The works of Mozart, Bach, and Chopin are all objectively beautiful.
You describe some things about music that most (but not all) people subjectively enjoy - how does that make these pieces of music objectively beautiful? Say somebody says that the most beautiful music is that which consists of only one note played in different timbres and volumes. You disagree and insist that music needs structure, tension, resolution... these are all just your subjective opinions! Does God come down and provide the arbitration here? (hint: No, He doesn't). Your imperial decree that beauty is objective is simply wrong.
RDF: If humor is objective, who decides what is funny? The anatomy of a joke is the set up and the surprise. That is the objective component.
What are you trying to say here? That anything with a setup and a surprise is objectively funny? You mean like a gruesome murder mystery with a twist?
But there is also the subjective element present in the fact that not everyone is equally amused by any given joke.
Ok, so after all this you're admitting that whether or not somebody finds something funny or not is entirely subjective. Good grief.
The taste of food is totally subjective.
Something makes me say "funny", and you say that's objective. Something makes me say "yummy", and you say that's subjective. You say this as though you are the one who decides what is subjective and what is objective. Who gave you that authority?
Let’s hear how this is an infallible, unchanging, objective guide to moral behavior, Stephen. Is this how you act? I answered your questions @168, and followed with a few of my own. It was lost in the mix of long posts. What is your response?
Here is my response again: Consider involuntary servitude of various types, the selling of one's children for monetary gain, raping women, beating slaves and treating them and their children as property, and genocide. If one believed that these actions could be in some circumstances morally justified, then one can easily find confirming passages in the Bible (including those I've quoted). Since you (like me) find these actions morally repugnant, it follows that one cannot rely on the Bible as an objective source of morality. Your judgement of these actions do not come from an objective reading of the Bible; rather, they come from your moral intuition. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 21, 2014
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JWTruthInLove
One can also define objective beauty by “what most human testobjects percept to be beautiful”.
If we define beauty on the basis of how it is perceived, as opposed to defining it on the basis of its form or structure, then we have provided a subjective definition. Of course, how it is formed and structured will influence how it is perceived, so there is a strong connection between the objective and the subjective. They certainly cannot be separated. Still, if we define something according to how it affects us--the subjects--as opposed to the qualities that affected us--which is outside of us--then we have provided a subjective definition.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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Mark
Are you saying there is no objective basis for choosing between moral codes?
No. No. I am saying that the mere act of choosing a moral code has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the code thus chosen is objective or subjective. Its nature, whether objective or subjective, has already been established prior to the choice. It was chosen because it is what it is. It didn't become what it is because it was chosen.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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Stephenb
The choice of the moral code has nothing to do with the objective nature of the code that is chosen. One can choose an objective code, as I have, or one can choose a subjective code, as you have. Object = the thing chosen
Can I confirm I understand this. It seems rather fundamental. Are you saying there is no objective basis for choosing between moral codes? I believe that is true - but I am surprised to hear it from you.Mark Frank
July 20, 2014
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StephenB: The works of Mozart, Bach, and Chopin are all objectively beautiful. That beauty is reflected in the mathematical precision, order, and structure in their music.
One can also define objective beauty by "what most human testobjects percept to be beautiful". So it's pretty easy to establish objective properties of something. Ask a representative set of people -> establish a model which describes the results -> call it objective.JWTruthInLove
July 20, 2014
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RDF
Why is the taste of food subjective, but the perception of humor objective?
This question reflects a large part of the confusion that reigns over this discussion. The "perception" of humor is, by definition, subjective. The perceiving subject (the listener) is not synonymous with thing perceived (the joke), which comes from the outside of the listener.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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You just have to love people who hypocritically cry foul.Mung
July 20, 2014
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RDFish:
You [StephenB] have dodged all of my questions
So? RDFish:
...and then with stunning hypocrisy decided that I was the one avoiding the issues.
So? Why ought StephenB to have acted differently? What was his moral failing? Hypocrisy? Really? How so?Mung
July 20, 2014
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StephenB:
KF, RDF is not interested in discussing the New Testament or the clear teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount. Clarity is his enemy; confusion is his friend.
KF, RDF is not interested in discussing the New Testament or the clear teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount. Charity is his enemy; confusion is his friend. There, fixed it fer ya.Mung
July 20, 2014
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You can make up your own subjective interpretations all you’d like, and they will fit your moral intuitions a lot better than what the Bible actually says. But that sure doesn’t mean the Bible provides an objective guide to morality.
How could you possibly know if the Bible does or does not provide an objective standard for morality if you don't even know what that standard is or where it can be found?StephenB
July 20, 2014
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RDF @174
Let’s hear how this is an infallible, unchanging, objective guide to moral behavior, Stephen. Is this how you act?
I answered your questions @168, and followed with a few of my own. It was lost in the mix of long posts. What is your response?StephenB
July 20, 2014
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RDF
You’re the one who attacked me for using the word “is” to stave off
I accused you of abusing the language by saying that any morality that conflicts with your subjective morality is faulty. That is a claim about objective error. There is no question that faulty means to fail to live up to an objective standard and there is no question that "is," in that context, means failing to live up to an objective standard. I didn't answer some of your questions because I didn't want to spend all that time on peripheral issues. However, I will answer them now: RDF: How can morality be objective when the choice of what moral code to follow is subjective? Answer: The choice of the moral code has nothing to do with the objective nature of the code that is chosen. One can choose an objective code, as I have, or one can choose a subjective code, as you have. Object = the thing chosen. Subject = the chooser. RDF: Why do you claim moral subjectivism is inconsistent when I’ve explained exactly what is meant when a moral subjectivist says X is immoral? Answer: I don't recall using the word "Inconsistent." Provide the quote and the context and I will explain it. Moral subjectivism is arbitrary. RDF: If the word “is” implies an objective quality, and taste is a subjective quality, then why do we say “This food is delicious?” Answer: The word "is" implies an objective quality unless it is used in a context in which it refers to something that is subjective by definition. That is the case with taste, which refers directly to the taster (subjective). It is not the case with beauty. Without that special context, the word means what it means, which is why I provided the dictionary definition. There is no question that "faulty," refers to an objective standard of perfection. None whatsoever. RDF: If beauty is objective, who decides what is beautiful and what isn’t? Beauty is not something that is decided upon. It is something that it recognized and appreciated for what it is. There is a subjective component to beauty, of course. That is where taste comes in. The works of Mozart, Bach, and Chopin are all objectively beautiful. That beauty is reflected in the mathematical precision, order, and structure in their music. It is also present in the unity and thematic nature inherent in the organization. The subjective element comes into play when listeners decide for themselves which of the three works of beauty are the most beautiful. That is where subjective taste comes into play. However, their personal opinion does not cause the music to be beautiful. No matter how much one tries to project his subjectivism onto a child banging his teaspoon on the table it will not cause that noise to become a beautiful piece a music. Such beauty requires architecture and creativity from a source outside of the listener. RDF: If Aristotle is merely describing our aesthetic inuitions, how does that show beauty is objective? Aristotle is not describing our aesthetic intuitions. He is describing the object to which are aesthetic intuitions attach. RDF: If humor is objective, who decides what is funny? The anatomy of a joke is the set up and the surprise. That is the objective component. But there is also the subjective element present in the fact that not everyone is equally amused by any given joke. Remember, there is a subjective component in all the arts. Indeed, there is a subjective component to objective morality. Every individual (subject) must apply the unchanging objective moral law to his changing, subjective circumstances. Just because morality is objective doesn't mean that subjectivity does not enter in. The error is in believing that the morality itself is subjective. RDF: Why is the taste of food subjective, but the perception of humor objective? The taste of food is totally subjective. There is no such thing as an objectively tasty meal. I remember answering that question earlier.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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SB: Accordingly, his [my] objective is to find moral errors in the complex historical events of the Old Testament by misinterpreting related biblical passages.
You can make up your own subjective interpretations all you'd like, and they will fit your moral intuitions a lot better than what the Bible actually says. But that sure doesn't mean the Bible provides an objective guide to morality. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 20, 2014
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Hi StephenB, You began by accusing me of using "objective language" without believing in objective morality. I explained that my language was not referring to objective morality, and explained what it meant within subjectivism. You claimed that the word "is" implied objective qualities, and I've proceeded to show you (and everyone else) how inane your position is. You have dodged all of my questions... and then with stunning hypocrisy decided that I was the one avoiding the issues. I think you forget that all of our posts are right here on this page for everyone to see. I'll do you a favor and list a few of the questions you've dodged: RDF: How can morality be objective when the choice of what moral code to follow is subjective? SB: [dodges the question] RDF: Why do you claim moral subjectivism is inconsistent when I've explained exactly what is meant when a moral subjectivist says X is immoral? SB: [dodges the question, then decides it's because the word "is" implies objectivism] RDF: If the word "is" implies an objective quality, and taste is a subjective quality, then why do we say "This food is delicious?" SB: [dodges the question] RDF: If beauty is objective, who decides what is beautiful and what isn't? SB: [dodges the question] RDF: If Aristotle is merely describing our aesthetic inuitions, how does that show beauty is objective? SB: [dodges the question] RDF: If humor is objective, who decides what is funny? SB: [dodges the question] RDF: Why is the taste of food subjective, but the perception of humor objective? SB: [dodges the question] I could go on of course. You're the one who attacked me for using the word "is" to stave off my subjectivism, and now you're trying to get me to drop the issue - because you are so obviously wrong. Go ahead, show us that you can actually make sense of your position by answering these questions. But as everyone can see, you cannot do it. But of course it gets worse: RDF: Here the Bible talks about selling your children, and fails to condemn it. But selling your children is wrong in every context. How can the objective handbook of morality fail to condemn this? SB: Sometimes it's right to sell your children for some money, if you are really poor. RDF: I think that is reprehensible. If you couldn't afford to raise your children, you shouldn't have had sex. RDF: The Bible discusses rape frequently without condeming it. But raping women is wrong in every context. How can the objective handbook of morality fail to condemn this? SB: [dodges the question] RDF: I think that is reprehensible. Your attempt to spin these Bible passages is predictably disingenuous. Here is some choice objective, unchanging morality for you, all straight from the source:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. ... If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. ... (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT) When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Let's hear how this is an infallible, unchanging, objective guide to moral behavior, Stephen. Is this how you act? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 20, 2014
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kairosfocus
SB: At this point RDF has stepped beyond the pale of civil discussion. KF
KF, RDF is not interested in discussing the New Testament or the clear teachings found in the Sermon on the Mount. Clarity is his enemy; confusion is his friend. Accordingly, his objective is to find moral errors in the complex historical events of the Old Testament by misinterpreting related biblical passages.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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SB: Do you condemn abortion? Do your tender and subjective (and convenient) moral sensibilities extend to helpless unborn children in the womb? velikovskys
Since many believe that is not self evidently true, what is your basis for your subjective belief that is objectively true?
I don't know what you are referring to. I didn't make a statement or disclose my subjective belief about anything. I simply asked RDFish a question, and, as usual, he is afraid to answer. Since you want to enter into the fray, I will let you answer the question for him. If, after answering my question, you would like to ask one of me, I will provide an answer.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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SB: At this point RDF has stepped beyond the pale of civil discussion. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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RDFish
Why? Where in the Bible does it say you may not ever rape anyone?
Because it violates the fifth commandment against physical violence and the ninth commandment against sexual lust.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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F/N: I am sufficiently disgusted with RDF's rhetorical tactics above to do something I would not otherwise do. Here, in a lump, is the overview of Judaeo-Christian ethics from its central teacher, in Matt 5 - 7 . . . The Sermon on the Mount: ________________ >> Matthew 5-7New English Translation (NET Bible) The Beatitudes 5 When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain. After he sat down his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to teach them by saying: 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. 4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. 10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled on by people. 14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good deeds and give honor to your Father in heaven. Fulfillment of the Law and Prophets 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger and Murder 21 “You have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not murder,’ and ‘whoever murders will be subjected to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell. 23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift. 25 Reach agreement quickly with your accuser while on the way to court, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the warden, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will never get out of there until you have paid the last penny! Adultery 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell. Divorce 31 “It was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a legal document.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not break an oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not take oaths at all—not by heaven, because it is the throne of God, 35 not by earth, because it is his footstool, and not by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. 36 Do not take an oath by your head, because you are not able to make one hair white or black. 37 Let your word be ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no.’ More than this is from the evil one. Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic, give him your coat also. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not reject the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they? 47 And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don’t they? 48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Pure-hearted Giving 6 “Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven. 2 Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. 3 But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Private Prayer 5 “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. 7 When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 So pray this way: Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored, 10 may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread, 12 and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 14 “For if you forgive others their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins. Proper Fasting 16 “When you fast, do not look sullen like the hypocrites, for they make their faces unattractive so that people will see them fasting. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. 17 When you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others when you are fasting, but only to your Father who is in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Lasting Treasure 19 “Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If then your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is diseased, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Do Not Worry 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? 26 Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? 27 And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? 28 Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30 And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? 31 So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own. Do Not Judge 7 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. 3 Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? 5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces. Ask, Seek, Knock 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you then, although you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets. The Narrow Gate 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and there are few who find it! A Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit. Judgment of Pretenders 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven—only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ Hearing and Doing 24 “Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, but it did not collapse because it had been founded on rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, and it collapsed; it was utterly destroyed!” 28 When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed by his teaching, 29 because he taught them like one who had authority, not like their experts in the law. >> ________________ I hope RDF has enough decency left to be deeply ashamed for what he tried to do. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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SB: Yes, I condemn rape and exploitation of any kind. RDFish
Why? Where in the Bible does it say you may not ever rape anyone? Because it violates the fifth commandment against violence and the ninth commandment against lust.
Or that you cannot sell your children for money? Nowhere, of course, because the Bible accepts these horrific deeds without condemnation. It is only your subjective moral intuition that tells you these acts are repulsive.
You are very confused. The morality of an action in these situations turns on the relationship—not the social conditions. The Old Testament, or for that matter, the New Testament, places emphasis on the way “slaves” (the word has not been defined) are treated because it is the nature of the treatment that defines the relationship. Most “slavery in ancient times involved the holding of conquered soldiers as indentured servants so as to not allow them suit up again. It was usually of temporary duration—something like seven years. Would you have murdered those soldiers instead? In some cases, indentured servitude involved poor people seeking ways to survive? Would you allow your children to starve if the issue was homelessness vs. indentured servitude, keeping in mind that indentured servitude does not constitute sexual slavery nor does it involve fighting in the arena as a gladiator for the amusement of others? It is NOT chattel slavery or anything close to it. So, I put it to you. You have no money, no prospects, and no governmental agency to save you. (I assume that you know that state-sponsored welfare did not exist in those days). Your children are starving. You know someone who, for a fact, does not abuse children, and he offers you a contract similar to conditions that we know characterize as indentured servitude. Your children must work seven years for this master, at which time they will be set free (if they want to be.) What does your subjective moral code command you to do? Is it slow death by starvation or indentured servitude? Provide your answer and your reasons to support it. Also, explain how your morality differs from the Biblical exhortation to treat everyone in those circumstances humanely. Also, tell me what any of this has to do with rape?
StephenB
July 20, 2014
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F/N: Those tempted to play at well poisoning distractors would be well advised to consider the issues raised by Rabbi Boteach, here; especially in light of the issue that after one poisons the well, where are we all going to drink from becomes an issue. I note as well that the matters put on the table 2350 yeas ago by Plato in The Laws, Bk X continue to be studiously ignored. I suggest that serious onlookers refocus the primary issue, our evident status as morally governed creatures, the implication that OUGHT is real, and the question of a world-foundational IS that properly grounds OUGHT. KF PS: for those unsure of the core of Biblical morality and its implications (in light of angry-at-God talking points), let me use a Pauline summary with obvious roots in what was taught by Jesus and Moses as pivotal:
Rom 13:8 Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one’s fellowmen, meeting all its requirements]. 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 10 Love does no wrong to one’s neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law. [AMP]
Any purported presentation of the focal pivot of Judaeo- Christian ethics that is not consistent with this, is fundamentally false. (As is the suggestion above that the Judaeo- Christian ethical framework endorses rape, etc. We are talking here a system that holds that to look at a woman with lust is morally speaking to already be bguilty of adultery.)kairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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