Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has The Skeptical Zone Finally Earned its Name

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Perhaps.  Its founder is preaching materialist heresy.

In a post over at The Skeptical Zone Elizabeth Liddle joins the ranks of our opponents who are finally admiting that biological design inferences are not invalid in principle.  She writes:

Has Barry finally realised that those of us who oppose the ideas of Intelligent Design proponents do not dispute that it is possible, in principle, to make a reasonable inference of design?  That rather our opposition is based on the evidence and argument advanced, not on some principled (or unprincipled!) objection to the entire project?

EL, welcome to the ranks of biological design theorists, by which I mean that group of people willing to follow the evidence for (or against) design in biology wherever it leads.

There is more good news.  EL quoted me when I set forth the following objection ID proponents often get:  “All scientific claims must employ methodological naturalism, and you violate the principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology.”

EL writes:

Yes, indeed, Barry.  It is not a valid objection . . . There is nothing wrong with making a design inference in principle. We do it all the time, as IDists like to point out.  And there’s nothing wrong with making it in biology, at least in principle.  There is certainly nothing that violates the “principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology”

There is even more good news.  EL rejects the idea that one most know who the designer is before one can infer design:

The objection to ID by people like me . . .  is not that it is impossible that terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent, nor that it would be necessarily impossible to discover that it was, nor even, I suggest, impossible to infer a designer even if we had no clue as to who the designer might be (although that might make it trickier).

She even agrees that biological design inferences can be made without invoking any supernatural agent:

If Barry means that we can only infer natural, not supernatural, design, he is absolutely correct

I have been saying biological ID infers merely “design” and not supernatural design for several years.  I am glad it has finally sunk it.

More good news.  EL quotes me again:  “You agree with us that it is the EVIDENCE that is important, and objections thrown up for the purpose of ruling that evidence out of court before it is even considered are invalid.”

And she agrees:

Yes, it is the EVIDENCE that is important,

Then she runs of the rails:

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

EL writes this sentence as if biological ID theory posits a supernatural designer.  Sigh.  Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.

Then back to good news:

EL says she does not object to the broader ID project

. . . as stated in the UD FAQ:  In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.

Wow.  Yes, that is EL folks.  Don’t believe me, follow the link and check it out yourself.

As I write this her post has gotten over 750 comments, some of which are very interesting.

The first one is EL’s own:

And that’s my point, really – that it’s perfectly possible to test ID hypotheses (small case id I guess) because you can test specific predictions arising from specific hypothesised scenarios.

ID opponent Glen Davidson joins the bandwagon and even adds an area of biological design that has received too little attention:

It is done in biology in fact as well as in principle. Genetic engineering can often be detected, and certainly would be searched for in the case of any biologic warfare. I wouldn’t particularly disagree with Allan Miller so long as there is no context, but, within known context, we can find telltale evidence of genetic tampering or of domestication.

Our William J. Murray jumps in with this zinger:

REC and Moran say they can detect convincing indications of design by intelligence …. what are their definitions and methodology? I mean, isn’t that what you guys always ask ID advocates?

A heaping helping of hypocrisy anyone?  🙂

Our old foe Kantian Naturalist agrees with EL!

I concur with the general sentiments expressed here.

EL even comes up with a not-half-bad definition of “intelligence” for the “I” in ID.

an entity with a human-like type capacity to invent things

EL then writes:

I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis. That was one of the points I was making in the OP.

I am not quite sure how she squares that with what she wrote before (which seemed to imply that she believes the “D” in ID is always posited to be supernatural agent even though all ID proponents say otherwise):

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

KN makes an astute observation:

I also think, quite frankly, that Dembski and Behe are also methodological naturalists (on my suggestion of what that concept means), and this comes out in their refusal to identify the putative designer(s) with any deity or deities. ID is consistent with methodological naturalism — as well as consistent with metaphysical naturalism.

Comments
Zachriel:
Of course biological design can be detectable.
Of course biological design has been detected.
For instance, if the organism is one that has no plausible evolutionary ancestors, such as a griffin, then it may indicate design.
ID is not anti-evolution but you are an equivocating coward.
Of course, to confirm this hypothesis, we would look for other evidence;
We have found such evidence in physics, chemistry, cosmology and geology.
If there is an phenomenon thought to be designed, then that would lead to additional hypotheses, in particular, about the nature of the design.
That's fine as ID is about the detection and study of the design.
However, positing an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent designer has no distinct entailments, and is unfalsifiable.
ID is about the DESIGN, not the designer.
The usual. Hypothesis-testing with various methodologies. The direct entailments concerning the discovery of a hypothesized design are the links of causation from the artisan to the art to the artifact; the who, what, when, where, why, and how. Absent these, the original contention is probably unsupportable.
Only a scientifically illiterate punk would spew such nonsense. The "the who, what, when, where, why, and how" all come AFTER design has been detected and are not required to detect design. And that proves that ID is not a scientific dead-end as it obviously opens up new questions that we will try to answer.Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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Then: No real scientists believe ID. Now: We never said that! Then:"Darwinism" isn't a term any real scientist uses. Now: We never said that! Then: "Microevolution" and "macroevolution" are terms only creationists uses. Now: We never said that! Then: You can't locate ID because you can't even define I (intelligence). Now: We never said that! Then: You must know the designer and/or his methods before you can infer design. Now: We never said that! Then: ID is just designer of the gaps filling in for unknown natural causes. Now: We never said that! These guys are unbelievable.William J Murray
November 23, 2015
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Zachriel, "Of course biological design can be detectable. For instance, if the organism is one that has no plausible evolutionary ancestors, such as a griffin, then it may indicate design." You are saying this only because you are sure there are no griffins. You only don't realize that this is exactly what puts what you think you are supporting into the 'non-science' box. Evolutionism cannot be falsified! Anything can be described as having evolved. Common descent has nothing to do with refuting or proving design. It is a different matter altogether. You seem to be excluding the possibility of common descent being a means of design. I personally have serious issues with common descent but they are theological and therefore of much more serious nature than scientific. However, speaking from the scientific standpoint, I cannot see why it could not have been a means of design at least in certain cases.EugeneS
November 23, 2015
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William J Murray: Now, look for them to deny they ever denied that design could be detected. That's funny. http://rarearchitecturaldrawings.com/empire-state-building.html http://bigappled.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ESB5.jpgZachriel
November 23, 2015
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In his book "Signature in the Cell" Stephen C. Meyer addresses the issue of Intelligent Design and religion:
First, by any reasonable definition of the term, intelligent design is not "religion".- page 441 under the heading Not Religion
He goes on say pretty much the same thing I hve been saying for years- ID doesn't say anything about worship- nothing about who, how, why, when, where to worship- nothing about any service- nothing about any faith nor beliefs except the belief we (humans) can properly assess evidence and data and properly process information. After all the design inference is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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Now, look for them to deny they ever denied that design could be detected. Just like they deny there was ever a global cooling scare. Just like they deny Darwin ever had a problem with the fossil record. As I said in the other thread: Atheist/materialist scientist says, "Looks like design to me." = Science Theist scientist says "Looks like design to me." = FUNDAMENTALIST CREATIONISTS ARE DESTROYING SCIENCE AND TRYING TO IMPOSE A THEOCRACY ON THE WORLD!!!William J Murray
November 23, 2015
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"The Design Revolution", page 25, Dembski writes:
Intelligent Design has theological implications, but it is not a theological enterprise. Theology does not own intelligent design. Intelligent design is not a evangelical Christian thing, or a generally Christian thing or even a generally theistic thing. Anyone willing to set aside naturalistic prejudices and consider the possibility of evidence for intelligence in the natural world is a friend of intelligent design.
He goes on to say:
Intelligent design requires neither a meddling God nor a meddled world. For that matter, it doesn't even require there be a God.
Virgil Cain
November 23, 2015
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Barry Arrington: welcome to the ranks of biological design theorists, by which I mean that group of people willing to follow the evidence for (or against) design in biology wherever it leads. Of course biological design can be detectable. For instance, if the organism is one that has no plausible evolutionary ancestors, such as a griffin, then it may indicate design. Of course, to confirm this hypothesis, we would look for other evidence; perhaps the existence of an imaginative creature from the same planet. Barry Arrington: EL rejects the idea that one most know who the designer is before one can infer design If there is an phenomenon thought to be designed, then that would lead to additional hypotheses, in particular, about the nature of the design{er}. The ability to test those hypotheses, and the results of such tests, would impact the original hypothesis of design. In other words, there is a tapestry of evidence, not an isolated, wipe your hands and go home conclusion. Barry Arrington: She even agrees that biological design inferences can be made without invoking any supernatural agent The distinction between natural and supernatural is not clearly defined. However, positing an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent designer has no distinct entailments, and is unfalsifiable. Barry Arrington: Our William J. Murray jumps in with this zinger:
REC and Moran say they can detect convincing indications of design by intelligence …. what are their definitions and methodology? I mean, isn’t that what you guys always ask ID advocates?
The usual. Hypothesis-testing with various methodologies. The direct entailments concerning the discovery of a hypothesized design are the links of causation from the artisan to the art to the artifact; the who, what, when, where, why, and how. Absent these, the original contention is probably unsupportable. Meanwhile, the Intelligent Design movement is scientifically sterile.Zachriel
November 23, 2015
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Barry:
Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.
Bob:
And yet Dr. Dembski famously wrote “Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory.”
Liddle:
I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis.
Bob:
I agree with Elizabeth Liddle’s statement
Bob agrees with me (and Liddle) on the general issue: ID is not a religious theory. Then why the gotcha zinger about Dembski? I guess Bob just couldn’t resist throwing out the "ID is religion in a cheap tuxedo" meme -- even when he admits it is false. That makes you pathetic liar in addition to being a hypocrite Bob.Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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Way to dodge the questions Bob. When Richard Dawkins says "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist" does that mean that Darwinism is about atheism? Unless you answer "yes" to that question, you are nothing but a hypocrite Bob. Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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Hypocritical much Bob? Darwinism would collapse without its faulty Theological foundation.
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species - STEPHEN DILLEY Abstract This essay examines Darwin's positiva (or positive) use of theology in the first edition of the Origin of Species in three steps. First, the essay analyses the Origin's theological language about God's accessibility, honesty, methods of creating, relationship to natural laws and lack of responsibility for natural suffering; the essay contends that Darwin utilized positiva theology in order to help justify (and inform) descent with modification and to attack special creation. Second, the essay offers critical analysis of this theology, drawing in part on Darwin's mature ruminations to suggest that, from an epistemic point of view, the Origin's positiva theology manifests several internal tensions. Finally, the essay reflects on the relative epistemic importance of positiva theology in the Origin's overall case for evolution. The essay concludes that this theology served as a handmaiden and accomplice to Darwin's science. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=376799F09F9D3CC8C2E7500BACBFC75F.journals?aid=8499239&fileId=S000708741100032X Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740
I like Egnor's maxim much better since it is based on good science and not on bad theology.
"Nothing in biology makes sense without inference to functional biological information." Michael Egnor - Life Is a "Distinguished Outcome" - November 20, 2015 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/life_is_a_disti101061.html "Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint, and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it, the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today." Ruse, M., How evolution became a religion: creationists correct? Darwinians wrongly mix science with morality, politics, National Post, pp. B1, B3, B7 (May 13, 2000) "Instead of presenting scientific evidence that shows atheism to be true (or probable), the neo-atheists moralize about how much better the world would be if only atheism were true. Far from demonstrating that God does not exist, the neo-atheists merely demonstrate how earnestly they desire that God not exist.8 The God of Christianity is, in their view, the worst thing that could befall reality. According to Richard Dawkins, for instance, the Judeo-Christian God “is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic homophobic racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”9 Dawkins’s obsession with the Christian God borders on the pathological. Yet, he underscores what has always been the main reason people reject God: they cannot believe that God is good. Eve, in the Garden of Eden, rejected God because she thought he had denied her some benefit that she should have, namely, the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. 10 Clearly, a God who denies creatures benefits that they think they deserve cannot be good. Indeed, a mark of our fallenness is that we fail to see the irony in thus faulting God. Should we not rather trust that the things God denies us are denied precisely for our benefit? Likewise, the neo-atheists find lots of faults with God, their list of denied benefits being much longer than Eve’s—no surprise here since they’ve had a lot longer to compile such a list!" William Dembski - pg. 10-11 - Finding a Good God in an evil World http://designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf The Descent of Darwin (The Faulty Theological Foundation of Darwinism) - Pastor Joe Boot - video - 16:30 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKzUSWU7c2s&feature=player_detailpage#t=996
bornagain
November 23, 2015
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Barry - yes I agree with Elizabeth Liddle's statement:
I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis
So?Bob O'H
November 23, 2015
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barry - firstly, had Dembski written something like "I personally believe that ID can best be interpreted in the light of the Logos theology of John’s Gospel" then you would be right - one can view scientific theories in different metaphysical or theological lights (it's why many atheists and Christians are happy to work side by side doing science). But he didn't say that. He went much further, and said that ID "is just the" logos theology. Now, that might be his personal view, not shared by anyone else, but still here is one (former?) prominent ID proponent saying that ID is just about the super-natural.Bob O'H
November 23, 2015
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Well isn't this interesting. Dr. Dembski, (and Dr. Marks), no thanks to Darwinists who ridiculed, mocked, and even persecuted him relentlessly over the years, advanced conservation of information theorems further than anyone else has to date, (which is certainly a fairly impressive accomplishment in its own right), and Darwinists, instead of conceding that he has been correct all along, pretend as if he has done nothing of significance and now ridicule him for switching his primary focus to,,,
"In the last few years, my focus has switched from ID to education, specifically to advancing freedom through education via technology." I still have a few ID projects in the works, notably second editions of some of my books (e.g., NO FREE LUNCH and THE DESIGN INFERENCE). I regard BEING AS COMMUNION: A METAPHYSICS OF INFORMATION (published 2014) as the best summation of my 23-years focused on ID (the start of that work being my article “Randomness by Design” in NOUS back in 1991). ,,, https://billdembski.com/a-new-day/
Seeing as Dembski has, over the years, suffered first hand from Darwinists trying to censor his research and teaching, I certainly think his new direction in 'freedom of education' is very understandable and I hope, and pray, he has as much success in that area as he has had in furthering conservation of information theorems. As to Dembski's accomplishments thus far:
Here are all the main publications (which are linked) at evoinfo lab: http://evoinfo.org/publications/ Conservation of Information Made Simple - William A. Dembski - August, 2012 Excerpt: Biological configuration spaces of possible genes and proteins, for instance, are immense, and finding a functional gene or protein in such spaces via blind search can be vastly more improbable than finding an arbitrary electron in the known physical universe. ,,, ,,,Given this background discussion and motivation, we are now in a position to give a reasonably precise formulation of conservation of information, namely: raising the probability of success of a search does nothing to make attaining the target easier, and may in fact make it more difficult, once the informational costs involved in raising the probability of success are taken into account. Search is costly, and the cost must be paid in terms of information. Searches achieve success not by creating information but by taking advantage of existing information. The information that leads to successful search admits no bargains, only apparent bargains that must be paid in full elsewhere. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/conservation_of063671.html The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of Higher Level Search William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II Abstract: Needle-in-the-haystack problems look for small targets in large spaces. In such cases, blind search stands no hope of success. Conservation of information dictates any search technique will work, on average, as well as blind search. Success requires an assisted search. But whence the assistance required for a search to be successful? To pose the question this way suggests that successful searches do not emerge spontaneously but need themselves to be discovered via a search. The question then naturally arises whether such a higher-level “search for a search” is any easier than the original search. We prove two results: (1) The Horizontal No Free Lunch Theorem, which shows that average relative performance of searches never exceeds unassisted or blind searches, and (2) The Vertical No Free Lunch Theorem, which shows that the difficulty of searching for a successful search increases exponentially with respect to the minimum allowable active information being sought. http://evoinfo.org/publications/search-for-a-search/ Before They've Even Seen Stephen Meyer's New Book, Darwinists Waste No Time in Criticizing Darwin's Doubt - William A. Dembski - April 4, 2013 Excerpt: In the newer approach to conservation of information, the focus is not on drawing design inferences but on understanding search in general and how information facilitates successful search. The focus is therefore not so much on individual probabilities as on probability distributions and how they change as searches incorporate information. My universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 (a perennial sticking point for Shallit and Felsenstein) therefore becomes irrelevant in the new form of conservation of information whereas in the earlier it was essential because there a certain probability threshold had to be attained before conservation of information could be said to apply. The new form is more powerful and conceptually elegant. Rather than lead to a design inference, it shows that accounting for the information required for successful search leads to a regress that only intensifies as one backtracks. It therefore suggests an ultimate source of information, which it can reasonably be argued is a designer. I explain all this in a nontechnical way in an article I posted at ENV a few months back titled "Conservation of Information Made Simple" (go here). ,,, ,,, Here are the two seminal papers on conservation of information that I've written with Robert Marks: "The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of Higher-Level Search," Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics 14(5) (2010): 475-486 "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, 5(5) (September 2009): 1051-1061 For other papers that Marks, his students, and I have done to extend the results in these papers, visit the publications page at www.evoinfo.org http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/before_theyve_e070821.html Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence - June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search -- unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with "natural evolution." ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab's website states, "The principal theme of the lab's research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems." So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can't prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can't derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html Conservation of information, evolution, etc - Sept. 30, 2014 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel’s logical objection to Darwinian evolution: "The formation in geological time of the human body by the laws of physics (or any other laws of similar nature), starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field is as unlikely as the separation of the atmosphere into its components. The complexity of the living things has to be present within the material [from which they are derived] or in the laws [governing their formation]." Gödel - As quoted in H. Wang. “On `computabilism’ and physicalism: Some Problems.” in Nature’s Imagination, J. Cornwall, Ed, pp.161-189, Oxford University Press (1995). Gödel’s argument is that if evolution is unfolding from an initial state by mathematical laws of physics, it cannot generate any information not inherent from the start – and in his view, neither the primaeval environment nor the laws are information-rich enough.,,, More recently this led him (Dembski) to postulate a Law of Conservation of Information, or actually to consolidate the idea, first put forward by Nobel-prizewinner Peter Medawar in the 1980s. Medawar had shown, as others before him, that in mathematical and computational operations, no new information can be created, but new findings are always implicit in the original starting points – laws and axioms. http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2014/09/30/conservation-of-information-evolution-etc/
bornagain
November 23, 2015
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Bob O'H Before I move on, I am curious about one thing. Do you agree with Elizabeth Liddle when she writes:
I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis.
Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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Bill Dembski once ruminated about his personal view that the designer is God. Richard Dawkins has written several book length treatments on the religious implications of Darwinism. Bob O'H on ID: Ha! Gotcha. ID is religious. Bob O'H on Darwinism: [crickets] Hypocritical much Bob?Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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Bob, sorry old bean. Your "gotcha" fizzles. Perhaps you do not understand the phrase "when speaking qua ID." Go figure out what it means and come back and tell us why you are patently wrong here.Barry Arrington
November 23, 2015
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You're right, kf. That argument corrective is weak. Not least because it mis-represents the quote you are trying to defend.Bob O'H
November 23, 2015
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Thanks for posting that link, Bob O'H. I will be interested to see more details about this idea of Dembski's:
I’m going to propose a radically decentralized, information-based form of money that owes nothing to the state. Stay tuned. [2015 note: what I have in mind is more radical than bitcoin.]
daveS
November 23, 2015
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phoodoo @ 6 - See here. It looks like he still has a few loose ends to tie up, but then he's going to become a political revolutionary.Bob O'H
November 23, 2015
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BobO'H, perhspas you need to read the relevant UD weak argument corrective on twisting a reflection on the significance of the design inference per a wider consideration, into a projected conflation of theology and inductive reasoning in a scientific context: https://uncommondescent.com/faq/#logosth . KFkairosfocus
November 23, 2015
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Dawkins himself said that inferring ‘top down’ Design is intuitive, i.e. Inferred not from the ‘bottom up’ parts themselves but from the ‘top down’ ‘purposeful arrangement of parts’ (Blind Watchmaker, Behe paraphrase)
Life Reeks Of Design – Behe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdh-YcNYThY
Yet he, of course, claims that the design he sees is merely an illusion:
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21
Even atheist Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA, seems to have been particularly haunted by seeing this ‘illusion of design’ everywhere he looked in molecular biology:
“Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.” Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit “Organisms appear as if they had been designed to perform in an astonishingly efficient way, and the human mind therefore finds it hard to accept that there need be no Designer to achieve this” Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit – p. 30
Dawkins and Crick are certainly not alone in seeing this illusory ‘appearance of design’ in biology
living organisms “appear to have been carefully and artfully designed” Lewontin “The appearance of purposefulness is pervasive in nature.” George Gaylord Simpson “I remember how frustrated I became when, as a young atheist, I examined specimens under the microscope. I would often walk away and try to convince myself that I was not seeing examples of extraordinary design, but merely the product of some random, unexplained mutations.” -Rick Oliver (‘Designed to Kill in a Fallen World.’)
William Murray comments on how Atheists will try to suppress the truth of design in biology since it leads to God.
WJM on the truth denialism issue (of militant atheists) – Sept. 13, 2015 Excerpt: “Regardless of the overwhelming appearance of design in biology, it is possible that chance and natural law could have generated the appearance of design. That possibility of “deception” or “error” about the appearance of a thing is enough for them to deny the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.,,, IMO, Keiths et al use “bare possibility” as a means to justify their intellectual aversion to truth, because truth inexorably leads to God. They wish to deny God, and so they must avoid truth; avoiding truth means clinging to possibilities, terminologies, interpretations and philosophies that deny truth or redefines it.” https://uncommondescent.com/selective-hyperskepticism/wjm-on-the-truth-denialism-issue/#comment-579896
Moreover, even though atheists can’t demonstrate, nor even coherently explain, how a single protein of that ‘illusion of design’ in biology came about by unguided material processes, the elephant in the living room problem that is never addressed by atheists is much bigger than that. The elephant in the living problem is not how can unguided material processes possibly explain the origin of a single protein, but the unaddressed problem is “How in blue blazes do a billion-trillion proteins know how to keep a person alive for precisely a lifetime and not a moment longer?’
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott – 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE – Stephen L. Talbott – May 2012 http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2 Body plans, contrary to neo-Darwinian presuppositions, simply are not reducible to DNA! https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/are-some-of-our-opponents-in-the-grip-of-a-domineering-parasitical-ideology/#comment-587726
If a billion-trillion proteins dedicated to the singular purposeful task of keeping a person alive for precisely a lifetime and not a moment longer (Talbott) does not constitute an inference to ‘top down’ design, i.e. to seeing the ‘purposeful arrangement of parts’, then all reason is lost and the atheist is drifting about in an Alice in Wonderland world of profound insanity.
One Body – animation – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDMLq6eqEM4 It’s Really Not Rocket Science – Granville Sewell – November 16, 2015 Excerpt: In a 2005 American Spectator article, Jay Homnick wrote: “It is not enough to say that design is a more likely scenario to explain a world full of well-designed things. It strikes me as urgent to insist that you not allow your mind to surrender the absolute clarity that all complex and magnificent things were made that way. Once you allow the intellect to consider that an elaborate organism with trillions of microscopic interactive components can be an accident… you have essentially “lost your mind.”” ,,, Max Planck biologist W.E. Loennig once commented that Darwinism was a sort of “mass psychosis” — then he asked me, is that the right English word? I knew psychosis was some kind of mental illness, but wasn’t sure exactly what it was, so I looked it up in my dictionary when I returned home: “psychosis — a loss of contact with reality.” I wrote him that, yes, that was the right word…. Loennig and Homnick are still right. Once you seriously consider the possibility that all the magnificent species in the living world, and the human body and the human brain, could be entirely the products of unintelligent forces, you have been in academia too long and have lost contact with reality — you have lost your mind. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/11/it_really_isnt100911.html
Of related note to atheists having ‘lost their minds': Humorously, many leading atheists in academia will absolutely insist that they have no mind and that they really don’t exist as real persons, i.e. insist that they are 'illusions'.
Atheists Don’t Really Exist: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14DktPLhEDt1rxJgUWbkpLCWuDZEJDz4xnrLLVfsXkk8/edit
Atheists really have, (and many of them will argue with you if you insist they have a mind), completely ‘lost their minds’. You simply can’t make this stuff up! :)bornagain
November 23, 2015
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Bob, What do you mean he has moved on from ID?phoodoo
November 23, 2015
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EL writes this sentence as if biological ID theory posits a supernatural designer. Sigh. Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.
And yet Dr. Dembski famously wrote "Indeed, intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." Now he's moved on from ID, are you throwing him under the bus?Bob O'H
November 23, 2015
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Darwinists are feeling the heat. LOL. Eventually, they'll claim that they have always been advocates of intelligent design. We IDiots were just too stupid to understand their theory. After all, the theory of evolution predicts everything, even intelligent design.Mapou
November 23, 2015
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PPS: Those who wish to argue that mechanical parts don't stick together, molecules do would be well advised to look again at the many technological devices around that do work precisely because mechanical parts can and do click and stick together. And compare the use of enzymes and ATP in promoting ever so many required biochemical reactions that are otherwise energetically unfavourable.kairosfocus
November 22, 2015
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BA, Pardon me my doubts, especially given the trillion member observational base on the cause of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (FSCO/I), backed up by the needle in haystack blind direct search and blind search for a golden search challenges. I suspect that we may be seeing recognition that one level of objection is too patently closed minded, and there is a retreat to the next bastion of selective -- operative word -- hyperskepticism. The test is, whether they will be willing to recognise the force of the vera causa principle in addressing causal explanations of things we cannot directly inspect. If vera causa is recognised, instantly the fact that per a trillion member base of observations and the needle in haystack challenge, FSCO/I is an empirically reliable marker . . . sign . . . of cause by intelligently directed configuration. The second test is like unto the first: whether these are willing to recognise that for rational discourse, warrant and knowledge to be, we must be responsibly and rationally significantly free. From these two hang a transformational change in how we address major scientific and general questions. So, let us see how tests 1 and 2 apply. KF PS: My point is borne out by how EL dismisses the design inference in her closing remarks:
its [= ID's] fallacious (in my view) conclusion that:
…that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.
Fallacious not because I assume that the “intelligent cause” is supernatural, but because the math and biochemistry simply do not support that inference. Even if it’s true.
There is no biochemistry (and no thermodynamics behind it . . . ) that warrants the spontaneous emergence of smart gated, code using metabolic automata with embedded von Neumann kinematic self replication facilities, period. Like unto it the relevant math is in reality the combinational explosion implied by the FSCO/I involved, where the need for many correctly arranged, correct, correctly coupled parts sharply constrains functional clusters of configs to islands of function in the space of possible configs of the same parts. In simple terms, shaking up a bait bucket full of reel parts will never assemble a working ABU 6500 reel. That is where the needle in haystack search comes in, and it is closely tied to the statistical underpinnings of thermodynamics, that the predominant cluster of possible microstates prevails by virtue of statistical weight, of course unless constraints are imposed otherwise. Starting with Max, Maxwell's demon.kairosfocus
November 22, 2015
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WoW Is it the 1st of April? I never? Is this quite possibly the opportunity to start a honest and open dialogue about design without the constant.... Who designed the designer nonsense? I certainly hope so.Andre
November 22, 2015
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