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ID Foundations, 3: Irreducible Complexity as concept, as fact, as [macro-]evolution obstacle, and as a sign of design

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[ID Found’ns Series, cf. also Bartlett here]

Irreducible complexity is probably the most violently objected to foundation stone of Intelligent Design theory. So, let us first of all define it by slightly modifying Dr Michael Behe’s original statement in his 1996 Darwin’s Black Box [DBB]:

What type of biological system could not be formed by “numerous successive, slight modifications?” Well, for starters, a system that is irreducibly complex. By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the [core] parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. [DBB, p. 39, emphases and parenthesis added. Cf. expository remarks in comment 15 below.]

Behe proposed this definition in response to the following challenge by Darwin in Origin of Species:

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case . . . . We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind. [Origin, 6th edn, 1872, Ch VI: “Difficulties of the Theory.”]

In fact, there is a bit of question-begging by deck-stacking in Darwin’s statement: we are dealing with empirical matters, and one does not have a right to impose in effect outright logical/physical impossibility — “could not possibly have been formed” — as a criterion of test.

If, one is making a positive scientific assertion that complex organs exist and were credibly formed by gradualistic, undirected change through chance mutations and differential reproductive success through natural selection and similar mechanisms, one has a duty to provide decisive positive evidence of that capacity. Behe’s onward claim is then quite relevant: for dozens of key cases, no credible macro-evolutionary pathway (especially no detailed biochemical and genetic pathway) has been empirically demonstrated and published in the relevant professional literature. That was true in 1996, and despite several attempts to dismiss key cases such as the bacterial flagellum [which is illustrated at the top of this blog page] or the relevant part of the blood clotting cascade [hint: picking the part of the cascade — that before the “fork” that Behe did not address as the IC core is a strawman fallacy], it arguably still remains to today.

Now, we can immediately lay the issue of the fact of irreducible complexity as a real-world phenomenon to rest.

For, a situation where core, well-matched, and co-ordinated parts of a system are each necessary for and jointly sufficient to effect the relevant function is a commonplace fact of life. One that is familiar from all manner of engineered systems; such as, the classic double-acting steam engine:

Fig. A: A double-acting steam engine (Courtesy Wikipedia)

Such a steam engine is made up of rather commonly available components: cylinders, tubes, rods, pipes, crankshafts, disks, fasteners, pins, wheels, drive-belts, valves etc. But, because a core set of well-matched parts has to be carefully organised according to a complex “wiring diagram,” the specific function of the double-acting  steam engine is not explained by the mere existence of the parts.

Nor, can simply choosing and re-arranging similar parts from say a bicycle or an old-fashioned car or the like create a viable steam engine.  Specific mutually matching parts [matched to thousandths of an inch usually], in a very specific pattern of organisation, made of specific materials, have to be in place, and they have to be integrated into the right context [e.g. a boiler or other source providing steam at the right temperature and pressure], for it to work.

If one core part breaks down or is removed — e.g. piston, cylinder, valve, crank shaft, etc., core function obviously ceases.

Irreducible complexity is not only a concept but a fact.

But, why is it said that irreducible complexity is a barrier to Darwinian-style [macro-]evolution and a credible sign of design in biological systems?

First, once we are past a reasonable threshold of complexity, irreducible complexity [IC] is a form of functionally specific complex organisation and implied information [FSCO/I], i.e. it is a case of the specified complexity that is already immediately a strong sign of design on which the design inference rests. (NB: Cf. the first two articles in the ID foundations series — here and here.)

Fig. B, on the exploded, and nodes and arcs “wiring diagram” views of how a complex, functionally specific entity is assembled, will help us see this:

Fig. B (i): An exploded view of a gear pump. (Courtesy, Wikipedia)

Fig. B(ii): A Piping  and Instrumentation Diagram, illustrating how nodes, interfaces and arcs are “wired” together in a functional mesh network (Source: Wikimedia, HT: Citizendia; also cf. here, on polygon mesh drawings.)

We may easily see from Fig. B (i) and (ii) how specific components — which may themselves be complex — sit at nodes in a network, and are wired together in a mesh that specifies interfaces and linkages. From this, a set of parts and wiring instructions can be created, and reduced to a chain of contextual yes/no decisions. On the simple functionally specific bits metric, once that chain exceeds 1,000 decisions, we have an object that is so complex that it is not credible that the whole universe serving as a search engine, could credibly produce this spontaneously without intelligent guidance. And so, once we have to have several well-matched parts arranged in a specific “wiring diagram” pattern to achieve a function, it is almost trivial to run past 125 bytes [= 1,000 bits] of implied function-specifying information.

Of the significance of such a view, J. S Wicken observed in 1979:

‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.  Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]

Indeed, the implication of that complex, information-rich functionally specific organisation is the source of Sir Fred Hoyle’s metaphor of comparing the idea of spontaneous assembly of such an entity to a tornado in a junkyard assembling a flyable 747 out of parts that are just lying around.

Similarly, it is not expected that if one were to do a Humpty Dumpty experiment — setting up a cluster of vials with sterile saline solution with nutrients and putting in each a bacterium then pricking it so the contents of the cell leak out — it is not expected that in any case, the parts would spontaneously re-assemble to yield a viable bacterial colony.

But also, IC is a barrier to the usual suggested counter-argument, co-option or exaptation based on a conveniently available cluster of existing or duplicated parts. For instance, Angus Menuge has noted that:

For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:

C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function.

C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time.

C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed.

C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant.

C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.

( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

In short, the co-ordinated and functional organisation of a complex system  is itself a factor that needs credible explanation.

However, as Luskin notes for the iconic flagellum, “Those who purport to explain flagellar evolution almost always only address C1 and ignore C2-C5.” [ENV.]

And yet, unless all five factors are properly addressed, the matter has plainly not been adequately explained. Worse, the classic attempted rebuttal, the Type Three Secretory System [T3SS] is not only based on a subset of the genes for the flagellum [as part of the self-assembly the flagellum must push components out of the cell], but functionally, it works to help certain bacteria prey on eukaryote organisms. Thus, if anything the T3SS is not only a component part that has to be integrated under C1 – 5, but it is credibly derivative of the flagellum and an adaptation that is subsequent to the origin of Eukaryotes. Also, it is just one of several components, and is arguably itself an IC system. (Cf Dembski here.)

Going beyond all of this, in the well known Dover 2005 trial, and citing ENV, ID lab researcher Scott Minnich has testified to a direct confirmation of the IC status of the flagellum:

Scott Minnich has properly tested for irreducible complexity through genetic knock-out experiments he performed in his own laboratory at the University of Idaho. He presented this evidence during the Dover trial, which showed that the bacterial flagellum is irreducibly complex with respect to its complement of thirty-five genes. As Minnich testified: One mutation, one part knock out, it can’t swim. Put that single gene back in we restore motility. Same thing over here. We put, knock out one part, put a good copy of the gene back in, and they can swim. By definition the system is irreducibly complex. We’ve done that with all 35 components of the flagellum, and we get the same effect. [Dover Trial, Day 20 PM Testimony, pp. 107-108. Unfortunately, Judge Jones simply ignored this fact reported by the researcher who did the work, in the open court room.]

That is, using “knockout” techniques, the 35 relevant flagellar proteins in a target bacterium were knocked out then restored one by one.

The pattern for each DNA-sequence: OUT — no function, BACK IN — function restored.

Thus, the flagellum is credibly empirically confirmed as irreducibly complex.

The “Knockout Studies” concept — a research technique that rests directly on the IC property of many organism features –needs some explanation.

[Continues here]

Comments
KF@66 F = d/dt [P] is powerful precisely because it captures some very complex operations in brief symbols. ....exactly; just as a complex pattern is implicit in the "simple" Mandlebrot algorithm.Timothy V Reeves
January 28, 2011
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KF @ 66 Don't over interpret natural language - it works on fuzzy logicTimothy V Reeves
January 28, 2011
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lastyearon:
I seem to have made my point to Joseph and Collin. They have agreed that Irreducibly Complex systems could have evolved (although they say it is highly unlikely).
Even Dr Behe said he wouldn't categorically deny that those systems could have evolved by Darwinian processes, but it would defy all logic, reason and evidence. Bottom of page 203 of "Darwin's Black Box":
Might there be an as-yet undiscovered natural process that would explain biological complexity? No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility. Nonetheless, we can say that if there is such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further, it would go against all human experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers.
And THAT is why it is up to the evidence, data, observations and experiences- that is it has to be demonstrated tat blind, undirected chemical processes can construct functioning multi-part systems. To date no such demonstration exists. Hot air and rhetoric will not refute IC as evidence for ID.Joseph
January 28, 2011
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TVR: Elegant explanatory power is not "simplistic." Einstein hinted at that: everything should be as simple as possible but not simpler than that. "Simple" tensor, matrix or differential equation etc expressions are brief because they enfold powerful symbols. They are elegant, even algorithmic -- I think here of the whole world of operators in mathematics: s, D, and the like -- but are not simplistic. F = d/dt [P] is powerful precisely because it captures some very complex operations in brief symbols. Similarly, for dW = F*dx. As for E = m*c^2, a whole world lurks to be unpacked therein. Then, too, unification in powerful theories is one thing, for things that show lawlike regularities, but when it comes to things that have agent causes, that agency must be respected. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 28, 2011
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KF at 59 ...the notion that an explanation must be simpler than its effect is nonsense. ...so true I feel! This realisation urgently needs to be taken on-board by scientific culture. I completely concur: Simple observations may in fact be the outcome of a complex nexus of causes as we routinely see, for example, in historical and sociological explanation. That the objects of physics, however, reverse this order by the derivation of complex patterns using "simple" algorithms seems itself to be a remarkable, inexplicable, and clever "engineering" contrivance with no apparent logical warrant. This process of "simplification" or "data compression" in physics can't go on indefinitely; eventually a kernel of "incompressible brute fact" is reached. The upshot is that physics itself is logically incapable of embodying its own "self-explanation" as to why its elemental recipes of description work. Its ultimate explanatory incompleteness is thus guaranteed. Self-explanation will never come from physics. Therefore the meta-explanation of physics is, I suggest, to be found not in simplicity but in the a-priori complex - probably the infinitely complex; for me personally that unpacks to mean providence/intelligence - and that's one of the reasons I have a faith.Timothy V Reeves
January 28, 2011
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BA: Thanks, interesting. Gkairosfocus
January 28, 2011
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kf, you might appreciate this: http://www.detectingdesign.com/flagellum.html#Appendix and this: Functional Complexity Paper http://www.detectingdesign.com/flagellum.html#Calculationbornagain77
January 28, 2011
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OOPS!kairosfocus
January 28, 2011
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kf, Thanks for the encouragement. Actually, the magnet example is from the Physics article in Wikipedia. It is amazing that just one sentence after stating: Physics aims to describe the various phenomenon that occur in nature in terms of simpler phenomena. It continues as: For example, the ancient Chinese observed that certain rocks (lodestone) were attracted to one another by some invisible force. This effect was later called magnetism, and was first rigorously studied in the 17th century. A little earlier than the Chinese, the ancient Greeks knew of other objects such as amber, that when rubbed with fur would cause a similar invisible attraction between the two. This was also first studied rigorously in the 17th century, and came to be called electricity. Thus, physics had come to understand two observations of nature in terms of some root cause (electricity and magnetism). However, further work in the 19th century revealed that these two forces were just two different aspects of one force – electromagnetism. This process of "unifying" forces continues today, and electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force are now considered to be two aspects of the electroweak interaction. Physics hopes to find an ultimate reason (Theory of Everything) for why nature is as it is (see section Current research below for more information). My congratulations to the author for demonstrating how to describe a phenomenon using simpler phenomena! Perhaps it would have been better to write: One of the aims of physics is to discover if certain different observable phenomena can be explained as the various manifestations of the same property of matter.Alex73
January 28, 2011
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F/N: Re Carbon-copy: Methinks, dey's been readin deir Dawkins, or at least the web[log] sites that echo him. Cf Vox Day on the New Atheists -- free PPT download; his book is here at Amazon, his freebie download page seems down at the moment. Gkairosfocus
January 28, 2011
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Alex73: the notion that an explanation must be simpler than its effect is nonsense. I explain this post, and I am a lot more complex than the text of a post! So, let us correct:
Explanations need to be simple ADEQUATE AND WELL-WARRANTED
A magnet is actually a relativistic phenomenon . . . in effect, in material part, the left-over part of Coulombic attraction when the moving charges are not in our frame of reference. That puts us past Augustin Coulomb to Albert Einstein and taking an imaginary ride on a beam of light then inferring the consequences thereof: On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies. (Yup, the actual original paper, in English translation. You try to figure it out without a College level physics education.) Then, we have to head for unpaired spins of ferromagnetic materials a la Pauli's exclusion principle, with a dash of Heisenberg on uncertainty just for fun. And, just what is the spin of an electron, a wavicle that looks like a particle or a wave depending on how you look at it just now? And, more . . . The fact of a magnet picking up a pin is easy to demonstrate. Its explanatory cause, on serious analysis, is anything but as simple: a grand tour of the past 150 years of physics! So, the absurdity of the demand for "simple" explanations is patent. In a more serious form, the principle is the Occam razor: explanatory hypotheses or entities should not be multiplied without NECESSITY. But, agents are obviously real as experienced and observed fact, so unless you can rule out an agent ahead of time, the inference to absurdly good luck is a manifestation of insistent question-begging, not reasonableness. As, I have explored at length earlier at no 56; adding a footnote on just this issue at point 15. Your co-worker probably needs to look at his worldview foundations in light of first principles of right reason, maybe this discussion will help. All this is beginning to sound like a Plato's Cave world! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 28, 2011
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kf, The story is, that there is a bright young chap here, with whom I started an argument about ID vs evolution. His position was the carbon copy of LastYearOn's stand: Evolution has happened. I do not care about the extreme improbability of the chain of events, after all, the whole universe is improbable, nevertheless it exists. And also, using an intelligent agent to explain the existence of a single protein is not scientific, because it tries to explain something simple with something complex. He admitted that he can recognise effects of human intelligence but was unwilling to explain how he does it, when he is willing to believe any improbable thing. I was caught off guard with his demand for the explanation being always simpler than the phenomenon. Later I found the same statement in the Physiscs article in Wikipedia. Ever since I was thinking about it and came to the conclusion that it can be used as a rhetorical trap, since the definition os "simple" and "complex" can be re-defined at any time. For example, magnets attract iron but do not attract stone. Even a child can understand it. Nevertheless, the full explanation for this phenomenon requires a university degree to understand. Now, is the explanation really simpler than the phenomenon?Alex73
January 28, 2011
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KB & BD: Well said. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 28, 2011
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LYO: While I express appreciation for your comments to date, which help us all understand why there is such a sharp difference on the import of irreducible complexity as empirically warranted sign pointing to design, I must observe that we seem to be moving to a The Matrix world discussion. That is, re, 52:
I seem to have made my point to Joseph and Collin. They have agreed that Irreducibly Complex systems could have evolved (although they say it is highly unlikely). That is all I’m looking for in this thread. I’ll finish by saying that every single event that has ever happened in this universe was highly unlikely, and yet they all happened. The evolution of life on earth is no exception.
But, the point of what is logically/physically barely possible in the abstract was never in dispute. For instance, it is logically and physically, empirically possible -- and inherently observationally indistinguishable from the world we think we inhabit -- that the whole cosmos, including our memories of the past that we think we experienced -- was actually created in an instant five minutes ago. Possibility and plausibility on inference to best and most responsible explanation are utterly distinct matters. (In short, only if -- as in the movie The Matrix [and, this is the root of that movie] -- we can discover some gap that allows us to see that we are living in a Plato's Cave world of deceptive shadow-shows, would we empirically justify such an ultimate conspiracist view of reality. Cf. discussions here and here. In short, logical/physical possibility cannot adequately warrant any serious claim about the state of affairs in the real world, on pain of reduction to the Plato's Cave or Brains in Vats or Russell five minute universe absurdities of the esoteric philosophy seminar room.) Unfortunately, you therefore have here fallen into the error of conflating logical/physical possibility with empirical plausibility sufficient to achieve warrant on inference to best explanation in light of relevant probabilities given the search resources of our observable cosmos. (As a first reference, kindly read Abel's remarks on the universal plausibility bound here, in "The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP)." This -- for whatever peer review is worth -- is a peer-reviewed article from Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 2009, 6:27, and it was already brought to your attention by BA 77.) In steps: 1 --> Right from the beginning, in Origin, Darwin in Ch VI -- as noted in the OP -- unfortunately stacked the deck:
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case . . . . We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind. [Origin, 6th edn, 1872, Ch VI: "Difficulties of the Theory."]
2 --> To compare, it is logically/physically possible for all the O2 molecules in the room in which you sit to spontaneously unmix themselves and flow to one end, leaving you gasping for breath. 3 --> But, such is so utterly unlikely on the distribution of possible configurations that if we were to see a room in which the O2 molecules were all at one end, we would immediately infer that the best, most reasonable explanation, was a deliberate intervention. 4 --> Indeed, when we look at the warrant for the second law of thermodynamics in its statistical form, we see that the principle is: the overwhelmingly most likely observed state of a system, and the overwhelmingly likely trend will be towards clusters of states that dominate the possible distributions of mass and energy under the set macroscopic circumstances. 5 --> So, while the situation where the O2 molecules in a room have all rushed to one end is logically/physically possible, it is so deeply isolated in the cluster of possible states, that on the gamut of the observable universe across its thermodynamically credible lifespan, it is utterly unlikely to occur once spontaneously. 6 --> But, as a thought experiment, if a Maxwell-type Demon sits as gatekeeper at a threshold, he can allow O2 molecules to pass to the relevant [say, RH] side, and block other molecules, eventually achieving: || * * * * : o2 o2 o2 o2 || 7 --> To do so, the demon has set a purpose, applied knowledge based information, and has manipulated the materials, forces and circumstances of nature to achieve that end. 8 --> So, we can see that not event the second law of thermodynamics would be warranted on Darwin's standard; yet, it is in fact one of the most empirically reliable of all laws of physics: in a closed system, entropy is at least constant and tends to increase, and in an open one it implies that raw injection of energy tends to make entropy increase, also. 9 --> As was discussed on p.1 of the ID Foundations series, no 2 [cf. Fig. A & context], to reliably get constructive work out of energy injected into an open system, the energy has to be coupled in a specific, functional way; much as our demon just above. 10 --> Why is that? A: because of the balance of accessible configurations in the space of possible configs. Once we see a pattern of deeply isolated recognisable islands of function or arrangement, sitting in a sea of overwhelmingly many non-functional configs, the observable universe does not have the search resources to credibly spontaneously get us to the shores of such an island, across its entire lifespan. So, if we are in fact at such an island of function or otherwise special configuration, we should go looking for an intelligent, purposeful explanation. 11 --> To again highlight, if the specification for the island of function takes up just 1,000 bits or 125 bytes, we are looking at 1.07*10^301 possible configs. The whole observed universe of ~10^80 atoms, changing state every Planck time [rounded down to 10^-45 s; about 20 orders of magnitude faster than nuclear particle interactions], for the thermodynamically credible lifespan of ~ 10^25 s [about 50 million times longer than the 13.7 BY said to have elapsed since the Big Bang] would experience only 10^150 states. In short, the scope of spontaneous search is so tiny relative to the space of configs, that we have not even begun to look for the needle in the haystack. the search, for practical purposes, rounds down to zero scope. 12 --> In this context, to rest on what is logically/physically possible as opposed to what is empirically plausible [Abel's 2009 paper], is to rely on the materialistic equivalent of miracles; often by imposing question-begging criteria such as methodological naturalism. 13 --> Lewontin, inadvertently, shows the question-begging, but often militantly defiant reduction to absurdity (as well as the common underlying motivation) involved in such a resort:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.]
14 --> Such selective hyperskepticism motivated by worldview agendas, is patently absurd and closed-minded, i.e. -- unfortunately -- irrational. 15 --> It is of a piece with the notion of thinking it reasonable that, by chance, rocks rolling down a hillside by the railway running into Wales by happy coincidence just happen to have fallen into the configuration: WELCOME TO WALES, and thinking one is well-warranted to believe such a message.
{Let me add: It is physically and logically possible that this post is the product of lucky noise on the Internet. Do we then default to such lucky noise as the default explanation for such posts? Obviously not -- the odds on favourite effect of noise [a modern equivalent to the Victorian monkeys at keyboards] would be chaos:jrfehygbejhiuev, not a contextually responsive post in more or less accordance with the symbols and rules of English. So long as an agent acting as initiating cause is credibly possible, when we see FSCO/I, we habitually infer to design as cause. In short, the resort you are making above is implicitly to Lewontinian a priori evolutionary materialism. That runs you afoul of the self-refuting, self-referentially absurd and question-begging consequences of that view, as are detailed here and continuing here.}
16 --> In short, the issue is not that any particular outcome is rare in the cluster of possible configs of atoms in our cosmos, so the one we see is just as reasonable as any other. Instead, it is that the micro-possibilities cluster in blocs, the overwhelming number of which are decidedly non-functional. So, since we have a known, routinely observed [and only observed] source of getting to such deeply isolated clusters of functional configs, the empirically well warranted inference is that that cause is at work, since the alternative, chance, is so overwhelmingly unlikely to get to such. 17 --> To see how corrosive the chance maximisation view is, if chance governs all, it is logically and physically possible that every case where we were thinking we have observed a lawlike regularity that is merest coincidence of chance. So, by giving chance the default like that, if we were consistent, we have no reason to infer to natural law! 18 --> To resolve the situation, the reasonable approach is as was laid out in the ID Foundations series, no 1: we intuitively and instinctively use an explanatory filter that looks for natural regularities first, then chance contingency, then choice contingency; on empirically reliable signs. 19 --> Scientific methods simply systematise that common-sense approach. _______________ In short, the proper question in a scientific context is not what is logically or physically possible, but what is empirically, observationally well-warranted as the best explanation. And, irreducibly complex, functionally specific complex organisation, on such observationally grounded warrant, is best explained by intentionally directed contingency. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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UPDATE: I have explicitly pointed out on p.1 of the OP that, under the circumstances of requiring several well-matched components that have to be arranged in particular functional ways according to a wiring diagram, "it is almost trivial to run past 125 bytes [= 1,000 bits] of implied function-specifying information." (Just think: (a) a technical drawing for a component as a rule easily exceeds 125 bytes, (b) a wiring diagram-type drawing for such components similarly easily exceeds the threshold, (c) just one 300- AA typical chain length protein will be at the threshold, (d) the requirement to send several [for the flagellum, 30 - 40 or so] proteins to a particular location and assemble them in a particular order also easily exceeds that threshold. That is why the IC criterion's definition does not explicitly need to address the FSCO/I threshold. But, that this is implied -- even for something as allegedly simple as a mousetrap (think about how delicately matched the parts have to be for it to reliably work) -- should be appreciated.kairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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Lastyearon: I wrote a strongly critical review of Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True at Amazon, which spawned a discussion in which I was the only Darwin critic facing five or six Darwinists, so I can sympathize with your position in this thread. My take on the whole issue of IC is that while you are correct that IC does not PROVE that Darwinian evolution is false (proving a theory false is notoriously difficult), it does shift the burden of proof. If you or anyone believes that the Darwinian explanation is correct, it's not enough just to say, "Well, irreducibly complex systems COULD possibly have arisen through the cooption of simpler subsystems that performed different functions," particularly given the huge number of IC systems in the full range of living organisms. If you want to demonstrate that Darwinism is the correct explanation, you have to provide plausible paths for these IC systems. Otherwise, your belief in the truth of Darwinism is just blind faith. So if you believe that the flagellum and the blood clotting cascade and feathered flight and sexual reproduction and on and on arose through Darwinian processes, it is up to you to show how each could have arisen through a series of mutations each of which conferred some plausible fitness advantage and was within the probabilistic resources available. And you should note that this challenge has been laid down since long before Behe wrote Darwin's Black Box (see Denton's discussion of the avian lung in Darwinism, a Theory in Crisis), and not one such explanation has been forthcoming from any of the supporters of Darwinism, ever. And yet they continue to insist that "Evolution is a fact."Bruce David
January 27, 2011
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LastYearOn: "That is all I’m looking for in this thread. I’ll finish by saying that every single event that has ever happened in this universe was highly unlikely, and yet they all happened. The evolution of life on earth is no exception." That's not a scientific argument. At any rate, any particular deal of a deck of cards is just as unlikely as another. However, if you pulled up a royal flush ten times in a row at a poker game there would be justifiable reason to suspect that more than "random chance" was at work. This is unlikely on a much higher order of magnitude than a random deal of the deck. Is it "possible?" Why sure it is. Is it plausible. Not in the face of a better explanation, such as intent. The arguments of ID are that for some features within biological systems, the more plausible explanation is intend. If you're happy with the more unlikely explanation, than, why, feel free to hang on to it. But I would keep an open mind.kornbelt888
January 27, 2011
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In post #41 from Collin:
I think that the principle of IC is not a direct refutation of evolution, but it, like many other things, makes evolution very unlikely.
And in post #48 from Joseph:
And seeing that any given living organism is the epitome of IC, then yes their origin is doubtful via blind, undirected chemical processes.
I seem to have made my point to Joseph and Collin. They have agreed that Irreducibly Complex systems could have evolved (although they say it is highly unlikely). That is all I'm looking for in this thread. I'll finish by saying that every single event that has ever happened in this universe was highly unlikely, and yet they all happened. The evolution of life on earth is no exception.lastyearon
January 27, 2011
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LastYearOn: "Irreducible Complexity is meant as an argument against evolution" Incorrect. IC is an argument again blind watchmaker evolution. Learn the difference. "However by saying that the individual parts of an IC system could have had their own functions in the past, you effectively remove IC as an objection to evolution." That parts of an aircraft could be used for different functions is not an argument against them being used in an aircraft. Their existence neither falsifies nor confirms the hypothesis.kornbelt888
January 27, 2011
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Biological Scale Factor? At smaller scale IC really seems more 'apparent' , concrete or obvious. In the 'Macro scale' it 'seems' more plausible that general 'parts' could meld and cobble together. At the smallest scale that we are seeing where the 'parts' are indivisible - actual molecules and molecular assemblies - it seems much more constrained and the IC much more glaring.butifnot
January 27, 2011
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Alex73 Could you tell us the story? It would be something to hear . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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kf, Thanks. Matteo, Sorry. I had a colleague who a few weeks ago said exactly the same thing, exactly the same way. I thought it was real...Alex73
January 27, 2011
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lastyearon:
If a living system exhibits Irreducible Complexity, does that mean that it couldn’t have been a product of evolution? I would like to get an answer to this for my own clarification. Thanks.
Irreducible complexity is a barrier for blind, undirected chemical processes. That said depending on the complexity- ie the number of core components- the bigger the barrier. And seeing that any given living organism is the epitome of IC, then yes their origin is doubtful via blind, undirected chemical processes. IC systems, including living organisms, could (have) evolve(d) via targeted searches, ie by design.Joseph
January 27, 2011
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lastyearon:
Can parts of IC systems have functions of their own?
Yes. I linked to an article by Dr Behe explaining that very thing. Either you didn't read it (bad form) or didn't understand it. So which is it?Joseph
January 27, 2011
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lastyearon:
Irreducible Complexity is meant as an argument against evolution.
No. Irreducible Complexity is meant as an argument against the blind watchmaker, ie blind, undirected chemical processes. lastyearon:
However by saying that the individual parts of an IC system could have had their own functions in the past, you effectively remove IC as an objection to evolution.
So you didn't understand what Dr Behe said about that. Interesting.Joseph
January 27, 2011
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Interesting series kairos. My first post here. I don't reject evolution but logic of your posts is quite powerful. I would like to see biologist come here and try to bring it down. While ago I came across http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html . Professor McDonald used animated pictures and what seemed a very sound logic while trying to refute Behe’s irreducibly complex mousetrap idea. Miller used this example as well. Being practical guy I decided to test step 1 on that page. After all how complicated can it be to bend some wire? Boy, was I ever surprised. After hours of hammering pieces of wires I learned a few things. First, you have to come up with lots of good excuses to your wife for why are you making banging noises in the garage for hours. Second, if you want to make functional mouse trap from a piece of wire many things are critical. OTOH there is nothing critical if you need just bent piece of wire. Critical requirements will "make or break" functional mouse trap. They have to happen at the same time, too. Critical things are wire material, its thickness (diameter), length, size (curvature) of bends, alignment of ends. For example: at first look two wires could look the same but small end misalignment will make one just piece of bent wire and the other one a functional mouse trap. Step one was extremely difficult, I couldn't even think of step two. At the end, I fully understand respected professors used wire slowly progressing into a full mouse trap as analogy but I could not resist little fun to see if it really works. Unfortunately, it doesn't. Looks like even one component could be "irreducible" if it will be used for specialized function.Eugen
January 27, 2011
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H'mm: I forgot. In UTech, Jamaica's sculpture park, the sculpture for engineering is an Iron Horse made out of junkyard car parts. No tornadoes or hurricanes were detained as suspects. Gkairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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Kairosfocus, Agreed. I wonder if lastyearon will say that it would be less suspicious if the legs were made of a co-opted steam engine parts.Collin
January 27, 2011
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Collin: An interesting example. I note, the arches in nature -- usually formed by erosion -- are not made from discrete parts. Thus, in the relevant sense, such is not complex. perhaps Dembski's elaborated form of the IC definition will help amplify:
A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, nonarbitrarily individuated [i.e. we do not impose the division by an act of will] parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system's basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system. (No Free Lunch, 285)
If I saw an arch formed out of what seemed to be ashlars or bricks mortared together [i.e. it is now complex], in a claimed natural situation, I would be "suspicious." But an arch that seems to be the result of erosion is not suspicious. GEMkairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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UPDATE: In further response to LYO, have added Fig. B(ii) on P & ID diagrams, with some further clarification on functional organisation. I have cited Wicken, 1979, and further underscored how functional organisation, even when based on existing components, is itself an information-rich step to an irreducibly complex entity that has to be explained. (It seems the previous reference to bicycle and car components being converted into steam engines was perhaps not enough to make the specific point clear.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 27, 2011
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