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HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
vividbleau #947, If you can't tell the difference between the process of unguided evolution and the theory of unguided evolution, this thread is going to be a tough slog for you. By the way, your comment is very Mung-like. Mung, from 2012:
Unguided evolution (whatever that is) doesn’t predict anything. If it did it wouldn’t be unguided.
You two make a good pair.keith s
December 6, 2014
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Box
Nope, UE doesn’t even predict
This is so obvious that one wonders how Keith cannot see how ridiculous it is to assert such a thing. Just substitute something else after the unguided part in place of evolution and its so easy to see. Example UM ( unguided missiles) predicts their target. Vividvividbleau
December 6, 2014
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Keith: UE predicts an ONH ...
Nope, UE doesn't even predict / produce one single protein.Box
December 6, 2014
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Keith,
You’d have a much better chance of getting responses to all your points if you weren’t such a windbag. Seriously, take a look at the length of this comment. That isn’t unusual for you. This is what usually happens: 1. I start responding to one of your epic comments. 2. Out of pity for the readers, I respond to just two or three points and then end the comment. 3. I start working on another reply to you, but then you or someone else responds to my initial reply, I end up responding back, and a discussion begins. 4. I get caught up in the new discussion, carrying on an actual conversation, and I don’t get back to your original comment. 5. Some time later you complain that I’m ignoring your points, when you could simply bring them up again.
Ohhhh. Now it all makes sense. It was all for the sake of the poor, poor readers. So that's why you would pick out a single sentence from one of my comments that was leading into a larger point, then make some claim about the issue that I had already addressed in the very comment you were quoting form, in the immediately following sentences, and then ask me if I had anything to say on the subject. Addressing what I'd actually said would make the poor readers read too much. And that's why you would isolate sentences to misrepresent, provide "rebuttals" to your misrepresentations, and then ridicule me for making some argument I never made. Gotta make sure those readers aren't bored. And that's why you would raise an issue but when I responded you would again choose the most convenient sentence to isolate and misrepresent and then change the subject to Rain Fairies. The readers need entertainment and just want to hear more about Rain Fairies. And that's why you kept forgetting where to find the comments I made in the OPs, which I kept referring you back to. It was because the OPs were so hard to find, and scrolling was such hard work. And anyway, the readers don't want to dwell on the past and the OP is so 900+ comments ago. Well, the readers, many of whom happen to be significant contributors to this thread, have complained about your evasiveness, misrepresentations and choice to completely ignore my points (and theirs), but not about the length of my comments (which are actually talking about the issues rather than simply repeating slogans), so perhaps you should just assume that the readers can handle the length. Case in point... Keith to HeKS:
Readers ... want to know whether you can refute my argument
Phinehas to Keith:
What argument?! When HeKS addressed your argument in the OP, you never responded to his points. Instead, you insisted he limit himself to a specific point [i.e. Rain Fairies]. And that he only respond in a specific way. So he went ahead and dismantled your Rain Fairy tripe anyway. And you’ve been unresponsive. Now you are accusing him of lacking substance in pointing out your unresponsivenss. What exactly is he supposed to be arguing against at this point?
And more recently from StephenB:
KeithsS is now asking HeKS to abbreviate his counterarguments, not realizing that their primary function is to cut through (and sift through) a tangled mess of disconnected themes, illogical arguments, unsubstantiated claims, shameless misrepresentations, and gratuitous insults. In such a confused communicative environment, brought on by Keiths’s unbridled sophistry, HeKS can hardly be expected to provide an abbreviated response. Somehow, KeithS always seems to get it wrong. The things that can and should be simplified, he makes as complex as possible; the things that require intellectual distinctions and nuances, he oversimplifies to the point of obscenity. Thus, he refuses to unify his own presentation, which ought to be expected, but he asks others to unify his disunity, which borders on the impossible.
Also, when you repeatedly isolate and misrepresent portions of my comments and then say you don't know how you misrepresented them, you are basically telling me that I need to explain everything, in extreme detail, just so you can grasp the actual point that was made. Of course, your response is then to complain that I've used too many words. Instead of blaming your poor performance on the length of my comments, why don't you just admit that you're not looking for a real discussion on your argument and that you're simply here to repeat your slogans? I'm used to having serious discussions with people who care more about addressing issues than keeping things brief, and about making an honest effort not to misrepresent the other side's arguments. You, clearly, are not such a person.HeKS
December 6, 2014
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Keith: do you believe that an omnipotent designer is logically impossible?
There are some problems with omnipotence, but let's say that an extremely powerful designer is possible. But also a very modest designer with very limited options is possible. Or a designer with very compelling reasons to choose for a certain option.
Keith: If not, then all possibilities are necessarily still in play.
Which one? There is no warrant whatsoever to assume an omnipotent (or extremely powerful) designer (edited: with no bias towards the ordering of life) and not another.
Keith: To rule any of them out would be to make an unwarranted assumption.
If you don't unwarrantably assume an omnipotent designer and all the possibilities available to her, then you don't have to rule them out. First you assume trillions of possibilities for an omnipotent designer without warrant. Second you refuse to rule them out because that would be unwarranted! You are a funny guy.Box
December 6, 2014
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Box #941, We know that there are trillions of ways for two 30-taxa cladograms to mismatch. If you specify any particular mismatching pair of cladograms, then I -- a mere human -- can assign traits in a way that will produce that particular mismatch. If I can do that, then why do you doubt that it's possible for a designer? Second, do you believe that an omnipotent designer is logically impossible? If not, then all possibilities are necessarily still in play. To rule any of them out would be to make an unwarranted assumption. I explained it to William:
You have no observations of your purported designer to fall back on, so you can’t rule out any of the possibilities. It’s the principle of indifference: you can’t rule any possibilities out, so you can’t assign them a probability of zero; you can’t be certain of any of the possibilities either, so you can’t assign a probability of one to any of them. What’s left? You have to assign nonzero probabilities. But not just any nonzero probabilities. They have to be equal nonzero probabilities, because otherwise you are favoring some possibilities over others, with no justification. It’s both common sense and standard statistical practice. I think the only reason you have trouble with it is that you don’t like the implications it has for ID. Be brave, William.
And last, don't forget that my argument doesn't depend on the PoI, as I explained to Phinehas:
Phinehas, The fact that unguided evolution predicts the ONH out of trillions of possibilities is enough by itself to give UE a huge advantage over ID. That step does not require the PoI. All the PoI did was to make the advantage even more lopsided by showing that ID predicted a non-ONH pattern with 99.99…% probability. With the PoI, we have:
1. UE predicts an ONH out of trillions of possibilities, and the prediction is spectacularly confirmed. 2. ID predicts a non-ONH with 99.99…% probability out of trillions of possibilities. The prediction fails. UE wins by an enormous margin.
Without the PoI, we have:
1. UE predicts an ONH out of trillions of possibilities, and the prediction is spectacularly confirmed. 2. ID lacks a probability distribution and cannot make a prediction. UE wins by an enormous margin.
keith s
December 6, 2014
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HeKS #913:
The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome.
HeKS, You're not keeping up with the science: Gene Genesis: Scientists Observe New Genes Evolving from Mutated Copieskeith s
December 6, 2014
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Keith #938: How many times will you repeat this mistake?
It's not a mistake. It doesn't matter whether you assume trillions of options available to the designer or assume trillions of possible designers. Those are still unwarranted assumptions, whether you understand that or not. The simple truth is that we don't know if there are trillions of options available to the designer. And we don't know if there are trillions of possible designers. Even Bob and Betty won't help you there.Box
December 6, 2014
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For the zillionth time, KF #924 brings up the Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel. Yet he never asks the obvious question:
It’s interesting that KF’s preferred example of design — the Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel, with which he bores us to death — is full of gears, yet only one case of gearing has ever been found in nature. Did God the Designer finally get around to taking a mechanical engineering course before designing Issus coleoptratus?
keith s
December 6, 2014
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StephenB, Good. It looks like you are moving toward making an actual counterargument. You wrote:
Further, “the evidence” is conspicuously incomplete. Why do ONH’s qualify as evidence while information is not even given a mention.
Information is produced by natural processes all the time. The production of information is therefore not a differentiator between intelligent and unintelligent causes.
The latter is more significant than the former. The mere existence of information renders the whole argument nonsensical.
Do go on.keith s
December 6, 2014
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Box:
The point is to make as few unsupported assumptions about the designer as possible, because unsupported assumptions are, well, unsupported. For one, Keith makes the unsupported assumption that the designer can do anything; trillions of options are available et cetera; IOW that the designer is (just about) omnipotent.
How many times will you repeat this mistake? I am not assuming that the designer is omnipotent. Likewise, my Bob and Betty example does not assume that the perpetrator prefers traveling by both train and plane. The probability distributions represent more than one possible designer and more than one possible perpetrator. Equal probabilities do not signal indifference, as I've already explained, and by the same reasoning they do not signal omnipotence.keith s
December 6, 2014
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Sorry for my grammer in my last post. As its too late to edit it I'll repost the sentence that I messed up: Put it this way, ask any of these believers, "Who designed the synthetic genome at the Craig Ventner Institute?"CharlieM
December 6, 2014
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Box
StephenB, VJTorley offered this summary of Keith’s argument, in the “Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib” thread: 1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH) 2. Unguided evolution explains ONH 3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives. 4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH. Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.
Yes, I know. Let's explore that summary, which belongs to VJ, not to Keiths. #1 is the only point that makes sense. It is based on observational evidence. #2 is an unsupported claim characterized as a fact. There is no reason to believe that unguided evolution can produce an ONH, nor is there any evidence for it. #3 is an unsupported claim characterized as a fact. Even if it was true, it wouldn't make sense. If A and B both fit the facts, then they both fit. One cannot "fit" a trillion times "better" than another. It either fits or it doesn't. Keiths is mixing the qualitative (better) with the quantitative (measurement). #4 is an unsupported claim characterized as a fact. It depends on #2, which is also unsupported. The "conclusion" depends solely on unsupported claims, is totally circular, (UE can produce ONH, therefore, UE can produce OHN), and conflates quantity with quality (fits the facts "better." Further, "the evidence" is conspicuously incomplete. Why do ONH's qualify as evidence while information is not even given a mention. The latter is more significant than the former. The mere existence of information renders the whole argument nonsensical. Only self-serving evidence has been allowed to enter the picture. Information is "trillions and trillions" of times harder to produce than an ONH. (I am being a little flippant here with my Keith-like admixture of quality and quantity, but you get the drift) That is why I asked KeithS to provide his own summary and not rely on VJ to do it for him.StephenB
December 6, 2014
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Pachyaena at #933:
Box, you’re putting limits on ‘the designer’. For anyone who believes in the Abramic, allegedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect, supernatural-designer-creator-god (or the like), that’s a no-no.
Pachyaena it is you who is making unwarrented assumptions about the designer and about those that believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect, supernatural-designer-creator-god. You are assuming that everything that has ever existed has been designed by this being. You assume that God and the designer are one and the same. Put it this way, ask any of these believers who designed the synthetic genome at the Craig Ventner Institute. How many of them do you think will say, "God did"? Do we attribute the creation of Michaelangelo's "David" to God? What about nuclear weapons, did God design them, or did he allow humans the freedom to be able to design them? What do you think and what do you think believers in a creator God would say?CharlieM
December 6, 2014
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Pachyaena #933, The point is to make as few unsupported assumptions about the designer as possible, because unsupported assumptions are, well, unsupported. For one, Keith makes the unsupported assumption that the designer can do anything; trillions of options are available et cetera; IOW that the designer is (just about) omnipotent. And we simply don't know that. ID doesn't make such assumptions about the designer. ID is about design detection - not to be equated with the believe in an Abramic God. So, in the piece you quoted, I was informing Keith, that he made unsupported assumptions about the designer. For all we know the designer is an alien with only one option. We have no way of knowing. I'm telling you all this, because your post #933 gave me the impression that you interpreted it very differently.Box
December 6, 2014
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Box said: "Keith is equivocating between “what is imaginable” and “what is possible”. Keith’s failure of logic here is that the “possibilities” he refers to exist solely as imagined variant arrangements of the evidence and not on any known capacity of the designer to implement such arrangements. In order to “not rule out” any of the imagined arrangements keith must first show his imagined arrangements are all possible arrangements the designer could have actually instantiated in the first place. Except Keith has no basis for such a demonstration because, as he said, he knows absolutely nothing about the designer. Because they are imaginable arrangements doesn’t mean they are actual possibilities available for instantiation to the designer. Keith has confused arrangements he can imagine with arrangements a designer could actually, possibly instantiate." Box, you're putting limits on 'the designer'. For anyone who believes in the Abramic, allegedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, perfect, supernatural-designer-creator-god (or the like), that's a no-no. When it comes to supernatural-designer-creator-god(s), just because they are imaginable, that doesn’t mean they are actual possibilities and it doesn't mean that any exist (I can easily imagine lots of things that any sane person would agree are impossible and don't exist). When anyone claims that a certain supernatural-designer-creator-god exists and that it's the only one, they can believe that if they like but if they want science to pay any attention and especially if they want science to accept it they're going to have to support their claim 'in the teeth' (Hi KF) of all other possibilities. And as Keith has pointed out, if he doesn't know anything about 'the designer', including its capabilities, neither do any of you or anyone else.Pachyaena
December 6, 2014
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StephenB and other IDers, do you accept that weather is due to or the result of (take your pick) unguided forces, events, actions/interactions, laws, or processes (take your pick)?
I see no reason to challenge that view.William J Murray
December 6, 2014
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StephenB and other IDers, do you accept that weather is due to or the result of (take your pick) unguided forces, events, actions/interactions, laws, or processes (take your pick)? ETA: I want to point out that the main focus of my question is the "unguided" part.Pachyaena
December 6, 2014
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The ONH is precisely what UE predicts,
That is a flat out lie and I don't care if what I said bothers HEKs. That you people are not forcing keith s to substantiate his claim by producing a computer program that demonstrates unguided processes can produce an ONH proves that you don't know how to refute an argument. Good luck with thatJoe
December 6, 2014
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Gordon, setting aside your unsubstantiated, irrelevant, endless drivel about FSCO/I, fishing reels, nodes-arcs networks, nanomachines of the cell (look who's being a reductionist as usual), warm salty ponds, etc., for the moment, I want to point out some things about your drumbeat repetitive, character attacking, motive mongering, contemptuously dismissive, ideologically driven, disrespectful, factional, accusatory, slanderous (actually libelous), emotion-laden, fundagelical-theocratic worldview based intimidatory Marxist Agit-Prop Alinskyite tactics and rants that you lead out to strawmen and red herrings soaked in oily, incendiary ad hominems set ablaze to cloud and poison the atmosphere in the teeth of correction (Whew!): You are what you condemn, and then some, even though you zealously claim to have 'God grounded', is/ought, impeccable, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., morals. Your ridiculous whining about "outing" is apparently because I addressed you in a previous comment by your first name. Your name, Gordon E. Mullings, and a lot more about you is easily available by clicking on your kairosfocus username and then clicking on some of your links to other pages of yours on your own blog(s). Your full name and other information is also easily available by doing an internet search of your kairosfocus username. You publicly provide your real name, your email address, where you live, and lots of other information about yourself and your family, and some of it you provide on this very blog, yet you flip out and make up lame, dishonest stories about email spam and security/privacy when someone addresses you by your real name (even just your first name). I've seen you claim many times that you, your wife, and your "minor children" have been threatened, held hostage, stalked, etc., yet you never provide any evidence to support those claims, even though you've been asked multiple times to do so. I'm calling your bluff: put up or shut up and retract and apologize.Pachyaena
December 6, 2014
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HeKS @ 913: What an epic exposé! I thought I was patient, but I humbly bow to the master.William J Murray
December 6, 2014
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Also, after thinking about what you said in #925, Box; unguided evolution cannot explain why features such as the pentadactyl limb is so persistent in vertebrates.CharlieM
December 6, 2014
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StephenB, VJTorley offered this summary of Keith's argument, in the "Why KeithS’s bomb is a damp squib" thread:
1. We observe objective nested hierarchies (ONH) 2. Unguided evolution explains ONH 3. A designer explains ONH, but also a trillion alternatives. 4. Both unguided evolution and a designer are capable of causing ONH. Conclusion: Unguided evolution is a trillion times better at explaining ONH.
Box
December 6, 2014
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CharlieM,
CharlieM #920: Goethe proposed that the various species that inhabit the earth are an expression of an archetypal form. If this is indeed the case then an ONH is just what we would expect to see. Each form is guided by the archetype and expresses it as much as it is able. Each form is nested within the type.
Indeed, we should expect to see an ONH if life develops guided by archetypal form. And we should not expect to see ONH when life develops by a Darwinian process. From the article, referenced by CharlieM:
If organisms, as Darwin’s work suggested, go through more or less continuous change, with new species arising out of old ones, how could any species be thought to possess a fixed, given nature? Where, along the trajectory of change, would we find that nature?
As stated before, in order to get to an ONH a Darwinian explanation needs extinction with chirurgical accuracy to sculpt the ONH pattern out an ocean of innumerable transitional forms.Box
December 6, 2014
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P: I came by a moment, I simply note that if you and too many others cannot acknowledge the empirically obvious FSCO/I evident in the wiring diagram of an Abu 6500 C3 reel, that speaks volumes on the no concessions policy driven by writing conclusions first through a priori commitments linked to Lewontinian a priori materialism or fellow traveller positions. (And BTW, beaver dams adapted to stream flow conditions per engineering principles such as arch dam designs, are functionally specific complex organisation, with the associated implicit or latent information emerging from doing a nodes-arcs analysis . . . reverse engineering.) The ideologically controlled, worldviews driven zero concession attitude in turn inadvertently indicates the significance of FSCO/I in metabolic networks, D/RNA, nanomachines of the cell such as Ribosomes, ATP Synthase, Flagella etc etc. Where, it remains so that, on trillions of cases, FSCO/I is routinely and ONLY observed to be produced by intelligently directed configuration, i.e. design. Where too another favourite objection, alleged lack of quantifiability, falls to the simple point that a nodes-arcs network is reducible to a structured chain of y/n q's, yielding a bit value for information content. A commonplace acknowledged by Orgel in the context of OOL and implied by Wicken, some forty years past. KF PS: Onlookers should note that the two years standing challenge and essay invitation to warrant on observed causal adequacy, evolutionary materialist theorising on the tree of life, from root in OOL to major body plan branches and so forth, still stands without serious answer. Where, an adequate answer would not only shut down UD, but would devastate design theory. Where also, the physics and chemistry of warm salty ponds or volcano vents undersea or comet cores etc, actually confront scenarios that try to get to cell based life and its FSCO/I by blind chance and mechanical necessity, especially through the familiar thermodynamic challenge of sparse needle in haystack search. Also, there is no good observational evidence of a vast interconnected continent of body plans incrementally and smoothly connected back to a common ancestral form, where also FSCO/I precisely because of requisites of co-ordinated arrangement, fitting/coupling together and interaction to achieve result naturally comes in islands in very large config spaces. That background fact should serve to give context to the use of unsubstantiated dismissive talking points, such as above. (Note, how the latest round was triggered by my linking of refutations of strawman caricature distortions of the design inference process through loaded false analogies such as rain fairies and planet-pushing angels, cf 909 - 10 above.) PPS: Beyond this, I must shake my head then -- pardon HeKS -- speak just once for record. I remind you, P, that I have long since made a simple request in interests of email etc protection/security, which you and to many others seem insistent on ignoring through zeal to indulge in "outing" behaviour (itself an intimidatory Agit-Prop tactic). Where similar outing tactics carried out in the circle of UD's objectors have included implicit threats against uninvolved family including minor children. That level of insistently disrespectful factional behaviour in the teeth of repeated request, now multiplied by your jumping to conclusions and making dismissive remarks about a matter that -- as it deals with a tort in a British law context -- is not in the media even here, speaks sad volumes.kairosfocus
December 6, 2014
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vividbleau to Heks:
You should really peruse the thread Keith refers to in 908. You were not around then. Anyway you will see as it relates to Keith the tactics are the same then the same now.
Yes, the tactics are to make good arguments, expose the many faults of ID, and to continue telling the truth even in the face of banning threats. We'll see if it gets me banned this time. So far, so good.keith s
December 6, 2014
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vividbleau, For me, one of the fun things about that thread was using the possible truth of theism to demonstrate the impossibility of absolute certainty. Theists tend to be unaware of this consequence of theism.keith s
December 6, 2014
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KeithS to HeKS
Other people seem to get it. Their comments are fairly short and to the point. Why can’t you do that?
This is more than a little ironic. It takes double standards to a new level. On the one hand, I asked KeithS to summarize his argument in a paragraph not because I don't understand it, but because I want him to understand how incoherent it is, and the best way for him to grasp the point is by trying to make it cohere. Once he tries to summarize it, he will immediately come to understand that it can't be summarized because it doesn't hang together. Yet KeithS balks at the prospect of trying to give an account of his nonsensical and self serving formulations. That is why he despises sharped-edged questions. On the other hand, KeithsS is now asking HeKS to abbreviate his counterarguments, not realizing that their primary function is to cut through (and sift through) a tangled mess of disconnected themes, illogical arguments, unsubstantiated claims, shameless misrepresentations, and gratuitous insults. In such a confused communicative environment, brought on by Keiths's unbridled sophistry, HeKS can hardly be expected to provide an abbreviated response. Somehow, KeithS always seems to get it wrong. The things that can and should be simplified, he makes as complex as possible; the things that require intellectual distinctions and nuances, he oversimplifies to the point of obscenity. Thus, he refuses to unify his own presentation, which ought to be expected, but he asks others to unify his disunity, which borders on the impossible.StephenB
December 6, 2014
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Well Keith, its obvious that you aren't going to answer my question about ONHs in individual development. But to answer your questions from #810, as you seem keen to know where I am coming from I will try to give you an understanding of my position, and in this I speak for myself only. I am not part of any group or organisation on whose behalf I speak. I view things from a holistic perspective and I believe that the whole is reflected in the parts. The unfolding of life as a whole can in some respects be seen in the development of a single organism. The human individual begins as a single cell and in normal development becomes a self-conscious rational being. Compare this to life as a whole. As far as we can tell, life on earth begins in the same way and has now reached the stage where humans have emerged as self-conscious, rational beings. The development of the individual is an emergence of consciousness and the unfolding of life on earth is an evolution of consciousness. You say that guided processes are extremely unlikely to produce an ONH but, contrary to what you believe, that is exactly what we observe in the development of a single organism, (which, you agree, is guided). (HeKS has also given examples of ONHs being produced by human guidance). Goethe proposed that the various species that inhabit the earth are an expression of an archetypal form. If this is indeed the case then an ONH is just what we would expect to see. Each form is guided by the archetype and expresses it as much as it is able. Each form is nested within the type. Please do not think of the archetype as a static, fixed form. Think of it more like a movie than a painting. Please read the short article, "Rebirth of the Type" from http://natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic30/riegner-on-typology.pdf Below I have quoted from the article:
The plasticity and dynamism of the Goethean type are well suited to the relationships we see between groups of organisms. For example, when we look at the cat family (Felidae), we recognize in each of the thirty seven living species “the lawful integration of organic features that constitute the expression of the dynamic type ... As disparate as are a tiger, a mountain lion, and an ocelot, for example, they are but variations on a theme, the One form expressed in the many.” And that form in turn can be seen as one of many forms in the group, Carnivora (wolves, badgers, bears, and so on), which has its own recognizable type of which cats are a subtype. Similarly again with the Carnivora in relation to the still larger group, Mammalia ...until one reaches the Goethean notion of the ur-animal, or single type that comes to expression in all animal forms. Reverting to the plant leaf series: just as the unity of the series along the stem of one plant is just one manifestation of the larger unity of the species (a unity that comes to expression differently in different habitats), so, too, the species is one dynamic manifestation of a broader type and the nesting of subtypes within higher types can in this way continue indefinitely
In my opinion what is written above gives a plausible explanation as to why life appears to be designed the way it is. Asking who of what the designer/s is/are is a legitimate and very worthwhile question, but it is separate and follows on from what is given above. We study the designs from which we get a glimpse of the wisdom of the designer/s.CharlieM
December 6, 2014
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HeKS said: "Furthermore, fitness increases, and morphological changes in general, that are fixed by natural selection and drift result from blunting or breaking existing biological function and genetic information. We do not observe mutations adding up to produce novel complex functionality; not even when we’re the ones instigating the mutations through extensive mutagenesis experiments. Generally, the best we can hope for is that some regulatory switch will get thrown to allow an organism to do in one environment or context something that it already does in another environment or context. And where we observe microevolution producing ONH’s through branching descent, we observe it doing so through loss of genetic information..." Are descendants always less fit than their ancestors due to blunting or breaking existing biological function and loss of genetic information? If so, is that because of 'the fall'? HeKS, you're way out of your depth when it comes to understanding mutations, fitness, natural selection, drift, ONHs, and evolution in general. And will you please define "complex functionality", and demonstrate exactly how you would determine/calculate/measure the difference between "new complex functionality" and "existing biological function"? How complex does a function have to be to be "complex"? Where is the line drawn and why should it be drawn there? How would you determine/calculate/measure the difference between functionality and non-functionality? Where is the line drawn and why should it be drawn there? How would you define 'function'? Are 'functions' always something good or can 'functions' be something bad? In your opinion, is there and has there ever been anything in living things that doesn't have a function? Is there anything in the universe that doesn't have a function? Is there even one atom in this universe that doesn't have a function?Pachyaena
December 6, 2014
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