Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Insane or Simply Wrong?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

David W. Gibson asks some interesting questions in a comment to johnnyb’s last post.  First, he writes concerning Darwinism:  “How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after decades of detailed study, could STILL fall victim to the ‘transparently ludicrous’?”

Let me answer this question by referring to a couple of similar examples from hisotry.

In the second century Ptolemy devised his system of cosmology.  In this system each planet moves along a “deferent” and an “epicycle.”  The planet’s movement along these two paths cause it to move closer to and further away from the earth.  For the system to work, the planets sometimes had to slow down, stop, and even move backwards.

Tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world ascribed to Ptolemy’s cosmology from the publication of Almagest around 150 until well after the publication of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543.

But this system of deferents and epicycles is “transparently ludicrous” you say.  And so it is in retrospect.  Nevertheless it reigned nearly unchallenged for well over 1,000 years.

Here’s another example.  Humorism.  “This theory holds that the human body was filled with four basic substances, called humors, which are in balance when a person is healthy, and all diseases and disabilities result from an excess or deficit of one of these four humors. These deficits could be caused by vapors that were inhaled or absorbed by the body. The four humors were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood.”  Wikipedia.

Humorism was the prevailing medical orthodoxy from the time of Galen (circa 150 AD).  It was not definitively displaced until 1858 when Rudolf Virchow published his work on cellular pathology.

Your phrase “transparently ludicrous” comes readily to mind when we think about humorism now.  Yet it was the prevailing orthodoxy among tens of thousands of brilliant medical practitioners for nearly 2,000 years.

Now suppose one of Copernicus’ critics (and he had many; his theory was not accepted immediately) had said, “Hey Copernicus, how could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after 1,393 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to  a theory of cosmology that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

Or suppose one of Virchow’s critics had said, “Hey wait a minute!  How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after nearly 2,000 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to a theory of medicine that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

I will put it to you David.  How should Copernicus or Virchow have answered those questions?

Finally you write:  “Centuries of scientific progress can only be explained by mass insanity. Does that work for you?”

First, I don’t know where you get “centuries.”  Origin was published in 1859.  That’s 153 years ago by my count.  Darwin has over 1,000 years to go before he reaches the same status as Ptolemy or Galen based on mere “age of the theory.”

Second, “mass insanity” is a nice strawman.  No one has suggested that someone who believes in Darwinism is insane.  They are simply wrong.

Were all cosmologists from Ptolemy to Copernicus insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

Were all doctors from Galen to Virchow insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

The essence of your argument for Darwinism is:  “All the smart people believe it; it must be true.”  I hope you understand now that that argument is not as airtight as you seem to think it is.

Comments
Eric, Yes, it's hard for me (at least) to be happy with that narrow focus. I want to ask follow on questions and drill down deeper. I'm terribly curious to find out what ID proponents are purposing lies underneath the design. I find that a very natural inclination but I see your point. Anyway, that's why I ask lots of questions. Even when I was a kid I liked taking things apart and seeing how they worked. I guess it's the same with ID: I wanna know the mechanism!! Regarding your two items . . . how do you think ID proponents are doing/have done to establish their veracity? Again, I find it very productive having these discussions. Thanks!!Jerad
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
Jerad: Thanks for your comments. ID is a very narrow concept. It is not a theory of everything. It is not intended to be a theory of everything or a grand unifying concept. ID asks a very simple question: (i) Is it possible to detect that some things are designed by examining their characteristics? And as applied to life: (ii) Are there physical systems in nature that exhibit these characteristics of design? That's it. Nothing more. Nothing philosophical. No questions about who the designer is, motives, when, why, or even how. It is an extremely narrow and (to any reasonable individual) objective question. In this sense, it is true that ID is a broad tent that encompasses many possibilities and many viewpoints. But ID will never try to "unify" all the attendant possibilities into a single unified theory that attempts to address the second order questions. ID's simplicity and straight-forward inquiry is its strength. ID proponents' insistence on keeping the focus on the basic questions is not evasive, it is careful and honest. Some people may want ID to go beyond its basic inquiry and delve into more speculative areas. But the fact that ID doesn't address those areas is not a failing of ID. It is only a failing of such individuals' expectations and wishes.Eric Anderson
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
Joe, Are you saying that the 'designer' might be directing the mutations? How can you test that? But ID argues against a purely mechanical/natural/undirected process and the modern evolutionary consensus supports that process so . . . they are opposed in the causal agent.Jerad
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
09:11 AM
9
09
11
AM
PDT
Jerad, It is all scientific research. All IDists want is for scientists to be allowed to come to a design inference if the data/ evidence warrant it. That said Lenski doesn't know if the mutations are random or not as he doesn't know how to make that determination. The same goes for the nylon digesting bacteria. And again ID is not anti-evolution so "evolutionary research" would be an equivocation.Joe
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
08:58 AM
8
08
58
AM
PDT
Joe, Well, where would you suggest I read up on the ID research then? I think Lenski's experiment is looking at the accumulation of random mutations. And, certainly, the continuing observations of biologists all over the world. Like the bacteria that evolved to digest one of the by-products of manufacturing nylon. Stuff like that is being noted and recorded. You may not agree that there is any evolutionary research but there are good blogs which discuss the some of the more noteworthy publications. That's the kind of thing I was hoping to find in the ID research community.Jerad
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
08:49 AM
8
08
49
AM
PDT
The research has been done and the point proved as much as it can be in the absence of meeting the designer(s). And seeing that no one is researching into what accumulations of genetic accidents can do there isn't anything to compare. How does anyone keep up with materialism or evolutionism when there isn't any research?Joe
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
Joe, I hope to see some of the answers one of these days!! As I said before, I encourage ID supporters to support and promote research to bolster their hypothesis. Do the research, prove the point!! In your opinion, who do you think is doing the best research at the moment? AND how do you keep up with ID research? I read UD, obviously, and Evolution News and Vies and I listen to the podcast ID the Future. Anything else I should be keeping up with?Jerad
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
08:00 AM
8
08
00
AM
PDT
Jerad, I am not attacking any model. I am attacking people's nonsensical imagination. And give ID 150 years and all the universities and ID will have the answers that your position cannot provide. BTW long-time atheist and anti-IDist Antony Flew switched to ID because of the evidence....Joe
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
07:51 AM
7
07
51
AM
PDT
Collin, it just leaves so many questions unanswered if it's narrow!! And it doesn't address WHY the designer made the choices they did. Can't help it, I like to have things explained. Or at least an attempt being made. :-) Eugene, I used to get frustrated trying to get people to see the same things that I thought were blatantly obvious. But now I'm much more interested in why people can have rock-solid but divergent views. And, like I said, I think in the situation of ID vs evolution (as it's commonly understood) it seems like a lot of the difference comes down to whether or not design is more or less parsimonious than non-design. I think it is that difference that determines when individuals pass from one sector to the next in Dr Dembski's explanatory filter argument. It's interesting. I suspect that the 'truth' will never be established to everyone's satisfaction. I don't think our 'resolution' of the past will ever be good enough to convince some ID proponents that purely naturalistic 'cause are adequately explanatory. And I'm very sure that the design inference will never be acceptable to most biologists unless the designer herself showed the world her design implementation notebooks. So, I figure, we'd best learn to get along and continue to do research.Jerad
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
06:56 AM
6
06
56
AM
PDT
Jerad, No problem. Of course, there are different views, no doubt about it. My point was two-fold, that ID is science and that it agrees with a theistic world view. I have no intention to make anyone change their views. I, as perhaps everyone else here, simply lay out my arguments and try to support them. It was great to have this discussion.Eugene S
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
Jerad, With ID, I'm not sure anyone wants ID to be a grand unifying theory. I think we are content with it being narrow: there are signs that some features of life have been designed by a designer. That's it. That's a humble, non-overreaching theory. This can accommodate a lot of what we have learned about evolution; genetic drift, natural selection, even some growth through random mutation. The problem some people see with both creationism and darwinism, is that they both attempt to become an entire worldview instead of a limited theory that explains the evidence.Collin
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
06:24 AM
6
06
24
AM
PDT
Eugene, I can't bear solipsism either. Even though I DO find materialism logical and intellectually satisfying. Like I said, I think at the root we disagree at a teleological level. But that's okay!! I respect your view even if mine is different. I just like to be clear about where we differ; no sense in arguing over it really. I'm gonna stay out of the existence of an after-life discussions. I can certainly see how your view arises out of some of the same things you find more parsimonious than I do so . . . we're just gonna disagree and, in the end, there's probably no way either of us are gonna change our minds!! I will repeat a joke I came up with though: The worst thing about not believing in an after-life is not being able to say 'I told you so' later. Perhaps though, someday, you'll be able to say that to me!! :-)Jerad
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
06:00 AM
6
06
00
AM
PDT
Jerad, I don't know much about Stonehendge, but the independent bit about such structures, that you are looking for, is specification, in general. Research tells us that the structure of many burial sites often resemble the uterus. It is astonishingly simply explained: death in many religious systems is viewed as birth into after-life, hence the veneration of the earth in many prehistoric cults. This is specification enough by me. BTW, the ubiquitous belief in after-life is also evidence in its own right, in my opinion.Eugene S
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
02:40 AM
2
02
40
AM
PDT
Jerad, Of course, a discussion should always be civil. I value this very much! Yes, I know, the link does not work. I found it out only after posting my comment. It was a link to a post here at UD some time ago (it's already old enough to have disappeared from the headlines) about published psychology studies (published in high profile peer reviewd journals) of which something like 90% was bluff or mere speculations which could not be replicated. I have seen stats like that at UD before. The question is, who benefits from lowering scientific standards? My point was, of course, there still are some independent oases of science even today but there are rather exceptions than the rule. Unfortunately, Darwinistic macroevolution is not falsifiable either. I am not fond of solipsism of any kind, I'm afraid. I have noticed that evolutionary-minded scientists tend to be solipsistic to different degrees sometimes even to the extent of being sympathetic of Buddhism. I view it as a consequence of systematic adherence to evolution/emergentism. There is a big observational chasm: we can see teleology in biosphere and yet we know that nature itself is inert to purpose. I think that the only explanational way out is design. I find it logical and intellectually satisfying.Eugene S
May 28, 2012
May
05
May
28
28
2012
02:25 AM
2
02
25
AM
PDT
Chance and Eric, I feel that I really have cleared up some of my impressions about ID and I want to be sure I understand it properly. We all are in awe of the world and universe around us. We are all looking at the same lifeforms and data. We actually have a lot more in common than we think. Regarding DNA . . . I too look forward to finding out more and more about this amazing molecule and it's ability to carry information that is capable of constructing a human or an elephant or a tape worm or a giant redwood tree or . . . whatever!! And, I admit, some of my comments came from reading other people's views; I certainly could do with a greater personal understanding. Eric, I see your point about critising evolutionary theory. I find that if I criticise ID I get a similar response to mine from ID proponents: how is evolutionary theory better then eh? EH??? I'll stop though. I am terribly curious though about what kind of unifying ID theory people are contemplating. There used to be talk about pre-loading but I haven't seen that come up recently. I'd love to see a in-ID debate about some of the finer points. For sure some of those processes are not (may not ever be) fully understood. Again, it's MY parsimony that gets me past those issues. I agree: gotta make sure the design inference is warranted. That HAS to be one of the cornerstones of ID. I look forward to that question being answered AND the secondary questions being addressed. Again, regardless of which side of the controversy you stand it's a very exciting time to be alive!! Stuff is being discovered!! Chance, good extended quote. Thanks for including so much. I'm gonna have to spend more time looking at what is now known about DNA!! I'm not sure I'll have the time to even catch up except in a vague, dilettante kind of way. So much knowledge, so little time . . . Monday is not a holiday here in Ye Olde England but I hope all you Yanks have a lovely day and don't forget to give thanks for those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.Jerad
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
11:59 PM
11
11
59
PM
PDT
“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. but I can find out no such case.” Mr Darwin was not aware of the discovery of DNA which would take place 100 years later. It is the transfer of information from DNA that makes the production of biomolecules possible, and it is that information which is evolving. The transfer of genetic information (or any other form of recorded information) requires two physically arbitrary arrangments of matter, a representation and a protocol. One arrangment is entirely useless without the other. They must both exist, and must be coordinated together despite their inherent arbitray nature. If not, then no information will be conveyed. The "complex organ" which Mr Darwin refers to, turns out to be a process; the transfer of recorded information. The very thing driving the observations for which he is famous.Upright BiPed
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
09:26 PM
9
09
26
PM
PDT
Jerad, I second Eric Anderson's post @87, especially taking note of the honesty and courtesy you display in your disagreement. While I would love to see you converted to ID and your soul saved from whatever purgatory it might be inhabiting ;-) I think I'll enjoy your comments on this blog until that happens. And a hearty "here here" to your closing comment about Memorial day. I just started reading James Shapiro's Evolution: A View from the 21st Century and I think I'm going to enjoy it. With some thought to your intimation regarding DNA's haphazard nature, I'm including some quotes from the introduction.
"Conventional evolutionary theory made the simplifying assumption that inherited novelty was the result of chance or accident. Darwin theorized that adaptive change resulted from natural selection applied to countless random small changes over long periods of time. In Chapter 6 of _Origin of Species_, he wrote: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. but I can find out no such case." He's neo-Darwinist followers took the same kind of black-box approach in the pre-DNA era by declaring all genetic change to be accidental and random with respect to biological function or need. With the discovery of DNA as a hereditary storage medium in the 1940s and early 1950s, the accidental view of change received a molecular interpretation as arising from inevitable errors in the replication process. As many professional and popular press articles attest, the accidental, stochastic nature of mutations is still the prevailing and widely accepted wisdom on the subject." "In the context of earlier ideological debates about evolution, this insistence on randomness and accident is not surprising. It springs from a determination in the 19th and 20th Centuries by biologists to reject the role of a supernatural agent in religious accounts of how diverse living organisms originated. While that determination fits with the naturalistic boundaries of science, the continued insistence on the random nature of genetic change by evolutionists should be surprising for one simple reason: empirical studies of the mutational process have inevitably discovered patterns, environmental influences, and specific biological activities at the roots of novel genetic structures and altered DNA sequences. The perceived need to reject supernatural intervention unfortunately led the pioneers of evolutionary theory to erect an _a priori_ philosophical distinction between the "blind" processes of hereditary variation and all the other adaptive functions." "Living cells do not operate blindly. They continually acquire information about the external environment and monitor their internal operations. Then they use this information to guide the processes essential to survival, growth, and reproduction. Cells constantly adjust their metabolism to available nutrients, control their progress through the cell cycle to make sure that all progeny are complete at the time of division, repair damage as it occurs, and interact appropriately with other cells. In a multicellular context, they even undergo programmed cell death when suicide is beneficial to the entire population or to the multicellular organism as a whole." Evolution: A View from the 21st Century
All of these assumptions of junk, poor organization, and haphazard nature, are quickly evaporating in a dizzying array of discoveries which demonstrate such an elegant interplay of information and its processing machinery, as to leave investigators awestruck. Shapiro has called the processes occurring in the cell "cognitive processes." DNA, as part of this "cognitive" configuration of mechanisms, serves many more purposes than just coding for proteins. It is indeed premature to judge how data is organized, when we're just beginning to understand what some of that data is for. Data stored on DNA is read and rewritten on the fly, for a variety of purposes that we're only starting to become aware of. Cheers.Chance Ratcliff
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
05:41 PM
5
05
41
PM
PDT
Jerad wrote:
Okay, that’s a few IFs for sure. And you might say I have to have a certain amount of faith to believe that those ifs are the case. And I would say that there is nothing in the mounds and mounds and mounds of physical, independent evidence to contradict those ifs. Improbably not being a contradiction. And I would say it’s the most parsimonious view because I’m only assuming the observable laws of physics and chemistry and I’m not assuming the presence of an intelligent designer for which I have no physical traces of.
Jerad, thank you for the honest appraisal of your own position. I think it is important to acknowledge one's assumptions and it is very rare here for us to see an ID critic (friendly or not) stand up and lay his cards openly on the table. Kudos.
I know, I know: DNA is incredibly complex and all that. But you know what? Compared to human generated computer code it’s pretty badly laid out structurally. There are whole chunks of repeated, non-coding sections. And they differ between members of the same species. The number of chromosomes varies immensely from species to species as does the number of base pairs. What DNA does is pretty incredible but, unlike good structured computer code, it’s darn hard to read. And if the designer commented their code well . . . we haven’t found that yet. Frankly, it’s kind of like the worst kludge job ever. Not to mention all the broken genes, transposons, envs, pseudo genes, etc. It’s a mess.
With all due respect, you might be benefitted by reading up on DNA, the myth of the so-called junk, the incredible structure, which is not only in the symbols themselves, but in the very three-dimensional placement of certain sections of DNA. Also, the junk-DNA idea is getting pretty tired the longer it goes on. Those who think that DNA is a kludge mess with little functionality are standing firmly on the wrong side of the evidentiary flow. Think about it: we hardly know the first thing about DNA, what it contains and how it works. By definition every new discovery about DNA function will demonstrate more DNA capability, not less. Standing here as we do at the early threshold of our ability to dimly glimpse DNA's capabilities -- barely scratching the surface as we have -- and proclaiming that DNA is a mess, is the very epitome of an argument from ignorance. Finally, we haven't yet programmed anything even close to DNA. Sure we know how to set up neat linear databases that look more "organized." But we don't have multi-layered, multi-directional databasing and certainly don't have anything that functions with micro and macro three-dimensional inputs. We are still way behind DNA, even after more than a half century of thousands of people working on computer systems. Is it possible that one day we will have a database system that rivals or exceeds DNA? Not anytime soon, but yes, it is possible. Will that mean that DNA was not designed? Of course not.
Joe, I think that’s fair enough. But it’s kind of disingenuous of you to attack another model when you haven’t got a better alternative yet.
This is one of the last defenses of the materialist: "Prove to me you've got something better. Oh, and by the way, it has to be purely materialistic and naturalistic to count." It is perfectly legitimate to criticize evolutionary theory on its own merits, regardless of whether one has a replacement theory or even thinks there is a replacement theory.
Eric, I don’t see what the unspecified, unidentified process that violates the known laws that is the source of life is.
I was referring to various vague, inchoate ideas about how things like the following would actually work given our understanding of chemistry and physics: (i) self-organization, (ii) chemical abiodenesis events naturally leading to a living organism, (iii) random mutations giving rise to complex functionally specific biological features.
But 500 million years ago who was there to do designing?
Well, that is certainly an interesting question, isn't it! :) And an interesting one to contemplate. But it is a second order question. The first question is whether X is designed. Only then do we get to the second order questions of by whom, when, how, etc. It is absolutely legitimate to ask and answer the first question, even if we have no idea what second-order questions that answer may spawn.
Hope you have a great Sunday and please, please, please take the time on Monday (especially if you’re American) remembering those who gave their lives in defense of the rest of us. And help support the men and women who are still with us who put themselves on the line but are now having trouble taking care of themselves. We owe them. Still.
Good reminder. Thanks for a classy comment.Eric Anderson
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
03:50 PM
3
03
50
PM
PDT
Gosh, I thought someone was going to jump all over me for admitting that sometimes it is possible to infer design knowing nothing about the designer. :-) I was going to add to my admission that we were talking about a very complex INANIMATE configuration of objects. And, as Joe points out, there would be traces of involvement left behind which I would want to find. Desperately. And part of the reason I find ID hard to accept is the lack of such traces. Which fall under what I'm always asking for: independent physical evidence. Chance, I am having a very nice weekend thank you!! Our weather has finally become Spring-like!!! I find most of your reasoning perfectly acceptable for non-living, non-replicating (beyond things like crystals which are clearly governed by the laws of chemistry and physics) things. No question: without an intelligent designer you don't get 747s or Stonehenge. And I agree evolutionary theory's got nuthin' until there is a basic, self-replicating, somewhat error prone molecule. OOL is . . . very tricky. Now . . . the formation of that basic molecule is subject to the laws of chemistry and physics and highly dependent on the raw materials available. It's a tough problem. But, IF that gets started and the pure materialist view is true then computers and microwaves and Justin Bieber ARE greatly extended products of the laws of chemisty and physics. Okay, that's a few IFs for sure. And you might say I have to have a certain amount of faith to believe that those ifs are the case. And I would say that there is nothing in the mounds and mounds and mounds of physical, independent evidence to contradict those ifs. Improbably not being a contradiction. And I would say it's the most parsimonious view because I'm only assuming the observable laws of physics and chemistry and I'm not assuming the presence of an intelligent designer for which I have no physical traces of. I know, I know: DNA is incredibly complex and all that. But you know what? Compared to human generated computer code it's pretty badly laid out structurally. There are whole chunks of repeated, non-coding sections. And they differ between members of the same species. The number of chromosomes varies immensely from species to species as does the number of base pairs. What DNA does is pretty incredible but, unlike good structured computer code, it's darn hard to read. And if the designer commented their code well . . . we haven't found that yet. Frankly, it's kind of like the worst kludge job ever. Not to mention all the broken genes, transposons, envs, pseudo genes, etc. It's a mess. Joe, I think that's fair enough. But it's kind of disingenuous of you to attack another model when you haven't got a better alternative yet. I look forward to the unifying law of intelligent design. That would be something. I've been trying to be questioning of ID and not attacking. If I've crossed that line then I apologise. Eric, I don't see what the unspecified, unidentified process that violates the known laws that is the source of life is. We certainly do see intellingence around us all the time designing inanimate objects. And sometimes designing animate ones via selective breeding and, more recently, direct genetic manipulation. But 500 million years ago who was there to do designing? I think, and this is helpful to me, that when it comes down to it we find different things to be parsimonious. And I think that knowing that does help in mutual understanding of the issues and controversy. So thanks!! I feel like I have a better understanding of how y'all see the situation. I do, honestly, look forward to some kind of ID unifying theory or consensus. And I encourage you to work towards that goal. Hope you have a great Sunday and please, please, please take the time on Monday (especially if you're American) remembering those who gave their lives in defense of the rest of us. And help support the men and women who are still with us who put themselves on the line but are now having trouble taking care of themselves. We owe them. Still. Cheers!!Jerad
May 27, 2012
May
05
May
27
27
2012
12:26 AM
12
12
26
AM
PDT
Jerad:
I find it more parsimonious to assume the same natural processes we see in action now were what was present in the past . . .
Exactly. Which is precisely why it makes more sense to think that an intelligent agent -- which we see around us every day and the effects of which we see every day -- is a more reasonable answer than some unknown, unspecified, as-yet-unidentified process that violates everything we currently understand about chemistry and physics is the source of life and the complex functional specified information we see in life.Eric Anderson
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
Jerad, I am perfectly OK with telling students "we don't know and you will become very famous if you figure it out". But anyway, as I said one prediction of Intelligent Design, as with archaeology and forensics, is that when agencies act they tend to leave traces of their involvement behind- signs of work or counterflow, that we can detect. And in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only poosible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. Something else to think about- natural processes only exist in nature and therefor cannot account for its beginning, which science says it had.Joe
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
05:17 PM
5
05
17
PM
PDT
Jerad, thanks much for your reply. "I find it more parsimonious to assume the same natural processes we see in action now were what was present in the past than to hypothesis an intelligent designer which we have no independent evidence for at any time." I think you're misunderstanding my point. But first, let me address the second part of your comment. We garner evidence for a cause, by first taking note of its effect. Regardless of how one feels about the concept of God, it's pretty clear by way of simple reasoning that there is an element which appears in nature but is not explicable by natural processes: agency. There is no material account for it, and it does things which physical processes cannot: design things. We can detect it's effect, and thus infer a cause. (If the causal hypothesis produces no empirical evidence, we toss it out.) Here's a little bit of deductive reasoning in an attempt to demonstrate the causal uniqueness of agency. 1) If designed things are merely natural things, then physical law can account for observed design. 2) physical law cannot account for observed design. 3) Therefore, designed things are not merely natural things. (1, 2 MT) Perhaps you see the problem here. There is a category of phenomena which cannot be accounted for by physics and chemistry (e.g., physics and chemistry are not sufficient causes for jet airplanes). 1) Either physics and chemistry can alone account for jet airplanes, or there is another causal phenomenon which is required to account for them. 2) Physics and chemistry cannot alone account for jet airplanes. 3) Therefore, there is another causal phenomenon which is required to produce them. (1, 2 DS) Without any faith but that which we place in logic, it becomes obvious through trivial deduction that there is something else at play. Even if we don't understand the precise nature of that "something," reason alone exposes a category of explanation which must be differentiated from physical law and chance. 1) If necessity, chance, and agency can account for most of what we observe, then together they form a mostly-complete causal account of reality. 2) Necessity, chance, and agency can account for most of what we observe. 3) Therefore, together they form a mostly-complete causal account of reality. (1, 2 MP) As you can see, chance, necessity, and agency are differing causal accounts, so it makes little sense to attempt to explain agency by material law; because if agency is removed, based on the other deductions, there is a significant number of categorically similar things which can no longer be explained. Agency might be mysterious and "spooky," but basic reasoning tells us that it's real; and so does direct perceptual evidence. Even if one takes some premises as provisional, as it stands now, physics cannot account for some of the most prominent things we observe: matter, time, space, agency, civilization, the universe, etc. Nor can it account for itself, logic, mathematics, philosophy, beauty, and form, none of which are physical in nature. Nor can it be taken for granted, since it came into being in a finite past. This is not "faith" in the common secular understanding; it is a principle observation of the nature of reality. Allow me to respond to the first part of your comment. I would agree, if what we observe today could account for its own cause, it would certainly be parsimonious. But herein lies the problem. Darwinian evolution can only perform its putative function once a DNA-based replicator is in place. Before that system exists, Darwinian evolution cannot function. It's based on heritable variation, and the only heritable variation that we observe is the result of a biological mechanism consisting of protein machines acting on a data storage medium, which itself encodes the protein machines required for its function. So there is simply no justification for thinking that a process which relies on a material configuration of parts into a system, is itself responsible for the system. No such process exists, because it is not logically coherent. Here, reality closes in around the evolutionary account, to result in a biological singularity. It's fairly apparent that physical things cannot explain themselves. They require another cause. The point being, Darwinian evolution traces all of its capability back to a super miniaturized factory of brilliant engineering, containing untold vast amounts of specified complexity. It doesn't make sense to explain specified complexity by appealing to a system which is specified and complex, and a process, heritable variation, which relies on specified complexity. So any explanation which is supposed to result in physical law being implicated as the cause of such a system, must explain the system itself. It does no good to examine the capabilities of the system, and credit them with designing the very system in which they occur; it's nonsensical in that regard. Anything else I say here would just be more restatement of my original comment in #77. There is no undue faith on my part, Jerad; but rather it traces back to reason: that there exists a necessary causal explanation for the patterns of design that we observe as a matter of direct experience, and for which no material account has so far even begun to explain. Faith only comes to bear when attempting to explain matter as a sufficient cause for design, absent any compelling evidence for the assertion. One may not feel comfortable positing a "god" to account for the overwhelming appearance of design in biology; but to insist that only material causes are sufficient or permissible, dismisses direct perceptual experience, as well as other evidences, that there is a causal category which better accounts for design indicia than the undefined extrapolation of physical law. I hope you enjoy the rest of your Saturday. :-) Best, ChanceChance Ratcliff
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
Collin, Good question!! Reminds me of 2001 (the movie not the year). Well, something that specifically lined up with celestial events . . . gotta be designed hasn't it? And the structure is too complicated (especially with hollow spots underneath the lintels that sit on pegs on top of the uprights). And the Aubry holes around the outside. Yeah, okay, it's gotta be designed. Sigh. But I am talking about something darn close to Stonehenge. And I'd start looking for evidence of how it was constructed . .. how were the holes for the uprights dug. Are there tool marks on the uprights. Any other artefacts around? Any rubbish? Broken tools. Etc. Okay, I agree, point taken: something like Stonehenge has got to be designed. But I'd be very, very surprised if there wasn't some other indications of who the designer(s) was/were.Jerad
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Jerad, If you found Stonehenge on Mars would you assume that it was designed? Not design? Make no assumption at all and wait for further facts?Collin
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
09:44 AM
9
09
44
AM
PDT
Joe, Okay, so what's the alternative then? That can answer the kind of questions you're asking me?Jerad
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
08:00 AM
8
08
00
AM
PDT
Jerad, I did the work and the answers I seek do not exist. That you cannot post nor reference the answers proves my point. Thank you. Also as I said Stonehenge is unique compared with those other simple stone circles. And yes I have looked into the archaeology of Great Britain. Ya see archaeology proves my point that we figure out information about the designers by studying what they left behind. And agency involvement is a mechanism. Design is a mechanism. A mechanism is just a way or means of doing something. As for a matter of faith well obvioul;sy that is all you have as there isn't any evidebce that demonstrates genetic accidents can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new and useful multi-protein configurations.Joe
May 26, 2012
May
05
May
26
26
2012
06:45 AM
6
06
45
AM
PDT
Joe, I'll let you do the work regarding most of your questions. You just keep asking questions for which the answers are readily avaialable and never seem to get around to answering some basic questions about your alternative to the modern consensus synthesis. I can't tell if you haven't got an alternative or if you're just taunting me. I'm trying to be honest and fair. But, regarding the existence of humans around the time of Stonehenge . . . you really should read about the archaeology of ancient Britain. Stonehenge is A datum among hundreds. And, as I said, it's far from the only stone circle or even massive stone circle. I'm not going to reproduce textbooks worth of information; if you really want to know you can find out for yourself. A very good recent book is Britain BC by Francix Pryor. On, one more thing: agency is cause but not mechanism. And you know evolutionary theory doesn't just say sometime stuff happened. You're not taking this serously are you? Chance, I find it more parsimonious to assume the same natural processes we see in action now were what was present in the past than to hypothesis an intelligent designer which we have no independent evidence for at any time. But, as I've said, I think this is a crucial split between supporters of naturalistic common descent with modification and ID. And, again, I can't and won't argue with people for whom it is a matter of faith.Jerad
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
10:30 PM
10
10
30
PM
PDT
I don't think evolution can be separated from OOL problem. The protein machines of the type which replicate and transcribe DNA are exactly the types of protein machines that Darwinian evolution purports to account for. Yet it cannot account for those specifically, because they need to be present before proper replication can occur. So we need a second type of self-engineering theory to explain the proteins that are required for DNA-based replication. That's two disparate theories to account for the same type of phenomena: protein nanotechnology. Either that, or a unifying theory of evolution is required, which would likely be called...wait for it...evolution. ;-) That second theory (from zero to DNA replication) is really the only one that counts, imo. The first (Darwinian evolution) defines itself by a criteria which presupposes the engineering required to make it possible. Reproduction with variation is the result of the highly functional, purposeful configurations of tightly integrated nanotechnology. To rely on the internals of such a system to explain self-engineering is misguided at best. Relying on random mutations is quite apparently hopeless. The supposed parsimony in evolutionary explanations is absent.Chance Ratcliff
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
Jerad:
I know you added that criterion, but since Dr Behe’s criterion is controversial I left it off.
In what way is it controversial?
I’m not sure ID is an acceptable alternative hypothesis until it’s proponents get a bit more specific about what it’s saying.
As opposed to the "consensus" position which says something happened sometime in the distant past and things kept happening over billions of years and here we are- you mean better than that type of specification?
You don’t see any evidence for a mechnism.
I see plenty of evidence for agency involvement, which is a mechanism.
I seem to remember MIller, Dawkins and Coyne all proposing falsifications for their beliefs.
I don't. I don't remember them saying anything about a testable hypothesis for their position. Perhaps you could provide a reference.
I CARE if irreducible complexity is widely accepted. You should too. If it was your position would be much more tenable.
It is accepted enough that scientists and non-scientists are attempting to refute it. Stonehenge- we know what we know because we have investigated it. Ya know how we know there were people around at the time? Stonehenge. And Intelligent Design is the alternative- designed to evolved/ evolved by design as opposed to your position of evolution via accumulations of random mutations.Joe
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
Collin, A lot about about the construction methods is known regarding the pyramids. AND, even when specifics aren't known, the ability of the known designers around at the time do not exceed the construction. AND, most importantly, the inference to design is made with the knowledge that there were people around at the time!! This is what is so insulting with the Ancient Astronauts theory. Humans were too stupid to build these things. Don't buy into the 'it's all a mystery' notion. We know a lot.Jerad
May 25, 2012
May
05
May
25
25
2012
02:32 PM
2
02
32
PM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply