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In time for American Thanksgiving: Stephen Meyer on “the frailty of scientific atheism”

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Steve Meyer, author of The Return of the God Hypothesis, observes in a pdocast with Wesley Smith, “you rarely hear people refer to a ‘consensus’ in science when there actually is one.”

What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.” Meyer would like to see more scientific debate, across the board, from climate change to Darwinian evolution to “many issues that have arisen in response to the Covid epidemic.” I couldn’t agree more. I want to offer a thought about something that underlies the impulse to clamp down on debate, and it relates to Thanksgiving.

At the end of the podcast they touch on the fragility, the brittleness of the materialist picture of reality. Materialism is as oppressive as it is because it can’t afford one slip-up, not one exception to the iron rule that nothing exists beyond nature. Wesley cites a fascinating interview with two well known “proud atheists,” Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker and his wife, the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein. She wrote a particularly good book that I read when it came out, Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. Both are committed to Spinoza-style rationalism. In the interview with Salon, Pinker and Goldstein make clear how fragile their atheism is…

David Klinghoffer, “Thanksgiving and the Frailty of Scientific Atheism” at Evolution News and Science Today

Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example. Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.

Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense. Here’s why:

Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong. But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.

You may also wish to read: A Darwinian biologist resists learning to live with panpsychism. Jerry Coyne makes two things quite clear: He scorns panpsychism and he doesn’t understand why some scientists accept it. The differences between panpsychism and naturalism are subtle but critical. As panpsychism’s popularity grows, insight will be better than rage and ridicule.

Comments
Ram @ 163, 164, and 168, Nicely stated. I have a few quibbles, but I appreciate the time and thought you put into these posts. -QQuerius
December 4, 2021
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Ram @160,
Well, if I were you, (and I’m not), I would be cautious about drawing conclusions about the nature of God that’s not explicitly revealed in the Hebrew Bible. After all, it came first.
Yes, I am. And in addition to the Hebrew text, I also study the pre-Masoretic Greek Septuagint, have needed to reference the Dead Sea Scrolls on occasion, and on a couple of occasions, the Syriac Peshitta. I'm not close to fluent in any of these languages, which slows me down significantly. For additional English-language translations, I reference the New American Standard Bible, the English Standard Version, the New International Version, and sometimes other translations to get a better idea of the scope of the various translators. The Easy-to-Read Version is surprisingly better than one would imagine and Rabbi Stern's Complete Jewish Bible is both charming and illuminating. For a large variety of translations in different languages, I'd recommend https://www.biblegateway.com/
Which reminds me of an old joke among Jews: why did God create Mormons? So that Christians would understand what Jews feel like.
Yes, I love it! And so Christians can potentially understand Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan (i.e. Mormon). -QQuerius
December 4, 2021
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Ram @156, Yes, in Isaiah 14, the arrogance and fall of the king of Babylon is being compared to that of Lucifer (hê·lêl in Hebrew), which is a title rather than a name to be forgotten. But as you noted, the contempt is clearly being leveled against the king of Babylon, who despite his aspirations is still no more than a human. Yes, we should always be sure to read scriptures in context both in the passage itself and in the culture. -QQuerius
December 4, 2021
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WJM: There is no way any being could talk to me, nothing that any being could do, that would convince it was God, because I have no rational way of reaching that conclusion.
Someone may very well convince me that he is a god. But indeed how can anyone possibly know that he is the one god - the only one? The bible tells us that there is only one god., but what if the number offered would have been 7? And even if we, for thomistic ontological reasons, are convinced that only one God can possibly be the First Cause, do we also have a reason to rule out the coming into existence of other powerful god-like beings?Origenes
December 4, 2021
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William J Murray @ 153,
The potentials didn’t choose a particular God with a particular personality.
Interestingly, potentials cannot exist outside of time and have no volition. And non-existence has exactly zero potential. Thus, when God created space-time (upon which potentials depend) and everything that exists within space-time, of necessity God did not create everything that could possibly exist . . . otherwise both creation and non-existence would cease. But frankly, I don’t think this perspective if helpful. There are potentially an infinite number of William J Murrays and a potential that William J Murray doesn’t exist. We’re left with everything and nothing. -QQuerius
December 4, 2021
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William J Murray @142, Just to respond to your post . .
Those are assertions. If I meet a talking, flying tiger and the tiger (or its followers) make assertions that it is God, there’s no rational reason for me to accept those assertions just because a talking, flying tiger is a miracle.
Yes, they were indeed assertions. They’re based on an understanding that God is not at all like a “flying tiger,” but created all that exists in our universe. As such, it seems that He could not have existed within the space-time of the as-yet-to-be created universe. From science, we can appreciate how incredibly complex, spectacular, and poorly understood this creation is. It’s miraculous that anything should come into existence out of non-existence, perhaps 13.7 billion years ago. Our own experience tells us that snow doesn’t shovel itself, a leaky sink doesn’t evolve into a better one, an iPhone doesn’t assemble itself, an automobile in your driveway doesn’t repair itself, and it’s ridiculous that the universe would create itself, producing functional complexity from random noise no matter how many billions of years have passed. The Creator of all this would have a purpose in mind for this creation, but it’s certainly not obvious what that purpose is. While many human religions, philosophers, hucksters, and thinly disguised business ventures claim to know this purpose, the truth somehow has to be revealed beyond just logic, persuasion, and nature. And this truth should be accessible to all, regardless of their intelligence, wealth, social class, skin color, language, gender, education, and so on. But to stand out from the crowd of pretenders, there needs to be something convincing for those willing to be convinced. The words that come to my mind include wisdom, miracles, fulfilled prophecies, radically changed lives, reliable writings, evidences, and so on. Naturally all pretenders will want to fake these as well. And where do all the fakes come from and the incredible evil that we recognize as different from good?
We have the testimony and information from several sources, including NDEs, that other such entities exist, so no, it’s not just speculation. Dismissing all evidence to the contrary as being the product of deception is circular and/or convenient reasoning.
That not all sources can be trusted is increasingly obvious from the news. How do you decide what you believe and what you can trust? Everything you see and hear can’t all be true, and there’s a deafening cacophony of messages in society with all kinds of claims clamoring incessantly for your time, your money, your attention, your votes, and your admiration. In the presence of so many people completely consumed with intense desire for infinite wealth, absolute power, monomaniacal fame, unlimited sexual activity, unceasing pleasure at the expense of everyone else, and the unleashing of unquenchable hatreds, jealousies, fury, lies and deception, violence for its own sake, and so on, it becomes a serious challenge to find anything good while drowning in all the evil. Again, the words that come to my mind include wisdom, miracles, fulfilled prophecies, radically changed lives, reliable writings, evidences, and so on. But I’d also add that the results in a person’s life is the ultimate reveal. -QQuerius
December 4, 2021
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Zweston/170
However, I do think that we are made in the image of God and therefore do reflect and espouse some of his abilities/characteristics.
Okay, but does "image" refer to the physical, psychological, moral or all of the above?Seversky
December 4, 2021
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Zweston: Regarding the “God of the Hebrew Bible” maybe you should hear Jordan Peterson out on the idea that the Old Testament God isn’t merciful? I've listened to his several of talks on the Hebrew God. If you aren’t aware, Peterson isn’t a believer. His beliefs seems to me have been evolving over time. Recently he has been labeling himself a mythicist. Biblical stories not literal but having "truths" that are useful to humans. From what I can tell he does lean toward the belief in some kind of higher power. His mythicism views overlap mine, but are not identical. I respect his views. I have a lot of respect for J.P. in general and believe he's doing very positive work in the world and would enjoy talking with him over a pint. --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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RAm @ 163... I follow what you are saying and don't have much of a response to it. However, I do think that we are made in the image of God and therefore do reflect and espouse some of his abilities/characteristics. Good counter.zweston
December 4, 2021
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Ram, Regarding the "God of the Hebrew Bible" maybe you should hear Jordan Peterson out on the idea that the Old Testament God isn't merciful? If you aren't aware, Peterson isn't a believer. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRfPlVnFUFMzweston
December 4, 2021
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Origenes: is creation “in” God? Can it be the case that we are all in God, that is, that we are all aspects of God? If you are a Christian, there is this:
he is not far from each one of us: for in him we live and move and exist; (Acts 17:27,28)
Is the entire universe, us, the devil, hell & Auschwitz all “in God”? That seems unacceptable. Why? Are you coming at it on the basis of an emotion? It certainly isn't a logical contradiction. The more fundamental question is: can God create something that is not actively "connected" to God? If not, then you are a monist. (That's me.) If so, then you are implying that "reality" is no longer "one", and that God somehow bifurcated making two independent realities, one of God and another detached reality that God is not longer "connected to." But if not actively connected to God, how can God interact with the created disconnected reality? Any action between the two realities implies some kind of "shared space" of a more fundemental reality, making reality still, in fact, One. Somehow, I don't think this is the right trail to hop down. Such a construct answers no questions, and is not a required entailment of a consistent philosophy of God. At the end of the day, there is only One Reality no matter how you slice it, and the creation cannot be independent from the ontology of the creator. I think of the the Root Reality, "God", as a hyperpersonal Tao, wherein lies all properties and potenia. That pretty much goes as far as one can go with human reason without uttering jibberish and falling victim to the kintergarten theology of anthropomorphism and its offshoots, such as the trinity doctrine. Your thoughts? --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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If God is the ground of all existence, he is one and indivisible, since the ground of all existence is necessarily one indivisible thing.. Given that, how do we explain God's creation as something existing outside of God? How do we get from one indivisible God, to something external to that God? God is indivisible, so it is logically impossible for him to seperate an aspect of himself and use that for 'creation'. Alternatively, is creation "in" God? Can it be the case that we are all in God, that is, that we are all aspects of God? Is the entire universe, us, the devil, hell & Auschwitz all "in God"? That seems unacceptable.Origenes
December 4, 2021
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WJM @153 Nicely put --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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BA77: how is one suppose to ground the property of ‘maximally great love’ in a unitarian God? I don't know what "maximally great love" is, Aquinas's philosophy notwithstanding. What I do accept is that all properties and potenia exist within the Root ontology. Affection and hate. Pleasure and pain. Joy and sorrow. If your philosophy is going to assert that multiple persons are required in God to be consistent with the idea that affection exists between humans, you're going to have to accept that hate exists among the persons of God too. You can't have one side of the spectrum without the other. (Hate/rage is a active emotion, not merely the absense of affection, it's opposite. Same with pleasure/pain, joy/dread.) Speaking from a human view, did God create the conscious experience of hate, dread, and pain? If you say no, then you agree with my view. If you say yes, then to be consistent you are warranted to accept that multiple persons are not required in God to create affection, joy and pleasure. If God knows how to create the "bad" emotions in humans without God transcendentally experiencing them before creation, then he surely is able to create the "good" emotions too. Multiple persons in God are not required to have a consistent view of this. (See my post above on "love.") --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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BA77: Well Okie Dokie then, I guess that pretty much wraps it up for me. Why? If the universe is not fundamental, then it is necessarily virtual in some sense. Do I think the universe is being generated on some super computer by "aliens"? No. That's the "simulation hypothesis" and I am not persuaded to accept it. Whatever is making this universe occur, is unimaginable. When I say the universe is virtual, I mean it has no reality in and of itself. Never has and never will. Objects within it are informational objects that are being algorithmically processed. By way of analogy, consider a lake. Consider the waves on a lake. The waves on the water are virtual objects. It is an assymetical relation and dependency. The water exists without the waves, but the waves actively depend on the water for their existence. The waves are never independent of the water. You could say the waves are the water in motion, water in a particular state. Some might employ the term "epiphenomenon." I have no problem calling whatever the "water" is, "God", the Root, the Ground of All Being. Etc. Moreover, I agree with WJM's views that whatever the Root is, it has all potenia within it's ontology and that differentiated entities are "navigating" around the "highways and byways" of that potenia. Hope that helps. --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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Zweston: without multiple persons existing as God before, you can’t really have love or humor God need not have human-like attributes. Only the ability to create human-like attributes. To take your statement to the absurd, you can't really have hate, anger, resentment without multiple persons in God. So do the "persons" within God ever argue? Are they romantic with each others? Etc. Take the word, "love." It's imprecise in English and most European languages, but Koine Greek, for example, fleshes out four ideas that typically get rendered as "love" in English. Which of these would you imagine exist among the "multiple persons" within a transcendent God? ... Agape An English term for this is "charity." The best way to render this in modern English is to "take care of" someone or something. It could be another human or an animal. "Take care of your neighbor as you take care of yourself." If your donkey falls in a ditch, you go rescue it. That's agape. No feelings or emotions are necessarily implied. Storge This term refers to a familial bond and loyalty. Closely related to philos. A mother's instinct for her baby, parents for their children, and siblings for each other fall into this category. It implies an opposition to any parties that may pose as a threat to the unity of the persons of the family. Philos Brotherly love. Closely related to storge. The feeling between friends and companions who share personal affection for each other typically over shared interests and the process of time. Eros Romance and sex. Which of these do you believe apply to the timeless transcendent persons of God? As for humor, humor is borne of irony and contradiction perceived by human brains. How would timeless transcendent persons have the kind of dynamic where irony and contradiction could arise? Again, I say: God need not have human-like attributes. Only the ability to create human-like attributes. --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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Ram, glad to hear that you have an open mind on the Shroud.bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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BA77, I definitely acknowledge that the Shroud is a fascinating and impressive object. I am not yet convinced, but maybe it is exactly what some claim it is. I have nothing against that proposition whatsoever and would happily accept a verdict of "geniune." --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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Querius: I’m very cautious in drawing conclusions about the nature of God that’s not explicitly revealed in the Bible. Well, if I were you, (and I'm not), I would be cautious about drawing conclusions about the nature of God that's not explicitly revealed in the Hebrew Bible. After all, it came first. Which reminds me of an old joke among Jews: why did God create Mormons? So that Christians would understand what Jews feel like. :Dram
December 4, 2021
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BA77 said:
WJM, to be polite, I don’t find your argument for ‘potential’ existing apart from God to be the least bit persuasive.
Fortunately, I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else. So, how does anything potential become actual, if the ground of existence, as all potential, cannot logically make such a decision - or any decision at all? The answer to this lies in MRT, where potentials are experienced in mind as what we call realities. Potential = actual in MRT. The ground doesn't make decisions. All possible beings as individual personalities exist having all possible experiences available in potential. The Christian God is real, the Christian experience is real, just as all other God and non-theistic experiential realities that exist in potential are real.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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Ram, "I agree that something “outside the universe” exists. In fact, I am very much persuaded by the “virtual reality” view of the universe we find ourselves in." :) Well Okie Dokie then, I guess that pretty much wraps it up for me. Have a good day.bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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WJM, to be polite, I don't find your argument for 'potential' existing apart from God to be the least bit persuasive. And if it is all the same with you, I have much better things to do today than to debate you for hours on the many fallacies that keep popping up in your, ahem, 'theory'bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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Querius: Lucifer who wanted to be like God Lucifer, aka The Son of the Dawn, aka Heylel, aka Venus. The Hebrew name Heylel is well known by scholars to be a Ugaritic god whom Isaiah was using as a metaphorical taunt against the very human king of Babylon as it says right there in the text: "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon " And notice the very humans properties: "All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; "but you are cast out, away from your sepulchre, like a loathed untimely birth" Satan needed a sepulchre? "you will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land" Satan denied a proper burial? "May the descendants of evildoers nevermore be named!" His descendants are cursed. "I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north;" That's a reference to Mount Sapon, the home of the gods in Canannite religion. Etc. Etc. Do you guys ever read things in context? :D --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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Ba77 said;
WJM, the full context does not extract you from your contradiction in logic.
That's because I wasn't in a contradiction of logic in the first place :) There is a difference between a causeless-cause necessary being, and the beings that necessarily exist contingent upon that premise. Which I clearly stated to start with.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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Ram, not to go into detail in defending “The Ontological Argument for the Triune God”, but exactly how is one suppose to ground the property of 'maximally great love' in a unitarian God? As I pointed out, and as seems obvious, without this 'trinitarian' distinction for God, of God 'necessarily' existing in more than one person, then we are stuck with the logical contradiction of maximally great love being grounded in ones own self which is the antithesis of maximally great love. i.e. selfishness as opposed to selflessness.
Abdu Murray AMP 2016 (16: 00 minute mark – former Muslim admitting that God must exist in more than one person because of the characteristic of maximally great love, i.e. the ontological argument for the Trinity) https://youtu.be/GGLM3CC5-EY?list=PLUwTeBAi_JFFxNDq-sp0_Soxlxnlv9YRG&t=948
bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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If one is going to claim that God selected a particular set of potentials from all possible potentials to actualize, then we know that "all possible potentials" exist as such and informed God's decision. It would also inform every decision God made going forward. We know those potentials still exist as potentials. It's nonsensical to say that the potentials made the decision on which God personality to actualize. The Christian God as a personality is obviously just one God out of many other potential Gods. The potentials didn't choose a particular God with a particular personality. This is why the ground for all possible things - otherwise known as the ground of existence - cannot be the same thing as a particular God with a particular personality. The Christian God and the ground of existence are necessarily two different things.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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BA77: that universe is not blowing itself apart and therefore, from a common sense point of view, something, or Someone, must be holding the universe together. General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are superb theories (to quote Sir Roger Penrose), which have extremely good precision and predictive power. But they are still theories subject to change, so it doesn't suprise me that the universe is still holding together despite the incompatibilies of two human-made theories. :D For the Christian this theoretical finding from our very best theories in science, (i.e. that something, or Someone, very powerful must be ‘outside the universe’ that is holding this universe together), I agree that something "outside the universe" exists. In fact, I am very much persuaded by the "virtual reality" view of the universe we find ourselves in. "Christianity predicted that Christ is before all things, and in him all things hold together" Hinduism says that about Vishnu/Krishna too. And long before. Maybe Paul stole the idea from the Hindus. Or from Philo who got it from the Greeks (demiurge) and/or from the Hindus through Philo. [Shrug] Not sure what your point is. That something is holding the universe together? Agreed. A lot of people have had a lot of ideas about that over that last 2500 years. How are you going to prove that is Jesus Christ? At an rate, I don't know who or what is "holding the universe together" except that it is apparently not me. :) --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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WJM, the full context does not extract you from your contradiction in logic.bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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BA77: In this following video, entitled “The Ontological Argument for the Triune God” I imagine that video may be impressive with people who are already impressed with Aquinas's construction of God. (I am not.) Are you personally willing to defend this video, in this thread? --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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BA77 said:
“every possible being, whether you call any of them “God” or not, necessarily exist.”
Why snip something out of context? Here's the full sentence:
The inescapable consequence of there being a ground of existence as all potential is that every possible being, whether you call any of them “God” or not, necessarily exist.
They exist necessarily contingent upon there being a ground of existence as all potential. It's tne necessary logical consequence of that necessary being. There's a difference between a necessary being as ground for existence, and the necessary consequence of beings that ground of existence implies.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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