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HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
Upright,
…and still, your argument doesn’t meet even your own non-negotiable standards for a scientifically-useful claim.
Care to substantiate your assertion?keith s
December 9, 2014
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...and still, your argument doesn't meet even your own non-negotiable standards for a scientifically-useful claim. You've brought UD the spectacle of belligerent certainty and brilliant self-refutation. Thanks.Upright BiPed
December 9, 2014
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StephenB, Regarding the Fall, can you explain how all the elaborate and deadly means by which predators track and kill their prey came about via "compromised" benign designs?keith s
December 9, 2014
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Mung:
spanked
Upright Biped:
Yes, spanked. Again.
From two of the least qualified guys at UD to pronounce on that, despite the large number of spankings each of them personally receives.keith s
December 9, 2014
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Wasn't keiths reading some new book that was supposed to sound the death knell for ID? Weren't we all going to be hearing a lot from keiths from that book? The hype. The letdown. The bomb that never went off.Mung
December 9, 2014
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Yes, spanked. Again. Not only that, but his "argument" doesn't even meet his own standards for a scientifically useful claim.Upright BiPed
December 9, 2014
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HeKS:
As it happens, software engineering is very often recognized to be just such a field by people on both sides of this debate, both software and life being based on digital code and making use of very similar design patterns and logic.
That would make for an interesting OP should you care to pursue it. Software Design and the Design of Life or some such. Software Design Patterns in Biology. Consider it. Thanks.Mung
December 9, 2014
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spankedMung
December 9, 2014
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Keith directs the following comments/questions about me to StephenB, and I answer: #1.
HeKS is presuming to tell us what evidence is and isn’t relevant, with no justification.
All evidence is relevant, but that doesn't mean it's all equally relevant, or even all relevant in the same way. The fact that ONHs do not typically manifest themselves in areas of design that have little or no relevance to life is not evidence against ID in biology. The fact that you can't objectively categorize balls or chairs into a nested hierarchy, and that manufacturers don't manufacture them with the intention that they should be capable of being so classified, does not mean that there is therefore no good reason for a designer to design life according to a nested hierarchy. If we want to know whether or not a designer would have such a reason, we must at least look to fields of human design that are more similar to life than objects like balls and chairs. As it happens, software engineering is very often recognized to be just such a field by people on both sides of this debate, both software and life being based on digital code and making use of very similar design patterns and logic. Now, you've claimed that I've given no justification for my weighting of the evidence (which you falsely characterized as excluding evidence), but as usual, this is untrue, and leads into your next question. ------------ #2.
How does he know that software development is “most obviously relevant to life”? He doesn’t.
This is widely recognized. From my comment #845
Life is based on biological information encoded into digital code, which happens to make use of tightly constrained, objective nested hierarchical control programs within the body of every organism that controls their developmental processes. Yes, ONHs are used to guide the developmental processes of individual organisms. They don't just show up at the macro scale of life as a whole. .... I’m not assuming that object-oriented programming (and BTW, procedural programming applies as well) is like the design of terrestrial life in all the relevant ways. I’m noting that it is incredibly similar in very many relevant ways and that there is no other human endeavor that I’m aware of that is more similar. Other people have made similar comments: “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.” – Bill Gates [SOMEONE WHO DESIGNS SOFTWARE] “Life is a DNA software system” – Craig Venter [SOMEONE WHO DESIGNS DNA] Steve Meyer has recounted a story about a former Microsoft engineer who he was working with [SOMEONE WHO DESIGNS SOFTWARE FOR A LIVING AND IS NOW STUDYING DNA]. Of this software engineer he says:
He walks into my office one day, throws a book down on the table. It’s called Design Patterns — standard textbook for computer design engineers — and he says, ‘I get the eerie feeling, when I’m looking at what’s going on in the cell, that’s somebody’s figured this out before us.’ And I said, ‘What do you mean?’ And he says, ‘Well, it’s the design patterns,’ and then he points to the book. . . . ‘We’ve got design logic for processing information, for doing error correction, for doing distributed data retrieval and reassembly, and for hierarchical organization — we’ve got files within folders, like on your desktop, you know, in the hierarchical filing system.’ And he says, ‘All those design patterns are inside the cell, except they’re using a design logic that’s like an 8.0, 9.0, 10.0 version of ours. It’s the same basic logic, but it’s more elegantly executed,‘ and he says, ‘It gives me an eerie feeling.
Here's another comment from Venter:
"All living cells run on DNA software, which directs hundreds to thousands of protein robots. We have been digitizing life for decades, since we first figured out how to read the software of life by sequencing DNA." - Craig Venter, DNA, the Software of Life
------------ #3.
How does he know that the vast majority of human designs — the ones that don’t form objective nested hierarchies — are irrelevant? He doesn’t.
Well, I don't recall anyone ever saying that life is like a ball or a chair. At least not anyone who remotely understood either life or balls or chairs. And I'm pretty sure that Forrest Gump was not speaking literally when he said that "life is like a box of chocolates". If you want to make a case that these types of products of design should carry equal weight with software engineering in determining whether or not a designer of life would have a reason to employ ONHs, you are free to do so, but so far you've made no such case. You've only whined that I say the weight of the evidentiary value from these different fields is clearly asymmetrical. By the way, I've also pointed out that humans use nested hierarchies when planning exhaustive or near-exhaustive diversity for different domains or avenues of services or products, which they then use as a guide to development. This may or may not lead to a discernible ONH pattern to the products/services after the fact, but it doesn't change the use of the nested hierarchy in plotting and carrying out development, making the nested hierarchy objective with respect to the reality of the planning, development and production, even if it cannot be reconstructed in isolation after the fact. I've already described the type of situation in which I've personally used this. ONHs also routinely appear in process and procedure design, in terms of decision points and the steps that ensue. In addition to being a programmer, I work as a business process and procedure consultant. In this role, I help clients to analyze the efficiencies and redundancies in their processes and make improvements. One of the primary ways I do this is by charting out their current processes and procedures in nested hierarchies, finding out if there are any reasons for redundancies that cannot be overcome, and then ensuring minimal repetition or crossover between branches. The NH is objective because the steps cannot be hierarchically organized by different criteria and still be expected to produce a coherent and functional process. Yet another area in which ONHs are used (but which I didn't bring up because it is not my area of expertise) is in circuit boards. And as I've said (#845), there are "tightly constrained, objective nested hierarchical control programs within the body of every organism that controls their developmental processes", which have themselves been compared to complex circuit diagrams, and organisms themselves develop in an ONH pattern, as CharlieM pointed out. So ONHs don't just show up at the macro scale of life as a whole. ------------ #4 & #5.
How does he know that what’s considered good practice for human software design is also good practice for an unknown designer pursuing unknown goals via unknown capabilities and unknown resources? He doesn’t. How does he know that the designer even cares about following what humans consider to be best practices? He doesn’t.
Yes, Keith ... what humans could be expected to do is highly relevant when you think it helps you but unimportant when it turns out to hurt you. Again from my #845:
The obvious fact of the matter is that when you came here with this argument, you did not think there could be any concrete or discernible reason why an ONH pattern would be more preferable to an intelligent designer than any other type of pattern, or that there were any relevant situations in which humans consistently produce them as a best-practice design pattern. Let's consider the number of times you've appealed to the importance of the connection, or rather disconnection, between human designs and ONHs in this thread alone.
"Humans routinely wreck ONHs."
But programmers don't. They try very hard not to and plan carefully to try to avoid breaking them. I make several passes over the course of a project, spending several hours each time, just trying to maximize my use of ONH code structures and keep them clean and without overlap, and this is after spending time trying to plan them out at the beginning of the project as well. Programmers do this not because they love ONHs for their own sake but because of their functional utility and expandable versatility.
"No one knows of any reason whatsoever for a designer to be limited in this way. Humans certainly aren’t, as I’ve already explained."
And as I've explained, yes, we do know of reasons for a designer to intentionally limit themselves in this way, and they routinely do as a best-practice design pattern in the area of human design that most closely resembles and is the most relevant to the world of life.
"ONHs are the rare exception, not the rule, in human design."
Except that they are the rule in human software design, not the exception.
"Humans, for example, generally don’t care at all about whether their designs form an objective nested hierarchy. They just want their designs to work. To defeat my argument, IDers need to show that the Designer is very un-humanlike in this respect."
Except that programmers care very much about whether their designs form objective nested hierarchies. It's how they get their designs to work best while leaving hooks at various points in their code to built off of in another direction to add new functionality. So in this respect the designer would be very humanlike. Of course, it's hard to keep track of whether we need to show that the designer is humanlike or un-humanlike to satisfy your requirements and defeat your argument. Here you claim that we need to show the designer is very un-humanlike to defeat your argument, but that was only because of the difference you were trying to invoke between the way you thought human designers were expected to act compared to the way the putative designer would have acted. But as it turns out, the putative designer would have acted very humanlike in his designing activities when compared to the most closely relevant field of software programming, and so now we're not allowed to "assume" that the designer would act humanlike.
"[Humans] can create ONHs, but they generally don’t, so this doesn’t help you at all."
Except that in the most closely relevant area of human design they generally do. For good measure, Zachriel also said:
"[I]t’s worth pointing out that human artifacts generally do not form an objective nested hierarchy."
Then it should also be worth pointing out that human programmer artifacts (their code, in the form of OOP classes or functions related in nested hierarchical dependencies) generally do form objective nested hierarchies. And now back to you:
"It isn’t enough to show that a human designer might, on some occasions, choose to produce an ONH, but not on others."
But then it seems it should be enough to show that in the most closely relevant field of human design, being software development, human designers do (not might), consistently (not just on some occassions), choose to produce ONHs whenever possible, because it is considered a best-practice in their (my) field. However, since you've made it quite clear at this point that your only interest is in upholding your argument at any cost, I'm quite certain that you would not consider this or anything else "enough".
This is the way you have argued, Keith. Keith: We have no reason to think a designer would choose to design life in the motif of an ONH rather than any of a trillion other vague options. After all, humans don't design things in ONH motifs. HeKS: Actually, human programmers do, in both Object-Oriented and Procedural programming. All the time. It results from best-practice design patterns. And it's widely recognized that software engineering is relevant to life. Humans also routinely use ONHs in other relevant fields. Keith: But what about the cases where they don't? HeKS: Those cases where humans don't produce ONHs (e.g. balls, chairs, garbage cans, tables, etc.) seem quite obviously less relevant to life than the cases where they routinely do. It seems we should give more weight to the cases that are quite obviously more relevant. And these more relevant cases also show that we actually have coherent reasons for why a designer would use an ONH motif after all. Keith: You're so dishonest. Stop telling us to ignore all the evidence that hurts ID. There's no reason why we should think software design is more relevant than anything else. Why should we think what humans would do is relevant at all? Why should we think that the designer even wanted to produce a diverse world of life at all? Why should we think anything at all? You just want to prop up ID. ------------ #6.
Why does he ignore the fact that the class hierarchies of object-oriented programming are hierachies within designs, not across the entire universe of designed systems? He doesn’t say, but it just so happens that acknowledging it would weaken his case for ID.
In OOP, class hierarchies form the whole basis for the entire project. They specify traits (properties) of things and what things can do (methods). Individual objects are merely instances of classes. An object that instantiaties a class becomes a self-contained representation of the class, having its properties and methods. An object that instantiates an extended class becomes a self-contained representation of that class and its parent classes(s). In other words, it becomes a "physical" representation of objectively hierarchically organized blueprints, and objects instantiated from the various levels of the blueprints (the original class, one of it's sub-classes, one of its sub-sub-classes) could also be organized after the fact into an ONH. And, as I've also said, this general best practice applies to Procedural and Functional programming as well. Not just OOP. In these approaches, best practices still lead to code being organized into objective nested hierarchies of functional dependencies. And in web development the ONHs are not used just in the functional code, but also in the styling code and the structural markup. ------------ #7.
HeKS isn’t examining the evidence to discern the truth. He’s filtering and distorting the evidence to prop up his precommitment to ID. It’s painfully obvious.
Whatever you need to say to make yourself feel better.HeKS
December 9, 2014
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KeithS
[HeKS] He’s also saying that the relevant contexts are the ones in which ONHs appear. See the phrase ‘actually relevant’ in that quote?
You shamelessly misrepresented his comments. There is no question about it. SB: Do you agree that organisms appear to be designed? Keiths
Only superficially. When you look at the evidence carefully and scientifically, they’re clearly the products of unguided evolution.
Nonsense. Everyone, even Richard Dawkins, agrees that organisms appear to be designed. You are so steeped in your own ideology that you cannot provide a reasonable answer to a reasonable question.
My question was about your Designer. Why was he so keen to put all but a handful of marsupials in Australia, and all of the cacti in the Americas? Please don’t dodge the question this time.
To answer your question, I need to know why you think the described phenomenon indicates unguided evolution. A designer might have reason's to set things up that way.
You’re not thinking it through, Stephen. Yes, a designer could do it either way, but unguided evolution can’t. UE fits the evidence better than ID.
You have not shown that unguided evolution can produce anything at all. If UE has no power to produce, then it has no power to explain.
I gave the example earlier of satellite radios showing up simultaneously in all kinds of different makes and models of cars. Human designers do things like that all the time. When has your designer ever lifted a system that complicated out of the tree and transplanted it to another limb? It’s clear why unguided evolution doesn’t do it: it can’t.
UE can't do it because UE can't do anything.
Another prediction of UE confirmed, while ID has no explanation for this odd designer behavior.
Oh yes, we love your after-the-fact predictions. I predict that the US stock market will crash in 1929. With your methodology, I can't miss. LOL
Evolutionary arms races make perfect sense if evolution is unguided. What’s the ID explanation of this bizarre designer behavior?
ID makes no claims to the effect that everything or every process in nature was designed. ID holds only that "some features" in nature are better explained that way.
Why is your Designer so fond of death and suffering, anyway? Why did he build creatures who can’t survive except by killing others? It’s exactly the kind of thing you’d expect unguided evolution to do.
SB: I don’t think the designer created them that way.
You don’t? How did they get that way, then?
I think that nature was corrupted by the Fall.
Interesting. Looks like Stephen had second thoughts about this:
No, no second thoughts. Why would I second thoughts? SB: It may well be that something happened that compromised the design.
Heh. Would that be the Fall, by any chance?
I gave you a little hint, didn't I?
Stephen, it’s extremely bad form to change the content of your comments that way unless you are merely correcting typos or fixing formatting errors.
You think its "bad form" to edit or change emphasis in the process of writing an answer? Why do you think so? I don't think so, especially since its the same answer with a different emphasis, as in: [a] Here is what I think about the cause (The Fall) vs. [b] here is what I think about the effect (Compromised design). I just decided to go with the latter emphasis, but it was not because I changed my mind about [a].StephenB
December 9, 2014
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Box (quoting Behe): - They deleted an enzyme that previous work showed could likely be replaced. They chose a strain that already lacked trpF. Box (quoting Behe): - They added the necessary nutrient histidine because previous work showed that mutations conferring an ability to make tryptophan destroyed the ability to make histidine. The whole point is that the organism evolves in response to the environment. They manipulated the environment to watch the changes in the genes. In any case, Behe's statement is directly contradicted by the experiment itself. Box (quoting Behe): - The added histidine would have shut off production of the protein, so they removed the genetic control element to keep it in production. They started with an enzyme that had HisA activity, but also had acquired a spontaneous mutation for weak TrpF activity. They then grew it in a medium lacking histidine and tryptophan. They didn't have to do anything to keep histidine in production, as the enzyme was already there. Box (quoting Behe): - Later, once they found mutations to produce tryptophan, they removed histidine from the medium to encourage the production of mutations restoring histidine synthesis. The spontaneous mutation necessary to produce tryptophan was at the *very beginning* of the experiment, not somewhere in the middle. That was the innovation they were studying within the context of their hypothesis of innovation-amplification-divergence model. What the experiment shows is how this initial innovation would evolve. Start with a single gene with strong HisA and weak TrpF. From there, different strains take different paths. Some evolved so that the single gene acquired moderate capability for both HisA and TrpF. Others evolved by gene duplication, with one gene providing highly optimized activity for HisA, and another providing highly optimized activity for TrpF.Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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keiths:
1. Unguided evolution predicts an ONH, and ID doesn’t.
Your assertion about unguided evolution is just that, an assertion. It is not testable.
What ever happened to “follow the evidence wherever it leads?” You guys used to love saying that.
There is no evidence for unguided evolution, so no evidence to follow. Unguided evolution doesn't lead to anything.Mung
December 9, 2014
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In post #950 Keith argues directly for the capability of unguided evolution to produce the fancy stuff we see. He links to a 2012 article which title does not cover the subject - a familiar Darwinian tradition founded by the old master himself. After I pointed out #954 that Behe has decisively rebutted the article, Keith reverted to simply assuming that unguided evolution is up to the job. What is up with that Keith? Was that one article all you got?Box
December 9, 2014
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keiths:
How do you explain your Designer’s predilection for mimicking unguided evolution?
Keiths is trying to steal ground again. Given the above, one would almost think keiths had actually demonstrated that "unguided evolution" could do diddly squat, but he hasn't. This is just bluster and sophistry. It can easily be flipped around. Will keiths accept the following "argument" for design?
How do you explain "unguided evolution's" predilection for mimicking a designer?
I'm betting he won't. Yet I don't doubt he will continue to be convinced that his argument is somehow more sophisticated than this reformulation. It might be entertaining to watch him try to explain why, but I imagine he will opt for simply ignoring the obvious.Phinehas
December 9, 2014
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keiths:
How does he know that the designer even cares about following what humans consider to be best practices? He doesn’t.
HeKS doesn't claim to know any such thing. Why? Because he doesn't have to. the burden-of-proof lies on your shoulders, not his. It is your argument to support, not his. All he needs to demonstrate is that you don't have any real reason or support for claiming otherwise. And you quite clearly don't. Nor is it HeKS' responsibility to show that programming is the most relevant evidence to consider. All he has to do is suggest that it might be, and it then becomes your responsibility to either demonstrate that it isn't or admit that you can't support your argument. Lacking a supported argument, you are desperately trying to shift the burden-of-proof, but it won't work.Phinehas
December 9, 2014
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keiths:
Now you’re talking about a “weather satellite” so massive that it would completely disrupt the weather it was sent to monitor. The designer you have in mind must be pretty dim.
With all these red herrings, we should have a fish fry. Does the argument change if it is a communications satellite instead? Or if it is just a bunch of skyscrapers on Charon, as I suggested earlier? Still, I'm sure you'd rather deflect than engage the actual argument. And I don't have a designer in mind, so stop projecting. You are the only one who thinks you have the designer all figured out.
That isn’t my logic. If intelligence is needed, then we should infer intelligence. But you haven’t shown that intelligence is needed to explain the diversity and complexity of terrestrial life.
Nice attempt at burden-of-proof shifting. It's your argument to support. If you can't do it, just say so. (The rest of us will be shocked! Shocked I tell you!) You are the one who desperately needs to produce something of substance, not me. All I need to do is to continue using your argument against itself so that, hopefully, you finally understand that there really is no there there. Falling back on the Darwinian, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by blah, blah, blah" only works with the selective hyper-skeptic.Phinehas
December 9, 2014
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Family trees are examples of branching descent with modification that do not produce nested hierarchies of traits.Joe
December 9, 2014
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Here's a demonstration of the utter emptiness of the Darwinist argument: what is under debate is the very question of if evolution can be characterized in any significant sense as "unguided"; that even if some aspects are technically unguided, ID's argument is that such aspects are housed entirely within a designed frame work and regulated by an intelligently crafted system. Keith then attempts to circumvent this argument by simply insisting the process is unguided and thus what it produces by definition would be what the product of unguided evolution would look like! Keith, until you demonstrate at least in principle that an unguided system can produce X artifacts, you cannot use X artifacts as evidence that the system is unguided. We know for a fact that intelligently guided systems can produce X artifacts. You can't point to the system currently under debate as your evidence that unguided systems produce X artifact. Point somewhere else in nature if you can.William J Murray
December 9, 2014
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StephenB said:
I don’t agree with that characterization. To mimic unguided evolution, the designer would not have given organisms the appearance of design. Do you agree that organisms appear to be designed?
Keith said:
Only superficially.
Yeah, because once you get into the guts of the cell, all those coded blueprints, self-regulatory networks, 3D printers, operating systems, error-checking systems, and other highly precise, interdependent complex nanotechnology doesn't appear to be designed at all, right? Keith continues:
When you look at the evidence carefully and scientifically, they’re clearly the products of unguided evolution.
You mean, an evolutionary process you admit cannot be vetted as "unguided"? You assume evolutionary success can be sufficiently explained via unguided forces with no means for justifying that assumption, then claim that the product of evolution you've assumed to be unguided in the first place is evidence that it is unguided in the second place? It doesn't get any more circular than that.William J Murray
December 9, 2014
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Zachriel: Branching descent with modification produces a nested hierarchy of traits. Box: The commonly cited names of Santa Claus’s reindeer are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner, and Blitzen. That's a nice thought in keeping with the season, but not sure it relates to the point raised.Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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Oops- Blixem- Dunder and Blixem. Blizem went to Blixen and then to BlitzenJoe
December 9, 2014
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Donder, not Donner. Donder, from Dunder- Dunder and Blitzen- thunder and lightning. We now return to our regularly scheduled program...Joe
December 9, 2014
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Branching descent with modification produces a nested hierarchy of traits.
And yet family trees are examples of branching descent with modification that do not produce nested hierarchies of traits. You lose because you are too ignorant to learn.Joe
December 9, 2014
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StephenB: I wouldn’t expect unguided evolution to produce anything at all for the simple reason that there is nothing in the cause that could produce the effect.
Zachriel: Branching descent with modification produces a nested hierarchy of traits.
The commonly cited names of Santa Claus's reindeer are Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner, and Blitzen.Box
December 9, 2014
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StephenB: I wouldn’t expect unguided evolution to produce anything at all for the simple reason that there is nothing in the cause that could produce the effect. Branching descent with modification produces a nested hierarchy of traits.Zachriel
December 9, 2014
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Keith, After you have answered CharlieM's question, about the survival race between newts and snakes, can you provide a step by step explanation of the coming into existence of the snake's poison fang under unguided evolution? Let's start off with a normal tooth. What happens next?Box
December 9, 2014
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keith@ #972 You are making several assumptions here. Why do you call the designer 'he'? Why do you think that there was a single designer who put marsupials in one place and cacti in another? Do you know why humans use gears in so many designs? It is because the power source and the output are mismatched. There would be no need for gearing if the driver and the driven were well matched. Let's look at your logic about the arms race between newts and snakes. Snake eats poisonous newt and survives because it has developed a certain resistance to the poison. Newt becomes slightly more toxic. Does this save it from being eaten? No. The snake has no idea whether or not it will survive the meal. Either the newt dies alone or it dies together with the snake. What method do you propose that more toxic newts have of out competing less toxic newts in the survival race? What is it that prevents them from being eaten?CharlieM
December 9, 2014
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What ever happened to “follow the evidence wherever it leads?”
You tell us as you don't follow anything but your delusions.
As soon as you noticed that the evidence leads away from ID, you stopped saying that.
We haven't noticed such an event.
1. Unguided evolution predicts an ONH,
Liar
This is exactly the kind of thing you’d expect from unguided evolution.
Liar
Evolutionary arms races make perfect sense if evolution is unguided.
Cuz keith s sez so! All science so far!Joe
December 9, 2014
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Interesting. Looks like Stephen had second thoughts about this:
I don’t think the designer created them that way.
...and replaced it with this:
It may well be that something happened that compromised the design.
Heh. Would that be the Fall, by any chance? Stephen, it's extremely bad form to change the content of your comments that way unless you are merely correcting typos or fixing formatting errors.keith s
December 9, 2014
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StephenB:
I don’t read it that way at all. He is simply saying that ONH patterns are common in one context and not common in other contexts.
He's also saying that the relevant contexts are the ones in which ONHs appear. See the phrase 'actually relevant' in that quote? keiths:
How do you explain your Designer’s predilection for mimicking unguided evolution?
StephenB:
I don’t agree with that characterization. To mimic unguided evolution, the designer would not have given organisms the appearance of design. Do you agree that organisms appear to be designed?
Only superficially. When you look at the evidence carefully and scientifically, they're clearly the products of unguided evolution. keiths:
Why was he so keen to put all but a handful of marsupials in Australia, and all of the cacti in the Americas?
StephenB:
I wouldn’t expect unguided evolution do produce a marsupial. I wouldn’t expect unguided evolution to produce anything at all for the simple reason that there is nothing in the cause that could produce the effect.
We know you doubt the power of unguided evolution, but that wasn't the question. My question was about your Designer. Why was he so keen to put all but a handful of marsupials in Australia, and all of the cacti in the Americas? Please don't dodge the question this time. keiths:
Having invented the gear, why hasn’t he used it in any other species? Reusing complex ideas is something human designers do all the time. Why doesn’t your Designer?
StephenB:
Now you are doing the very same thing that you falsely accused HeKS of doing, asking us to “ignore” the evidence of human designers who do not reuse complex ideas...
You're not thinking it through, Stephen. Yes, a designer could do it either way, but unguided evolution can't. UE fits the evidence better than ID. I gave the example earlier of satellite radios showing up simultaneously in all kinds of different makes and models of cars. Human designers do things like that all the time. When has your designer ever lifted a system that complicated out of the tree and transplanted it to another limb? It's clear why unguided evolution doesn't do it: it can't. Another prediction of UE confirmed, while ID has no explanation for this odd designer behavior. keiths:
What about those evolutionary arms races? Does your Designer adjust the newts, then decide to adjust the snakes to compensate, then adjust the newts again, then adjust the snakes again, over and over again, for a reason? It makes perfect sense if unguided evolution is operating.
StephenB:
<crickets chirping...>
You skipped this question, Stephen. Were you hoping I wouldn't notice? Evolutionary arms races make perfect sense if evolution is unguided. What's the ID explanation of this bizarre designer behavior? keiths:
Why is your Designer so fond of death and suffering, anyway? Why did he build creatures who can’t survive except by killing others? It’s exactly the kind of thing you’d expect unguided evolution to do.
StephenB:
I don’t think the designer created them that way.
You don't? How did they get that way, then?keith s
December 9, 2014
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