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Insane or Simply Wrong?

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David W. Gibson asks some interesting questions in a comment to johnnyb’s last post.  First, he writes concerning Darwinism:  “How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after decades of detailed study, could STILL fall victim to the ‘transparently ludicrous’?”

Let me answer this question by referring to a couple of similar examples from hisotry.

In the second century Ptolemy devised his system of cosmology.  In this system each planet moves along a “deferent” and an “epicycle.”  The planet’s movement along these two paths cause it to move closer to and further away from the earth.  For the system to work, the planets sometimes had to slow down, stop, and even move backwards.

Tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world ascribed to Ptolemy’s cosmology from the publication of Almagest around 150 until well after the publication of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543.

But this system of deferents and epicycles is “transparently ludicrous” you say.  And so it is in retrospect.  Nevertheless it reigned nearly unchallenged for well over 1,000 years.

Here’s another example.  Humorism.  “This theory holds that the human body was filled with four basic substances, called humors, which are in balance when a person is healthy, and all diseases and disabilities result from an excess or deficit of one of these four humors. These deficits could be caused by vapors that were inhaled or absorbed by the body. The four humors were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood.”  Wikipedia.

Humorism was the prevailing medical orthodoxy from the time of Galen (circa 150 AD).  It was not definitively displaced until 1858 when Rudolf Virchow published his work on cellular pathology.

Your phrase “transparently ludicrous” comes readily to mind when we think about humorism now.  Yet it was the prevailing orthodoxy among tens of thousands of brilliant medical practitioners for nearly 2,000 years.

Now suppose one of Copernicus’ critics (and he had many; his theory was not accepted immediately) had said, “Hey Copernicus, how could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after 1,393 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to  a theory of cosmology that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

Or suppose one of Virchow’s critics had said, “Hey wait a minute!  How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after nearly 2,000 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to a theory of medicine that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

I will put it to you David.  How should Copernicus or Virchow have answered those questions?

Finally you write:  “Centuries of scientific progress can only be explained by mass insanity. Does that work for you?”

First, I don’t know where you get “centuries.”  Origin was published in 1859.  That’s 153 years ago by my count.  Darwin has over 1,000 years to go before he reaches the same status as Ptolemy or Galen based on mere “age of the theory.”

Second, “mass insanity” is a nice strawman.  No one has suggested that someone who believes in Darwinism is insane.  They are simply wrong.

Were all cosmologists from Ptolemy to Copernicus insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

Were all doctors from Galen to Virchow insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

The essence of your argument for Darwinism is:  “All the smart people believe it; it must be true.”  I hope you understand now that that argument is not as airtight as you seem to think it is.

Comments
J: 1,000 BITS is the square of 500 bits, in terms of space of possibilities specified. KFkairosfocus
June 2, 2012
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GEM,
You will also see why I conclude that different thresholds obtain for our solar system and the observed cosmos. You will notice that 500 bits is used for the solar system, and its square for the observed cosmos as a whole.
I see where you use 500 or 1000 bits. Of course 1000 is not the square of 500 but I see what you're getting at. I appreciate the attempt to simplify things but I think I shall continue to read Dr Dembski's original and your version. Sometimes it's good to have a couple of perspectives.Jerad
June 2, 2012
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J: First, thanks, the stimulation you provided helps me clean up and clarify how to be clearer. Second, the derivation of the Dembski threshold is difficult to follow. That is why an exercise in simplification and more explicit tying down to the atomic state capacity to do things for our solar system and/or the observed cosmos was undertaken in the first place. And in so doing, it seemed reasonable to me and to those who were also involved in the exchanges of a year ago, to identify such a simpler threshold. You will also see why I conclude that different thresholds obtain for our solar system and the observed cosmos. You will notice that 500 bits is used for the solar system, and its square for the observed cosmos as a whole. so, the point of the exercise is to not have to go through the Dembski analysis. Hence the setting of a threshold where 398 + K2 bits tends to 500 at upper limit. The number of Planck time quantum state events for our solar system's 10^57 atoms is at limit 10^117. The number of possible chemical-level events for these atoms is thus about 10^87, given reaction speeds. The rest follows, including the updated needle in the haystack search challenge. I hope this helps clarify. KFkairosfocus
June 2, 2012
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Ah, Dr Dembski discusses the derivative of phi . . . I shall persist!Jerad
June 1, 2012
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GEM, I followed the link to the angelfire.com document which explains what phi*S(T) is but I found it a bit confusing. I followed the link therein to the online version of Dr Dembski's paper.
?S(T) = the number of patterns for which S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of T. In other words, ?S(T) is the cardinality of {U ? patterns(?) | ??S(U) ? ??S(T)} where patterns(?) is the collection of all patterns that identify events in ?.
The copy and pasting abandons some of the formatting unfortunately. I don't find it clear what the derivative of phi would be since there is not a functional definition of phi . . . can't quite get my head around what the rate of increase or slope of phi would be . . . I'll have a think about it.Jerad
June 1, 2012
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NOTE: ouch, had to do some cleaning up: solar system ~ 10^57 atoms, 10^117 PTQS's in 10^17 s. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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J: Please follow the link, and BTW, looks like my memory may be wrong on nos of atoms, 10^42 or so in sol sys. phi_S(T) is defined by Dembski in his 2005 paper, I am just reducing to a simpler easier to use form based on our solar system's resources. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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GEM, As I said, I did figure out that D2 is the same as phi*S(T) but it is confusing to make that switch without explaining why. And I checked . . . I don't think S(T) is defined anywhere on the page. And I'm still not clear what "on objective analysis" means but it's probably just me.Jerad
June 1, 2012
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F/N: The number of Planck-time events for the 10^57 atoms of our solar system to date is about 10^102. The number of configs for 500 bits [3*10^150] gives a threshold that is 10^48 beyond that. All of that is discussed in the immediate context. In short the threshold metric that is created works off quantum of specific info beyond a threshold set by available number of possible tosses of the dice so to speak. If you are sampling at most 10^102 tosses in a space that is 10^48 beyond that you have no right to expect to hit on definable special zones that are isolated by chance: one straw-sizes sample from a hay bale 3 1/2 light days across. For the very same reason why relatively small but sufficient samples of a population give us a credibly good glimpse of its general properties. Or, to go to Fisher's testing, a random sample within a given scope of trials, will come reliably enough from the bulk not the far skirts, so if you are seeing far skirt results the best explanation is intelligently directed or biased samples.kairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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PPS: Notice, the three terms are preserved in order at the step in question, relative to Dembski's expression.kairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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Jerad, it should be obvious that I have blocked the expression into three on the product rule of logs. And, if you look on the reduction, you will see:
xix: Later on (2005), Dembski provided a slightly more complex formula, that we can quote and simplify: [X] = – log2[10^120 ·p S(T)·P(T|H)]. X is "chi" and p is "phi" [I here substitute Latin for Greek letters so we don't see question marks] xx: To simplify and build a more "practical" mathematical model, we note that information theory researchers Shannon and Hartley showed us how to measure information by changing probability into a log measure that allows pieces of information to add up naturally: Ip = - log p, in bits if the base is 2. (That is where the now familiar unit, the bit, comes from.) xxi: So, since 10^120 ~ 2^398, we may do some algebra as log(p*q*r) = log(p) + log(q ) + log(r) and log(1/p) = – log (p): Chi = – log2(2^398 * D2 * p), in bits Chi = Ip – (398 + K2), where log2 (D2 ) = K2 So, since 398 + K2 tends to at most 500 bits on the gamut of our solar system [[our practical universe, for chemical interactions! (if you want , 1,000 bits would be a limit for the observable cosmos)] and as we can define a dummy variable for specificity, S, where S = 1 or 0 according as the observed configuration, E, is on objective analysis specific to a narrow and independently describable zone of interest, T: Chi = Ip*S – 500, in bits beyond a "complex enough" threshold (If S = 0, Chi = - 500, and, if Ip is less than 500 bits, Chi will be negative even if S is positive. E.g.: A string of 501 coins tossed at random will have S = 0, but if the coins are arranged to spell out a message in English using the ASCII code [[notice independent specification of a narrow zone of possible configurations, T], Chi will -- unsurprisingly -- be positive.) . . . . Using Durston’s Fits values -- functionally specific bits -- from his Table 1, to quantify I, so also accepting functionality on specific sequences as showing specificity giving S = 1, we may apply the simplified Chi_500 metric of bits beyond the threshold: RecA: 242 AA, 832 fits, Chi: 332 bits beyond SecY: 342 AA, 688 fits, Chi: 188 bits beyond Corona S2: 445 AA, 1285 fits, Chi: 785 bits beyond
In short, I explicitly say I am doing some algebra, and I am in fact breaking up the three-part log expression into three parts that can be "added" per the law for log of products. I don't know if some people will have a problem following the steps but they are fairly "simple" for one who has some High School Algebra [or better College algebra], enough to have done logs. What I did was I put in a substitution for pS(T), and another for 10^120, using the relationship between information metrics and logs. (Or, have things changed that much since I did 3rd and 4th form algebra?) KF PS: There is a given example that clarifies: the difference between 500 coins in a row tossed at random, and the coins being arranged to spell out the ASCII code for a message in English. If there is significant disarrangement, the message will be garbled and soon, unintelligible; a typical island of function outcome. But, any and every arrangement of coins will be acceptable as a coin toss outcome, though the absolute bulk of the highly peaked distribution will be H & T in about a 50:50 distribution, with no particular order, much less functional organisation. Sampling theory will tell us to expect that. The odds against getting an ASCII-coded intelligible message in English on tossing fair coins at random are so high that such is effectively unobservable on the gamut of our solar system, as is explained in detail, down to the illustration of a hay bale 3 1/2 light days across and picking a one straw sized sample.kairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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GEM, Well, you never define what D2 is so it's confusing and it's hard to follow how 398 + K2 tends to 500 bits. (In fact . . . . IF D2 is just phi times S(T) do you define S(T) anywhere . . . ) Also you say:
. . . we can define a dummy variable for specificity, S, where S = 1 or 0 according as the observed configuration, E, is on objective analysis specific to a narrow and independently describable zone of interest, T:
and I don't quite get what "is on objective analysis specific to a narrow . . ." means but I'll keep thinking about it.Jerad
June 1, 2012
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J: That's a step in the log reduction and simplification to obtain a simple metric for use, from Dembski's CSI metric orf 2005. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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Jerad, Re the long Jubilee weekend, haven't decided yet. I hope we'll have warmer weather down in Suffolk.Eugene S
June 1, 2012
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GEM, Yes, I was starting to look at those. And I think I'll have some mathematical questions later. About the Chi metric. But I'll try and absorb it all first. It did look like your phi*S turned into a D2 at one point but I made the transition.Jerad
June 1, 2012
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J: There are diagrams and cases in point, with relevant concrete, numerical cases. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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Sorry, I screwed up the blockquote in my reply. I hope you can figure out who said what.Jerad
June 1, 2012
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GEM,
Secondary case, of functionally specific, multi-part organisation that is complex. This is translated into a data measure by using a nodes and arcs perspective, and specifications of components at nodes. 3-d structures, exploded views of functional entities, process networks [ckt diagrams] etc. I'm gonna have to spend some time on your website to unravel all that! My MS in mathematics isn't quite up to that. I await the results of ID research!! Eugene, I'm near York so . . . compared to America we're very close! :-) I'll be at Sutton Hoo in November. I hear you. And I think you are articulating a big difference between us: I don't mind a world with no purpose. In fact, it makes more sense to me. So, in cases that are not clearly designed or clearly natural we are going to tend to fall on opposite sides of the fence. We both acknowledge the possibility of the other point of view but when in doubt . . . Doing anything fun for the Jubilee? Big street party in my village on Sunday. I'll pay the 5-quid for someone else to do all the work!! Suppose to be 13 degrees on Sunday but no rain. Everything crossed!!
Jerad
June 1, 2012
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Jerad, Are you British? I am based in Suffolk, maybe we are neighbours :) Without trying to impose my views, I really don't think that evidence of grand design is "well hidden". In fact, if you read what scientists of the past said, you will find that some greatest minds likened the universe to a book that one just had to be able to read. Evidence is really everywhere. The fact that mathematics can have an idea of how it all works, suggests to me that at least part of our reality is amenable to formalisation and consequently pointing to an intelligent cause, since where else can formalism come from? BTW, the strong anthropic principle cannot be easily dismissed because a dismissal does not explain why the values are the ones we observe and why the tolerances are so narrow (some parameters need only of order 10^-40 a relative delta for matter to cease to exist in the forms we know). I agree that the ID vs non-ID issue sometimes gets very close to the demarcation line but anyway I prefer to live in a world that has a purpose :) Thanks for your thoughts. Take care.Eugene S
June 1, 2012
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J; Brief notes -- having paused to deal with eXe as a learning resource tool, on the way to today's headache. (I hope we don't need an International Law expert for that . . . ) Re:
It takes a long time to learn to look for the clear signs of design in some contexts. Same with forensics; lots of clearly design situations, some obviously natural patterns and some . . . eh . . . maybe.
Yes, that does happen, that is why the focus is on some rather clear cases, and using a very conservative criterion. Digital code, especially, in algorithmic contexts and supported by execution machinery. Secondary case, of functionally specific, multi-part organisation that is complex. This is translated into a data measure by using a nodes and arcs perspective, and specifications of components at nodes. 3-d structures, exploded views of functional entities, process networks [ckt diagrams] etc. All of these are very familiar from the world we live in, and the routinely observed sources are not in doubt. The difference is we are looking at miniaturised, molecular technologies that are more advanced than we are. Give us 100 years or so to catch up. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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GEM, I appreciate the links. From a cursory examination they look like good presentations of your arguments. I recognise some of the material you have posted on this forum. Obviously you put a great deal of thought and time into the IOSE site. I've never doubted your conviction, I admire it in fact.Jerad
June 1, 2012
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KF, Thanks! I'll have a look!Jerad
June 1, 2012
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PS: This vid may be a good 10-minute investment to get an overview.kairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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KF,
First, let me express appreciation on tone.
Let me know if I step over the line of acceptability.
And, please note the unacceptable rhetorical pattern, again. You have been listening to the talking points of a side that is committed to a scorched earth defence of its a priori materialism. Which is inescapably self refuting and amoral to begin with.
You don't have to take me seriously!! Lots of people don't. I'm sorry you find my approach 'unacceptable' and 'amoral'. As far as possible I try to treat people with respect and dignity and not to ridicule or demean.
(I suggest you work through the IOSE survey, starting here on, if you want a 101 on details, across the various topics.)
I will have a look, thanks!! I certainly agree that inference to design is a very important part of many fields of inquiry. I've been on many archaeological sites. I've found 'worked' objects (like an abraider stone) and had many 'maybe' hand axes tossed as being not clear or just natural fracturing. It takes a long time to learn to look for the clear signs of design in some contexts. Same with forensics; lots of clearly design situations, some obviously natural patterns and some . . . eh . . . maybe.
So, the rejection of that causal explanation and the selection instead of an evidently inadequate suggested mechanism, the lucky noise hypothesis, points to a worldview preference, not cogent inductive reasoning.
Perhaps it does. I'll live with it. No reflection on you.
Nor does the “I find” particularly impress me.
As I said, I'm not trying to convince anyone of my viewpoint. I am trying to politely explain my view. And if it's foolish or illogical . . . well, that's my choice.
Right now I have to attend to a declaration to the UN decolonisation commission; of all things.
Well, you're a lot less boring than me!! Good luck!!Jerad
June 1, 2012
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J: First, let me express appreciation on tone. That said, I must first point out that cosmological design is in fact the senior branch of design theory; having had its beginnings in the implications of Hubble's work in the 1920's, and in Lemaitre's cosmological analysis on GTR. It received a boost from 1953 on, as more and more points of fine tuning have emerged. I need not delve on deeper roots via Newton to Plato et al. More specifically, what is astonishingly fine tuned is a cosmos in which the first four most abundant elements are: H, He, C, O, with N in contention. Such a cosmos is one in which aqueous medium, C-chemistry, cell-based life is possible. Stuff on large spaces mostly empty [cf Olbers paradox on why], gamma ray bursts etc etc are distractive red herrings, led away to a strawman caricature of the actual case, slapped about the face and dismissed. The issue is to get to a cosmos that forms spiral galaxies with habitable zones and stars of the right class and lifetime, with the right elements. That sounds simple, until you begin to see what is involved. And, please note the unacceptable rhetorical pattern, again. You have been listening to the talking points of a side that is committed to a scorched earth defence of its a priori materialism. Which is inescapably self refuting and amoral to begin with. (I suggest you work through the IOSE survey, starting here on, if you want a 101 on details, across the various topics.) The design inference, more broadly, crops up -- often unrecognised -- in many significant fields, including forensics, engineering, pharmacology, and of course archaeology. Inferring best explanatory cause on empirically reliable sign is a commonplace, glorified common sense in fact. In the case of FSCO/I, that reliably tested cause is design. So, the rejection of that causal explanation and the selection instead of an evidently inadequate suggested mechanism, the lucky noise hypothesis, points to a worldview preference, not cogent inductive reasoning. (In short, the claim that on a hillside in Wales near the English border, a rockfall happened to come out in the form: "welcome to Wales," and so was left in place instead of being cleaned up, is incredible.) Nor does the "I find" particularly impress me. In effect, this is as it stands, an appeal to personal credulity, or to authority. No claim by an authority is any better than its facts, reasoning and assumptions. And that is precisely where Darwinism fails as an account of the origin of life forms from microbes to man. There is limited support for micro-evo, adaptation of populations within a body plan. Even that is under pressure from issues over breeding out general features towards specific varieties, and the re-emergence of -- of all unexpected things -- Lamarckian-type aspects, now that epigenetics is speaking out on evidence. (E look like you better make your babies when youse be young, healthy and clean livin, folks! So much for unis that leave you US$100k+ in debt and "unable" to marry . . . ) Unbelievable is a good podcast, but I confess to having fingers in too many pies to listen regularly, usually when UD News points out a significant episode. Right now I have to attend to a declaration to the UN decolonisation commission; of all things. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2012
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KF, I am trying to be civil. :-) And I'm trying not to 'strawmanise' anyone. That's why I'm participating in this forum, to find out what y'all think. And I feel like I have gained much, appreciated insight. I do not mean my disagreement/choice to be a judgement against anyone else. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I'm just saying that, for me, it's easier to accept the modern evolutionary synthesis than the ID inference. And I do so because I, personally, find the evidence supports 'darwinism' more than it supports design. If I'm being stupid or I'm ignoring some evidence well . . . that's no criticism of you. That would be a fault of mine. Interestingly enough, while walking my dog this morning I was listening to a debate on the existence of God sponsored by the Unbelieveable? podcast put out by Premier (Christian) radio in the UK. I highly recommend this podcast by the way, you can find it via iTunes. Have a look at some of the past episodes. Stephen Meyer has made at least one appearance along with lots and lots of thoughtful Christian apologists. It's all very civil and generaily illuminating and, sometimes, fascinating. ANYWAY, it got me thinking about the fine tuning of the cosmos issue, a topic I have avoided here 'cause I don't think it is necessarily part of ID. But . . . We don't know that the universe IS tune-able. It may be that the constants are what they have to be. We only have one universe to consider. We can't say how probable or improbable things are. We haven't got any data really. IF the universe is fine-tuned then it's generally a pretty hostile and empty place. As far as we know so far we are the only example of life amongst billions and billions of stars and galaxies. Even the next closest solar system is probably too far to visit in a practical sense. All that just for this one, minor planetary system in an arm of one, unspecial galaxy? Aside from the fact that there are lots of things that can wipe us out in an instant: Gamma ray bursts, black holes and (one of the current bug-bears) killer asteroids just to name a few. Honestly, if the right chunk of rock comes along . . . we're toast. And IF the universe is fine-tuned and created just for us then I don't understand why, in a few billion years, our sun is going to go nova and kill ALL forms of life on earth. And that'll be that. End of known life. What was/is the point? Given all that I find it easier to think that the universe is what it is and we're very lucky to be here at all. I don't rule out design and a designer. Obviously it is possible. I just don't see any good supporting evidence or intent or caring. Would I change my mind given better evidence? You bet. What would I accept as evidence? Something that clearly violates one of the rock-solid laws of physics or chemistry. An unambiguous message from the designer. A dog giving birth to a cat. There are lots of ways a transcendental being could establish its existence and intent. Some of you think that evidence already exists. I don't. Sometimes even reasonable people disagree. At least it's less boring when that happens. :-)Jerad
May 31, 2012
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J: Do, I trust I am not coming across as over harsh. I do prefer your tone to that which I have too often seen, and appreciate that this is a significant thing. That noted, I am concerned that there is a reasoning issue to be addressed, and I must confess it is annoying to be forever strawmannised. That also noted, I do appreciate that you are saying that you are making a choice, on parsimony. My concern here is that parsimony is over-sold as a criterion of choice. I think it was Einstein who pointed out that everything should be as simple as possible but not simpler than that. Factual adequacy and coherence come before simplicity of explanation, and there is a balance point of elegant simplicity between ad hoc patchworks on one extreme and simplisticness on the other. That was Einstein's target. KF PS: I have just given the three main themes of comparative difficulties analysis. You may find the primer I used in a course, here -- I have worked on since, too -- a bit helpful.kairosfocus
May 31, 2012
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J:
Re: I don’t think I have to show that life is not possibly the product of design. It is possibly the product of design. Many things are possible. But as there is no current, verifiable evidence of a designer capable of the designs postulated, now or way back when, then I prefer to fall back upon natural forces clearly now in effect. I find that natural processes defined by the laws of physics and chemistry to be more parsimonious than an undefined, unilluminated and unseen designer.
Tell me, why do you have to set up and knock over a strawman, when the accurate case is right there in front of you or just a click or two away? Do you not see that if you cannot address that which is relatively simple and right in front of you, then that renders the rest of your case moot? I will not repeat myself. I will note that you have had to acknowledge that a designer is not a priori impossible. That means that we have to take signs that in our reliable experience point to design as cause, seriously; even where we did not and cannot observe the actual course of the past directly. Indeed, that is the state of ALL origins science models of the remote past. The fatal defect to your assertions is that you are brushing aside the evidence that shows why blind forces of chance and necessity are not credible as adequate causes for functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information. Which, here, includes: codes, thus symbols and language, algorithms, or step by step purposeful sequences of symbolised actions, and executing machinery organised to give effect to same, with the protein manufacturing process as exhibit no 1. As to the assertions about no evidence of a designer with the relevant capacity, this just plain refuses to attend to the evidence in front of you. The very PC you are using shows that we have designers capable of codes, algorithms and executing machinery. What we have not yet achieved -- though the analysis for how to do it is 60+ years old, is a von Neumann self replicator, and we have not yet managed to make executing machinery at nanotech level. However, the work of Venter et al shows that such is eminently feasible, and beyond reasonable doubt will be achieved across this century. In short the obvious, best conclusion, is that we are looking at a recognisable, but more advanced technology than we have attained, though we are well on the way. BUT THE MATTER IS ACTUALLY DEEPER THAN THAT. We have seen the evidence of how life systems work, and how they are composed. We can do the analysis as to why such a complex functionally organised entity on the gamut of our observed cosmos, is not observable on forces of chance and necessity; much less per empirical demonstration of such. The problem, then, is not the analysis or the evidence; all of which point strongly to how inferring design on known reliable signs thereof, is reasonable, empirically warranted and analytically credible. The problem, is, you do plainly not like the implications and what that may open the door to. So, for patently worldview level reasons, you prefer a mechanism that is not empirically warranted to one that is. You prefer a suggested mechanism that is clearly infeasible, to one that is clearly feasible. The problem, therefore, is not science, empirical analysis, inductive logic or knowledge as warranted, credibly true belief. No, it is a worldview preference. So, let the record show -- pardon my directness, but too much is at stake to be anything less than explicit -- that the evidence is on one side, and the conclusion you draw, on worldviews preferences, is on the other. We have clear signs of design in cell based life, but for worldview reasons that is unacceptable to a dominant school of thought. So, sadly, the record above speaks for itself. Let us trust that we can begin afresh in that sobering light. G'day KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2012
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Eric, Yeah, I think we're good to go. And if I use the term 'natural selection' you'll know what I'm implying.Jerad
May 30, 2012
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Jerad:
It is what we agreed: a summation of environmental pressures/conditions which some lifeforms are better adapted to because of their random variation from the norm. Natural selection is not random because the environment is not random. It does change, especially the weather and climate. And sometimes an asteroid screws everything up! There are floods and famines and ice ages.
That is a decent description of the environment. Which just highlights the fact that the environment adds another level of random factors on top of the random variations. :)Eric Anderson
May 30, 2012
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