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ID and Common Descent

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Many, many people seem to misunderstand the relationship between Intelligent Design and Common Descent. Some view ID as being equivalent to Progressive Creationism (sometimes called Old-Earth Creationism), others seeing it as being equivalent to Young-Earth Creationism. I have argued before that the core of ID is not about a specific theory of origins. In fact, many ID’ers hold a variety of views including Progressive Creationism and Young-Earth Creationism.

But another category that is often overlooked are those who hold to both ID and Common Descent, where the descent was purely naturalistic. This view is often considered inconsistent. My goal is to show how this is a consistent proposition.

I should start by noting that I do not myself hold to the Common Descent proposition. Nonetheless, I think that the relationship of ID to Common Descent has been misunderstood enough as to warrant some defense.

The issue is that most people understand common descent entirely from a Darwinian perspective. That is, they assume that the notion of natural selection and gradualism follow along closely to the notion of common descent. However, there is nothing that logically ties these together, especially if you allow for design.

In Darwinism, each feature is a selected accident. Therefore, Darwinian phylogenetic trees often use parsimony as a guide, meaning that it tries to construct a tree so that complex features don’t have to evolve more than once.

The ID version of common descent, however, doesn’t have to play by these rules. The ID version of common descent includes a concept known as frontloading – where the designer designed the original organism so that it would have sufficient information for its later evolution. If one allows for design, there is no reason to assume that the original organism must have been simple. It may in fact have been more complex than any existing organism. There are maximalist versions of this hypothesis, where the original organism had a superhuge genome, and minimalist versions of this hypothesis (such as from Mike Gene) where only the basic outlines of common patterns of pathways were present. Some have objected to the idea of a superhuge genome, on the basis that it isn’t biologically tenable. However, the amoeba has 100x the number of base pairs that a human has, so the carrying capacity of genetic information for a single-cell organism is quite large. I’m going to focus on views that tend towards the maximalist.

Therefore, because of this initial deposit, it makes sense that phylogenetic change would be sudden instead of gradual. If the genetic information already existed, or at least largely existed in the original organism, then time wouldn’t be the barrier for it to come about. It also means that multiple lineages could lead to the same result. There is no reason to think that there was one lineage that lead to tetrapods, for instance. If there were multiple lineages which all were carrying basically the same information, there is no reason why there weren’t multiple tetrapod lineages. It also explains why we find chimeras much more often than we find organs in transition. If the information was already in the genome, then the organ could come into existence all-at-once. It didn’t need to evolve, except to switch on.

Take the flagellum, for instance. Many people criticize Behe for thinking that the flagellum just popped into existence sometime in history, based on irreducible complexity. That is not the argument Behe is making. Behe’s point is that the flagellum, whenever it arose, didn’t arise through a Darwinian mechanism. Instead, it arose through a non-Darwinian mechanism. Perhaps all the components were there, waiting to be turned on. Perhaps there is a meta-language guided the piecing together of complex parts in the cell. There are numerous non-Darwinian evolutionary mechanisms which are possible, several of which have been experimentally demonstrated. [[NOTE – (I would define a mechanism as being non-Darwinian when the mechanism of mutation biases the mutational probability towards mutations which are potentially useful to the organism)]]

Behe’s actual view, as I understand it, actually pushes the origin of information back further. Behe believes that the information came from the original arrangement of matter in the Big Bang. Interestingly, that seems to comport well with the original conception of the Big Bang by LeMaitre, who described the universe’s original configuration as a “cosmic egg”. We think of eggs in terms of ontogeny – a child grows in a systematic fashion (guided by information) to become an adult. The IDists who hold to Common Descent often view the universe that way – it grew, through the original input of information, into an adult form. John A. Davison wrote a few papers on this possibility.

Thus the common ID claim of “sudden appearance” and “fully-formed features” are entirely consistent both with common descent (even fully materialistic) and non-common-descent versions of the theory, because the evolution is guided by information.

There are also interesting mixes of these theories, such as Scherer’s Basic Type Biology. Here, a limited form of common descent is taken, along with the idea that information is available to guide the further diversification of the basic type along specific lines (somewhat akin to Vavilov’s Law). Interestingly, there can also be a common descent interpretation of Basic Type Biology as well, but I’ll leave that alone for now.

Now, you might be saying that the ID form of common descent only involves the origin of life, and therefore has nothing to do with evolution. As I have argued before, abiogenesis actually has a lot to do with the implicit assumptions guiding evolutionary thought. And, as hopefully has been evident from this post, the mode of evolution from an information-rich starting point (ID) is quite different from that of an information-poor starting point (neo-Darwinism). And, if you take common descent to be true, I would argue that ID makes much better sense of what we see (the transitions seem to happen with some information about where they should go next).

Now, you might wonder why I disagree with the notion of common descent. There are several, but I’ll leave you with one I have been contemplating recently. I think that agency is a distinct form of causation from chance and law. That is, things can be done with intention and creativity which could not be done in complete absence of those two. In addition, I think that there are different forms of agency in operation throughout the spectrum of life (I am undecided about whether the lower forms of life such as plants and bacteria have anything which could be considered agency, but I think that, say, most land animals do). In any case, humans seem to engage in a kind of agency that is distinct from other creatures. Therefore, we are left with the question of the origin of such agency. While common descent in combination with ID can sufficiently answer the origin of information, I don’t think it can sufficiently answer the origin of the different kinds of agency.

Comments
Ahhh Clive. I was starting to think of him as a pet. I'll grant that he was starting to tinkle on the rug a bit much. material.infantacy sums it up well at 197 :-)tribune7
January 17, 2010
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Joseph,
IOW it appears that you clowns are being overly selective.
Don't be disrespectful or I will moderate you too. I am only concerned with the name calling, and I don't care to hear any justification for it, just don't do it.Clive Hayden
January 17, 2010
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Clive Hayden, You have, of course, every right to ban the likes of h.pesoj and Voice Coil, and it is helpful that you have given reasons for doing so. However I sense a certain irony when your explanation comes immediately after a comment by Joseph in which he calls his opponents clowns and liars. How long would an ID sceptic last here using that sort of approach?PaulT
January 17, 2010
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tribune7, h.pesoj is the same sock puppet as George L. Farquar. He's no longer with us. I had previously banned him under George, and now he's gone under his backwards "josep.h" name. Also, to whomever is interested, Voice Coil is no longer with us, because that was a sock puppet for Diffaxial, who I had previously banned. In short, they were both old sock puppets from the past, previously banned, and now banned again, nothing new to see here. :)Clive Hayden
January 17, 2010
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Mustela:
I am genuinely interested in learning enough about CSI to be able to implement software to measure it.
I told you how to measure it. IOW you are lying.
In fact, you have specifically claimed that design results in unique, quantifiable characteristics in the thing designed.
I answered that too. IOW it appears that you clowns are being overly selective. And that means you are lying when you say you come here to learn something about ID. All anyone really needs to do is go out and read the pro-ID literature.Joseph
January 17, 2010
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Mustela, in 213 you said "Design is a verb, an action, not a feature of an object." That can be taken as a claim that "design is . . not a feature of an object" since design is obviously a feature of a designed object this would appear to mean you don't accept the existence of such things. I asked for clarification and you declined to give it -- see post 216. So, you do accept the existence of designed objects? The discussion is pointless if you don't.tribune7
January 17, 2010
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tribune7 at 221, If you can’t bring yourself to admit that designed objects exist, how can I expect you to see that they have quantifiable characteristics? I have never claimed that designed objects do not exist. Your intimation that I have is disingenuous and another transparent attempt at distraction. I don't mind beating my head against a wall if there's a chance of breaking through, but I can tell brick when I feel it. You clearly have no support for your claims, nor do you intend to attempt to provide any. It also appears that you have no intention of retracting them. Given all that, my time is better spent looking for answers elsewhere. The floor is yours.Mustela Nivalis
January 17, 2010
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Mustela -- Are you retracting your claims that designed objects have unique characteristics and that those are quantifiable? How do you get that from what I wrote in 216? The answer is no. You can’t even bring yourself to admit that designed objects exist. Your asking that question was just another evasion. If you can't bring yourself to admit that designed objects exist, how can I expect you to see that they have quantifiable characteristics?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 217, You can’t even bring yourself to admit that designed objects exist. Your asking that question was just another evasion. They're getting more and more transparent. Either you have support for your claim that designed objects have unique, quantifiable characteristics or you do not. You can’t simply play word games and define objective observations into existence. Where is your evidence?Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 216, But it is certainly something to ponder whether a methodology could be found that would ascertain any designed object. Are you retracting your claims that designed objects have unique characteristics and that those are quantifiable?Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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Mustela You seem to be straining mightily to avoid supporting your claims. You can't even bring yourself to admit that designed objects exist. How can we have a discussion if you can't agree to the obvious?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Mustela You have claimed that it can be done, not just for some things but for any designed object. Actually, ID declares it won't work with many if not most designed objects. But it is certainly something to ponder whether a methodology could be found that would ascertain any designed object.tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 214, You seem to be saying designed objects don’t exist. Is that correct? You seem to be straining mightily to avoid supporting your claims. Allow me to repeat again: Either you have support for your claim that designed objects have unique, quantifiable characteristics or you do not. You can’t simply play word games and define objective observations into existence. Where is your evidence?Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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Mustela, My response was intended to point out that your phrasing presumed the existence of some kind of platonic ideal of “design.” But my phrasing does not presume that. I agree that design is an action -- verb if you will. My point, however, is that it is a intrinsic part of reality and with which we interact. Design is . . . not a feature of an object. You seem to be saying designed objects don't exist. Is that correct?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Aleta at 207, Thanks, Tribune. h.pesoj made it clear that he was trying to be provocative, but Mustala, Rob and me are, as far as I can tell, sincerely wanting to discuss the issues with people with whom we disagree in order to have the benefits, for ourselves and others, of a constructive dialog. That is certainly my intention. I don't believe that any of my posts here could be objectively judged as trolling. I am genuinely interested in learning enough about CSI to be able to implement software to measure it. Frankly, I'm very surprised that this hasn't been calculated and published by one of the ID luminaries. It would immediately refute a number of criticisms frequently leveled against ID.Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 198, Mustela — "We have observed humans performing an activity we call design." I’ll take that as a yes. Your question was "OK, let’s take a step back. Do you believe that design exists?" My response was intended to point out that your phrasing presumed the existence of some kind of platonic ideal of "design." All we know for sure is that humans have been observed to design things. Design is a verb, an action, not a feature of an object. Is it possible to determine conclusively that there were things that came into existence due to this activity even though we did not witness the creation? You have claimed that it can be done, not just for some things but for any designed object. In fact, you have specifically claimed that design results in unique, quantifiable characteristics in the thing designed. What you have not done is to identify those characteristics or show how to measure them. I'll repeat the part of my post 197 that you failed to address: Either you have support for your claim that designed objects have unique, quantifiable characteristics or you do not. You can’t simply play word games and define objective observations into existence. Where is your evidence?Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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Thanks, Tribune. h.pesoj made it clear that he was trying to be provocative, but Mustala, Rob and me are, as far as I can tell, sincerely wanting to discuss the issues with people with whom we disagree in order to have the benefits, for ourselves and others, of a constructive dialog.Aleta
January 16, 2010
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Joseph, Oh be nice to Aleta. She wasn't trolling. Neither was R0b, I think. Now the others . . . . .tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7- (backwards me, Cala, Rob, Aleta are all knelling in front of Jimmy with their hands tied behind their back) We measure information with a dipstick, see. So now we're going to measure the information between your ears, see. (blood-curdling screams in the background) This one is empty, see. Nothing on the 'stick, see.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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Jimmy Cagney We all know where this is going, see. Except it does not work, see. But I won’t be reading, see. Hiya, Jimmy.tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Aleta:
And in No Free Lunch, despite what Dembski says about chance and necessity working together, the example he uses is just another calculation based on a pure chance arrangement of components.
So what? Is he supposed to provide all examples? BTW coin flips take into account necessity- the coin has to fall. Dice- same thing. IOW Aleta your statement is meaningless.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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designed objects have unique, quantifiable characteristic It's called counterflow. And to refute the design inference just show that the observed counterflow is illusory.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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backwards me tghinking backwards:
Not unless you’ve observed a designer creating life already.
Science isn't about absolute proof.
The fact is life and the relationships beween the different branches of the tree of life look as we would expect them to if there was no designer other then evolution.
Evolution isn't being debated and it doesn't predict any pattern. IOW your spewage is laid bare.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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As I said in another opening post, Ghost Hunters use the EF. backwards me:
And what ghosts have they found then?
Quite a few- just watch the show. However that is irrelevant. The point is the process works. It all depends on the people using it and the evidence they have.Joseph
January 16, 2010
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h.pesoj: "Could I be sliently banned please?" If you want to be silently banned, there's a procedure to follow: Step 1: Get in over your head while debating ID proponents. Step 2: Respond to questions with snarky jabs intended to score points with your peers on some other blog. These should be of the type which make it clear that you do not consider your opponents to be intellectual or cultural equals. If you are impressed with your own cleverness in these comments, chances are you're hitting the mark. Step 3: Post inappropriate content to the moderation queue (yes you will need to be under moderation for this to work, so plan ahead). Do this until you are banned. This is really the crucial step, because it allows you to duck out of the conversation while saving face. Step 4: Claim the moral and intellectual high ground. This is really an extension of Step 3, and will require that at least some of your online peers are uncritical, servile groupies. Any discerning types will perceive the grift, although they will probably remain silent (you know, for the cause). Step 5: (Optional) Send a few lackeys over to make noise. These toadies should be the dull but loyal, expendable sort. The duller the better. You'll probably have a few volunteers. Step 6: (Optional) Have your lackeys invent a moral indignity (this should be original!) such as "silent banning" and claim it as an offense. Good luck! ___________________________________ Advertisement: To make a difference in the fight against silent banning, please make a donation to End Silent Banning Today. Make sure to include your mailing address in order to receive your chartreuse ribbon and permanent bumper sticker!material.infantacy
January 16, 2010
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Mustela -- We have observed humans performing an activity we call design. I'll take that as a yes. Is it possible to determine conclusively that there were things that came into existence due to this activity even though we did not witness the creation?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 196, Mustela — "I reject the contention that it is a principle." OK, let’s take a step back. Do you believe that design exists? We have observed humans performing an activity we call design. I fail to see what you are trying to argue here. Either you have support for your claim that designed objects have unique, quantifiable characteristics or you do not. You can't simply play word games and define objective observations into existence. Where is your evidence?Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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Mustela -- I reject the contention that it is a principle. OK, let's take a step back. Do you believe that design exists?tribune7
January 16, 2010
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Aleta-- Your dismissal of ID is based on you being able to imagine situations in which it fails . . .I have clearly stated that I am not rejecting design. And I didn't say you were. I said you were rejecting ID. And it's been fun :-)tribune7
January 16, 2010
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tribune7 at 174, Mustela — Design has unique characteristics. . . "That’s not a principle, it’s an assertion about an observation." It’s an assertion of a principle. Do you accept or reject the claim? I reject the contention that it is a principle. You are claiming that designed objects have unique characteristics and that these characteristics are quantifiable. If you want to support your claim, identify at least one characteristic that is unique to designed objects and demonstrate how to measure that characteristic. Unless and until you can do that, your claim is baseless.Mustela Nivalis
January 16, 2010
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