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Four Flaws With The Argument From Suboptimal Design

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Today I received an inquiry from a friend who is an atheist regarding the question of suboptimal design in nature. He was interested in learning how I would respond to “apparent instances of poor design, both in humans and throughout the animal kingdom.” He gave a few examples, “rang[ing] from technical design flaws such as the recurrent laryngeal nerve, to vestigial features such as the marsupial mole having non-functioning eyes hidden under its skin, to ‘commonsense’ features such as using the same mouth for both eating and breathing, leading to an untold number of deaths through choking.”

In response, I identified four fundamental flaws with the argument from suboptimal design in nature. Here is my reply:

Thanks for your question. It seems to me that there are several flaws with the argument from ‘suboptimal design’ in nature. For one thing, the ability to detect design does not require that the design be optimal. Windows operating systems have many design flaws – but that doesn’t make them any less designed. The argument carries the assumption that the only candidate for designer is an omnipotent and benevolent deity, but this doesn’t necessarily follow. I happen to believe in such a deity (for, in my judgment, good reasons), but I don’t believe that it logically follows from the evidence of design in biology. Even if one is a theist, I see no problem with the position that God may have acted through secondary causes. Perhaps there is some sort of intrinsic teleology built into the world, for instance, that produces the sort of complex specified information we find so abundantly in living systems.

A second problem with the argument is that it assumes that an intelligent cause would have to produce each living thing de novo. But, again, this doesn’t necessarily follow. The theory of ID (as applied to biology) asserts that there are certain features of living systems that bear hallmarks of an intelligent cause, but this does not necessarily entail a rejection of common ancestry. Perhaps there are constraints on design placed by an organism’s evolutionary history. I happen to be skeptical of universal common ancestry, for reasons that I have articulated in my writings. But it isn’t at all incompatible with ID – in fact, many of my colleagues (e.g. Michael Behe) subscribe to common descent. I’m ambivalent on the issue. I can see some defensible arguments for the idea of hereditary continuity, but I can also see severe scientific problems with it. In my opinion, many evolutionary theorists fall victim to confirmation bias here.

Third, the theory of ID does not require that everything in biology be designed. Indeed, designed artifacts may exhibit evidence of weathering – an example of this would be the once-functional vestigial lenses of marsupial moles which are hidden under the skin.

Fourth, the argument often commits what one might describe as an “evolution-of-the-gaps” fallacy. Whereas the “god-of-the-gaps” fallacy states that “evolution can’t explain this; therefore god must have done it,” the converse “evolution-of-the-gaps” fallacy states that “God wouldn’t have done it that way; therefore evolution must have done it.” It is curious that this dichotomous mode of thinking is precisely what ID proponents are often accused of. Much like “god-of-the-gaps” arguments, the “evolution-of-the-gaps” argument has to retreat with advances in scientific knowledge, as biologists uncover important reasons for the way these features have been designed. One example of this would be the once-thought-to-be-prevalent “junk DNA” in our genomes, for which important function is constantly being identified. I would argue that such design reasons or “trade-offs” are plausible for the recurrent laryngeal nerve that you mention (as well as many of the other examples that are traditionally cited). On this subject, I would invite you to read this article (and the links contained therein) by my colleague Casey Luskin.

I hope this answers your question. Feel free to respond to these remarks.

Kind regards,

Jonathan

Comments
Tell me then please, StephenB, what do mousetraps have to do with ‘OoL issues’?
Wut?Genomicus
December 13, 2012
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As to ID having a coherent overarching Theoidicy, one that doesn't dissolve into absurdity as the Darwinian Theodicy does (i.e. man becoming a god unto himself with the resulting holocausts, gulags, killing fields, etc...), Dr. Dembski wrote this summary of his Theodicy argument last year, in trying to reconcile death preceding the fall to an Old Earth:
Old Earth Creationism and the Fall, William Dembski - Christian Research Journal, volume 34, number 4(2011). Excerpt: My solution (to Theodicy) in my book "The End of Christianity is to argue that, just as the effects of salvation at the cross reach both forward in time (saving present day Christians) and backward in time (saving Old Testament saints), so the effects of the fall reach forward in time as well as backward. What makes the argument work is the ability of God to arrange events at one time to anticipate events at a later time.,,, http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAF4344.pdf
Many YECers and Darwinians might scoff that an effect can reach back in time, but actually Dr. Demski's Old Earth Theodicy does have some empirical traction in that it is now shown that a person's conscious (free will) choices do in fact effect past material states: Note: Here’s a recent variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights the ability of the conscious observer to effect 'spooky action into the past', thus further solidifying consciousness's centrality in reality. Furthermore in the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices effect past material states:
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
further notes:
The 'Top Down' Theistic Structure Of The Universe and Of The Human Body https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NhA4hiQnYiyCTiqG5GelcSJjy69e1DT3OHpqlx6rACs/edit
Thus there is nothing inherently contradictory in Dr. Dembski's Theodicy as to reality as a whole, as far as the science itself is concerned, whereas the Darwinian Theodicy, besides not even being a scientific argument in the first place, bears witness to its own abject failure as a coherent worldview (i.e. man becoming a god unto himself):
Documentary Ties Darwin to Disastrous Social Consequences - What Hath Darwin Wrought? - Sept. 2010 http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201009.htm#20100927a From Darwin to Hitler - Professor Richard Weikart lecture - 1 hour video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A
Verse and music:
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." 4him - The Little Drummer Boy - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozvi5Wqj8eI
bornagain77
December 13, 2012
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is that third base or left field?Mung
December 13, 2012
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“Torture, rape, terrorism, fascism, etc. are all human designs made possible by humans and their free-will decisions. God is not responsible for them. Also, they have nothing to do with OOL issues. One of the ways that God created humans in His image was to equip them with causal powers, which would mean that their sub-optimal designs, which can result from fallible striving, irrational thinking, or immoral willing, are no reproach on Divine goodness.” - StephenB On this statement, we are fully in agreement. Tell me then please, StephenB, what do mousetraps have to do with ‘OoL issues’? Nothing, right – are we agreed? Yes, we should be. But you’ve got a hitch in your ‘theory/paradigm’ that you don’t seem to want to shake. It is called 'analogy' and is promoted by Meyer's 'historical sciences.' Do mousetraps have anything directly to do with ID theory, with ID as a paradigm, with ID as a ‘methodology’ focussed on OoL, OoBI, Human Origins – Yes or No? Fuller offers you an out; Big-ID theory functions on the assumption of the imago Dei. But you haven’t openly admitted/accepted that yet. Wrt pitting ‘interdisciplinary dialogue’ vs. ‘interdisciplinary methodology’ you are simply out of your league. There are many interdisciplinary methods used daily by scientists and scholars around the world. Literature reviews, experiments, interviews, surveys are four obvious examples. “each discipline employs its own methods” – StephenB Yes, hello, welcome to the field known as PoS, impoverished as it is in the USA! There are also shared methods, i.e. interdisciplinary methods, which you categorically deny, but which nevertheless quite obviously exist. Please stop claims that you have recently been ‘dancing with unicorns’ in denying this. It would likewise be absurd to say there are as many methods as there are disciplines. But that’s what you seem to be saying. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you. Why can “a theologian, a scientist, and a philosopher” *not* share a methodology? Can he or she not be the same person, all three at the same time? That sounds like dogmatic ‘methodism’ over personality, rather than open-mindedness with a heart for integration and holistic thinking. Do you see better now why I place such emphasis on ideology as a reflexive influence on our communication? You are not a scientist, StephenB. Yet you claim to be able to ‘explain’ scientific methodology to someone who not only studies it professionally, but also does it. That’s very presumptuous! “If it means interdisciplinary dialogue between theology and science, a very practical idea, I suspect that most ID proponents would be on board with it.” - StephenB Then please do tell, why-oh-why do ID proponents at UD, including the IDM marginal ringleader Timaeus among them, again and again and again insist on the ID-is-science-only trope? If you truly think it is a ‘very practical idea,’ then please do tell: what does ID have to do with theology, StephenB? You've been impressively open about this in recent days, but not quite ready to accept the consequences. The interdisciplinary dialogue you seek simply cannot start with ID’s total exclusion from theology by 'science-only' Big-ID activism. Bending yourself to methodism is likewise not the best answer. “ID, from a scientific perspective, could, as Meyer suggests, “adjudicate” between different conceptions of theodicy by suggesting that some accounts fit the empirical evidence better than others.” – StephenB Do please give an example of what you mean wrt ‘theodicy’ using ‘empirical evidence’. Steve Meyer has so far failed to do this, even if he agrees with it in principle. His talk, like much spoken in the IDM, appears to have gotten well ahead of his walk. Thanks, Gr.Gregory
December 13, 2012
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| | | Gregory | | | | | | | | | | |____ |home| |plate |_____________________________Eric Anderson
December 13, 2012
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Please offer an example of “things that weren’t ‘designed’.” – Gregory to Jon “Easy, if you can just name me a few things that weren’t created by the one who made “the heavens and the earth and everything in them”.” – Jon to Gregory Were/are your sins, Jon, were/are mankind’s sins (in action) ‘created by God’? Did God ‘design’ your sins, mankind’s sins that you would robotically/automatically act on them? What would Calvin do (WWCD) if asked this question? You’re offering only a ‘theological’ approach to ‘design,’ Jon, which differs remarkably from the so-called ‘natural scientific’ approach (OoL, OoBI, Human Origins) preached by Big-ID leaders. You have no ‘scientific’ evidence of ‘design’ to offer, only ‘intuition.’ Are you willing to admit this at UD? I jumped on the following because you said: “You can only call it suboptimnal if you recognise it was designed.” But since you personally think that *EVERYTHING* is ‘designed/created’ the point of your argument holds a different meaning. I don’t seek to contradict your theological viewpoint, but please realise that what you mean by (small-id) design has nothing to do with Big-ID (i.e. ‘design’ + ‘intelligence’ as a strictly ‘[natural] scientific’ hypothesis) as it is currently envisioned by the IDM. Your appeal against ‘postmodern Orthodoxy’ (capital O, said by a small-o believer) reveals your theology-first approach. What would be foolish would be to pretend you support Big-ID’s science-first, oftentimes, science-only approach to ‘design/Design.’ The reality is that you acknowledge the same thing I do and which Steve Fuller does; that 'intelligent design' is an integrative science, philosophy, theology conversation first and foremost. Fuller showed how wrong the IDM's 'science-only' approach to ‘design/Design’ actually is and why it is not necessary to believe that. You think *EVERYTHING* was ‘designed,’ Jon, because you believe in God (causality-connectedness). That way of thinking is simply *not* acceptable as a ‘natural scientific’ theory. Yet what the IDM banks its ‘theory’ on is that it is a natural scientific alternative to neo-Darwinism, first of all in biology. Occam razed that; what could make it clearer?Gregory
December 13, 2012
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Gregory:
The biggest problem isn’t ‘suboptimal design’ in biology. It is Abu Ghraid, Agent Orange, artificial viruses, bankruptcy, collusion, torture, rape, terrorism, fascism, name your evil; this is ALL ‘intelligently designed.’ Big-ID theory has no answers for these things and chooses silence instead, hiding behind ‘Origins of Life’ platitudes and speculation. Neo-Darwinism as biological theory is a small fish to fry, but ‘light the fires’ (of anti-Darwin heresy) is what IDists prefer to do anyway.
Torture, rape, terrorism, fascism, etc. are all human designs made possible by humans and their free-will decisions. God is not responsible for them. Also, they have nothing to do with OOL issues. One of the ways that God created humans in His image was to equip them with causal powers, which would mean that their sub-optimal designs, which can result from fallible striving, irrational thinking, or immoral willing, are no reproach on Divine goodness.
Why else do you think Stephen Meyer was seduced by Steve Fuller’s convincing logic (even, as reported, to you!) about ‘theodicy’ and why he thinks ID theory should relate to it? Meyer intuits this (he’s a person, after all, not a god), but has no Big-ID ‘scientific’ explanation to show for it.
Meyer was not being "seduced." Everything turns on what you mean by the weasel word “relate.” If it means interdisciplinary dialogue between theology and science, a very practical idea, I suspect that most ID proponents would be on board with it. This is what Steve Meyer was signing on to. That is what I sign on to. In that sense, ID, from a scientific perspective, could, as Meyer suggests, “adjudicate” between different conceptions of theodicy by suggesting that some accounts fit the empirical evidence better than others. If, on the other hand, “relate” means interdisciplinary methodology-- a very impractical idea-- then that would be an altogether different matter. I recall explaining this to you more than once. Do you know what scientific methodology means? It appears not. There can be no integrated ID/Theology/Philosophy methodology because each discipline employs its own methods. When a theologian, a scientist, and a philosopher compare notes, they do so by “relating” individual findings arrived at through specialized methodologies. What they do not do is try to conceive of one methodology that would provide a Theological/Philosophical/Scientific conclusion.StephenB
December 13, 2012
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Good response as always Jonathan. I dealt with this very question in one of my CrEvo rants because I hear this "suboptimal" claim alll the time. As a robotics engineer, I learned the hard way not to criticize other designs. Why? It was arrogant and ignorant. In this case, the arrogance and ignorance is astonishing: Not one of these critics can build even a single living cell, let alone an entire multicelled organism like a human being - so on what grounds do they stand to make criticism? Such criticisms are astonishingly arrogant and ignorant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns0KpZJE9F4ianjuby
December 13, 2012
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We are far from understanding the complexity of individual organisms, let alone the entire ecosystem in which that organism lives. What appears to be less than optimal design to us with our limited knowledge may actually be an optimal design when the entire system is considered. Consider the thickness of armor plating on the side of a warship. Since the purpose of such plating is to protect the ship from the puncture of an incoming warhead, it is advantageous to make the plating as thick as possible. Yet the plating on actual warships is much thinner than it could be made. The reason is, of course, that an increase in plating thickness makes the ship heavier, and thus slower. A less movable ship is more likely to get hit more often and less likely to get to where it is needed when it is needed. The actual thickness of the armor on a warship is a tradeoff -- not so thin as to make the ship too easily sinkable, and not so thick as to make the ship too slow. We know too little about the complexity of organisms and the environment in which they live to conclude that any one particular feature is actually less than optimal. ~ Kurt Wisebevets
December 13, 2012
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Four reasons for apparent suboptimal design in biology: 4. Loss of original function - blind cave fish, for example. 3. Degraded design - accumulated deleterious mutations. Closely related to #4. 2. Design compromises - all design requires the balancing of competing priorities. You can't optimize everything. 1. The Arrogance of Ignorance - "If I can't understand it, it must be wrong." So-called "junk" DNA, for example.sagebrush gardener
December 13, 2012
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If the design is optimal/perfect, we're told that's what evolution does, makes optimal/perfect adaptations, ain't evolution grand. If the design is sub-optimal/not-perfect, we're told that's exactly what we should expect if evolution is true. Evolution makes sub-optimal/non-perfect adaptations, evolution by kludge, ain't evolution grand.Mung
December 13, 2012
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Gregory:
The biggest problem isn’t ‘suboptimal design’ in biology. It is Abu Ghraid, Agent Orange, artificial viruses, bankruptcy, collusion, torture, rape, terrorism, fascism, name your evil; this is ALL ‘intelligently designed.’ Big-ID theory has no answers for these things and chooses silence instead, hiding behind ‘Origins of Life’ platitudes and speculation.
Nor does gravity have answers for these things :( OMGZ let's change what the theory of gravity is supposed to be all about :DGenomicus
December 13, 2012
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Graham2 @22:
Oh, I see the problem. The great designer (like Toyota,Apple etc) is simply less than perfect, and so capable of making mistakes. Is that it ? In the case of the former, of course this is reasonable, but in the latter a bit problematic. Does it make sense to you that the great designer could design all life on Earth, but screw up one lousy nerve ?
It really is all about the theology for you, isn't it? If anyone had any doubts about the real basis for the suboptimal design argument, you have removed those doubts. For the onlookers who have any question about Jonathan's OP argument, I would point to this exchange with you and say "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, behold Exhibit A." Wait a minute . . . You're not a plant from Jonathan to prove his point are you? :) On a more serious note, one of the keys to getting past the rhetorical barriers one is laboring under is to recognize them. In all sincerity I hope this exchange has helped you realize that your position on this issue has indeed been a theological/philosophical one, rather than a logical or empirical one. Perhaps in some small way that will prompt you to step back and look at the issue in a new light. Hopefully right now, but if not, then perhaps over time. ----- (Oh, and as you consider this further in the future, please keep in mind all the other potential reasons for suboptimality several of us have now listed several times. You have been so focused on the argument for poor design not meeting your expectations about what you think the design should look like if it were designed by your conception of the (non-existent) designer, that you have completely ignored all the other perfectly legitimate reasons there is sometimes suboptimality in biology.)Eric Anderson
December 13, 2012
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OT: Looks like someone may have read Stephen Meyer's "Signature In The Cell": New Way to Look at Dawn of Life: Focus Shifts from 'Hardware' to 'Software' - Dec. 12, 2012 Excerpt: Focusing on informational development helps move away from some of the inherent disadvantages of trying to pin down the beginnings of chemical life. "Chemical based approaches," Walker said, "have stalled at a very early stage of chemical complexity -- very far from anything we would consider 'alive.' More seriously they suffer from conceptual shortcomings in that they fail to distinguish between chemistry and biology." "To a physicist or chemist life seems like 'magic matter,'" Davies explained. "It behaves in extraordinary ways that are unmatched in any other complex physical or chemical system. Such lifelike properties include autonomy, adaptability and goal-oriented behavior -- the ability to harness chemical reactions to enact a pre-programmed agenda, rather than being a slave to those reactions." "We believe the transition in the informational architecture of chemical networks is akin to a phase transition in physics, and we place special emphasis on the top-down information flow in which the system as a whole gains causal purchase over its components," Davies added. "This approach will reveal how the logical organization of biological replicators differs crucially from trivial replication associated with crystals (non-life). By addressing the causal role of information directly, many of the baffling qualities of life are explained." The authors expect that, by re-shaping the conceptual landscape in this fundamental way, not just the origin of life, but other major transitions will be explained, for example, the leap from single cells to multi-cellularity. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121212205918.htmbornagain77
December 13, 2012
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OT: The Intersection of Science and Faith - Craig Hazen - video http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/17390/bornagain77
December 13, 2012
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Gregory You want me, for some reason, to name things that weren't designed. Easy, if you can just name me a few things that weren't created by the one who made "the heavens and the earth and everything in them." But you make it sound like a catch question. Do you know a few things that God didn't make that will make me seem foolish for saying that he creates and sustains everything in being? Has that become controversial in postmodern Orthodoxy?Jon Garvey
December 13, 2012
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Graham2:
I have no idea if 2 mouths would be better than 1, but the laryngeal nerve seems to be pretty obvious.
LoL! Only "obvious" to someone who doesn't understand nerves nor design. Let's see Graham2 design something better starting with a single cell and having it develop into an organism without that nerve taking that route.Joe
December 13, 2012
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Graham2,
No it isn't theological. EG: If Toyota were to produce a really great car, but with (say) crummy seats, I would be surprised. It simply doesn't make sense.
No one is saying (at least I'm not) that sub-optimal design is not a problem. Do you think when my wife was dying of cancer in her 30s that I didn't wonder why the magnificient world God created would be marred by cancer? But I'm just too logical a person to think, because this car has crummy seats, it was the result of unintelligent processes alone. I can understand why people who go through such experiences doubt that God cares about them, believe me. But even in my worst moments I was never tempted to conclude that, because something terrible can go wrong with it, the human body is the result of purely unintelligent processes like natural selection. I'm just too logical for such an illogical conclusion, maybe it's my training in mathematics.Granville Sewell
December 13, 2012
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Gregory:
Please offer an example of “things that weren’t ‘designed’.”
OK- the pattern of leaves on my lawn. The pattern of stones on my driveway. The pattern of clouds in the sky. The waves on the ocean. The pattern waves make in the sand. The dust bunnies under my daughter's bed. Do you want more or is that enough?Joe
December 13, 2012
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Your view is incoherent, Jon. There is nothing 'ad hominem' about what I wrote. Such an accusation is base. I've witnessed this kind of evasion countless times - when people simply don't want to answer your challenge, they accuse you of 'ad hominem,' as if having taken a philosophy 101 class excuses their incoherence. Repeat ('magic word' included): Please offer an example of "things that weren’t ‘designed’." Anything. Can you? Will you? I don't think you will. And there is a blatantly theological reason for this that has nothing to do with your (or anyone else's) knowledge of science. This situation paints the sub-optimal argument for supposedly scientifically detectable 'design in nature' in a different colour. And it gets at the heart of what an appropriate meaning of 'designism' might look like, an ideology which many IDists and Protestant Reformationists who follow them have fallen into. Since you have already expressed reluctance to accept the so-called 'natural scientificity' of Big-ID on your blog (but you don't distinguish Big-ID from small-id there), I don't see why this should be so hard to admit. Theology is important re: your view of 'design/Design,' right?Gregory
December 13, 2012
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Eric Anderson you state that: "in this case I might have to just bookmark this page" If there is just one reference that I cited that I wish people would take a special look at, it is this video:
The Descent of Darwin – Pastor Joe Boot – (The Theodicy of Darwinism) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKJqk7xF4-g
This video finally brought home for me (an AHA moment) the overall lesson that Dr. Hunter has been stressing over the years. The lesson that Darwinism is deeply rooted in, and indeed born out of, sophomoric Theodicy and not from any unbiased practice of science.bornagain77
December 13, 2012
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Gregory Your personally-motivated remarks make even less sense on this blog than they do on mine. I really don't think I post here nearly often enough for anyone to appreciate, let alone understand, your ad hominems.Jon Garvey
December 13, 2012
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Graham you state:
it (Theodicy) isnt a central plank of Biology, its not needed to justify Evolution (there is more than enough evidence for that),
Okie Dokie, I'll bite. Please cite just one example, out of this "more than enough evidence" that you have alluded to, of just a one molecular machine arising by purely material processes so as to, in your words, 'justify Evolution' scientifically and dismiss the charge against you, and other Darwinists, that you guys are arguing from a primarily theological basis, a theological basis with no real support in empirical evidence: notes: In spite of the fact of finding molecular motors permeating the simplest of bacterial life, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of even one such motor or system.
"There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist
The following expert doesn't even hide his very unscientific preconceived philosophical bias against intelligent design,,,
‘We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity,,,
Yet at the same time the same expert readily admits that neo-Darwinism has ZERO evidence for the chance and necessity of material processes producing any cellular system whatsoever,,,
,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA Michael Behe - No Scientific Literature For Evolution of Any Irreducibly Complex Molecular Machines http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5302950/ “The response I have received from repeating Behe's claim about the evolutionary literature, which simply brings out the point being made implicitly by many others, such as Chris Dutton and so on, is that I obviously have not read the right books. There are, I am sure, evolutionists who have described how the transitions in question could have occurred.” And he continues, “When I ask in which books I can find these discussions, however, I either get no answer or else some titles that, upon examination, do not, in fact, contain the promised accounts. That such accounts exist seems to be something that is widely known, but I have yet to encounter anyone who knows where they exist.” David Ray Griffin - retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology
of related note to the fact that Darwinists have ZERO empirical evidence of Darwinian processes EVER producing a molecular machine, here is a recent example that intelligent design can do as such:
(Man-Made) DNA nanorobot – video https://vimeo.com/36880067
further notes: The following article has a list of 40 (yes, 40) irreducibly complex molecular machines in the cell that have been discovered thus far in the cell:
Molecular Machines in the Cell - http://www.discovery.org/a/14791
Here are a few animations of different machines in the cell:
Astonishing Molecular Machines – Drew Berry http://www.metacafe.com/w/6861283 Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994630 Powering the Cell: Mitochondria - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrS2uROUjK4 Molecular Machine - Nuclear Pore Complex - Stephen C. Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4261990 Kinesin Linear Motor - Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOeJwQ0OXc4 The Virus - Assembly Of A Molecular "Lunar Landing" Machine - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4023122
bornagain77
December 13, 2012
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Oh, I see the problem. The great designer (like Toyota,Apple etc) is simply less than perfect, and so capable of making mistakes. Is that it ? In the case of the former, of course this is reasonable, but in the latter a bit problematic. Does it make sense to you that the great designer could design all life on Earth, but screw up one lousy nerve ? Im tempted to point out that just about everyone here thinks the great designer is god, but I wont.Graham2
December 12, 2012
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No, it isnt theological, just logical. Eg: if Toyota were to produce a really great car, but with (say) crummy seats, I would be surprised. It simply doesnt make sense.
Well, maybe you just need more experience then. You don't think Toyota's ever done a recall? :) It would be surprising to see Apple make a really hot new iPhone that is incredibly sleek and well-designed and yet somehow screw up the antenna in the process. It would be surprising to see a hugely sophisticated program will millions of lines of intricate code, say the Windows operating system, yet still have bugs in it. It would be surprising to see any company spend thousands of man-hours and millions of dollars producing a product and yet also have design flaws that would force a product recall. Poor, inconsistent design happens all the time. There isn't anything at all surprising about it. The astounding thing about biology is that there is so little of it.
Theres nothing theological about it at all. Just like the car company, you expect some consistency simply because inconsistency is illogical.
Sorry, but the only way your expectations have any merit whatsoever is if they are tied to some assumptions about the designer's capability and intent. That most certainly does not follow from logic, as much as you would like to think it does. It follows only from your expectations about what you think the (non-existent) designer would be like if the designer existed. And that is just the limited point about poor design. We still have lots of other options for suboptimality, including breakdown, degradation over time, chance processes, etc. If we're going to refute design in biology we're going to have to do much better than that. So far we haven't even come close to making a reasonable objection against design based on suboptimality.Eric Anderson
December 12, 2012
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Eric, No, it isnt theological, just logical. Eg: if Toyota were to produce a really great car, but with (say) crummy seats, I would be surprised. It simply doesnt make sense. Its true that I dont know the mind of the designer, and so I cant possibly be certain that she must ensure that everything is perfect, but I would be very surprised to see such great stuff next to the dodgy bits. Theres nothing theological about it at all. Just like the car company, you expect some consistency simply because inconsistency is illogical. I dont know how to make myself any clearer.Graham2
December 12, 2012
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Graham2:
Why in blue blazes should a great designer in the sky produce all the great stuff we see, then chuck in some dodgy bits of design as well ? It just doesnt make sense, unless you can propose a reason for it.
Two quick points: 1. Your statement, notwithstanding your protestations, is indeed theological. "Great designer in the sky"? "It just doesn't make sense?" It doesn't make sense to you because you are making theological assumptions about who the designer is and what the designer would do if the designer were who you think the designer is. In contrast to your theological statement, there are plenty of decent logical reasons that make sense for suboptimal design, as I've already said: poor design, broken design, clever adaptation, accidental assemblage, some combination of the foregoing. 2. Since you seem to think that a suboptimal design is "evidence" for the material evolution storyline, I presume you are also willing to count the far more numerous examples of exquisite engineering -- "all the great stuff we see" as you put it -- as evidence for purposeful design?Eric Anderson
December 12, 2012
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A very commonly held assumption is that if you attribute anything to God, you have to attribute everything to him. Just doesn't follow, logically.Granville Sewell
December 12, 2012
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Eric, 1. I am assuming the design is sub-optimal. There may be some subtle reason for its circuitous path, my wisdom isnt infinite, but it appears sub-optimal. (Casey Luskin notwithstanding). 2. This isnt enough for me to conclude all the things you cite. Its just another piece of evidence. The whole business of sub-optimal design shouldnt get you so excited, it isnt a central plank of Biology, its not needed to justify Evolution (there is more than enough evidence for that), its just nice to see that we see what we expect to see. Regarding all the blather about 'theological prejudice', its nothing of the sort. Its just simple logic. Why in blue blazes should a great designer in the sky produce all the great stuff we see, then chuck in some dodgy bits of design as well ? It just doesnt make sense, unless you can propose a reason for it. Can you ?.Graham2
December 12, 2012
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Graham2: Assuming for sake of argument that the laryngeal nerve as it exists today exhibits inefficient engineering: 1. Are you arguing that the laryngeal nerve is suboptimal? 2. Or are you arguing that the laryngeal nerve is suboptimal, therefore there is no purposeful design anywhere in biology, anywhere in life, and by the way, God does not exist? The first is fine. We can have a discussion about whether it is suboptimal or not and we could perhaps even conclude that it might be a poor design, a broken design, a clever adaptation, an accidental assemblage, or some combination of the above. The second is a combination of unfounded speculation, wild extrapolation, and poor philosophy/theology.Eric Anderson
December 12, 2012
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