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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
niwrad, OK, so now you're saying that 'organization' doesn't have to be injected after all. It can arise spontaneously in a system that has the necessary 'potentiality'. Could you revise and restate your proposed second law of organization?phoenix
April 6, 2015
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P1. Configuration multiplicity provides the basis for statistical thermodynamics. P2. Statistical thermodynamics provides the rationale behind why 2LOT exists. P3. If configuration entropy is apparently violated, then statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated. P4. If statistical thermodynamics is apparently violated then the foundation of our understanding of why 2LOT is true is apparently violated.
Configuration of what? The definition of configuration entropy may not be universally accepted. If by configuration one means "position and momentum" as used by the Lioville theorem and Gibb's type formulation of statistical thermodynamics, then I should point out that is a more a classical mechanics formulation of statistical thermodynamics which is strictly then only an approximation. These microstates (position and momentum) change with temperature and pressure (if dealing with a gas). If by configuration, one means something to include "heads/tails" configuration of coins, then this is clearly NOT covered by statistical thermodynamics. Example: changing temperature changes the number of thermodynamic microstates of 500 fair coins, however the number of heads/tails microstates does not change with temperature changes. That's the other thing, if we're talking thermodynamics, a coherent definition of entropy ought to relate temperature to entropy. All the more reason to decouple design type microstates from thermodynamics. Worse, even in ID literature the heads/tails configuration doesn't change the entropy score! 500 fair coins heads has the same design space entropy as 500 fair coins with a random pattern. Until one defines configuration entropy in a more precise way and one that isn't idiosyncratic, then the above quotation isn't workable as a proposition.scordova
April 6, 2015
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phoenix In a tree (as any organism) the organization is injected in the seed as a potentiality which will be developing and operating during all its living and growing. The system is frotloaded with all the germinal functionalities necessary to its future life. IOW there is no need the designer... load software from a CD-ROM into the tree when it grows (to use the computer metaphor all understand). All the activities of the tree are scheduled in advance and a lot of recover processes are pre-programmed from the start and ready to run depending on the triggers of the environmental conditions. In general biology is eminently the realm of cybernetic organizational frontloading.niwrad
April 6, 2015
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KF,
Piotr and phoenix, you have had reasonable and specific answers that focus the concern on the assumed spontaneous origin of cell based life nanotech [blah blah blah...]
We are looking for answers to our actual questions. 1. Does evolution violate the second law? Yes or no? 2. Does OOL violate the second law? Yes or no? 3. Does life violate the second law? Yes or no? Once you've actually answered the questions, feel free to justify and elaborate on your answers.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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Box, I am still waiting for a response to this:
However — believe it or not — he’s [Box is] now claiming that organisms have a special power that allows their particles to defy the second law:
If an organism has no existence in and of itself – no causal powers in and of itself – why then don’t the particles, which constitute the organism, act in accordance to the 2nd law, as they do at the moment of death and thereafter? What force prevents the particles in motion from doing what comes natural?
This is nonsense, of course. Organisms don’t violate the second law. Any local entropy decrease is compensated for by increases in the entropy of the surroundings, and this is just as true inside organisms as outside.
Box, Do you understand that organisms do not violate the second law?phoenix
April 6, 2015
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Piotr and phoenix, you have had reasonable and specific answers that focus the concern on the assumed spontaneous origin of cell based life nanotech and on the similar origin of body plans, without relevant mass, energy and info flows coupled to energy converters and constructors to create the requisite FSCO/I. Where, by contrast I have given instances such as presently operating protein synthesis, where no such concerns obtain; including, I add as an edit, the existence of pre-programmed von Neumann kinematic self replicators integrated with the cells -- as opposed to the ultimate origin of such. I have pointed out that were spontaneous origin of requisite FSCO/I to be observed we would in effect have a refutation of 2LOT by perpetuum mobiles of the 2nd kind -- there being no indication that such highly contingent, wiring diagram specific configurations are produced by blind mechanical necessity by contrast with say freezing of water to form crystals of ice. If your claims point that way, then you need to provide empirical observations, not ideologically loaded narratives on the deep, unexplained -- oops, unobserved -- past of origins. You patently cannot and have not. Instead of responding appropriately, you have resorted to dismissive rhetoric and in the case of phoenix, to personalities. That ill-bred resort speaks volumes; and it reveals that you have no answer on the merits, but ideology fuelled rage and contempt for those who differ aplenty. A warning-sign. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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niwrad,
Per se 2nd_law_SM doesn’t prohibit injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source. Simply 2nd_law_SM states what is the spontaneous trend of isolated systems when no organization is injected.
No organization is being "injected" in my tree example:
Last, niwrad seems to believe that the second law forbids the spontaneous production of “organization”, which if true would mean that the second law is violated every time a tree takes disorganized substances and forms them into a nice, organized tree branch.
Since no organization is being "injected", the second law is being violated (according to your bogus reasoning).phoenix
April 6, 2015
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kairosfocus,
The matter is deeply conceptual and analytical in the face of much blatant misconception. A simplistic Y/N answer that does not specify just what I agree/disagree with would be worse than useless.
A braver soul than you would answer 'yes' or 'no' and explain why.phoenix
April 6, 2015
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as to: "I fail to see why quantum entanglement,, should require Quantum Hoodoo Magic,," perhaps you know something about 'spooky action at a distance' that Einstein didn't that renders quantum non-locality less mysterious than he thought it was?
Quantum Entanglement – Bohr and Einstein - The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video https://vimeo.com/98206867 Quantum Entanglement & Spooky Action at a Distance - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuvK-od647c Einstein vs quantum mechanics, and why he'd be a convert today - June 13, 2014 Excerpt: In a nutshell, experimentalists John Clauser, Alain Aspect, Anton Zeilinger, Paul Kwiat and colleagues have performed the Bell proposal for a test of Einstein's hidden variable theories. All results so far support quantum mechanics. It seems that when two particles undergo entanglement, whatever happens to one of the particles can instantly affect the other, even if the particles are separated! http://phys.org/news/2014-06-einstein-quantum-mechanics-hed-today.html
Moreover, the problem for materialists/atheists has only gotten worse. Far worse!
"hidden variables don’t exist. If you have proved them come back with PROOF and a Nobel Prize. John Bell theorized that maybe the particles can signal faster than the speed of light. This is what he advocated in his interview in “The Ghost in the Atom.” But the violation of Leggett’s inequality in 2007 takes away that possibility and rules out all non-local hidden variables. Observation instantly defines what properties a particle has and if you assume they had properties before we measured them, then you need evidence, because right now there is none which is why realism is dead, and materialism dies with it. How does the particle know what we are going to pick so it can conform to that?" per Jimfit https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mathematician-planck-data-disappoints-multiverse-claims/#comment-548632 Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 etc.. etc...
a few more notes to ruffle your materialistic feathers P:
Contextuality is 'magic ingredient' for quantum computing - June 11, 2012 Excerpt: Contextuality was first recognized as a feature of quantum theory almost 50 years ago. The theory showed that it was impossible to explain measurements on quantum systems in the same way as classical systems. In the classical world, measurements simply reveal properties that the system had, such as colour, prior to the measurement. In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation. Imagine turning over a playing card. It will be either a red suit or a black suit - a two-outcome measurement. Now imagine nine playing cards laid out in a grid with three rows and three columns. Quantum mechanics predicts something that seems contradictory – there must be an even number of red cards in every row and an odd number of red cards in every column. Try to draw a grid that obeys these rules and you will find it impossible. It's because quantum measurements cannot be interpreted as merely revealing a pre-existing property in the same way that flipping a card reveals a red or black suit. Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That's part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. http://phys.org/news/2014-06-weird-magic-ingredient-quantum.html Quantum experiment verifies Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance' - March 24, 2015 Excerpt: An experiment,, has for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein's original conception of "spooky action at a distance" using a single particle. ,,Professor Howard Wiseman and his experimental collaborators,, report their use of homodyne measurements to show what Einstein did not believe to be real, namely the non-local collapse of a (single) particle's wave function.,, According to quantum mechanics, a single particle can be described by a wave function that spreads over arbitrarily large distances,,, ,, by splitting a single photon between two laboratories, scientists have used homodyne detectors—which measure wave-like properties—to show the collapse of the wave function is a real effect,, This phenomenon is explained in quantum theory,, the instantaneous non-local, (betond space and time), collapse of the wave function to wherever the particle is detected.,,, "Einstein never accepted orthodox quantum mechanics and the original basis of his contention was this single-particle argument. This is why it is important to demonstrate non-local wave function collapse with a single particle," says Professor Wiseman. "Einstein's view was that the detection of the particle only ever at one point could be much better explained by the hypothesis that the particle is only ever at one point, without invoking the instantaneous collapse of the wave function to nothing at all other points. "However, rather than simply detecting the presence or absence of the particle, we used homodyne measurements enabling one party to make different measurements and the other, using quantum tomography, to test the effect of those choices." "Through these different measurements, you see the wave function collapse in different ways, thus proving its existence and showing that Einstein was wrong." http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html
bornagain77
April 6, 2015
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#428 BA77, Thank you for your concern, but I think I can do without your lesson. However, I fail to see why quantum entanglement or quantum indeterminacy should require Quantum Hoodoo Magic in addition to the four fundamental interactions known so far.Piotr
April 6, 2015
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Piotr, quantum entanglement, i.e. non-locality, is not reducible to any within space and time cause. You know, that whole dust up with Einstein, Bell, Aspect, Leggett, Zeilinger? Or did you miss that development? Do you want me to give you a short history lesson on the subject?bornagain77
April 6, 2015
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#424 KF, So (just for the record) thy speech shall not be "Yes, yes; No, no", but two paragraphs of evasive verbiage. OK, I suppose I will let my case rest.Piotr
April 6, 2015
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#422 BA77, OK, so the known fundamental interactions are not enough for you. That despite the fact that you tend to idolise quantum mechanics, and the interactions in questions are described by quantum field theories (well, that's not true of gravity yet, but we've got those lads in the Physics Faculty working on it). You need the Fifth Fundamental Force (FFF), also known as Quantum Hoodoo Magic (QHM). Can you tell us how it works?Piotr
April 6, 2015
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Piotr: How complex, functionally specific organised entities arise, per common observation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCn1ufOjaWc (and yes, it's fishing reels time again.) KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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Joe (attn Piotr): The overturning of the statistical underpinnings of 2LOT would come from actually objectively, empirically demonstrating blind watchmaker processes producing the FSCO/I of life by blind chance and mechanical necessity. This would be further shown by similar empirical demonstration -- not ideologically loaded inferences on the remote past -- of the same blind needle in haystack class of processes, multiple times, creating complex novel body plan features. Of course, no such observations are in hand or in reasonable prospect. But if it were done, it would be effectively a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind. I am highly confident on the involved statistics, that such will not be done on the gamut of Sol system or observed cosmos resources. KF PS, Piotr, kindly stop trying to force-fit me into a strawman caricature. The matter is deeply conceptual and analytical in the face of much blatant misconception. A simplistic Y/N answer that does not specify just what I agree/disagree with would be worse than useless. Why not, show us that you understand what I am saying, why. For instance, on a Maxwell Demon case as compared to say the assembly of a protein vs a fishing reel, why am I talking to relevant [as opposed to irrelevant or raw] information, energy and mass flows, why do I insist that such flows implicate coupling to energy converters and linked constructors in the context of creating FSCO/I rich entities, why do I point to exhaust of degenerated energy and likely waste mass?kairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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They are stealing non-applicable concepts and explanatory terms from non-materialists/non-reductionists.
They have practically stolen science from its rightful owners -- is that what you mean? Hey, WJM, why not show us how science should be practised? How do complex structures originate according to non-materialist, non-reductionist science?Piotr
April 6, 2015
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That proteins may be capable of quantum computation is briefly gone over here:
Quantum states in proteins and protein assemblies: The essence of life? – STUART HAMEROFF, JACK TUSZYNSKI Excerpt: It is, in fact, the hydrophobic effect and attractions among non-polar hydrophobic groups by van der Waals forces which drive protein folding. Although the confluence of hydrophobic side groups are small, roughly 1/30 to 1/250 of protein volumes, they exert enormous influence in the regulation of protein dynamics and function. Several hydrophobic pockets may work cooperatively in a single protein (Figure 2, Left). Hydrophobic pockets may be considered the “brain” or nervous system of each protein.,,, Proteins, lipids and nucleic acids are composed of constituent molecules which have both non-polar and polar regions on opposite ends. In an aqueous medium the non-polar regions of any of these components will join together to form hydrophobic regions where quantum forces reign. http://www.tony5m17h.net/SHJTQprotein.pdf
And here is the paper that proved that protein folding belongs to the physics of the quantum world and that protein folding does not belong to the physics of the classical world:
Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/
And here is another paper that empirically proved that quantum information is present in proteins:
Classical and Quantum Information Channels in Protein Chain - Dj. Koruga, A. Tomi?, Z. Ratkaj, L. Matija - 2006 Abstract: Investigation of the properties of peptide plane in protein chain from both classical and quantum approach is presented. We calculated interatomic force constants for peptide plane and hydrogen bonds between peptide planes in protein chain. On the basis of force constants, displacements of each atom in peptide plane, and time of action we found that the value of the peptide plane action is close to the Planck constant. This indicates that peptide plane from the energy viewpoint possesses synergetic classical/quantum properties. Consideration of peptide planes in protein chain from information viewpoint also shows that protein chain possesses classical and quantum properties. So, it appears that protein chain behaves as a triple dual system: (1) structural - amino acids and peptide planes, (2) energy - classical and quantum state, and (3) information - classical and quantum coding. Based on experimental facts of protein chain, we proposed from the structure-energy-information viewpoint its synergetic code system. http://www.scientific.net/MSF.518.491
Thus niwrad, since the quantum entanglement/information of quantum computation in protein folding requires a non-local, beyond space and time, cause to explain its existence,,,,
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
,,,,then we have very good evidence of "injection of organization into an isolated system', from outside the four fundamental forces and 'randomness', (and even outside all of space-time itself), in regards to explain how protein folding is accomplished.bornagain77
April 6, 2015
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niwrad as to:
"Per se 2nd_law_SM doesn’t prohibit injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source."
Although this may be controversial, I believe we now have evidence of 'injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source' with protein folding. To get this point across first it is important to learn what neo-Darwinism includes and what it excludes. Granville Sewell states:
What You Have to Believe to Not Believe in Intelligent Design - Granville Sewell - March 18, 2015 Excerpt: Peter Urone in his 2001 physics text College Physics writes, "One of the most remarkable simplifications in physics is that only four distinct forces account for all known phenomena." The prevailing view in science today is that physics explains all of chemistry, chemistry explains all of biology, and biology completely explains the human mind; thus physics alone explains the human mind and all it does. This is what you have to believe to not believe in intelligent design: that the origin and evolution of life, and the evolution of human consciousness and intelligence, are due entirely to a few unintelligent forces of physics. Thus you must believe that a few unintelligent forces of physics alone could have rearranged the fundamental particles of physics into computers and science texts and jet airplanes. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/what_you_have_t094501.html
The four distinct forces that account for all known phenomena in the materialistic worldview are:
The Fundamental Forces of Nature Excerpt: The strong interaction,, The electromagnetic force ,, The weak force,, The gravitational force,, http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/forces.html
It is also important to note that neo-Darwinism does not exclude 'unguided' randomness in its list of explanations for how everything came to be on the earth. As well, it is also important to note that those four forces are said to all be mediated at the speed of light. As well, it is important to note that another thing that is also excluded from the list is the physical resource of Quantum entanglement:
Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
With all that in mind, now let's look at protein folding. It is now known that proteins do not find their final folded form by 'random' processes:
The Humpty-Dumpty Effect: A Revolutionary Paper with Far-Reaching Implications - Paul Nelson - October 23, 2012 Excerpt: Anyone who has studied the protein folding problem will have met the famous Levinthal paradox, formulated in 1969 by the molecular biologist Cyrus Levinthal. Put simply, the Levinthal paradox states that when one calculates the number of possible topological (rotational) configurations for the amino acids in even a small (say, 100 residue) unfolded protein, random search could never find the final folded conformation of that same protein during the lifetime of the physical universe. Therefore, concluded Levinthal, given that proteins obviously do fold, they are doing so, not by random search, but by following favored pathways. The challenge of the protein folding problem is to learn what those pathways are. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/a_revolutionary065521.html Confronting Science’s Logical Limits – John L. Casti – 1996 Excerpt: It has been estimated that a supercomputer applying plausible rules for protein folding would need 10^127 years to find the final folded form for even a very short sequence consisting of just 100 amino acids. (The universe is 13.7 x 10^9 years old). In fact, in 1993 Aviezri S. Fraenkel of the University of Pennsylvania showed that the mathematical formulation of the protein-folding problem is computationally “hard” in the same way that the traveling-salesman problem is hard. http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/Confronting_Sciences_Logical_Limits.pdf
That no one really has a firm clue how proteins are finding their final folded form is made clear by the immense time (a few weeks) it takes for a few hundred thousand computers, which are linked together, to find the final folded form of a single protein:
A Few Hundred Thousand Computers vs. (The Folding Of) A Single Protein Molecule – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHqi3ih0GrI
The reason why finding the final form of a folded protein is so hard for supercomputers is that it is like the ‘traveling salesman’ puzzle, which are ‘Just about the meanest problems you can set a computer (on) ‘.
DNA computer helps traveling salesman - Philip Ball - 2000 Excerpt: Just about the meanest problems you can set a computer belong to the class called 'NP-complete'. The number of possible answers to these conundrums, and so the time required to find the correct solution, increases exponentially as the problem is scaled up in size. A famous example is the 'travelling salesman' puzzle, which involves finding the shortest route connecting all of a certain number of cities.,,, Solving the traveling-salesman problem is a little like finding the most stable folded shape of a protein's chain-like molecular structure -- in which the number of 'cities' can run to hundreds or even thousands. http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000113/full/news000113-10.html
Yet it is exactly this type of ‘traveling salesman problem’ that quantum computers excel at:
Speed Test of Quantum Versus Conventional Computing: Quantum Computer Wins - May 8, 2013 Excerpt: quantum computing is, "in some cases, really, really fast." McGeoch says the calculations the D-Wave excels at involve a specific combinatorial optimization problem, comparable in difficulty to the more famous "travelling salesperson" problem that's been a foundation of theoretical computing for decades.,,, "This type of computer is not intended for surfing the internet, but it does solve this narrow but important type of problem really, really fast," McGeoch says. "There are degrees of what it can do. If you want it to solve the exact problem it's built to solve, at the problem sizes I tested, it's thousands of times faster than anything I'm aware of. If you want it to solve more general problems of that size, I would say it competes -- it does as well as some of the best things I've looked at. At this point it's merely above average but shows a promising scaling trajectory." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130508122828.htm
bornagain77
April 6, 2015
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Piotr:
So, in plain, unambiguous, no-beat-about-the-bush, non-sesquipedalian English, does life violate the 2LoT in any way? YES or NO?
The violation comes from the claim that blind and undirected processes produced life.Joe
April 6, 2015
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William J Murray
Materialists are stealing concepts and explanatory terms from non-materialists/non-reductionists.
There is more. They use all the top-down vertical stack of non-materialist services, while denying it. Being, agency, causation, intellect, mind, consciousness, language... all used for free without a bit of gratitude and all powerfully applied to deny their Source.niwrad
April 6, 2015
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William J Murray: Box – is making an argument about the logically necessary consequences of materialism as a worldview, and instead respond as if Box is making an argument about what people who call themselves materialists actually think and believe? That's easily resolved. Let's agree that self-described materialists do recognize objects. Then the argument is that this recognition is inconsistent with materialism. William J Murray: Box is making the case – and quite well – that under logically-consistent materialism, materialists must explain everything, and refer to everything, in terms of the bottom-up characteristics of the particles-in-motion Two problems. One, while materialists agree that everything supervenes on the physical, not all materialists believe that everything can be explained by reference to particles. Two, even those that think everything can be explained in terms of particles can coherently point out that those particles clump. niwrad: Ah no? And the famous Maxwell demon what is? And humans build heat engines.Zachriel
April 6, 2015
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#404 KF,
One last thing, I am by no means “conceding” — loaded word that hints of an attitude you need to change — that observed life comports with 2LOT. I am basing my analysis on its statistical underpinnings and the linked observed pattern of relevant couplings and energy-mass-info flows connected to construction and configurational work. With, say, protein synthesis as a capital case in point of real world molecular nanotech.
So, in plain, unambiguous, no-beat-about-the-bush, non-sesquipedalian English, does life violate the 2LoT in any way? YES or NO?
Have you seen jumbo jets or even the D’Arsonval galvanometer based cockpit instruments assembled out of a tornado passing through a junkyard near the Boeing plant? Or, the like? Why not?
Because biological "nano-technology" is completely unlike human-made hardware? Because molecular "nanomachines" can self-assemble just by assuming a thermodynamically favoured configuration? Because lipids spontaneosly organise themselves into membranes, and proteins spontaneously form quarternary complexes, and they need no spanners, screwdrivers, welders, rivets or forklift trucks? And because the sources of energy used by biological systems are rather different from a tornado?Piotr
April 6, 2015
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niwrad: I would suggest using the verbs “to by-pass” or “to overarch” or “to counter” to describe the situation. A parallel example. A rocket doesn't violate the *law* of gravity, it overcomes the *force* of gravity. We might speak, loosely, of a *force* of entropy. The overall entropy will inevitably increase, but local regions may experience decreased entropy. These regions of decreased entropy are implausible based on a chance arrangement of microstates, so there has to be an irreversible loss of usable energy (work) for them to occur.Zachriel
April 6, 2015
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Zachriel
There’s no term in statistical thermodynamics for “intelligent source” or “organization”.
Ah no? And the famous Maxwell demon what is? ;)niwrad
April 6, 2015
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Why is it that so many materialists, like Zachriel and Keiths, cannot recognize it when a person - like Box - is making an argument about the logically necessary consequences of materialism as a worldview, and instead respond as if Box is making an argument about what people who call themselves materialists actually think and believe? Box is making the case - and quite well - that under logically-consistent materialism, materialists must explain everything, and refer to everything, in terms of the bottom-up characteristics of the particles-in-motion, and have no license or right to refer to commodities which require or implicate a top-down "whole" commodity or characteristic. Saying that materialists "do" think about brains and other macro-commodities and "do" employ macro-related terminologies as explanations is to miss the point altogether; yes, they do, but they shouldn't, and have no grounds by which to employ such terms and commodities. They are stealing non-applicable concepts and explanatory terms from non-materialists/non-reductionists.William J Murray
April 6, 2015
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niwrad: Per se 2nd_law_SM doesn’t prohibit injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source. There's no term in statistical thermodynamics for "intelligent source" or "organization". niwrad: So, if with “to violate” we mean “to suspend”, or something like that, my answer is “no”, intelligent interventions don’t violate/suspend the laws operating on matter. So, no. Intelligent intervention doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
April 6, 2015
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Zachriel
When humans build a machine, does it violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? What if the humans built a self-replicating machine, would it then violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
Good questions. Per se 2nd_law_SM doesn't prohibit injection of organization into an isolated system from an intelligent source. Simply 2nd_law_SM states what is the spontaneous trend of isolated systems when no organization is injected. So, if with "to violate" we mean "to suspend", or something like that, my answer is "no", intelligent interventions don't violate/suspend the laws operating on matter. I would suggest using the verbs "to by-pass" or "to overarch" or "to counter" to describe the situation. For me "to violate" or "to suspend" a law mean that a law is zeroed, nullified. While the verbs I suggest haven't this strong meaning. Anyway I am of course open to corrections by you English language people. The above answer applies also to eventual self-replicating machines. I see nothing fundamentally different.niwrad
April 6, 2015
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What makes them a materialist is that they assert that the properties of organisms, including mind, are due to physical processes.
That is also what makes them delusional.Joe
April 6, 2015
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Box: Letters derive their meaning from a word. Words derive their meaning from a sentence. A sentence derives its meaning from yet a larger context. Notice the top-down flow of meaning. Yes. Materialists usually have brains with which they can form generalizations about the world. The existence of objects is rather unavoidable. Matter tends to clump you know. Box: Therefore, in a universe where, according to materialism, only particles in motion exist one cannot speak coherently of things of meaning and function. There's also clumps of particles, which brains can recognize and label. Box: Under materialism an organism is not real. That's simply not the case. A materialist recognizes organisms as real objects. What makes them a materialist is that they assert that the properties of organisms, including mind, are due to physical processes. Box: What’s real – according to the materialist – is particles in motion and nothing else. We've provided some neutral citations indicating that materialism is consistent with recognizing and designating objects. niwrad: It is their alleged supposed spontaneous generation by natural forces that WOULD violate the 2nd_law_SM. When humans build a machine, does it violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? What if the humans built a self-replicating machine, would it then violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?Zachriel
April 6, 2015
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You'd think keiths from TSZ (phoenix) would at least try to change the way he interacts if he's going to go to all the trouble of creating aliases to participate here. Nobody blatantly misrepresents in an attempt to agitate like keiths.William J Murray
April 6, 2015
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