Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Fixing a Confusion

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I have often noticed something of a confusion on one of the major points of the Intelligent Design movement – whether or not the design inference is primarily based on the failure of Darwinism and/or mechanism.

This is expressed in a recent thread by a commenter saying, “The arguments for this view [Intelligent Design] are largely based on the improbability of other mechanisms (e.g. evolution) producing the world we observe.” I’m not going to name the commenter because this is a common confusion that a lot of people have.

The reason for this is largely historical. It used to be that the arguments for design were very plain. Biology proceeded according to a holistic plan both in the organism and the environment. This plan indicated a clear teleology – that the organism did things that were *for* something. These organisms exhibited a unity of being. This is evidence of design. It has no reference to probabilities or improbabilities of any mechanism. It is just evidence on its own.

Then, in the 19th century, Darwin suggested that there was another possibility for the reason for this cohesion – natural selection. Unity of plan and teleological design, according to Darwin, could also happen due to selection.

Thus, the original argument is:

X, Y, and Z indicate design

Darwin’s argument is:

X, Y, and Z could also indicate natural selection

So, therefore, we simply show that Darwin is wrong in this assertion. If Darwin is wrong, then the original evidence for design (which was not based on any probability) goes back to being evidence for design. The only reason for probabilities in the modern design argument is because Darwinites have said, “you can get that without design”, so we modeled NotDesign as well, to show that it can’t be done that way.

So, the *only* reason we are talking about probabilities is to answer an objection. The original evidence *remains* the primary evidence that it was based on. Answering the objection simply removes the objection.

As a case in point, CSI is based on the fact that designed things have a holistic unity. Thus, they follow a specification that is simpler than their overall arrangement. CSI is the quest to quantify this point. It does involve a chance rejection region as well, but the main point is that the design must operate on principles simpler than their realization (which provides the reduced Kolmogorov complexity for the specificational complexity).

Comments
Bob O'H: Please. look at my post #4, point 1).gpuccio
December 2, 2016
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johnnyb - if I was ignoring you, I wouldn't have replied. Anyway, the "X, Y, Z indicate design" part of ID barely exists: it's a bold assertion ("lots of intricate parts indicate design") but isn't explored in any detail. For that to have any rigour, you would have to show that X, Y, and Z do indeed indicate design. To the extent this is done. it's done by calculating numbers like CSI, and claiming that evolution can't create those numbers. I haven't seen any more positive case for ID - there is no exploration of design and the process, for example.Bob O'H
December 1, 2016
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Bob - you are apparently just ignoring us. As I pointed out, the *evidence* for design has always been there. That is the X, Y, and Z above (which I summarized as unity of plan and teleological design). These are positive evidences. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. As an example, irreducible complexity is merely an experimental way of assessing holism in a system.johnnyb
December 1, 2016
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I'll admit it - I was that un-named commenter. But you seem to fix my confusion by agreeing with me. You write:
Thus, the original argument is: X, Y, and Z indicate design Darwin’s argument is: X, Y, and Z could also indicate natural selection So, therefore, we simply show that Darwin is wrong in this assertion.
I think you would have an argument here if you (the ID community) went beyond this and provided positive scientific evidence for design. I'm not aware of that being done, I'm afraid.Bob O'H
December 1, 2016
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johnny Good points.
In ID, if something *could* have been done by either, we leave it alone, even though in theory if X could have been done by either, it could have been designed, too, but we wouldn’t necessarily have a justifiable reason for preferring design to not design.
That's important. ID does not attempt to identify every possible instance of design in nature, or even make a statement that whatever thing is "not designed", but only that certain things show the scientific evidence of having been designed. Other things may have been designed also, but there is not enough evidence to indicate that in them.Silver Asiatic
December 1, 2016
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mark - My goal was to summarize in a few words several chapters of information :) The main idea of the Design Inference is that designed things have a much simpler specification than their base descriptions. For example, if I shot 1,000 arrows in a circle, it would be simpler to say, "1,000 arrows in a 10 foot radius circle about point Y" than it would be to describe the individual positions of the arrows. The base positions are complex (take a lot of words/numbers to describe) but the specification is simpler by comparison. This is a general feature of designed things. On more complex things, the specification gets larger, but so does the abstract space to work in. In these cases, specifying a functional test to which something conforms does a similar job of reducing the size of the specification compared to the theoretical size of configuration space. For instance, saying a "building that won't fall down under the weight of X pounds" actually greatly reduces the number of possible configurations that are satisfied in configuration space (and, thus, is smaller). Self-replication, for instance, is a requirement that greatly reduces the specificational size of an organism. I have some videos on Specified Complexity coming out soon which should clear up some of these ideas. I have an early version here if you are interested.johnnyb
December 1, 2016
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Silver - You raise some good points. However, I disagree that "Design would be a default position for everything". Design is not a default position for everything. It is true historically that some individuals argued this way (and still do). I also would agree that Darwin (and Lamarck) did make us think about the fact that there are aspects of biology historically driven. It's not that we didn't know this before, it just wasn't taken very seriously. But I would not say that Darwin is the arbiter of design or not design, because it has to match design first. However, we should also distinguish a little between ontological and epistemological points of view. That is, there is a difference between what *is* design, and what we can justify *knowing* as design. ID focuses on what we can know to be design empirically, while many from previous design theories started with a general assumption of design, and used specific justifications to justify the whole theory. In ID, if something *could* have been done by either, we leave it alone, even though in theory if X could have been done by either, it could have been designed, too, but we wouldn't necessarily have a justifiable reason for preferring design to not design. Therefore, in ID, we focus on things in which our design inference is justifiable, rather than using justifications for individual features as a justification for broader statements about design.johnnyb
December 1, 2016
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johnnyb
X, Y, and Z indicate design Darwin’s argument is: X, Y, and Z could also indicate natural selection
I think it's more complicated than that. If it was merely that "Whenever Darwin was wrong, we have Design". We would also have "Whenever Darwin is right, we don't have Design.". So, Design would be a default position for everything, including micro-evolutionary adaptations, which were considered Design at one time. Once we see that mutations can cause adaptation, then we say "ok, those are not Design". So, Darwin becomes the arbiter of what is Design and what not.
So, the *only* reason we are talking about probabilities is to answer an objection.
I disagree here. I think we're trying to define our terms and not merely rely on "it looks designed and therefore it is, unless someone proves otherwise". The positive case for ID is that there are thresholds beyond which, no natural process can produce. We establish parameters for which we can infer design. That's what Behe does with Edge of Evolution. We can test, experimentally, what evolution can do. It does some things, and not others. Finding that edge helps us define our scientific claim. This would be necessary without Darwin - it's part of understanding the world.Silver Asiatic
December 1, 2016
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KF: Of course, functional complexity of individual objects is only the first layer. You are absolutely right to insist on higher level organisation, which IMO includes the important concept of irreducible complexity. As you know, I usually stick to the first layer of complexity because I can more easily get some quantitative evaluation, working with protein sequences. :)gpuccio
December 1, 2016
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GP functional complexity tied to specific organisation and/or coupling of components. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2016
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johnnyb: Very well said! :) I would simply add that there is also a positive empirical basis for the design inference, which in some way clarifies and quantifies the "very plain arguments for design" in historical thought that you mention in your OP. The positive empirical argument for design inference is that functional complexity higher than some appropriate threshold is observed only in designed objects (human artifacts), and in no other object in the known universe, except for biological objects, whose origin is exactly the controversial issue. Moreover, the link between functional complexity and design is not only empirical, but also rational, because we can easily understand that the conscious processes of understanding and purpose are the central point of the design process, and can explain the high level of functional complexity in designed things, and only in designed things. So, in the end we have: 1) A positive argument for the design inference, in two parts: 1a: Functional complexity is observed only in designed things, and can be used for design inference. 1b: There is a definite, rational connection between the conscious processes of understanding and purpose, that guide the design process, and the generation of functional complexity on objects. 2) A negative argument for the design inference: given some category of objects for which we can infer design by functional complexity, like most biological objects, if alternative non design explanations are proposed, there remains the duty to falsify those alternative explanations: otherwise, the alternative explanation would falsify the design explanation. The error of design critics is that they consider point 2) as the foundation for ID theory and for the design inference, while they happily ignore point 1), in both its components. That's why ID theory is a very positive theory, and not a "gap argument". On the contrary, ID criticism is simply a misguided, uninformed attempt at refutation of something that, evidently, the self appointed critics don't understand.gpuccio
December 1, 2016
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"but the main point is that the design must operate on principles simpler than their realization (which provides the reduced Kolmogorov complexity for the specificational complexity)" Maybe it's just me but this feels interesting but I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Could you explain this a little further?mark
December 1, 2016
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JB, very well said, as usual. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2016
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Technology is defined as the result of the application of scientific knowledge for a purpose. The Darwinian cellular "protoplasm" of the 19th century we now know to be self-replicating, digital-information-based nanotechnology. That settled it for those who have avoided atheistic indoctrination that pretends to be science.harry
November 30, 2016
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