Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Four fallacies evolutionists make when arguing about biological function (part 1)

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

First of all, I want to apologize for shamelessly copying the title and structure of a recent post by VJ Torley. VJ, I hope you will pardon me: imitators, after all, are an undeniable mark of true success! 🙂

That said, let’s go to the subject of this post. I have discussed a little bit about biological function in my previous posts, and I have received many comments about that topic, some of them from very good interlocutors (I would like to publicly thank here Piotr and wd400, in particular). From my general experience in this blog during the last few years, I would like to sum up some of the more questionable attitudes and arguments which I have witnessed most frequently from the “other side” about this concept. Indeed, my purpose here is to catch not so much the specific arguments, but rather the general perspectives which are behind them, and which I believe to be wrong (that’s why I call them “fallacies” in the title).

So, here we go. First the whole list, then we analyze each individual point.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

4. The fallacy of completely ignoring the highest form of function: the procedures.

I will deal with the first three issue in this post, and with the fourth in a later post.

1. The fallacy of denying the objectivity of function.

This attitude takes the form of an obstinate resistance to the concept itself of function, as though it were something which does not exist. So it happens that, as soon as we IDists start talking about functional specification, there is always someone on the other side ready to question: “Yes, but how do you define function?”. Or to argue that function is just a subjective concept, and that it has no role in science.

Many times I have simply answered: “Hey, just look at some protein database, like Uniprot. You will easily find, for each protein listed there, the voice: “Molecular function”. And usually there is one or more functions listed there. Is that bad science? Are you going to write to the people who run Uniprot asking them what do they mean by that word?”

The truth is that practically everybody understands perfectly what function means, and the attitude of denying the concept is just that: simple denial, motivated by the (correct) conviction that the concept itself of function is definitely ID friendly. .

However, the more sophisticated among our interlocutors will not deny function in such a gross way, but they will probably try to argue that the concept is obscure, vague, ill defined, and therefore not reliable. Here we find objections such as: “What do you mean exactly with the word?” or “To what kind of function do you refer?” or “Function can change according to how we define the context”. There is some truth in these thoughts, but in no way such objections are a real problem if we treat the concept of function correctly.

For example, in my previous post “Functional information defined” I have given the following definitions:

I will try to begin introducing two slightly different, but connected, concepts:

a) A function (for an object)

b) A functionality (in a material object)

I define a function for an object as follows:

a) If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.

b) If an object can objectively be used by a conscious observer to obtain some specific desired result in a certain context, according to the conceived function, then we say that the object has objective functionality, referred to the specific conceived function.

I will stick to those definitions.

So, function can be objectively defined, even if some reference to a conscious observer conceiving and recognizing it is always necessary.

It is perfectly true that different functions can be defined for the same object. There is no problem there. It is also true that functions can be stratified at different levels. Uniprot correctly lists “molecular functions”. So, for example, hexokinase has the molecular function of binding ATP and phosphorylating glucose or other hexoses, That is what I call the “local function”, the immediate biochemical effect of the molecule. But we can also say that the role of hexokinase is to start the glycolysis process and therefore contribute to the extraction of energy from food in the form of ATP, a role which would not be immediately obvious from the local function (which, instead, consumes ATP). This is a meta-function, because it describes the role of the enzyme in a wider context. We can say that the local function contributes to the meta-function.

In ID theory, local functions are specially interesting when we try to compute the functional complexity of a single protein. For that, we must refer to its immediate biochemical effect. But the meta-function is specially interesting too, when we try to analyze the complexity of a whole system of molecules, such as a protein cascades. In this kind of analysis, the concept of irreducible complexity is very important.

The important point is: denying function, or denying that it can be treated objectively in a scientific context, is a fallacy.

2.  The fallacy of overemphasizing the role of generic function.

This is generally what I call the concept of “any possible function”, which is so often invoked by darwinists as a reason to believe in the power of natural selection and of the neo-darwinian RV + NS algorithm.

The reasoning is more or less the following: as NS is not looking for anything particular, it will detect everything possible which is “useful”. IOWs, NS has no prejudices, and therefore it is very powerful, much more powerful of old good intelligent design, which is confined to intelligent options. That was one of Petrushka’s favourite arguments, but in different ways it has been proposed by many darwinist commentators here.

Now, I hate quoting myself again, but if you look at the above definition of “function”, you will see that everything can be functional in some context. Function is not a rare thing, because, as already said:

If a conscious observer connects some observed object to some possible desired result which can be obtained using the object in a context, then we say that the conscious observer conceives of a function for that object.”

Now, as we can conceive of a lot of desires (that is certainly a very human prerogative), functions are very easy to get. In any context, we can use practically anything to obtain some result. That’s why I rarely throw away anything because, you know, “it could be useful, sooner or later”.

Does that reinforce the darwinist concept that “any possible function” is relevant?

Not at all. Quite the contrary. Just because possible functions are everywhere, it is easy to see that only some specific functions are really relevant in a specific context.

So, if I go to my attic, I can maybe find some use for any kind of junk that I may find there. But, if I happen to find a forgotten working computer there, I can certainly use it in a very specific way.

So, I would say that there is a great difference between finding some piece of wood which could perhaps be adapted to some use, and finding a working computer. The piece of wood is an example of “any possible function”, while the computer is an example of specific, complex function.

And, as anyone should understand, even if I find 1000 pieces of wood in my attic, that will not give me a working computer. IOWs, simple generic functions do not naturally add to a complex specific function.

So, why am I saying that darwinists tend to overemphasize the role of generic function?  The reason is simple: generic function is all they have, all they can deal with. Their only “engine of variation”, which is RV, can only, at best, generate simple generic function, nothing more. So, what do we do when we have only such and such?   We overemphasize the importance of such and such. Not because it is important, but because it is the only thing we have. An old fallacy, but always a common one.

3. The fallacy of downplaying the role of specific function.

The simple truth is that, especially in a system which is already complex, functional changes usually require complex interventions. Indeed, the addition of a truly new function to an existing complex system requires not only the complexity implicit in the function itself, but also the complexity necessary to integrate the new function in the existing system.

As already said, in the biological context there are two different ways to look at functions: what I call the “local function”, IOWs, the immediate biochemical activity of the molecule, and the “meta-functions”, IOWs, the general results of the activity of that molecule in the whole system.

Let’s take a molecule as an example: ATP synthase. A classic.

It is a very good example, because:

a) It is a very old molecule, already present in LUCA, before the archaea-bacteria divergence, almost 4 billion years ago.

b) It is a very complex molecule: it is made of two different parts, F0 and F1, each of them made of many subunits, and each subunit is a complex protein.

c) It is a very functional protein, indeed a wonderful molecular machine which transforms a proton gradient into stored biochemical energy in the form of ATP, working very much like a mill.

d) It is a very conserved protein. Let’s take only the subunits alpha and beta, which make most of the F1 part. a multiple alignment between: the human protein, the archaea protein (methanosarcina barkeri) and the bacterial protein (E. coli) showed 176 identities for the alpha subunit and 202 identities for the beta subunit. A total of 378 perfectly conserved aminoacid positions in just two of the many subunits of the molecule, along the whole tree of life.

e) Its local function is very clear: it synthesizes ATP from the energy derived from a proton gradient, transforming the flow of H+ ions into a mechanical rotation which in turn couples the phosphate molecule to ADP.

f) Its meta-function is equally clear: it generates the energy substrate which makes all cellular life possible: ATP.

Now, 378 identities after about 4 billion years during which all possible neutral mutations had time to happen mean just one thing: those 378 AAs must be there, and they must be what they are for the molecule to work.

This is a very good example of a very specific and complex function. In a complex context (cellular life), where the function is useful because there are a lot of individual processes whic h depend on ATP to exist. It is not the piece of wood in the attic. It is a supercomputer, an amazing molecular machine.

Well, are darwinists  curious, concerned or worried because of such specific complex functions which can be found in the old attic of OOL? Not at all. They are confident that they can be readily dealt with. There is an appropriate tool, usually called “the just so story”. For a good example, just read the Wikipedia section about ATP synthase, the part under “Evolution of ATP synthase”. Have fun.

The problem is: complex functional proteins simply cannot be explained. So, why should we think that they must be explained? After all, we can find so many generic functions in our attic: small variations in a gene which can give antibiotic resistance through one or two AA mutations, small changes in the affinity of an existing esterase which confer a nylonase activity through a couple of mutations, the selective spread in specific populations of the heterozigote state of drepanocytosis (one mutation) which gives some resistance to malaria. With all those good pieces of wood which can be used to fix some old chair, who cares about those stunning supercomputers which crowd our attic? They are just there, let’s not be fastidious about the details.

Well, that’s enough for the moment. We will discuss the “procedures” fallacy in next post.

Comments
Yes we can imagine something just appearing but the one thing we cannot imagine is nothingness. To imagine nothing we have to imagine something but nothing is not something.
That seems right - we don't really imagine nothingness in itself (it's not an "itself") but we imagine some kind of state of nothing. The point was that if we can imagine things popping into existence without a cause, we're really imagining them coming from nothing.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PDT
GP: God, of course, is perhaps the most serious candidate to be a necessary being. That is as old as the descriptions I AM, and The Eternal One. The issue being touted here is that someone wishes for a possible but not necessary being that is without contributory causal factors. The problems with such a notion are many, not least for any would be materialist. Such a being is not material or energy [thus is not a quantum phenomenon . . . and Q-mech cannot be called up in empirical support], cannot be made of components, is not a proposition or number or mental construct of any type. Is not even a ghost as a ghost comes from a living being if such exist. ( I pointed out much of that earlier today.) Those are the preliminaries. On empirical entities and considerations, such a being is obviously non-empirical. Indeed, so far removed from the province of science that one must wonder how we got there. But the underlying point is that the issues we are addressing pivot on an underlying situation where we have objectors to design who on being pressed turn out to object to the binding nature of first principles of right reason, deny that there are such things as self evident truths that are foundational to reasoning, wish to deny that if something begins it has a cause, and more. In short, the problems we face begin far, far before the issue of living in a world that is orderly and shows stable empirical patterns that may legitimately be understood as causal. It begins to look to me -- with all due respect to MF and others who would join him -- more and more like the issues involved in objections to design thought are at root metaphysical, epistemological logical and more. Basically, it looks more and more like we are seeing a burning down of the house of reason in order to walk away from a case that must be compelling indeed in the merits of fact and logic. And, that leads me to wonder if we are now dealing with global or selective hyperskepticism, more likely the latter as there is a push to put on the table an imagined verbal assertion which cannot even come close to empirical evidence. And, that would be a sobering candidate fallacy indeed. At this point, I have to ask MF et al to show me good reason to reject that position, which I hesitate to take up but find it harder and harder to avoid. I will now, by your leave turn back to MF and address him briefly. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PDT
GP
Just to say something, I would like to know if it is possible to move a little the discussion to the empirical level, without renouncing to debate the problem of cause or not cause.
GP I apologize for participating in any dreailment of your thread.I will go back to lurker status. Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PDT
SA
We can imagine, for example, something coming from nothing. That’s basically the point here. We imagine nothingness. We can then imagine that something pops up and has existence now.
Hi Silver I would have to disagree with some of this. Yes we can imagine something just appearing but the one thing we cannot imagine is nothingness. To imagine nothing we have to imagine something but nothing is not something. Vividvividbleau
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
Friends: I have tried to avoid intervening in this interesting discussion, because I am not completely at ease with purely logical arguments. Just to say something, I would like to know if it is possible to move a little the discussion to the empirical level, without renouncing to debate the problem of cause or not cause. I am not really interested in what is logical or not logical, but in what exists and in how things exist. So, I am not interested if it is "possible" that "a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason". I just want to know if it happens. In this world, in another world, anywhere. The fact that we can "imagine" that "a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason" is no evidence that such a thing happens. It is just evidence that we can imagine it. It's not the same thing. So, does "a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason", any where? I don't think so. My simple point is that in the phenomenic world events are always related to other events. Those relationships can take different forms, but they are relationships just the same, and IMO those relationships can be potentially understood and cognized. Cause and effect is a kind of relationship. The general idea is that all phenomenic events are in some way constrained by laws. The most "unconstrained" event I can imagine is an event influenced by free will, but even in that case there are constraints on which free will acts. As I tried to argue previously with Piotr (post #242, point 1), probabilistic constraints in QM, whatever they mean, are constraints just the same. A probabilistic law, especially if intrinsic, is still a law. Those events cannot happen "out of control", because otherwise the wave function would not generate a specific probability distribution. The fact that the law acts on the general form of many events does not make it less a law. I believe that we do need an uncaused cause to get a worldview that makes sense. But that uncaused cause is defined, on purpose, as transcendent phenomena. Some call it God.gpuccio
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PDT
It is imaginable and therefore there is a possible world where it does happen and therefore it is not self-evident that it cannot happen.
I've been trying to follow the discussion and would like to jump in for a minute. I'm glad for the explanation above because I didn't understand the challenge before this. To me it seems, however, that the fact that something is imaginable is not a very strong basis for it being possible. We can imagine, for example, something coming from nothing. That's basically the point here. We imagine nothingness. We can then imagine that something pops up and has existence now. So, can we conclude, on this basis that "it's possible for something to come from nothing"? The reason it's not possible and illogical is that the term "come from" refers to some "thing" prior to the event. If there is nothing, there is no way for a "from" event. "Nothing" provides no basis for anything to come from it. If it did, it wouldn't be nothing. A zebra pops up into the room with no cause. But this is the same as saying that the zebra "came from" nothing. Again, that's illogical since "nothing" cannot provide any means for something to come from it.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
11:17 AM
11
11
17
AM
PDT
KF I will try for a bit longer but I am running out of ways to explain my point.
Should add, consider a being with no external dependencies and no internal roadblocks. It does not exist in a world, for argument. There is nothing in the world to pop it up, it is not there even in nascent form, and nothing has no powers. It is not going to happen. Unless of course you wish to assign powers to non-being Which is a reductio. KF
The whole point is that it is conceivable that there is something that does not need anything to "pop it up". It just appears - without anything popping it up - not an external force, not itself, not "nothing". As Stephenb puts it a zebra suddenly appears in the living room for no reason. In some possible worlds it pops up. In others it doesn't. I know its absurd and it will not happen in our possible world, but that is not the point. It is imaginable and therefore there is a possible world where it does happen and therefore it is not self-evident that it cannot happen. To put it another way - it is conceivable that there are things with no blocks that appear in some worlds but not in all. If you free your mind of this dependency on blocks and enablers you might come to understand.Mark Frank
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT
F/N: Notice too such an entity as popping up with no external causal dependences cannot be made of matter -- that is an enabling factor, it cannot be popping up in space, it cannot be a proposition or concept in a mind, it cannot be an arrangement of matter, and so forth. What then is it but nothing. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
10:17 AM
10
10
17
AM
PDT
Should add, consider a being with no external dependencies and no internal roadblocks. It does not exist in a world, for argument. There is nothing in the world to pop it up, it is not there even in nascent form, and nothing has no powers. It is not going to happen. Unless of course you wish to assign powers to non-being Which is a reductio. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
MF: Nope, it is not even an assumption. Per definition, an impossible being is blocked in every possible world, by something internal -- mutually contradictory core attributes. A possible being will have two characteristics: no internal blocks and existence in at least one world. The being will be contingent if there is at least one world where it is absent, pointing to an external block as nothing, non being cannot have influences. A being without dependence on external influences that is also possible and existing in one world will have no blocks on it in any world. Rather, the block will be on its non-existence -- it will be necessary as we saw with examples. A being that is blocked in at least one world will be contingent: me for instance. Being possible the block is not internal. Non-being has no capability to enable or to block, so the block will be external to it. It will be dependent on external enabling factors. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
10:05 AM
10
10
05
AM
PDT
PPPS: That means, too, for the A pops up acausally, we are looking at trying to extract causal powers from non-being.kairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
09:56 AM
9
09
56
AM
PDT
PS: Let's not forget, there are two possible loci for influences on an object inside it or external to it, where, nothing -- non-being not mislabelled quantum fields -- plainly has no power to act. If A does not exist at least in nascent or seminal form, it cannot act reflexively on itself. Thus, the locus for initiating enabling factors is in the external world. PPS: Of course, necessary beings are without beginning or end, and no possible world can be without them. Not for arbitrary reasons but because their non-existence is what is impossible. For familiarity, do start from the empty set {} --> 0, then go {0} --> 1, {0, 1} --> 2 etc. Now try to construct a possible world in which such is impossible or even just not there.kairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PDT
KF #328 The key sentence in all that appears to be:
A possible being with no enabling on/off factors will exist in at least one possible world (and from examples given, maybe in indefinitely many with sufficiently similar states of affairs), and as there is nothing to block it in any world, it will exist in all possible worlds.
This assumes that if there is nothing to block something appearing it will appear in every possible world. This an unsubstantiated assumption. The thesis of acausality is that things may happen or appear in some possible worlds and not happen or appear in others without any enabling or disabling factors. You need to show that this is self-evidently false. Describing numerous examples of enabling and disabling factors will not do this.Mark Frank
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT
MF: Pardon, but please notice where this begins. First, we take a distinct thing A, and so have a world partition: W = { A | NOT_A } This immediately entails as corollaries that we have LOI, LNC and LEM, self evident. Details elsewhere. Next, we undertake the question, why A and indicate we may freely ask it and seek, expect or hope for a good and sufficient reason. This is patently unobjectionable. This leads to investigating modes of being, via two successive partitions: impossible vs possible beings first. Beings are impossible if there are core attributes that preclude feasibility due to mutual contradiction, as with that proverbial candidate being example, the square circle. And note, the examples are for clarification not demonstration or inductive generalisation etc. As a related point, had my Grandfather and not my uncle drowned in Connecticut in 1943, I would still have been possible but would have had a non-core difference. Had he gone off to war in 1914 (and the block to that was, he was stabbed in 1912 and was rejected . . . ) and had he fallen, neither my Father nor I would exist. Again, illustrative example on what "core" is about. Recall, of possible beings, they would exist in at least one possible world. Of possible beings, next, we may dichotomise again, based on whether or not there are enabling factors for being. A possible being with no enabling on/off factors will exist in at least one possible world (and from examples given, maybe in indefinitely many with sufficiently similar states of affairs), and as there is nothing to block it in any world, it will exist in all possible worlds. Something like the number 2 or the proposition 2 + 3 = 5 illustrate this. That is, we cannot construct a possible world in which this will not obtain. Now, on the other side, we DO have a possible being, but one with enabling factors, at least one. Such a being can be blocked from existing in at least one possible world, and THAT IS WHY IT IS CONTINGENT. For instance, had my Grandfather not been stabbed in 1912 and had there been a Turkish marksman with the proverbial numbered bullet (given his reputation as a rifleman I am sure he would have become a sniper) neither my Dad nor I nor my son etc would be possible. In short the descriptive labels contingent and necessary are secondary to the modes of being. Just so, we term an enabling factor for a possible being a necessary causal factor. A cluster of factors sufficient to guarantee that A will be, is a sufficient cause. Such must at minimum enfold all necessary factors. For instance, for me to exist, I would need my parents and genetic composition, but I would be the same basic core being even if I did not know any of my Grand parents. For my wife, that was the case. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT
KF #321 I cannot find anywhere in this long comment where you show that is self-evident that there must be an enabling condition for an event which takes place in some possible worlds but not others. Clearly pointing to examples will not prove that it is self-evident.Mark Frank
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
04:10 AM
4
04
10
AM
PDT
MF:
It is true as a matter of observation that there are always conditions in place which are necessary for an event to take place in the universe as we know it. However, at the quantum level there appear to be events for which there are no sufficient conditions – the appearance of some elementary particles, the emission of an alpha particle at a particular time.
BTW, who's talking religion? We are talking logic and first principles of reasoning. Let us not cloud matters by injecting issues loaded with all sorts of attitudes. Next, I observe your attempt to limit the import of a key admission: on OBSERVATION, events -- things that have a beginning, by definition -- have underlying conditions that seem to constrain whether they do or don't happen. That is, you admit to observing enabling, ON/OFF necessary conditions for events, as a general pattern. That is exactly what we should expect to see where contingency entails a possible world without an event E, and a possible world with event E, and of course entity N, stemming from the event. That is, we are seeing that there are contingent beings and that absent enabling conditions in ON states, E does not happen and N is not present. Pop to ON, and there's E, there's N, reliably . . . science is built on that at root. Or, there may be a different case, when condition C is on, we have a POPULATION of possible events E1, E2 . . . En, with some sort of statistical distribution. In case Ei, we see Ni, but maybe in case Ej we don't see Ni but Nj. But, absent C being ON, the pop of possibilities P1 vanishes. Cause is still there, just one step back. But, you suggest, there is no SUFFICIENT cause present for Ei to must-be vs Ej. Even were that so, the point still obtains, there are causal factors at work. For something to actually be without cause, it would require that there be no necessary, no sufficient and no contributory causal factors. And, for our purposes, it is quite adequate that we know there is a sufficient cluster of causes for W = the distribution of possibilities, to obtain. Ei vs Ej would be within the sufficient cause for W. But also, SB has a point. There is a world of difference between there is no sufficient set of conditions for Ei, and there is no KNOWN set of conditions. Even, there is no KNOWABLE set for us. And for alpha emission, we have a potential barrier, the tunnelling phenomenon, and the implication that in unstable nuclei, there is a definite rate at which in a population N, a fraction lambda* N will decay per unit time. That is, we have a sufficient causal pattern for a decay pattern. And, we know in that, necessary factors for the decay. None of this undermines the point that causal factors are at work. Much less, the logic on contingency of beings that points to cause as a corollary of the weak form PSR in light of modes of being. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
04:07 AM
4
04
07
AM
PDT
MF: on gOTG issues, the real challenge these days is materialism of the gaps and how dare you question our Promissory Notes . . . we're wearing Lab Coats. More specifically, we have direct experience of the source of FSCO/I, design. We see analysis that makes it maximally implausible that blind chance and mechanical necessity can account for a single case much less a world full of cases. So, we have a right to challenge attempts to convert an empirically and analytically grounded inference to best explanation into an imaginary loaded inference on ignorance to supernatural miracles, and to insist that generally speaking the best empirically grounded explanation of codes, coded algorithmic strings, and execution machinery is design. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
03:37 AM
3
03
37
AM
PDT
Mark
I absolutely accept that the vast majority of events have causes – maybe it will turn out that every event does. What is important is that you need to prove this by repeated observation. It is not self-evident.
Huh? First, we have the repeated observation of quadrillions upon quadrillions of events over thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of years with no known exceptions to the law of causality. Just how much repetition would it require, Mark. Second, first principles cannot be proven in any case. They are the means by which we prove other things. To ask someone to prove a first principle is to reveal a shocking unfamiliarity with the process. Then we have the two unanswered points @316 As I have pointed out, there is no warrant for making the leap from “we haven’t found the cause” to “there is no cause.” Nothing in the structure of a quantum model can justify that leap. Do you have any other arguments? Repeating the same argument does not improve its quality. Even if causality was not a self-evident truth and a mere assumption, it would still be the standard for evaluating evidence. It is not logically possible to reverse the process and reason your way from the evidence to the standard, just as it is not possible to work your way from the evidence to the prior laws of identity or non-contradiction. The thing being judged cannot also be the judge.
I am sorry but I am not going to enter into any further debates with you on this issue.
A wise decision.StephenB
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
03:34 AM
3
03
34
AM
PDT
PPS: Classroom spectrometer stuff video -- a gateway to the quantum world -- notice the flame test. Apply the modes of being causal grid to that quantum world and spot some enabling factors . . .kairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
03:30 AM
3
03
30
AM
PDT
PS: Roll-your own scaled spectroscope, here -- might work in reflection with a CD set up as crude diff grating.kairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
03:13 AM
3
03
13
AM
PDT
MF: Glad to learn of health progress. On cause. Actually, the case I have made strictly is that the [weak form] PSR is patently self-evident, and that once we are sufficiently familiar with modes of being, causality is seen as a direct corollary, applicable to contingent beings. There are indeed uncaused things, necessary beings such as numbers like 2, 3, 5 and propositions such as 2 + 3 = 5. (To get there, start with the empty set {}, assign it as 0 then collect {0} --> 1, and {0, 1} --> 2 etc. Then simply deduce how || + ||| --> |||||. And so forth. Not proofs, again, a drawing out to aid understanding.) Such beings obtain in all possible worlds as one cannot flick off an enabling condition to lock them out. You cannot build and instantiate a possible world without the necessary beings being implicitly present. If -- by contrast -- there is a possible being subject to such enabling conditions then there is a possible world where it would be and there is another such that it would not be. Such is what we mean by contingent being. That enabling condition, we of course label a cause [specifically, a necessary cause]. Let us note Wiki testifying against interest and inviting a possible worlds presentation again:
If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the presence of x. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur.
I daresay, our world c July 1914 -- a terrible time -- was a possible world in which none of us involved were around. Today -- a different possible state of affairs historically derived in part from the world of 1914, we are. And in my case if my Grandpa had not been stabbed in 1912 when he went to volunteer to fight in I think 1914, he may never have been around for my father much less me to have been born. The West India Regiment, after all did see some fighting in WW I as infantry. By contrast, in 1943 if matters had been reversed and it was my Grandpa not my uncle who drowned as a war worker in Connecticut while swimming to rescue people from a boat that swamped [a cold spring and massive muscle contraction] I would still have been possible but would have never met that grandfather. Even as, in the actualised world I have never met that particular uncle. But, well do I recall visiting a Kaiser Bauxite plant, and having a security guard spot family resemblance and corroborate the family story of that uncle. He, too, had been a war worker in WW II. So, discussion on possible worlds can help us understand in light of experience. And it helps us build up our ability to understand. And, given that we tend to have a familiarity problem here, I point to concrete cases by way of clarifying example. The cases do not change the logic, but just as the diagrams in a Geometric proof are helpful by way of imperfect illustration of the strict ideal, the concrete experiences help our understanding. Remember, that which is self-evident, we see as true once we understand it [think, Pons Asinorum], and as what must be true in light of our understanding of the world based on experience of it; where the attempted denial is patently absurd. By contrast we have analytic statements that on reductio ad absurdum are necessarily true, but the path to that necessity via reductio is subtle not patent. Nor, is this a simple or inductive generalisation or inference to best explanation or appeal to experience. Instead I am saying we have active minds that engage the world and develop insight. In the course of which, we are able to understand and see direct consequences. So, for instance, having experience with RA sources behind a lead castle then under a Geiger Counter, spotting the 1/2 life pattern and deducing the influence of background, enables us to understand this quantum phenomenon and have a direct check on error. So, for instance, one who has done the work to set up and blank out background, then sees what happens with a live source understands down in the bones the subtle force of an apparently trivial point: a body of unstable atoms is an enabling factor for the stochastic process of RA decay. And so, whatever else is at work, it is not causeless. Likewise, working through the measurements and deducting for background then allows understanding the reality of 1/2 life, which points to dN/dt = - lambda* N as mathematical pattern. And that has two further consequences. First, we see that we are immediately recognising and using distinctions and associated world-partitions W = { A | NOT_A } We cannot get away from that, it is there all the time. And so, we know that to deride or dismiss the immediate corollaries, LOI, LNC, LEM, is to saw off the branch on which one must sit to do science, including quantum science. These are self-evident. Second, we see that not only do we have enabling causal factors at work, but we see that even in a stochastic case we have a pattern. We may not be able to identify the timing of decay of a given RA atom's nucleus, but we know the population follows a definite stochastic pattern. This means there are sufficient conditions to stamp in that stochastic pattern. Again, causal factors are at work. (And of course, you see some of the reason behind the old gallows humour about telling the physicists from the others at a science convention as they are the ones that glow in the dark.) At a simpler, safer level, much the same can be found by playing with that visible quantum process, a fire, including the colouring of a flame by introducing various elements, and maybe even looking in one of those school lab low cost Edmund Scientific scaled spectroscopes to get an idea of wavelengths of lines that appear. Line spectra of course are one of the key points that grounded Quantum theory. So, we need to have a sufficient base of experience to be able to understand what is being discussed. Then, we can see why certain things are not just provisionally true on experience or the like, but must be so on pain of patent absurdity. BTW, this also shows the blinding ability of paradigm-induced blind spots. It is a fact of experience too, that there is such a thing as clinging to absurdity and the resulting sadly delusional march of folly. Indeed, madness can be contagious as one fool makes many -- ask the ghosts of the Trojans. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
03:00 AM
3
03
00
AM
PDT
Paul #309 I don’t have time to do justice to everything you have written. But I can pick out a few highlights.
Your second point deserves more attention. You are correct that it is easier to copy a design with modification than it is to come up with the entire design, including having the design integrated into a cell. What that means is that if we go the designer route, we must assume that the original designer (although not perhaps the one that made life on earth) was in all probability smarter, or had more time, or both, than we are or do. That points to a deity or deity substitute. Remember, that is supposed to be an attractive option to you.
As I tried to explain before. You can’t assume that what is needed to solve a dramatically more difficult problem is more of what solved the easier problem i.e. more “smartness” whatever that is. For all we know it might turn out that the only way to solve this is through some kind of evolutionary/selection process.
You may not see the force of the argument, but I would advise you to improve your subject matter expertise, and you might be surprised by what you find. ….. Perhaps if you had more subject matter expertise, you might be more impressed. I know that was my experience.
There is only time to become knowledgeable in a limited number of subjects. Some time ago I made a conscious decision not to concern myself too much with whether current science can explain evolution. Even if it doesn’t another explanation my be forthcoming the in the future. I am more interested in how this may or may not lead to the conclusion that there is a designer which is a philosophical/statistical issue.
At this point I would like to address the epithet “God of the gaps” head-on. It sounds like a wonderful argument. But if it is granted that we should never deduce the presence or action of a deity from otherwise unexplained phenomena, it will be impossible to ever deduce the presence or action of a deity. One cannot deduce them from already explained phenomena. The denigration of “God of the gaps” arguments is equivalent to the claim that either no God exists, or that He cannot act in the material world other than by sustaining natural law.
I think the “God of the Gaps” problem goes a bit deeper.  The problem is that it usually amounts to little more than: “An explanation for problem X is that something exists which has the power and motive to solve  problem X”. I imagine you agree that this is a truly unsatisfactory explanation.  There needs to be more to the hypothesis. It needs to be tied to an identified force which has properties other than “has the power to solve this problem” and there has to be some kind of case for linking those other properties to the same force which solved the problem – which in turn implies some other source of evidence. The same thing applies to natural explanations. Ideally there should be some other predictions that can be tested. If Newton had proposed that the reason the apple fell was because there was a force that caused that apple to fall it would have been a joke.  What he proposed was a natural law that could be tested throughout the universe.  Science may invoke specific explanations instead of natural laws e.g. the extra-terrestrial impact explanation for the KT boundary, but these still have implications which can be predicted and tested e.g where was the crater from the impact.Mark Frank
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
02:41 AM
2
02
41
AM
PDT
In physics, a cause is a violation of a conservation principle. The effect is the correction. The interval between a cause and its effect depends on the energies involved. This applies to all phenomena, including inertial motion. Most physicists will tell you with a straight face that a body in inertial motion remains in motion for no reason at all, as if by magic. This is rather unfortunate, IMO, because it blinds science to the true nature of motion. The following is an excerpt from a blog article I wrote on this topic several years ago.
Greek philosopher Aristotle was a fervent believer in cause and effect. He maintained that the natural state of matter was absolute rest and that nothing can move unless it is caused to move. In other words, if an object is caused to move by a force, it will stop moving as soon as the cause is removed. Let me come right out and say that I agree 100% with Aristotle in this regard and I will explain why later. I think it is a shame that subsequent thinkers utterly failed to grok the supreme importance of causality and rejected Aristotle’s motion hypothesis mostly on the basis of the man’s propensity for crackpottery. Aristotle was hard pressed to explain why an arrow kept moving after it was released from an archer’s bow. He offered a cockamamie hypothesis according to which the arrow created a trailing vacuum that pushed it in its direction of travel. He should have kept his mouth shut and admitted that he had no understanding of the actual causal mechanism of movement. I guess that, given the state of knowledge in his day, the man can be forgiven for venturing a made up explanation, especially since nobody at the time could muster a convincing refutation. Needless to say, this and Aristotle’s strange explanations of other natural phenomena did not work in his favor in the eyes of future generations. So out the window, it was, with the bathwater and Aristotle’s baby!
To make a long story short, I argued that the causality of motion forces us to posit that matter is moving in an immense lattice of energetic particles. Everything moves by interacting with the lattice. No lattice = no motion. One day in the not too distant future, we will learn how to tap into this energy field for extremely fast propulsion and practically unlimited energy production.Mapou
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
01:41 AM
1
01
41
AM
PDT
Stephenb I am sorry but I am not going to enter into any further debates with you on this issue. Our ideas of what constitutes a rational argument are just too far apart.Mark Frank
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
01:13 AM
1
01
13
AM
PDT
Piotr I wouldn’t dispute that, but where does it say that every event should have a cause/sufficient One important component of the law of causality is that a cause cannot give what it does not have to give. You can't have more in the effect than was in the cause. Bertrand doesn't cover that ground, but he probably should have.StephenB
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
12:53 AM
12
12
53
AM
PDT
Mark
It is true as a matter of observation that there are always conditions in place which are necessary for an event to take place in the universe as we know it. However, at the quantum level there appear to be events for which there are no sufficient conditions – the appearance of some elementary particles, the emission of an alpha particle at a particular time.
As I have pointed out, there is no warrant for making the leap from “we haven’t found the cause” to “there is no cause.” Nothing in the structure of a quantum model can justify that leap. Do you have any other arguments? Repeating the same argument does not improve its quality. Even if causality was not a self-evident truth and a mere assumption, it would still be the standard for evaluating evidence. It is not logically possible to reverse the process and reason your way from the evidence to the standard, just as it is not possible to work your way from the evidence to the prior laws of identity or non-contradiction. The thing being judged cannot also be the judge.StephenB
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
12:38 AM
12
12
38
AM
PDT
StephenB Note, however, how Wes Bertrand defines the Law of Causality:
Every entity in the universe, including the innumerable relationships of these entities, has a certain identity. From its certain identity, an entity will act accordingly—which is the Law of Causality. An entity will behave only in ways consistent with its nature (its identity). Nothing will ever act in contradiction to its particular identity. For something to act in opposition to its nature is—metaphysically—impossible.
I wouldn't dispute that, but where does it say that every event should have a cause/sufficient reason?Piotr
July 9, 2014
July
07
Jul
9
09
2014
12:13 AM
12
12
13
AM
PDT
kairosfocus:
This is best seen from actual cases, such as fires — which are quantum events [chemical reactions], and nuclear decay. For instance alpha emission from an unstable nucleus is a potential barrier phenomenon and a tunnelling effect. Without the nucleus, there is no possibility of decay — that’s an enabling causal factor. We may not know the sufficient condition that triggers decay, beyond that certain circumstances set up a probability pattern leading to a predictable population effect [e.g. half-life], but the fact is that even without that, we already have a clear causal factor. For something to be without cause, it has to have NO causal factors contributing.
Yes, indeed. Further, we can say that the prospect of any event occurring without a cause is simply not possible in a rational world where things are what they are and not something else. "The laws of Identity and Causality obviously require each other: By determining what something is, we can determine what it will do; by observing what something does in relation to other entities, we can begin to grasp what it is. So, the two Laws are inseparable. One is always involved in the other. Necessarily, any attempt to deny or undermine either of these two fundamental laws is contradictory—it does not follow from valid reasoning, and it is an impossibility given the facts of reality." --Wes BertrandStephenB
July 8, 2014
July
07
Jul
8
08
2014
11:18 PM
11
11
18
PM
PDT
#309 Paul First I apologise for getting your name wrong. I will try to respond but now I am no longer in pain I have a lot of catching up to do and your comment requires a careful response.Mark Frank
July 8, 2014
July
07
Jul
8
08
2014
11:01 PM
11
11
01
PM
PDT
KF 310
MF: I trust things get better.
Much better thanks.
I note that what makes things contingent, appearing in SOME possible worlds but not others, is exactly that something inhibits. This is best seen from actual cases, such as fires — which are quantum events [chemical reactions], and nuclear decay. For instance alpha emission from an unstable nucleus is a potential barrier phenomenon and a tunnelling effect. Without the nucleus, there is no possibility of decay — that’s an enabling causal factor. We may not know the sufficient condition that triggers decay, beyond that certain circumstances set up a probability pattern leading to a predictable population effect [e.g. half-life], but the fact is that even without that, we already have a clear causal factor.
Remember the proposition is that is being debated: The law of causality is self-evident So why are you having to point to examples to provide evidence? I absolutely accept that the vast majority of events have causes – maybe it will turn out that every event does.  What is important is that you need to prove this by repeated observation. It is not self-evident.
For something to be without cause, it has to have NO causal factors contributing. Which is the context of SB’s something from nothing concern. And, that we may not know or be able to know the specific nature of a sufficient cluster does not mean that it does not exist.
It is true as a matter of observation that there are always conditions in place which are necessary for an event to take place in the universe as we know it. However, at the quantum level there appear to be events for which there are no sufficient conditions – the appearance of some elementary particles, the emission of an alpha particle at a particular time.  Of course the religious significance of the law of causality applies to the beginning of the universe which is also the beginning of conditions as we understand them. So given that the law of causality is not self-evident we have no reason to reject the idea that the beginning of universe had neither necessary nor sufficient conditions. It is all beyond the scope of even our imaginations so it is hard to even describe what “cause” means in the context of the beginning of the universe. Mark Frank
July 8, 2014
July
07
Jul
8
08
2014
10:58 PM
10
10
58
PM
PDT
1 4 5 6 7 8 17

Leave a Reply