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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
JWT: BTW, years ago I had a Muslim prof, who talked with me about wine prohibitions under Islam. In summary the Imams made it clear alcohol was forbidden, but he said he looked at sources and saw don't get drunk. FWIW, it is notorious that strict Sunnis do generally hold that alcohol use is forbidden and sometimes resort to force in enforcing that. I recall an old joke long ago now on a prince who imported furniture into a certain notoriously strict Muslim state, who got an urgent call from customs -- the furniture crate was dripping Whiskey. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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@StephenB:
“Facial Analysis and the Beauty Mask” –“Beauty is in the phi of the beholder.”
This is what RDF said:
Just like descriptive moral theory seeks to understand our moral intuitions, theories of aesthetics seek to under our subjective intuitions about beauty.
JWTruthInLove
July 20, 2014
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RDFish
Tsk, tsk, now. I know you wasted a tremendous amount of time looking up these references, and now they’ve turned out to be completely irrelevant to our discussion. Too bad!
This is precious. First, RD introduces the subject of beauty to evade my refutation of his contradictory notions about objectivity and faulty moral codes. Then, as a means of sustaining that distraction, RD says that he has never heard of "anyone" other than me who thinks that beauty is objective. In order to dramatize the point even further, he claims that any school child would know better. Now, after he learns that two thousand years of Western thought supported this view, he tells us that the refutation is irrelevant to the discussion. It just keeps getting better and better. By the way, I notice that RD failed to connect to the link that kairosfocus provided: "Facial Analysis and the Beauty Mask" --“Beauty is in the phi of the beholder.” Oh well, if doubling down is your thing, I guess you can't afford to follow up on facts in evidence. Meanwhile, I have given up trying to get RD to confront the issue on the table. What is the point of issuing multiple challenges to someone who cannot endure refutations and is always looking for a distraction. SB: My refutation is still in force. (about objectivity and moral faults)
You’re refutation is a farce. Humor is objective?
Get the picture? Distractions, distractions, distractions. Anything to avoid discussing his error about objectivity and moral faults. Distractions about humor, distractions about beauty, distractions about delicious foods. Why would a person spend so much time and energy running for cover? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply address the issue.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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Stephen B. Yes, I condemn rape and exploitation of any kind. Unlike yourself, I recognize these acts to be objective moral evils. So if the acts themselves are objectively immoral,any justification would not change their status as being immoral? No ends justify the means,correct? Likewise anyone condoning an immoral act would be in fact committing an immoral act? Do you condemn abortion? Do your tender and subjective (and convenient) moral sensibilities extend to helpless unborn children in the womb? Since many believe that is not self evidently true, what is your basis for your subjective belief that is objectively true? Or are your subjective intuitions duly aligned with the politically-correct hypocrites that rule our culture? Only those claim in public to oppose abortions while in private availing themselves could be viewed as hypocrites. Otherwise it does not seem hypocritical to support choice by choosing.velikovskys
July 20, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
I am the only person you have ever known to say this? You have never heard of Plato, Aristotle, or Euclid?
Your mistake here is that you've got the whole thing backwards. These people worked (and by the way, the study of aesthetics didn't stop with them - it is still being studied of course) to understand our innate subjective aesthetic intuitions - they don't begin with some objective standard of beauty and tell people they must agree. Who, pray tell, is authorized to set the objective standard for what is beautiful and what is not? The fact that we all find Angelina Jolie and Scarlett Johansson beautiful (well, at least I do!) does not make that an objective fact, right? Do I get to decide who is beautiful? Do you? Does Euclid? Does the Bible enumerate the proportions of the female body that I find attractive? Should I find redheads more objectively beautiful than blondes? Are black women as objectively beautiful as white women? Where is that objectively decided? Squirm, wiggle, and dodge dance all you'd like, but the fact remains: "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and this tells even schoolkids that we do not all agree on who or what is beautiful.
Aristotle says in the Poetics that “to be beautiful, a living creature, and every whole made up of parts, must … present a certain order in its arrangement of parts” (Aristotle, volume 2, 2322 [1450b34]). And in the Metaphysics: “The chief forms of beauty are order and symmetry and definiteness, which the mathematical sciences demonstrate in a special degree” (Aristotle, volume 2 1705 [1078a36]).
Ah - so Aristotle is the ultimate arbiter of what is beautiful! How did he get that job? Why is his opinion objective truth? Still don't get it? Just like our subjective morality, we have a subjective aesthetic. Just like morality, our aesthetic intuitions align to a great degree, even though there are significant divergences among different cultures and different individuals. Just like descriptive moral theory seeks to understand our moral intuitions, theories of aesthetics seek to under our subjective intuitions about beauty. Get it? Even if you do, you won't admit it, but I'm pretty sure you know you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper.
Please don’t get the impression that my references end here. I could fill up the remainder of this thread with that which you have never heard of. If what you believe is what “every school kid knows,” that would explain the decline in modern education.
Tsk, tsk, now. I know you wasted a tremendous amount of time looking up these references, and now they've turned out to be completely irrelevant to our discussion. Too bad!
However, this beauty thing was your idea.
The "beauty thing" was to show how completely ridiculous was your assertion that the word "is" refers to objective qualities. This stupid idea has led to you absolutely inane ideas such as "what is funny is objective, but what tastes good is subjective" (or maybe it was the other way around?). And your pathetic claim about the word "is" was prompted in the first place because you were trying to say I used "objective language" to describe moral subjectivism! You have been as wrong as it is possible to be at every turn in the discussion!
My refutation is still in force.
You're refutation is a farce. Humor is objective? I would definitely bet we do not find the same things funny, you and I. Which of us is objectively correct to laugh? How can we find out? Does the Bible tell us if Louis C.K. is funny or not? How about the Three Stooges? Let it go - you are making a fool of yourself.
You are misusing the language when you say that any subjective moral intuition that conflicts with your subjective intuition IS faulty, when you mean that it only SEEMS faulty to you.
This tactic was exactly what led you down this fatuous exercise in the first place. I told you at least two dozen times that in moral subjectivism, when one says "X is wrong", what that means is "X contradicts my subjective moral intuition". There is nothing hard to understand about that, and there is certainly nothing contradictory about the word "is" in that sentence (as I've demonstrated over and over again).
Is third person for “to be” “To exist.” “To have being” “To have existence”
What is wrong with you?!?!?! Here is a sentence: Chris Rock is funny. How does your dictionary definition work in that sentence? GIVE IT UP!!!! YOU ARE SO WRONG!!!
Yes, I condemn rape and exploitation of any kind.
Why? Where in the Bible does it say you may not ever rape anyone? Or that you cannot sell your children for money? Nowhere, of course, because the Bible accepts these horrific deeds without condemnation. It is only your subjective moral intuition that tells you these acts are repulsive. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 20, 2014
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JWTruthInLove, Thank you for the link. As usual, when it comes to holy books and theological disputes, there is more than one side to a story.Daniel King
July 20, 2014
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F/N: some have tried to get away from foundations, suggesting for instance a web like a spiderweb, or a raft under perpetual reconstruction. In all such cases it fails -- a web rests on foundational anchor-lines, and a raft both must have structural integrity and depends on the support of the sea. Even a spaceship rests on structural and functional integrity anchored on principles of design tied to the grounding laws of the world. Any chain of warrant . . . why accept A? B; why B? C. Etc . . . will end in infinite regress or question-begging circularity or else a finitely remote set of first plausibles. Neither of the first two can stand. It is on comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, that we may choose a credible foundation without begging questions. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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JWT: There is a keystone principle in Islamic reasoning, abrogation. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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DK: Pardon, but at this level, it is about worldviews, not books blindly taken as blanket authorities; we seek plumb-line principles of moral reasoning. In particular, answering to how does one ground that universal sense of ought that leads even you to try to justify yourself in your attempts to set up and knock over a "fundamentalist" strawman. We live in a world where OUGHT is credibly real and binding, starting with the right to life, and to many other things generally connected to fairness. As in, we universally quarrel: You unfair me! And just as universally, when we really care, we acknowledge that yes, we do have duties to be fair. What grounds such . . . what IS can properly bear the weight of OUGHT? The first bit of the answer comes back, it has to be worldview-foundational, for after that we will always run into but how is it grounded, and into the IS-OUGHT gap. The only truly serious worldview level coherent, plumb-line answer (after thousands of years of debate) is this . . . OUGHT can only be grounded in an inherently good Creator God, the necessary and maximally great being at the root of reality. So, in the end OUGHT leads you to the Good and Great God, or else rejection of OUGHT on whatever excuse decisively undermines OUGHT in lives and communities. Much, as "that Bible-thumping Fundy" -- NOT! -- Plato pointed out in The Laws Bk X, 2350 years ago. (The very passage cited again above and just as studiously ignored as ever. But it gives the lie to your strawman tactic "fundy." Sometimes, when you have to ignore an elephant in the middle of the room for years, it speaks louder than words can.) Where, too, patently: if you have a RIGHT to your life, liberty, innocent reputation, etc, it is because others have a duty . . . OUGHT . . . to respect you, your life, liberty etc because of your intrinsic value as a human being -- AKA, love and thus respect neighbour as self. And by manifest reciprocity among creatures who are as we are, this imposes a network of mutual obligations. So also, as Locke, citing Hooker (in turn making reference to Aristotle) so aptly summed up in his 2nd treatise on civil Govt, Ch 2:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . [Eccl. Polity, preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Of such, no reasonably well educated or experienced person can credibly plead ignorance. From maybe the intelligent twelve year old on up. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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@Daniel King:
Thanks for the quote from the Qur’an about God being able to change his mind about right and wrong.
Regarding StephenB's wine-example: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/Internal/qi028.html.JWTruthInLove
July 20, 2014
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StephenB:
...Islam does not accept the natural moral law or the inherent dignity of the human person, and it claims that God can change his mind about what is right and wrong.
Thanks for the quote from the Qur’an about God being able to change his mind about right and wrong. Do you have references for the other two claims above?
Insofar as not everything in some of these books faithfully reflects the objective moral law, one would expect discrepancies.
Would you mind addressing how one chooses - objectively - which book is 100% faithful to the objective moral law?Daniel King
July 20, 2014
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RDFish
This is just scary. In your view, the Bible is the sole infallible guide to objectively correct morality for all of humanity.
This is just another one of your side stories to avoid the topic under discussion. Just as you sought to hide behind irrelevant issues like beauty and taste to avoid a discussion about faulty morality, you seek to hide behind the bible to avoid the topic under discussion, which is the unchanging nature of objective morality. For some reason, you feel the need to change the subject when a refutation is in the works.
Just face the facts, Stephen: Either you condemn the selling of one’s children for money (or raping ones’ enemies, etc) or you don’t.
Good grief, what a demagogue you are. Yes, I condemn rape and exploitation of any kind. Unlike yourself, I recognize these acts to be objective moral evils. Do you condemn abortion? Do your tender and subjective (and convenient) moral sensibilities extend to helpless unborn children in the womb? Or are your subjective intuitions duly aligned with the politically-correct hypocrites that rule our culture?
If you condemn these acts, you must admit that the Bible is not an objective guide to morality, and that you need to rely on your moral intuition instead.
The bible does not condone slavery of any kind, your amateurish attempts at biblical exegesis notwithstanding.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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RDF: Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, but how? (Hint, what does 1.618 have to do with it? Even, when we try to get away from it? And of course, more broadly . . . ) KF PS: Look for symmetry, proportions, order, and highlighted assymetry that gives a pleasing surprise.kairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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RDFish
Ok, this particular exchange with you has revealed even more clearly than before that you will say simply anything – no matter how outlandish – to defend your beliefs and avoid admitting your errors. You are the only person I have ever known to claim that beauty is an objective attribute. Everyone else knows that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which means it is subjective. Honestly, every schoolkid knows what that means, yet you refuse to admit that beauty is subjective.
I am the only person you have ever known to say this? You have never heard of Plato, Aristotle, or Euclid? You have never heard of the “Canon of Polykleitos.” You have never heard of the Roman architect Vitruvius? You have never heard of Aquinas? You have never heard of the Beautific Vision. You have never heard of the Italian Renaissance? Wow, you don’t read much, do you? Here is just a taste of what you have missed. Aristotle says in the Poetics that “to be beautiful, a living creature, and every whole made up of parts, must … present a certain order in its arrangement of parts” (Aristotle, volume 2, 2322 [1450b34]). And in the Metaphysics: “The chief forms of beauty are order and symmetry and definiteness, which the mathematical sciences demonstrate in a special degree” (Aristotle, volume 2 1705 [1078a36]). Or try this: "Order is the balanced adjustment of the details of the work separately, and as to the whole, the arrangement of the proportion with a view to a symmetrical result. Proportion implies a graceful semblance: the suitable display of details in their context. This is attained when the details of the work are of a height suitable to their breadth, of a breadth suitable to their length; in a word, when everything has a symmetrical correspondence. Symmetry also is the appropriate harmony arising out of the details of the work itself: the correspondence of each given detail to the form of the design as a whole. As in the human body, from cubit, foot, palm, inch and other small parts come the symmetric quality of eurhythmy. (Vitruvius, 26–27)” Or try this: “There are three requirements for beauty. Firstly, integrity or perfection—for if something is impaired it is ugly. Then there is due proportion or consonance. And also clarity: whence things that are brightly coloured are called beautiful” (Summa Theologica I, 39, 8). Please don't get the impression that my references end here. I could fill up the remainder of this thread with that which you have never heard of. If what you believe is what "every school kid knows," that would explain the decline in modern education. However, this beauty thing was your idea. You brought it up to avoid the fact that “faulty morality,” which you attribute to anything that conflicts with your personal morality, must, by definition, be objective. Since you couldn’t tolerate the refutation, and you were soundly refuted, you sought refuge in this useless discussion about “beauty.” My refutation is still in force. You are misusing the language when you say that any subjective moral intuition that conflicts with your subjective intuition IS faulty, when you mean that it only SEEMS faulty to you. In this way, you seek to have it both ways, creating the impression of objectivity while arguing on behalf of subjectivity. Your attempts to distract with side stories about beauty and taste have failed miserably.
Then you start making up crazy rules to support your position, such as “‘is’ refers to objective being”… except when it doesn’t. What rulebook are you using for these ridiculous assertions?
Oh, its that crazy rule book which has always been your infernal enemy. The one that continually calls attention to your equivocations and deceptions. Its that insane reference that continually makes "ridiculous assertions. It's called..... a dictionary. Is third person for "to be" "To exist." "To have being" "To have existence" Seems "give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality." synonyms: "appear (to be), have the appearance/air of being, give the impression of being, look, look as though one is, show signs of being, look to be; "used to make a statement or description of one's thoughts, feelings, or actions less assertive or forceful." ----------------------------------------------------------- Yes, RD, I know you hate the fact that words mean things, but they do. If only you would use them to express and clarify rather than deceive and obfuscate, our discussions would be much more fruitful.StephenB
July 20, 2014
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G2: You full well know the history of the French, Russian and Chinese revolutions etc. and their consequences; unless you are deaf to the moans of over 100 million ghosts from the century just past. I am pointing to the difference between reformation and revolution and how it reflects the difference between reasonable and progressive moral suasion and legitimacy on one hand and might and manipulation make 'right' on the other. Or, do you want me to be a lot more relevant and point to the ongoing American holocaust of 50+ million unborn children slaughtered in the womb in the name of "choice"? And hundreds of millions elsewhere similarly slaughtered? As in cumulatively, the biggest holocaust of all -- the one that is currently ongoing and which is utterly unacknowledged as what it is? My point is that in reply to even that ongoing horror, the proper path is reform based on heart-softening moral suasion rooted in truth. Plainly, the IS-OUGHT gap and the inherent amorality of evolutionary materialism and its travelling companions is a case of ideas have consequences, consequences warned against on the record since Plato in The Laws Bk X, 2350 years ago. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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RDFish is an intellectual fraud. A pretender.Mung
July 20, 2014
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KF #149: Are you winding us up ? I can never tell.Graham2
July 20, 2014
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RDF: Pardon, I think you are projecting there. SB has quite plainly and repeatedly argued to the foundational role of the self evident principles of natural law based morality. Elsewhere, he has argued to the primacy of plumbline rules of right reason that are also self-evident. Above, he points to the permanent character of truth, but the temporary one of error. There is also such a thing as that humans are morally governed creatures, not brute animals that must be controlled by bridle and bit. Thus, there is the issue of reform based on first amelioration and regulation; instructions and limits that restrain, counsel and soften the hearts of members of a community, leading onward to gradual abolition of increasingly evident damaging evils that have become rooted in a culture, through the impact of legitimacy -- as opposed to its counterfeit, manipulation driven by agitprop resting on distortions, misrepresentations and outright lies such as are all too common in our day. The alternative to reform rooted in genuine legitimacy is imposition by raw force, by unaccountable elites or by revolutionary dictators or committees of public safety, so-called. The history of such exercises in might and manipulation make 'right' should tell us something. Even do-gooder over-reaches such as Prohibition have something to tell us on the unintended consequences of premature, forced reform attempts. I suggest you need to think again. KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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DK, 136: Thank you for laying out your view:
what is “self-evident” to one person is not necessarily self-evident to another person, I find that arguments to “self-evidence” are unwarranted.
I hear your complaint. However, I must plead: let us refresh our memories. For, as Aquinas pointed out things are self-evident in two distinct senses. First, in themselves as one who understands will see that X is not only so, but must be so on pain of patent absurdity -- the objective sense. In the second sense, someone who does not understand may well fail to perceive with insight. Where this becomes interesting is that there are two different failures of understanding. Primary, as someone may be ignorant. Secondary, as one may be committed to a distorted scheme of thought that blocks seeing straight. And so, such a person will cling to absurdity. In this case, we can observe DK . . . with all due respect but making fair comment, that you are willing to go along with the moral sense that something is wrong, but are unwilling to concede its compelling force. Further, you demand to dismiss even self evident truth if it does not fit in with your preferred schemes of thought. In short, you want in the end something that leads straight to moral anarchy resolved through might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth.' By way of contrast to your view, I think Hooker as cited by Locke in his 2nd treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2, has somewhat to say to us:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Merah's moral failure . . . and he had several obvious opportunities to think had he not been blinded by hate, out of control anger and power . . . was that he refused to accept that the shy little girl he chased down, grabbed by the hair and tried to shoot was fundamentally the same as him as a human person made in the same image of God. So, he found his second gun and murdered an obviously innocent little child who had no power to fight him off and no eloquence to persuade him to stop in his bloody course. It seems, all he could see -- in a horrific echo of (forgive me for giving painfully unwelcome but material context) the Gharqad Tree Hadith that is cited in Clause 7 of the Hamas covenant -- was that the young miss in front of him was committing what to him was the capital crime of breathing while being Jewish. That is the same fundamentally horrific story that in the past century has led one dictator after another to cloak themselves in the lab coats of science and commit mass murder. And, DK, it is that same failure that, with all due respect, lies beneath your dismissal of the self evident. Well does Paul, writing to Philemon, say to our civilisation and world, in words that became the motto of the antislavery societies:
2 to Apphia our sister . . . . 15 For perhaps it was for this reason that [Onesimus] was separated from you [Philemon] for a little while, so that you would have him back eternally, 16 no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, as a dear brother. He is especially so to me, and even more so to you now, both humanly speaking and in the Lord. 17 Therefore if you regard me as a partner, accept him as you would me. 18 Now if he has defrauded you of anything or owes you anything, charge what he owes to me.
These words were penned by a man chained to a Roman soldier, knowing that flight from slavery, harbouring of fugitive slaves and slave uprisings faced the ruthless, often merciless might of Imperial Rome. Mere miles from where he was writing, Rome had nailed up thousands of slaves who had risen up with Spartacus, literally lining a road with their crosses. So, he pointed to that which was true, and was necessarily true on pain of absurdity: Apphia our sister, Onesimus our brother. As in, "Am I not a man and a brother . . . Am I not a woman and a sister" Yes, DK, we may not understand the self evident to be self-evident. But, we must then ask ourselves, are we failing the test, pons asinorum? And if so, why? KFkairosfocus
July 20, 2014
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Hi StephenB, Ok, this particular exchange with you has revealed even more clearly than before that you will say simply anything - no matter how outlandish - to defend your beliefs and avoid admitting your errors. You are the only person I have ever known to claim that beauty is an objective attribute. Everyone else knows that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which means it is subjective. (Yes, that really is what that aphorism means - just type that phrase into Google and click the first link). Honestly, every schoolkid knows what that means, yet you refuse to admit that beauty is subjective. Then you start making up crazy rules to support your position, such as "'is' refers to objective being"... except when it doesn't. What rulebook are you using for these ridiculous assertions? The StephenB make-it-up-as-you-go rulebook, obviously. And then you declare that "delicious" is subjective by definition, but "funny" is objective. You are just pulling this nonsense out of thin air. While your blunders regarding objectivity are definitely good for a laugh, your bizarre stand on Biblical morality is a bit less amusing.
The Bible does not “condone” (your word) slavery. It takes note of its existence and regulates it so that it will not become chatel slavery.
This is just scary. In your view, the Bible is the sole infallible guide to objectively correct morality for all of humanity. And yet it fails to condemn the selling of one's children, the rape of one's enemies' wives, and all sorts of other acts that are incredibly morally offensive. You can't even bring yourself to deal with the issue - trying to dodge it by drawing distinctions between different sorts of slavery! Just face the facts, Stephen: Either you condemn the selling of one's children for money (or raping ones' enemies, etc) or you don't. If you condemn these acts, you must admit that the Bible is not an objective guide to morality, and that you need to rely on your moral intuition instead. If you do not condemn these acts, you reveal yourself to be a morally reprehensible person. Which is it, Stephen? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 20, 2014
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@StephenB:
Beauty is a function of symmetry and proportion. Ask any informed person. The perception of beauty is in the beholder, but the beauty itself is in the thing beheld. That is why all leading men and women in the movies are beautiful. The beholder simply recognizes that fact. His perception does not make them beautiful.
The beauty-analogy might be a solution to define objective moral laws into existence: - Moral is what most people seem to percept as moral. - Amoral is what most people seem to percept as amoral.JWTruthInLove
July 19, 2014
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RDFish:
You [StephenB] insist on calling moral intuition a “preference” even though I’ve explained repeatedly that it is an abiding, involuntary conviction. Mung:
Why not just claim to be compelled by moral compulsion?
How does this "abiding, involuntary conviction" compel you to act, or not act?
Mung
July 19, 2014
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Dionisio: Oh dear. Incoherent ? How so ?Graham2
July 19, 2014
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Graham2 @ 12 Barry, as I asked in the last thread, could you give us your version ? What do you think enables us to act morally ?
What do YOU mean by ‘morally’?
Graham2 @ 105 What do I mean by ‘moral’. The usual meaning, I think. If something is ‘wrong’, we say it is ‘morally’ wrong, or ‘unethical’ etc etc. They all mean the same thing. Adding the word ‘moral’ doesn’t really add anything.
What do you mean by “if something is ‘wrong’”? How can you tell right from wrong? Is your measuring standard personal, subjective, relative? If you deem something is wrong, does it necessarily mean that everybody else must consider it to be wrong too? In the absence of absolute standards, can something you consider to be wrong be considered to be right by others?
Graham2 @ 109 I think the concept of objective morality is simply absurd.
Why do you think so?
Graham2 @ 114 What I meant was the supernatural in all its forms is absurd.
How do you know that? Are you absolutely certain?
Graham2 @ 137 Am I certain about the supernatural ? To exactly the same extent that you don’t believe in fairies.
Is that your best answer to the given questions? What do you understand by ‘natural’ and ‘supernatural’? BTW, I appreciate you have not run away from our polite discussion, unlike Mark Frank and RDFish, who apparently ignored my simple questions in this thread completely. However, so far you have not been able to produce a coherent answer to my simple questions. But that could happen to anyone. Just try to understand the questions before answering them more clearly. Thanks.
Graham2 @ 139 Yes, I agree its frustrating when the other avoids awkward questions. Regarding the meanings of ‘natural’ etc, this has wasted so much time here. I regard ‘supernatural’ as that which we cant detect, like gods, spirits, angels etc. The ‘natural’ is of course everything else.
Your incoherent answers seem to reveal your motives for arguing. It's obvious you're not interested in a serious discussion. I don't want to squander my limited time. Bye.Dionisio
July 19, 2014
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141 is for Daniel King.StephenB
July 19, 2014
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SB: With respect to Sharia law, Islam does not accept the natural moral law or the inherent dignity of the human person, and it claims that God can change his mind about what is right and wrong.
That’s very interesting. Do you have some references to support your claims?
Qur’an 2:106, 16:101: “When We substitute one revelation for another, “ ” and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), “ In one section, for example, the Qur’an says that wine has “some profit” for mankind, but in another, it teaches that wine is an abomination.
Parenthetically, don’t you agree that God changes his mind about what is right or wrong when the Old and New Testaments are compared?
In what way?StephenB
July 19, 2014
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RDFish
Ok, everybody – forget everything you’ve heard about beauty being in the eye of the beholder. StephenB has decreed all that is wrong! According to Stephen’s new take on beauty, it is a perfectly objective quality, and everyone always agrees about who is beautiful and who isn’t!
Beauty is a function of symmetry and proportion. Ask any informed person. The perception of beauty is in the beholder, but the beauty itself is in the thing beheld. That is why all leading men and women in the movies are beautiful. The beholder simply recognizes that fact. His perception does not make them beautiful.
In fact, according to Stephen, whenever you use the word “is”, you are specifying an objective quality.
In the context of morality, yes, that is always the case. It is also true in most other (though not all) contexts. In the context of subjective vs. objective, or in the context of perception vs. reality, "seems" always refers to the former; "is" always refers to the latter. Clearly, that is the case with respect to the phrase "is faulty."
You might think that if you say you think some particular joke is funny, you would be expressing your subjective opinion on the matter.
If a joke makes people laugh or smile, then it is funny. The proper use of the word "seems" would apply to your misguided attempt to write "ha ha ha ha" after you have been refuted. It "seems" funny to you, but it isn't really funny at all. Do you understand the difference?
If you find that a dish is delicious, then you are stating that everyone will find this dish delicious – and objectively so!
This is a different context. Delicious or tasty is, by definition, subjective, unlike beauty or fault, both of which are objective. A meal is not objectively tasty. Thus, the context has clearly changed. On the other hand, you claim that any morality that conflicts with your morality IS faulty, when it only SEEMS faulty to you. Do you understand your error?
Now, maybe it’s just me, but no matter what sort of servitude we’re talking about, this offends my moral intuitions in a very serious way.
The Bible does not "condone" (your word) slavery. It takes note of its existence and regulates it so that it will not become chatel slavery. Meanwhile, because it does not approve of slavery in any form, it sets the stage for its demise. The Bible has never taught that slavery is acceptable. It may SEEM that way to you, but that is not the way it IS. Do you understand the difference in usage here? If so, you can start applying it to your claims about morality. You claim that any morality that conflicts with your morality IS faulty, when it only SEEMS faulty to you.StephenB
July 19, 2014
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Dionisio: Yes, I agree its frustrating when the other avoids awkward questions. Regarding the meanings of 'natural' etc, this has wasted so much time here. I regard 'supernatural' as that which we cant detect, like gods, spirits, angels etc. The 'natural' is of course everything else.Graham2
July 19, 2014
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Graham2 @ 114 What I meant was the supernatural in all its forms is absurd.
How do you know that? Are you absolutely certain?
Graham2 @ 137 Dionisio: Am I certain about the supernatural ? To exactly the same extent that you don’t believe in fairies.
Is that your best answer to the given questions? What do you understand by 'natural' and 'supernatural'? BTW, I appreciate you have not run away from our polite discussion, unlike Mark Frank and RDFish, who apparently ignored my simple questions in this thread completely. However, so far you have not been able to produce a coherent answer to my simple questions. But that could happen to anyone. Just try to understand the questions before answering them more clearly. Thanks.Dionisio
July 19, 2014
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Dionisio: Am I certain about the supernatural ? To exactly the same extent that you don't believe in fairies.Graham2
July 19, 2014
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