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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
If you disagree that this act is self-evidently wrong, and/or that had we been present it would have been our self-evident duty to protect this child from her tormentor, kindly explain to us why.
Since what is "self-evident" to one person is not necessarily self-evident to another person, I find that arguments to "self-evidence" are unwarranted. Of course, you and I agree on the moral judgment of this event and our moral duty to have intervened. But that's because we share a congruent culture, and we have acquired our moral judgments from our life experiences, especially during childhood.lDaniel King
July 19, 2014
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With respect to Sharia law, Islam does not accept the natural moral law or the inherent dignity of the human person, and it claims that God can change his mind about what is right and wrong.
That's very interesting. Do you have some references to support your claims? Parenthetically, don't you agree that God changes his mind about what is right or wrong when the Old and New Testaments are compared?Daniel King
July 19, 2014
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Hi StephenB, Ah, bravo! You are doubling down on what must be the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen presented on this forum, and this forum isn't exactly devoid of ridiculous arguments in the first place. Ok, everybody - forget everything you've heard about beauty being in the eye of the beholder. StephenB has decreed all that is wrong! According to Stephen's new take on beauty, it is a perfectly objective quality, and everyone always agrees about who is beautiful and who isn't! In fact, according to Stephen, whenever you use the word "is", you are specifying an objective quality. You might think that if you say you think some particular joke is funny, you would be expressing your subjective opinion on the matter. Not so, according to StephenB here! No, you are in fact making a declaration of objective fact, and that you expect every person on Earth to agree that this joke is in fact funny! If you find that a dish is delicious, then you are stating that everyone will find this dish delicious - and objectively so! Again, let's see what Stephen thinks about the word is:
”Is” refers to objective being; “seems” refers to subjective perception.
So you have to use the word "seems" to indicate that you are merely expressing a subjective opinion. So next time, tell your hostess "Thank you for dinner - this food seems delicious!". And I must repeat Mark Frank's hilarious example:
MF: Stephenb has opened up a whole new chat-up line. “how beautiful you seem today my dear – let me check your body proportions to make sure I am right”
Hahahahahaha! Come on, StephenB - even you can see this is a perfectly ridiculous corner you've backed yourself into. Do you expect anyone - even the most diehard ID defenders - to agree with you that the word "is" indicates that you are stating a necessarily objective proposition? It really is going to be more embarrassing for you to stick to this laughable position than to simply admit you took a wrong turn here. And then we come to Stephen's belief that his noble stand against selling children is echoed by his favored source of objective morality, the Bible.
The Bible: If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.
That sounds to me, objectively speaking, as though it means that men can sell their daughters as servants, and she is not to go free as male servants do. Now, maybe it's just me, but no matter what sort of servitude we're talking about, this offends my moral intuitions in a very serious way. I couldn't care less if it is "chatel slavery" or any other type of servitude - parents don't get to sell their kids for money, ever. So Stephen, you can either defend this loathsome practice, in which case you deny the objective truth of unchanging Biblical morality, or you can condone this practice, in which case you show yourself to be a horrible person. Which do you choose? And I know you know there are plenty more Biblical quotes about rape and murder and other things that good people nowadays find morally repugnant. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 19, 2014
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Insofar as not everything in some of these books faithfully reflects the objective moral law, one would expect discrepancies.
Then what book or other authority faithfully renders The Objective Moral Law?Daniel King
July 19, 2014
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SB: The subject matter on the table is that objective morality is unchanging. DK
How long has that been going on? There seem to be some discrepancies between the Code of Hammurabi, Mosaic Law, the New Testament dispensation, Sharia, etc.
Insofar as not everything in some of these books faithfully reflects the objective moral law, one would expect discrepancies. With respect to Sharia law, Islam does not accept the natural moral law or the inherent dignity of the human person, and it claims that God can change his mind about what is right and wrong. The objective natural moral law is not like that at all. It is consistent with reason. The point is that the objective moral law does not change over time. If it did, then either the earlier version or the latter version would be false and there would be no way of knowing which one was true. Error changes; truth doesn't. It isn't reasonable to ask someone to accept and follow a changing moral code.StephenB
July 19, 2014
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Pardon, the Plato clip from The Laws, Bk X is in 120 - 121.kairosfocus
July 19, 2014
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DK: There is in fact a well known core of agreement regarding basic moral principles that is quite trans-cultural. Cf. the appendix to Lewis' Mere Christianity for abundant illustrative cases. You may wish to start with something fairly simple: kindly, tell us whether the following case, as reported by Wikipedia regarding an incident with an eight-year old girl in Toulouse France (and quite similar to the Columbine case), shows that there is a mere chaos of moral opinions, or whether it illustrates someone gone badly wrong:
[Mohammed Merah] chased an 8-year-old girl [Miriam Monsonego, daughter of the principal of a Jewish day school in Toulouse, France Merah attacked in IIRC, 2012 . . . ] into the courtyard, caught her by her hair and raised a gun to shoot her. The gun jammed at this point and he changed weapons from what the police identified as a 9mm pistol to a .45 calibre gun, and shot the girl in her temple at point-blank range. The gunman then retrieved his moped and drove off.
If you disagree that this act is self-evidently wrong, and/or that had we been present it would have been our self-evident duty to protect this child from her tormentor, kindly explain to us why. KF PS: Onlookers, the tactic of trying to cast various moral opinions against one another as if that demonstrates that all that there is is the relativity of views, backed up by might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth' is a manifestation of the problem I highlighted in comments 119 - 122 above [studiously ignored by evo mat advocates . . . ], noting in 121 - 122 particularly how Plato exposed the essential amorality and invitation to nihilism of evolutionary materialism 2350 years ago in The Laws, Bk X.kairosfocus
July 19, 2014
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StephenB:
The subject matter on the table is that objective morality is unchanging.
How long has that been going on? There seem to be some discrepancies between the Code of Hammurabi, Mosaic Law, the New Testament dispensation, Sharia, etc.Daniel King
July 19, 2014
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RDFish
Anyway, how would YOU resolve the conflict? Convince the torturer he’s wrong?
It isn't a question of "convincing" the torturer/murderer. It is a question of establishing social conventions and civil laws based on objective moral principles so that everyone is held accountable to them, both RDFish, the torturer murderer, and even those who are powerful. When person A's subjective morality comes into conflict with person B's subjective morality, the only solution to the conflict is the objective moral law. It's much more reliable than an instance of RDFish's subjective intuitions being offended, which is irrelevant to all social problems. SB:”Is” refers to objective being; “seems” refers to subjective perception. So, I repeat my question. Why do you use the term “is” faulty when you really mean “seems” faulty? Is it because you want to create the illusion of objective morality while arguing on behalf of subjective morality? Are you trying to mislead your audience?
Actually, you’ve just informed the audience that your argument has reached new lows of incoherence. The term “is”, as everyone can see, in no way indicates objective qualities.
Actually, I just presented a formal definition for the word "faulty," indicating that it points to an objective standard. As usual, you ignored the refutation. Now that you have been informed that the word "is" meets that standard and the word "seems" does not, I will assume that you are purposely misusing the language in order to mislead your audience. SB: Everyone agrees that a beautiful woman is beautiful
But the fact that everyone agrees torturing puppies is wrong doesn’t make that objective?
Of course it doesn't. You are confused as usual. The reason that everyone agrees that she is beautiful is because her beauty is an objective fact. The agreement follows the fact, not the other way around.
So all these qualities like “delicious” and “funny” and “pretty” – these are objective qualities that can be objectively determined? Do you have a “funny” meter? Really? Everyone agrees on what is funny? I can hardly wait to see how you try to squirm out of this one!
LOL: I am not the one who squirmed out of the clear meaning of the word "faulty" and began introducing irrelevant topics like beauty, which by the way is not even close to being analogous to funny and delicious. Each time you are refuted, you go looking for distractions. At least try to be creative if you are going to run away from an argument. Would you now like to discuss your perverse use of the world "faulty," which is the topic under discussion? Or, are you going to continue to evade and obfuscate?
Again, I instruct you that the word “is” does not convey “objective”. For you to deny this really does make you seem incredibly obtuse!!!
Obviously, you are not in a position to instruct anyone since you don't know the difference in meaning between "seems" and "is." Well, no, you do know by now, you just don't have enough intellectual integrity to say what needs to be said. What you should have said was this: When I said that the torturer/murderer's morality 'is' faulty, I didn't really mean that it IS faulty since I have no objective standard for determining what IS moral and what is not. What I should have said is that his morality "seems" faulty to me because it conflicts with my personal morality." That is what an honest person would say.
Sorry, but you’re just too funny today, and I can’t stop laughing at you.
Actually, your pattern is always the same. When I refute you, you panic and begin typing out ha ha ha ha! When you really get desperate, you claim victory, hoping someone will believe you. It's pathetic.
Good to hear that! The Bible does, however, (e.g. Exodus 21:7-11) so what do you have to say about that? Is it perhaps your subjective moral intuition that tells you the Bible is wrong in this case?
Again, we have the problem that you don't pay attention. Exodus 21 does not, in any way, condone chatel slavery. There is nothing wrong with indentured servitude if it is humane, that is, if it doesn't violate the inherent dignity of the human person. Of course, you don't believe that humans have inherent dignity, so your misguided protests make no sense. More serious, though, is the fact that, once again, you go searching for distractions. The subject matter on the table is that objective morality is unchanging. That is why it can serve as a fair arbitrator for conflicts in subjective moralities. By they way, I should also point out that you evaded that question as well. How should conflicts among subjective moralities be settled? I trust that you will not use the words "delicious" or "ha ha ha" in your answer.
You are doing very badly here, Stephen.
LOL Didn't I tell you that you would use your perennial trick of claiming victory after having been refuted at every turn? I knew it was going to happen even before it happened. You are so boringly predictable.StephenB
July 19, 2014
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@StephenB:
If you say Mary “is” beautiful, you are saying that she meets objective standards for beauty.
Yes, your personal objective standards.JWTruthInLove
July 19, 2014
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Mark, that seems very funny, but I need to check it against the divine objective comedy criteria before I decide to laugh.RDFish
July 19, 2014
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#123 RDFish Stephenb has opened up a whole new chat-up line. "how beautiful you seem today my dear - let me check your body proportions to make sure I am right"Mark Frank
July 19, 2014
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StephenB:
Isn’t there a difference between subjectively perceiving something as real and objectively knowing that it is real? When I recognize a tree as a tree, am I not making making contact with the objective reality of a tree? Isn’t it more than just perceiving it to be a tree?
That's an interesting question. I can see a difference between dreaming that I'm seeing a tree and actually seeing a tree when I'm awake. In the latter case, with the proviso that my cognition is not impaired, I see no reason to doubt that what I'm seeing is real, so I'm guessing that you have a more significant basis for posing your question. If it's a difference that you construe between "perceiving" and "recognizing," would you explain that difference?Daniel King
July 19, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: There is no final arbiter of who is correct. SB: So far, all you have said is that you prefer your morality over the morality of the torturer/murderer because you prefer it. However, he prefers his morality over yours because he prefers it. How should that conflict be resolved?
You insist on calling moral intuition a "preference" even though I've explained repeatedly that it is an abiding, involuntary conviction. I have also just explained for the nth+3 time that there is no ultimate arbiter of morality. Why can't you learn? Anyway, how would YOU resolve the conflict? Convince the torturer he's wrong?
Yes, it does. ”Is” refers to objective being; “seems” refers to subjective perception. So, I repeat my question. Why do you use the term “is” faulty when you really mean “seems” faulty? Is it because you want to create the illusion of objective morality while arguing on behalf of subjective morality? Are you trying to mislead your audience?
Actually, you've just informed the audience that your argument has reached new lows of incoherence. The term "is", as everyone can see, in no way indicates objective qualities. Food is delicious (you may subjectively disagree). A roller coaster is fun (you may subjectively disagree). It is hilarious that you don't understand this.
If you say Mary “is” beautiful, you are saying that she meets objective standards for beauty, such as bodily proportions. Everyone recognizes a beautiful woman as a beautiful woman.
HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahah. That is among the dumbest and most hysterically funny things you've said here, which is saying a great deal. Everyone agrees on who is a beautiful woman? So that is objective? But the fact that everyone agrees torturing puppies is wrong doesn't make that objective? Hahahahahaha. So all these qualities like "delicious" and "funny" and "pretty" - these are objective qualities that can be objectively determined? Do you have a "funny" meter? Really? Everyone agrees on what is funny? I can hardly wait to see how you try to squirm out of this one!
Again, I ask the question. Why do you use the term “is faulty” when you really mean “seems faulty.”
Again, I instruct you that the word "is" does not convey "objective". For you to deny this really does make you seem incredibly obtuse!!!
Getting a little hysterical, aren’t you?
Sorry, but you're just too funny today, and I can't stop laughing at you.
No, I don’t condone the selling of children.
Good to hear that! The Bible does, however, (e.g. Exodus 21:7-11) so what do you have to say about that? Is it perhaps your subjective moral intuition that tells you the Bible is wrong in this case? You are doing very badly here, Stephen. Time to regroup. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 19, 2014
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PS: The issue of the self-moved first cause surfaces the question of mind and the point that things that are moved and move others with no initiative are secondary and not root points out what so many so violently objected to in the past few weeks: computation is not contemplation. Neither ball and disk integrators nor digital processors not neural networks based on accumulated inputs triggering outputs when a threshold is passed, can adequately account for the self-moved. But, a view that rejects that, is then locked up in explaining away morality as well as rationality and freedom of responsible choice. Which is what we see so clearly laid out above.kairosfocus
July 19, 2014
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F/N 3: Let us continue as Plato speaks through his characters in dialogue: _______________ >> Ath. Then, by Heaven, we have discovered the source of this vain opinion of all those physical investigators; and I would have you examine their arguments with the utmost care, for their impiety is a very serious matter; they not only make a bad and mistaken use of argument, but they lead away the minds of others: that is my opinion of them. Cle. You are right; but I should like to know how this happens. Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular. Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir. Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods. Cle. Still I do not understand you. Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul's kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? Cle. Certainly. Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind. Cle. But why is the word "nature" wrong? Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise. [[ . . . .] Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [ --> Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> ________________ So, the issues at stake at worldview level, and their consequences, have long been on the table. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2014
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F/N 2: Long-time onlookers will know that for years -- with but few exceptions {KN, for example] -- evolutionary materialism advocates in and around UD have consistently side-stepped or ignored the following, from Plato's The Laws, c 360 BC. Which lays out the worldview roots and consequences quite plainly . . . before going on to a shocking, first on the record cosmological design inference to a good soul as the author of cosmic reality. Part 1, where we see Plato in the voices of the Athenian Stranger and Clenias: ______________ >> Ath. At Athens there are tales preserved in writing which the virtue of your state, as I am informed, refuses to admit. They speak of the Gods in prose as well as verse, and the oldest of them tell of the origin of the heavens and of the world, and not far from the beginning of their story they proceed to narrate the birth of the Gods, and how after they were born they behaved to one another [--> Pagan gods of course are not to be equated to the God of theism] . Whether these stories have in other ways a good or a bad influence, I should not like to be severe upon them, because they are ancient; but, looking at them with reference to the duties of children to their parents, I cannot praise them, or think that they are useful, or at all true. [ --> Notice Plato's own carefully stated skepticisms and moral concerns regarding classical paganism.] Of the words of the ancients I have nothing more to say; and I should wish to say of them only what is pleasing to the Gods. But as to our younger generation and their wisdom, I cannot let them off when they do mischief. For do but mark the effect of their words: when you and I argue for the existence of the Gods, and produce the sun, moon, stars, and earth, claiming for them a divine being, if we would listen to the aforesaid philosophers we should say that they are earth and stones only, which can have no care at all of human affairs, and that all religion is a cooking up of words and a make-believe . . . . [[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [ --> i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [--> Evolutionary materialism is ancient, it used to dress as a philosopher or a poet or a teacher, now, it likes to wear the lab coat] . . . . [[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [ --> Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . >> _________________ So, in every direction we go, we see Plato and Socrates [with Aristotle, Aquinas and others close behind] on their way back. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2014
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F/N: The thread above aptly illustrates the force of this, from the Psalms, where the Psalmist speaks in the implicit name and voice of God (and so also, godly wisdom):
Ps 32:8 I will instruct and teach you about how you should live. I will advise you as I look you in the eye. 9 Do not be like an unintelligent horse or mule, which will not obey you unless they are controlled by a bridle and bit. [NET]
That is, we have a forced, momentous worldview level choice:
ALT A: Acknowledge that we are under the moral government of OUGHT (and so there must be a foundational IS that properly grounds OUGHT), or else ALT B: Refuse to grant that there is such a ground of OUGHT, and reduce OUGHT to "might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth' . . . " -- amorality in short.
Where, of course, across centuries of contention, it has been quite clear that here is but one serious candidate to be an IS that bridges the is-ought gap by properly grounding OUGHT: the inherently good, creator God who is a necessary and maximally great being. The perceived "absurdity" of such a notion professed by G2 boils down to this: he and others of like ilk find this repugnant to their sense of and demand for autonomy, not any real self-refuting contradiction or community level disintegration and infeasibility parallel to what would happen if say lying were to become the norm for and utterly dominant pattern of communication. (Even among Cretans, MOST communications must be truthful, or there would be no community of Cretans. But, proverbially, if they think they can get away with it . . . ) And in fact, it is quite evident that we are not hoses or mules that must be led about with bit and bridle, or carrot and stick. We, inescapably are morally governed creatures, as can be seen directly from the rhetorical twists and turns above as objectors to objectivity of OUGHT seek to . . . justify themselves. Oops. I think long time readers will remember how often it came up as an example of self evident moral truth, and ought that is TRUE on pain of absurdity, is: is is self-evidently true that (a) it is morally wrong and evil to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a young child, and (b) were we to come across such in progress, we are bound to try to do what we can to stop the Nero-like monster. As usual, there were duckings, dodges to the side, distractions twist-about attacks aplenty, but no answers that no that is not so that had any solid footing. Manifesting exactly the point that we are bound by OUGHT and it points to a world-foundational IS that grounds OUGHT. We assert rights, and we demand to be treated fairly, implying that those we object to are immoral, hypocritical, unfair . . . even, accusing God much less those who despite inevitable failings, try to serve him. Only to end up at the very same point. For, a right that is genuinely so -- and not merely a demand backed up by might and manipulation, that is genuinely binding, is nothing but a moral claim to other morally governed creatures to be respected, rooted in our inherent dignity as morally governed creatures. As the US DOI of 1776 so plainly said:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15 . . . the deep root of these claims], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
We can duck, dodge, twist about, accuse, etc etc all we want, we cannot get away from this choice, and the consequences that stem from our decision. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2014
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RDFish
There is no objectively knowable standard by which can judge moral actions. Instead, we each have abiding, involuntary moral intuitions, and according to moral intuitionism, these serve as the basis for moral judgement. If P judges Q to have faulty moral intuitions, what that means is that Q’s moral intuitions contradicts those of P. There is no final arbiter of who is correct.
So far, all you have said is that you prefer your morality over the morality of the torturer/murderer because you prefer it. However, he prefers his morality over yours because he prefers it. How should that conflict be resolved?
What? No, Stephen, the word “is” does not indicate objectivity
Yes, it does. ”Is” refers to objective being; “seems” refers to subjective perception. So, I repeat my question. Why do you use the term “is” faulty when you really mean “seems” faulty? Is it because you want to create the illusion of objective morality while arguing on behalf of subjective morality? Are you trying to mislead your audience?
If I say “Mary is beautiful” that does not imply that beauty is objectively measurable, now, does it? It would be downright weird to say “Mary seems beautiful”, wouldn’t it?
If you say Mary "is" beautiful, you are saying that she meets objective standards for beauty, such as bodily proportions. Everyone recognizes a beautiful woman as a beautiful woman. However, we are not discussing aesthetics. We are discussing a word "faulty," which by definition, indicates the failure to meet an objective standard. Faulty working badly or unreliably because of imperfections. "a car with faulty brakes" synonyms: malfunctioning, broken, damaged, defective, not working, out of order; More informalon the blink, acting up, kaput, bust, busted, on the fritz "a faulty electric blanket" antonyms: working (of reasoning and other mental processes) mistaken or misleading because of flaws. "faulty logic" synonyms: defective, flawed, unsound, inaccurate, incorrect, erroneous, fallacious, wrong More "her logic is faulty" antonyms: sound having or displaying weaknesses. "her character was faulty" Again, I ask the question. Why do you use the term "is faulty" when you really mean "seems faulty." SB: Indeed, you have not explained why any moral code at all could possibly be faulty. This is a serious gap in your philosophy.
I already said I’ve explained that for the last time. Just re-read this very post for your answer.
No, you explain how you think that others' morality "seems faulty," but you incorrectly use the words "is faulty" when you do the explaining. Why do you do that?
Really, that’s your position? I would have guessed something else. Anyway, am I to think you condone selling one’s children into servitude, or enslaving the children of theives? Or beating one’s slaves? In that case, you and I have very different moral intuitions, because I think these acts are just hideous. Yes, you can argue that your moral intuitions are correct and mine are wrong, but I’m sure about what my moral intuitions say about the matter.
Getting a little hysterical, aren’t you? No, I don’t condone the selling of children. There are many kinds of slavery, some of which are not morally unobjectionable. Chatel slavery is not one of them. Notice how you stray from the original point, which was the fact that objective morality doesn’t change. When all else fails, you move the goalposts. Then, of course, we have the problem that you claimed that the Bible "condones slavery" without defining your terms. Is this another example of your proclivity to misuse words in order to create a false impression? .StephenB
July 19, 2014
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Graham2 @ 114
What I meant was the supernatural in all its forms is absurd.
How do you know that? Are you absolutely certain?Dionisio
July 19, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
SB: How do we know if our moral intuitions are “faulty” RDF: We cannot know, of course. SB: So, why did you say that the murderer/torturer’s subjective intuitions were “faulty,” if you don’t know what faulty means?
Really? You want me to explain this for the nth+1 time? I view the murderer/torturer's moral intuitions as faulty because they contradict mine. Why (and this is not a rhetorical question) are you unable to grasp this? You keep asking the same thing, over and over again, in all different ways: How do you know if something is actually right or wrong? I keep answering the same thing: When something aligns with my moral intuitions, I consider it to be right. Then you tell me it's an arbitrary preference, and I tell you it is an abiding and involuntary conviction. Then you ask me on what basis I think I can hold other people to my moral convictions, and I tell you my moral intuition compels me to intervene against immoral acts. Then you tell me that what is immoral for me isn't immoral for somebody else because they may have different moral intuitions, and I say I know that and so what - I still believe my morality is correct and contradictory moral codes are faulty. Then you say how can I tell which moral codes are faulty and I tell you... (can you guess at this point? no? good grief) ... I tell you they're the ones that contradict my moral intuition. And we start all over again.
Why do you use the language of objective morality (is faulty) when you really mean subjective intuitions (seems faulty to you).
Actually, the term "faulty" does not come from moral theory. In any case, as I've made clear n+2 times now, I am arguing for moral subjectivism, where morality is deemed to be faulty when it contradicts one's moral intuitions.
Part of the problem is that you use the word “is,” which indicates objectivity, when it would be more appropriate to use the word “seems,” which indicates subjectivity.
What? No, Stephen, the word "is" does not indicate objectivity. If I say "Mary is beautiful" that does not imply that beauty is objectively measurable, now, does it? It would be downright weird to say "Mary seems beautiful", wouldn't it? How about "That comedian seems funny!" or "This steak seems delicious!"? Hahahahahaha.
You cannot blame me for you equivocations.
Hahahaha that's funny. As you can see, the language I've used by no means indicates objectivity, so I guess that was at the root of your inability to grasp what I've been saying. Hopefully we can move on now.
In any case, you still have not addressed the argument on the table. Why should your subjective intuitions be preferred over those of the torturer/murderer when, by your own admission, you don’t know which subjective moral codes are faulty and which ones are not.
Really? You need it again? All right, but this is the last time, OK? There is no objectively knowable standard by which can judge moral actions. Instead, we each have abiding, involuntary moral intuitions, and according to moral intuitionism, these serve as the basis for moral judgement. If P judges Q to have faulty moral intuitions, what that means is that Q's moral intuitions contradicts those of P. There is no final arbiter of who is correct. You reject this philosophy because it offends your moral intuition that this could be the case. How, you wonder, can there be no objective way to decide who is right? That's just terrible! That's...that's... not right! But who are you to say what is right? You think your subjective religious faith somehow trumps my subjective moral theory, but there's nothing about your moral beliefs that is any more objectively true than anyone else's. You don't have any magic that makes your particular beliefs objectively true whilst people with different religious beliefs - or no religious beliefs - are just wrong. It is a perfect hypocrisy on the face of it, since you accuse me putting my moral intuitions before others.
Indeed, you have not explained why any moral code at all could possibly be faulty. This is a serious gap in your philosophy.
I already said I've explained that for the last time. Just re-read this very post for your answer.
There are many different kinds of slavery, among which we could include debt bondage, indentured servitude, and chatel slavery. The Bible tolerates the first two, but not the third, which is the only one that is unqualifiedly immoral.
Really, that's your position? I would have guessed something else. Anyway, am I to think you condone selling one's children into servitude, or enslaving the children of theives? Or beating one's slaves? In that case, you and I have very different moral intuitions, because I think these acts are just hideous. Yes, you can argue that your moral intuitions are correct and mine are wrong, but I'm sure about what my moral intuitions say about the matter.
Notice, though, that you have no standard to make these kind of evaluations since the only thing you have going for you are your subjective intuitions.
My standard is my moral intuition. That's all you have going for you too. If the Bible told you it was OK to torture a puppy, would you agree? If the Bible told you it was OK to rape and enslave your enemies, would you agree?
You cannot even say that chatel slavery “is” wrong. You can only say that it “seems” wrong, but you don’t know why it is wrong.
Re-read the part about where you got the implications of "is" all confused. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
July 19, 2014
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Compelled by moral intuition. Marvelous! Why not just claim to be compelled by moral compulsion? intuition: the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning. What then, is a moral intuition? How does an unconscious understanding become a compulsion?Mung
July 18, 2014
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Dionisio: What I meant was the supernatural in all its forms is absurd. If you accept God/angels/devils/soul/etc/etc then anything is possible. Objective morality is just another face of this nonsense. Regarding objective morality in particular, if it exists, it is, as I said, very elusive. Why are we bedevilled with endless, endless arguments on moral questions ? Abortion/gay issues/politics/etc. And why are these questions never settled ? Why are we still raking over the same coals 2000 years later ? If objective morality exists, it is very elusive, and even if it exists, and even if it manifests itself in some individuals, how can we identify those individuals ? Maybe I am the only person on the planet that has it all. Im in perfect communication with objective morality, and everyone else is in a poor reception area. How can we tell ? And the Catholic Church must be in a permanent tunnel.Graham2
July 18, 2014
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Graham2 @ 109
I think the concept of objective morality is simply absurd.
Why do you think so?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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Graham2 @ 409
I think the concept of objective morality is simply absurd.
Why do you think so?Dionisio
July 18, 2014
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"Why are you afraid to answer these questions? Because you would have to concede that your morality is subjective too." False. I am not afraid to answer anything, you don't even know whether I have morality at all. This is nothing but a waste of time because you refuse to accept the fact that your position is full of contradictions and it completely useless. If someone follows their moral intuition and somebody else comes along and says "what you are doing is wrong because it contradicts my moral intuition" the first person has no reason to stop. A person's moral intuition might be considered 'faulty' according to one group, but another group would believe the exact opposite. If a person has faulty moral intuition, then they are being immoral for following their moral intuition, but they are also immoral for not following it because moral intuition is all we have. If someone says that my moral intuition is 'faulty' and that I am a psychopath, I can just ignore them and find someone else who agrees with me.Jul3s
July 18, 2014
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Daniel King
Is it not that case that a person experiences objective reality only through perceptions?
Isn't there a difference between subjectively perceiving something as real and objectively knowing that it is real? When I recognize a tree as a tree, am I not making making contact with the objective reality of a tree? Isn't it more than just perceiving it to be a tree?StephenB
July 18, 2014
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Dionisio: There is either an objective standard of morality or there isn't. If there is, the discussion is over. If there isn't, its all subjective. I think the concept of objective morality is simply absurd. Even if it did exist, it is remarkably elusive. This leave us with a moral standard that is entirely subjective. Its messy, contradictory, frustratingly difficult to pin down, but then that's exactly what we see around us, its how the world is. Perhaps you have noticed. Eg: slavery was considered quite OK for many years, now it isn't. Why the change ? Was everyone right then but wrong now ? wrong then but right now ? How can you tell ? The answer is you cant. Its not a nice answer, but its how the world works.Graham2
July 18, 2014
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RDFish
Strange as it may be, it is the human condition. I have been utterly consistent, despite your ridiculous strawmen and attempts to conjure up inconsistencies on my part.
Part of the problem is that you use the word “is,” which indicates objectivity, when it would be more appropriate to use the word “seems,” which indicates subjectivity. You cannot blame me for you equivocations. In any case, you still have not addressed the argument on the table. Why should your subjective intuitions be preferred over those of the torturer/murderer when, by your own admission, you don’t know which subjective moral codes are faulty and which ones are not. Indeed, you have not explained why any moral code at all could possibly be faulty. This is a serious gap in your philosophy.StephenB
July 18, 2014
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SB: Of course, all of this begs the question: How do we know if our moral intuitions are “faulty” (or, for that matter, psychopathic) if we have only our subjective and varying moral intuitions to guide us. RDFish
We cannot know, of course.
So, why did you say that the murderer/torturer's subjective intuitions were "faulty," if you don't know what faulty means? What you really mean is that they seem "faulty to you,"just as your intuitions seem faulty to him. Why do you use the language of objective morality (is faulty) when you really mean subjective intuitions (seems faulty to you). It requires no more space to use the word "seems" than the word "is."
And here you go, completely off the rails.
Apologies. I misread Phineas comment ("requirements") as yours. SB: Nevertheless, you also insist that we have nothing but our subjective intuitions, which may be faulty, to evaluate the legitimacy of our subjective intuitions. This is a very strange doctrine. Strange as it may be, it is the human condition. I have been utterly consistent, despite your ridiculous strawmen and attempts to conjure up inconsistencies on my part. Part of the problem is that you use the word "is," which indicates objectivity, when it would be more appropriate to use the word "seems," which indicates subjectivity. You cannot blame me for you equivocations. In any case, you still have not addressed the argument on the table. Why should your subjective intuitions be preferred over those of the torturer/murderer when, by your own admission, you don't know which subjective moral codes are faulty and which ones are not. Indeed, you have not explained why any moral code at all could possibly be faulty. This is a serious gap in your philosophy.
Now, tell me why you think the unchanging moral code of the Bible was right to condone slavery.
There are many different kinds of slavery, among which we could include debt bondage, indentured servitude, and chatel slavery. The Bible tolerates the first two, but not the third, which is the only one that is unqualifiedly immoral. Notice, though, that you have no standard to make these kind of evaluations since the only thing you have going for you are your subjective intuitions. You cannot even say that chatel slavery "is" wrong. You can only say that it "seems" wrong, but you don't know why it is wrong.StephenB
July 18, 2014
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