Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Insane or Simply Wrong?

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David W. Gibson asks some interesting questions in a comment to johnnyb’s last post.  First, he writes concerning Darwinism:  “How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after decades of detailed study, could STILL fall victim to the ‘transparently ludicrous’?”

Let me answer this question by referring to a couple of similar examples from hisotry.

In the second century Ptolemy devised his system of cosmology.  In this system each planet moves along a “deferent” and an “epicycle.”  The planet’s movement along these two paths cause it to move closer to and further away from the earth.  For the system to work, the planets sometimes had to slow down, stop, and even move backwards.

Tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world ascribed to Ptolemy’s cosmology from the publication of Almagest around 150 until well after the publication of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543.

But this system of deferents and epicycles is “transparently ludicrous” you say.  And so it is in retrospect.  Nevertheless it reigned nearly unchallenged for well over 1,000 years.

Here’s another example.  Humorism.  “This theory holds that the human body was filled with four basic substances, called humors, which are in balance when a person is healthy, and all diseases and disabilities result from an excess or deficit of one of these four humors. These deficits could be caused by vapors that were inhaled or absorbed by the body. The four humors were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood.”  Wikipedia.

Humorism was the prevailing medical orthodoxy from the time of Galen (circa 150 AD).  It was not definitively displaced until 1858 when Rudolf Virchow published his work on cellular pathology.

Your phrase “transparently ludicrous” comes readily to mind when we think about humorism now.  Yet it was the prevailing orthodoxy among tens of thousands of brilliant medical practitioners for nearly 2,000 years.

Now suppose one of Copernicus’ critics (and he had many; his theory was not accepted immediately) had said, “Hey Copernicus, how could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after 1,393 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to  a theory of cosmology that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

Or suppose one of Virchow’s critics had said, “Hey wait a minute!  How could it ever have come to pass that tens of thousands of the most intelligent humans in the world, after nearly 2,000 years of detailed study, could still fall victim to a theory of medicine that, if you are correct, is transparently ludicrous?”

I will put it to you David.  How should Copernicus or Virchow have answered those questions?

Finally you write:  “Centuries of scientific progress can only be explained by mass insanity. Does that work for you?”

First, I don’t know where you get “centuries.”  Origin was published in 1859.  That’s 153 years ago by my count.  Darwin has over 1,000 years to go before he reaches the same status as Ptolemy or Galen based on mere “age of the theory.”

Second, “mass insanity” is a nice strawman.  No one has suggested that someone who believes in Darwinism is insane.  They are simply wrong.

Were all cosmologists from Ptolemy to Copernicus insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

Were all doctors from Galen to Virchow insane?  No, they were simply wrong.

The essence of your argument for Darwinism is:  “All the smart people believe it; it must be true.”  I hope you understand now that that argument is not as airtight as you seem to think it is.

Comments
Eugene, Per your comments in 66 . . . OOL questons are tough. Because of my 'bias' I tend to lean to the 'give it time and see if it can be explained via material processes' point of view. But it's pretty clear there's a lot of work to be done. And, in this narrow case, design is unfalsifiable. I could give a plausible naturalistic OOL but it could be argued that there's no proof that's what happened. A materialistic approach will never address purpose in the teleological sense. Nor will I. Teleological considerations are outside of the realm of science. And that's the weakness of science. Skeptical about climbing Mt Improbable is good. That's why it's Mt Improbable!!! Which explanation has the least special pleading? I think this is where one of the big splits between ID and evolutionary theory is. What is the most parsimonious explanation? I don't see how to get over that. But thanks for giving me insight in the way you think about things. We may not ever agree but it doesn't mean we can't at least be civil and find some common ground. I figure.Jerad
May 25, 2012
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Jerad, "Stonehenge . . . cetain evidence of humans around at the time, lots of precursors, evidence of methods of construction, evidence of astrological interest . . . If you’re not going to accept anything except that which was unambiguously recorded for posterity then you have to reject ID as well. ‘Cause YOU WEREN’T THERE TO SEE IT. Are you sure you want to go down that road??" But this is making Joe's point. He is NOT saying that Stonehenge was not designed or that it is impossible to know if it were designed. Just the opposite. He is pointing out that it CAN be known even without knowing the mechanism or necessarily the exact identity of the designers. We know Stonehenge was built, but how did they do it without heavy machinery? Same question with the Pyramids. The mechanism is unknown, yet we can make a valid design inference.Collin
May 25, 2012
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Eugene, I can't follow your link in 67 above. Could you please try it again or send it to me off-blog??Jerad
May 25, 2012
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Joe, I know you added that criterion, but since Dr Behe's criterion is controversial I left it off. I'm not sure ID is an acceptable alternative hypothesis until it's proponents get a bit more specific about what it's saying. You don't see any evidence for a mechnism. I do. Whatever. I seem to remember MIller, Dawkins and Coyne all proposing falsifications for their beliefs. I CARE if irreducible complexity is widely accepted. You should too. If it was your position would be much more tenable. Stonehenge . . . cetain evidence of humans around at the time, lots of precursors, evidence of methods of construction, evidence of astrological interest . . . If you're not going to accept anything except that which was unambiguously recorded for posterity then you have to reject ID as well. 'Cause YOU WEREN'T THERE TO SEE IT. Are you sure you want to go down that road?? And Joe . . . where is your alternative?? You know what I think by now surely. Let's hear your view. This is the forum to do it. I'm in the minority. Step up on the soap box. You might think I've not defended my views but at least I'm stating them. And I think I"ve shown that I'm not here just to make fun. I do respect matters of faith in particular.Jerad
May 25, 2012
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Jerad:
And by the way, eliminating necessity and chance (which even Dr Behe admits has NOT been done, remember he said it would be foolish to categorically deny the possibility of purely naturalistic processes) does not mean design!
I know and that is why I said plus having it meet Dr Behe’s criteria. And if you accept what this alleged consensus accepts then intelligent design is a perfectly acceptable hypothesis. ya see not one bit of evidence for universal common descent pertains to any mechanism. Neither Coyne, Miller, Dawkins, not one of them knows how to test their claims. BTW "we don't know" is the default. And no one cares about whether or not irreduclible complexity is widely accepted. The fact remains that your position has nothing but some contrived nonsensical "default position". And guess what? Archaeologists weren't there for Stonehenge, yet they can say with 100% confidence that it was designed- cause and effect relationships.Joe
May 25, 2012
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Jerad, Makes me think of World of Warcraft and wondering if the avatars have any kind of consciousness. Probably not, but interesting idea to think about.Collin
May 25, 2012
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Eugene, (not a town in Oregon) :-) I'll follow up on your link later this evening. I'm in the UK and it's almost dinner time here. OOL is WAAAAYYYY different from evolution. I'm betting we'll probably never really know how life got started on earth. Just quickly 'cause I'd like to respond . . . my alternatives to chance, necessity and design include, admittedly far fetched things like: Time travel. Bleed through from other universes. We're living in a giant simulation. (Although some of the 'philosophy' behind the simulation hypothesis is kind of interesting.) You're all just part of my dream. I'm not saying I find any of these compelling but they are possibilities. Interestingly enough the notion that we're all part of some giant computer simulation matches ID pretty neatly. Anyway, sorry for being brisk but I wanted to try and answer at least some of your missive. I'll come back later and try and do a better job.Jerad
May 25, 2012
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Jerad, BTW, you were not convinced by me saying science was a big global enterprise today. Here is a pointer in defence of my worries, regarding contemporary standards of academic research in psychology.Eugene S
May 25, 2012
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Jerad, Thanks for your thoughts, too. I think it worth distinguishing between evolution and the OOL. These are two different things. What other non-design options do you think exist in addition to neccessity, chance and their combinations? In case, I don't think that a combination of chance and necessity brings anything new to the table: law can be cast on to chance by setting the probability close enough to 1.0. So there is not anything new in combinations of law and chance. Pan-spermia which you mentioned is no exception: it does not resolve the problem of initial complexity because the age of the universe and that of the Earth are of the same order of magnitude. I think that design is the only plausible phenomenon as regards the OOL. Design as a mode of explanation is more powerful than "just chemistry" because it does not preclude non-design elements. E.g. an engineer uses the laws of nature and creates a system operated by rules on top physicality. Biosystems can be viewed in the same way. I simply see no reason why they can't. There is another reason why I think that design is more powerful as a hypothesis. This is because unguided evolution as a principle completely disregards teleology. Unguided evolution is impotent as soon as we discuss purpose. Non-living matter is inert to teleology and therefore it cannot generate anything really useful, letting alone sophisticated self-replicating nano-machinery of the cell and, even less so, multicellular organisms. We simply don't have any evidence of formal, functional and controlled things (which biosystems are an example of) generated by laws of nature coupled with chance. I have no objections in principle to descent with modifications. I only question the extent of it. I am highly skeptical of the capabilities of blind unguided search 1. finding anything useful to start with (the current pre-biotic models do not have anything like natural selection to drive choice towards better utility), and 2. improving things to the degree of major body plan differences. I know that a small delta in genotype can be amplified at the phenotype level. I also know that biosystem landscapes can change dynamically. Even so, I remain highly skeptical of the optimistic evolutionary narrative of the type of climbing Mount Improbable, without teleology that is credibly delivered only via purposive agency. As soon as a myriad of practical considerations kick in, the analogy of Mount Improbable is replaced with the analogy of highly sophisticated and tuned artefacts that can only operate within a relatively small target zone in the configuration space.Eugene S
May 25, 2012
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Joe, Well, I think you know the consensus answer to most of your questions reagarding what is understood regarding the timing, the when, of at least some of the development lines of some modern species. Asking me to repeat them is kind of pointless. If you want to know, say, the timeline for the development of whales it's easy enough to find. And that timeline says when certain morphological changes had occurred by. So I think it's incorrect to say evolutionary theory does not address when. And it clearly addresses how and why, at least more specifically thatn I've heard from an ID proponent. So, I think it's time for you offer up your hypothesis at least up to the same level of specificity. It's silly to say I have to answer all your questions before you state your notions. UD is about ID not about evolutionary theory so . . . If you want to know what I accept assume I accept the modern consensus of common descent with modification. You know the stuff: Dawkins, Miller, Coyne. Well, that's partly true. Their popular books are NOT research, merely an imperfect reflection of the current understanding. What kind of testable alternative do non-design cosmologists need to provide? If there is no physical evidence of a designer then non-design is the null hypothesis. I suspect this is part of where you're coming from. For you design is the default position. I'm perfectly willing to accept the prescence of a designer being a matter of faith. I don't want to argue against that! How can we test the claim that the flagellum evolved via natural processes? As Dr Behe's contention of irreducibly complexity is not widely accepted I'd say, as before, that non-design is the default position. But it might be possible to show a step-by-step mutation sequence that could have brought the flagellum about. I'm not a cellular biologist. Even if we show a plausible pathway that doesn't mean that's the way it actually happened. That's not possible to know since we weren't there to observe it. If you're really just going to keep falling back upon "you've got no proof" then you'll never accept non-design. And I could say the same about design: you weren't there, you don't know. That's a dead-end. And by the way, eliminating necessity and chance (which even Dr Behe admits has NOT been done, remember he said it would be foolish to categorically deny the possibility of purely naturalistic processes) does not mean design! There are other options.Jerad
May 24, 2012
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Eric:
I'd like to understand how (i) simplicity of description favors design, and (ii) complexity of description favors a conclusion of chance/necessity.
Dembski would be the best source on this, since it's his framework. He has explained the inverse relationship between descriptive complexity and specified complexity throughout his career, including in The Design Inference (see the TRACT condition), No Free Lunch (see an example in his formulation of SpecRes on page 81), The Design of Life (page 169: "For something to exhibit specified complexity it must have low descriptive complexity ... "), this paper ("With specifications, the key to overturning chance is to keep the descriptive complexity of patterns low."), and this blog post ("So we have simplicity of description combined with complexity in the sense of improbability of the outcome. That's specified complexity and that's my criterion for detecting design.")R0bb
May 24, 2012
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David W. Gibson wrote:
I prepared a long reply to you in the reply box, but somewhere along the line I hit a wrong key and lost it all. This time I’ll use a real editor, and maybe not lose everything.
Sorry to hear that. I know it can be a real pain, as it has happened to me more than once. Thanks for being willing to write it up again.
I am trying to make the case that there is no design inference without sufficient knowledge of the history and background of any object. You may not realize that you have this background knowledge, you may not realize that you are assuming a history, but nonetheless these are required.
ID does not assume a particular history. Does it assume that things are built with physical elements that exist in some kind of historical context? Sure. Even the most ardent materialist assumes that what we see around us came to be at some point in history. But ID does not assume a particular history in terms of when, how, by whom, etc.
I’m arguing here that design cannot be deduced without the necessary background knowledge. I certainly agree that WITH the necessary background context and historical knowledge, design can be identified with excellent accuracy. But a specification is not something derived post facto from examining an object. Specification PRECEDES the design. . . . You simply cannot “identify specification criteria” after the fact. Specifications PRECEDE design.
This is a common misconception, but is demonstrably incorrect. It is possible to detect design after the fact. Indeed, in our everyday experience we almost always detect design after the fact. We see things around us all the time that we can tell are designed. We don’t have to know who designed them, what the specs are, what the designer’s motives, purposes or feelings are. In almost all instances in which you see something around you that was designed, you weren’t there to witness it being made, don’t know the designer, aren’t aware of his motives or purposes. You simply see the object and infer design, based on the characteristics of the object in question. And you do so after it has been designed and built and after you first see it. In addition, there are whole fields of scientific study predicated on the fact that design can be identified after the fact (cryptology, archaeology, forensics, SETI). Knowing specific specs, goals, motives, purposes of the designer and so forth would be interesting to be sure, but they are unnecessary to determine design.
Let’s say that as a devout Fairyist, I’m convinced that all automobiles are designed by garden fairies. Yeah, you can point to all those engineers in Detroit, you can trace their efforts from drawing board to assembly line, but I DON’T BELIVE IT! I believe in the fairies. PROVE ME WRONG! After all, cars certainly LOOK designed. And after all, garden fairies are known to be excellent designers of cars, I have a book that says so! (and that book is the very Word of the Fairies, so it is infallible). And since I’m a devout Fairyist, I ALREADY KNOW that garden fairies designed all cars. The design inference is perfectly clear, obvious to anyone except for one of them hated afairyists! So is my design inference reasonable?
I realize you are having a bit of fun with Biblical literalists (of which I am not one), but let me respond seriously anyway. No, your inference is not reasonable because you are going beyond the inference to design and are attempting to identify a particular designer. That is not part of the design inference, no matter how much you might want to identify the designer. All ID asks is whether something is designed. Period. So if you look at a car and tell me it is designed then, yes, that is a valid design inference. In contrast, if you tell me it was designed by fairies then you have gone beyond the design inference. You may have other corroborating evidence of your fairies and their design work. Fine. We can evaluate that evidence on its own merit. But it is not part of the design inference.Eric Anderson
May 24, 2012
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Jerad, Stonehenge is unique. The other stone circles do not compare to its structure. Dr Behe has not been refuted. For the most part he hasn't even been addressed. Again Intelligent Design is an alternative. You want us to say when and how yet your position cannot. Strange. And cosmologists can dosagree about ID in cosmology. Strange that they cannot provide a testable alternative. And no, your model is not testable. The pre-cambrian rabbit nonsense is laughable. Obviously you have no idea how to test the claims your position makes. Independent evidence for teh designer? The evidence for design in biology is independent from the evidence for design in cosmology which is independent from the evidence for design in physics which is independent from the evidence for design in chemistry. And what are your answers? Ya see it is useless for me to discuss ID with you until I know what it is you accept. So how can we test the claim that any flagellum evolved via accumulations of random mutations? We test the design inference by eliminating necessity and chance plus having it meet Dr Behe's criteria.Joe
May 24, 2012
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Eugene, Thank you for your thoughtful answer. I cannot see inside others' hearts and minds and it means a lot when someone takes the time to expose a little of their inner toughts and feelings. True, honest faith is a gift to be cherished. I tend to be a half-empty kind of person it's true!! Unless it's a wine glass in which case I'm a time-to-fill-it-up person!! :-) Collin, I think that's a very interesitng idea. I'm not sure if that can or will happen . . . certainly not these days when the battle lines are drawn. But I think some of the theistic evolutionists are kind of close to that attitude. Thanks for your ansswer. It's nice to hear your thoughts on these issues.Jerad
May 24, 2012
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Jerad, I don't think that the modern synthesis will be replaced, necessarily, but it will be modified to accommodate ID. ID seeks merely to show that some features of life are best explained by design rather than by natural processes. In this way it is different from darwinism or creationism which are world-views rather than scientific theories.Collin
May 24, 2012
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Jerad, It is an argument between an optimist and a pessimist over a glass of water. I am saying it's half full, you are saying it's half empty :) Strictly speaking, a fair scientist would jettison ID in this case, no probs. However, I personally strongly believe this will not happen, otherwise it would have had to happen routinely. My belief here is partly physical and partly metaphysical. As far as the physical side, you see, in any conducted experiment, there is a varying amount of human involvement, at least at the level of choosing the initial conditions, which is already a form of design (control). For a clear cut case, I would rather prefer non-intruding observation. Science today has no such observation. I did not say it was impossible, just highly unlikely on the gamut of our universe. As a scientist, I am happy with that. As per "why hide?" I have an answer, but it is metaphysical. In my world view physics is part of a much wider metaphysical framework so I have no problem being a scientist and holding a metaphysical view. So my answer is that God wants our inner self - our heart - to take part in our decision, not just our intelligence. As the Book of Wisdom has it, "Son, give Me your heart". For this reason, I don't think it will ever be possible to see God through a telescope and to prove His existence scientifically. He came here as a Son of a poor carpenter. That it was Him, I have evidence from eye-witnesses who passed on their experience to the Church: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life."Eugene S
May 24, 2012
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Jon, Fair enough. I'm not expecting to convert anyone. But I am hoping to hear what someone else's model is. Especially if the modern evolutionary synthesis is on it's last legs. What do you think will replace it? Again some 'whens' would be nice.Jerad
May 24, 2012
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Gibson, "We are EXPLAINING what we observe." But if you were biased against evolution, you would claim that this isn't science, it's story telling. You can't see your own bias here. These explanations cannot be tested themselves. Part of science includes reasonble inferences and this is what ID is trying to do. You're not convinced, fine. but to say it isn't science is silly, imo. You said that ID scientists do not do science, then I showed you how they used computer models to examine their ideas. I think they have gone to great length to define "information." On this site there have been extensive discussions about different definitions of information and what they may mean. I'm sure that there is a lot of of work to be done but just because it's nascient, doesn't mean its not science or worthwhile. I think you want to stiffle a new area of science just because you don't like the possible implications. Even if ID turns out to be wrong, the endeavor can still lead to important discoveries, just like how the study of alchemy helped lay the groundwork for chemistry. Or, imo, how scientists researching under the pseudoscientific dogma of darwinism have made many important discoveries.Collin
May 24, 2012
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And if 20 years from now someone is able to show life arising from non-life then will you jettison ID?
Wouldn't that be the scientific thing to do? Rather than to jettison it now because of the possibility that somebody might synthesise life one day? Science doesn't run on credit, does it? Or if it does we probably have another financial crisis on the way. A similar argument is made in the previous point:
Well, only if it’s impossible for the information to arise in a purely naturalistic way which has not yet been established.
Look at this logic historically: For millennia, people look at living things and say, "a superior mind has done this". A mere 150 years ago, Darwin says, "Hang on, here's a dead simple way to do it without intelligence." Then Watson and Crick discover that the "dead simple way" involves a code more complicated than anything the ancients admired or even imagined, and that's before all that's happened since in epigenetics and whatever. So is it really rational to say, "Well that's upset the apple cart, but I insist you stick to the new explanation in case we can figure out a way to make our simple theory run again"? No thanks. I'll go with the story as it is now, and change my mind when naturalism has cash in hand rather than an IOU.Jon Garvey
May 24, 2012
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Eugene S, 1. Dr Behe referenced computers not software viruses. I think software viruses (intelligently designed for sure!) are much better analogies. 2. I agree, the majority doesn't rule. But consensus founded on 150 years of evidence along several different and independent lines does. 3. Science is a giant industry? Really? Maybe but I don't know many rich academics. Some rich inventors and investors and companies. 4. Some physical evidence aside from the contention that DNA is intelligently designed would be nice. How about a obvious violation of the second law of thermodynamics? A big message in the sky? Something worthy of a real intelligence that knows what we know and how to prove its existence. Why hide? Positive evidence: 1. Well, only if it's impossible for the information to arise in a purely naturalistic way which has not yet been established. 2. I never said it was impossible for there to be an intelligent designer, just that there was no evidence of one. 3. Well, I think the existence of DNA is proof to the contrary. Negative evidence: 1. Improbable is not impossible. AND we don't know exactly how it happened. Maybe it was pan spermia? 2. Well, I think DNA is evidence of nature being able to produce complex specified information. And in the lack of any positive physical evidence to the contrary . . . . 2.1 And if 20 years from now someone is able to show life arising from non-life then will you jettison ID? Joe, There are many, many stone circles in England alone. Have you not seen them? You should look 'em up sometime. The one at Avebury is HUGE!! Dr Behe has been refuted, you just disagree. Fair enough. What's your alternate hypothesis to the modern evolutionary synthesis? Why does anyone accept the consensus position? I guess they look at the same data and come to a different conclusion. It happens. Many cosmologist disagree that design is apparent in cosmology. Same with physics and chemistry and biology. Just you saying it is apparent doesn't make it so. It's your opinion without contrary physical evidence and based on some assumptions about the nature of the designer. Why is the universe so empty and so deadly by the way? My model is very testable: find a rabbit in the Cambrian layer is the famous one. Find evidence of a chunk of genome just appearing in a lifeform. Find independent physical evidence of a designer. Find evidence of morphological changes occurring in one step. And ask yourself: why is there no physical evidence? Why did the designer leave no message or tools or a workshop or whatever? Why hide the fact that some lifeforms at least were purposely created? You must wonder about that. What is your answer? AND what is your thought out, specific, testable alternative?? I may not have answered all your questions. I'm not an expert on evolutionary theory so my inability to answer some questions is no failing of the consensus. And, really, you already know what my answers are going to be so it's really pointless for me to repeat them. But it's an excellent time for you to give me your alternative. I promise to listen.Jerad
May 24, 2012
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Joe, Good comments. It amazes me how many mistakes grown-up sensible people who are seemingly trained and experienced scientists can make in just understanding what ID claims and what it does not claim. Well, ok, criticisms are fine but surely not this type of misunderstanding.Eugene S
May 24, 2012
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To David W Gibson and Jerad- How can we test the claim that any flagellum evolved via darwinian/ neo-darwinian processes, ie accumulations of random mutations? BTW ID is not anti-evolution. ID is OK with organsims being designed to evolve and evolving by design. So what, exactly, does your position have to offer? How can it be tested? Can you even produce a testable hypothesis?Joe
May 24, 2012
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Jerad:
Unless we saw it being created or already had lots of examples of similar objects/constructions having been designed as is the case with Stonehenge.
1- If we saw it being created then we wouldn't need science to help us determine how it was created 2- There isn't anything like Stonehenge to compare to
Many people feel that ID theory too quickly jumps to the inference of agency, that not enough consideration has been given to the possible natural causation.
As I said all any one of them has to do is step up and demonstrate nature can do it (without agency involvement).
Maybe Dr Behe hasn’t got a clue how it would work.
Obvioulsy no one else does either as no one has been able to refute Behe.
Do you really think most biologists with years of expertise in evolutionary genetics would agree with him?
They cannot refute him.
And the computer analogy is not good; computers are not self replicators.
Your position cannot explain self-replication.
Comparing complex biological structures with inanimate objexts misses the point entirely.
Nope, because you need to explain that complex biology, which your position cannot do.
So why does he accept the design inference when there is no other evidence of a designer?
Why does anyone accept your position when it doesn't have any evidence to support it-? As I said design is evidenced is several sciences- biology, chemistry, cosmology, physics. And again you ask for an alternative yet your "model" is totally untestable as evidenced by your avoidance of my questions.Joe
May 24, 2012
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Jerad, Let me comment on some of your concerns (your comment #50). 1. software viruses do replicate themselves. So self-replicating software does exist and is a good analogy. It is in fact a very profound analogy of biosystems. It is already common place to speak about bio-"programming", coding/decoding, etc. It is not a superficial borrowing of terms but it reflects deep commonalities between sotware/hardware and biology. 2. Majority is not sufficient to judge whether a scientific theory is grounded or not. A majority could be wrong. Georg Ohm was severely criticised by his conteporaries and yet they were wrong and he was right. 3. Science today is not what it was 200 years ago. Science now has become a giant global industry which is driven by money more than it is driven by fair inquiry in quest for scientific truth. 3. What other evidence of a designer do you require? You see, life had a beginning. It started somehow. We say that a lot of evidence exists that points to an intelligent cause of it. We can't decide on it with a 100% certainty because it was a one-off process. But... indirect evidence does exist (both positive and negative). Positive evidence includes: 1. high Kolmogorov complexity coupled with functionality & specification. 2. the existence of synthetic biology as a proof of concept for ID. 3. overwhelming empirical evidence suggests that functionality/control requires intelligence employing rules on top of physicality. Negative evidence: 1. statistical implausibility of a spontaneous emergence of life or of anything else functional out of multiple non-functional components. It is highly implausible without intelligent input. 2. the absence of any observations to support the hypothesis whereby nature is capable of producing anything complex & functional. It can only generate low informational redundant regularity (crystals, convection patterns, chemical hyper-cycles). In a word, nature cannot produce controls, it only produces constraints. 2.1. In particular, the absense of any observations of nature producing life from non-life today.Eugene S
May 24, 2012
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Joe,
And according to Newton’s four rules of scientific investigation we attempt to explain it using the fewest possible variables, with agency involvement being the last addition.
Unless we saw it being created or already had lots of examples of similar objects/constructions having been designed as is the case with Stonehenge. Many people feel that ID theory too quickly jumps to the inference of agency, that not enough consideration has been given to the possible natural causation.
Might there be some as-yet-undiscovered natural process that would explain biochemical complexity? No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility. Nonetheless, we can say that if there is such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further, it would go against all human experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers.
Maybe Dr Behe hasn't got a clue how it would work. Do you really think most biologists with years of expertise in evolutionary genetics would agree with him? Quantum mechanics goes against human experience and it's true. And the computer analogy is not good; computers are not self replicators. Not yet anyway. :-) Comparing complex biological structures with inanimate objexts misses the point entirely. And even Dr Behe admits it would be foolish to deny the possibility of a natural process at work. So why does he accept the design inference when there is no other evidence of a designer? And again, give me your model and let's see how it stacks up. You've got plenty of criticism of evolutionary theory, what's your specific alternative? When were designs implemented? Let's start with that.Jerad
May 23, 2012
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Collin,
Clearly you did not read the article I sent you.
Reading it and agreeing with it are not the same thing.
It lists many research papers published in support of ID.
I am familiar with many of them. They do not support ID. You seem to confusing SAYING something supports ID, with actual support.
Some of these are most just critical of evolution, but many are substantive research. For example, many delve into information theory and compare and contrast properties of the cell with computer models. If this is not real science then climate science and astronomy are not either. It seems like you have this disdain for ID scientists.
To be honest, I am not familiar with any ID scientists, so you may be right. Those I AM familiar with do not do science as I understand the term. I have not seen any good definitiion of "information" that supports any ID claims. I've seen plenty of hazy assertions using the WORD information, of course. I have a lot of understanding of (and therefore respect for) computer modeling. Models are constructed to make predictions. By this (I realize now I have to make this explicit), I mean CLEAR, carefully defined predictions. Saying "gee, I expect a bunch of information" is NOT a prediction unless we are rigorous in defining both "bunch" and "information". The construction and operation of biological cells is pretty well described and understood. I have not seen anyone in the world of ID claiming it works any differently, I've only seen expressions of incredulity that the cell could possibly be BOTH so intricately complicated, and not designed. Argument by incredulity doesn't impress me.
Concerning the scientific methodology you speak of, I would echo Joe and ask how would you use the hypothesis of random mutation, natural selection and common descent in an experiment to show how something like the bacterial flagellum evolved? Is it possible?
Back up a moment. What exactly do you mean by "possible"? I mean, obviously the bacterial flagellum exists, so clearly it's possible. In principle, EVERYTHING that is physically possible lies within the search space of evolution. Very little of what is physically possible is actually stumbled on by evolution, of course. So I don't really understand what you and Joe are asking. Consider all possible bridge hands. Only a small fraction of them have ever occurred. So take one particular hand (deal it right now, if you wish). How could we set up an experiment NOT showing that it was possible, but showing exactly how it came to be? The shuffling process is invisible to us. But the shuffling process must be sufficient to produce this hand, because here it is. I'll try to be as clear as I can. The evolutionary process as currently understood, permits the exploration of everthing that is physicaly possible for any organism, limited by the evolutionary requirement that there must be some way to get there from HERE. Just like the shuffling process makes every different bridge hand possible.
Or have “real” scientists merely resorted to ad hoc explanations about how it “might” have evolved by cooption? Is it only real science when “mainstream” scientists make inferences?
If it can be tested, it's science. Various principles have been observed and identified. Incrementalism. Cooption. Spandrels. Branching. Adaptation. Mutation. Many others. Consider these to be tools known to work in the toolbox. With the tools in the box, could the biosphere as we observe it have happened? Oops, wrong question. The tools in the box have been abstracted and tested from what we observe in the biosphere. We are EXPLAINING what we observe.David W. Gibson
May 23, 2012
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Eric Anderson, I prepared a long reply to you in the reply box, but somewhere along the line I hit a wrong key and lost it all. This time I'll use a real editor, and maybe not lose everything.
This is a false description of ID, and I suspect you know it. Alternatively, you don’t understand the design inference.
I am trying to make the case that there is no design inference without sufficient knowledge of the history and background of any object. You may not realize that you have this background knowledge, you may not realize that you are assuming a history, but nonetheless these are required.
First, ID has never taken the position that it is possible to identify that something was not designed. The major ID proponents have been very clear that ID is about detecting whether some things are designed. It has never been about being able to identify everything that is designed.
I understand this. I'm arguing here that design cannot be deduced without the necessary background knowledge. I certainly agree that WITH the necessary background context and historical knowledge, design can be identified with excellent accuracy.
Second, ID has never taken the position that complexity is sufficient to identify design. ID proponents have been clear that in addition to complexity there must be a specification.
Yes, I know. But a specification is not something derived post facto from examining an object. Specification PRECEDES the design. The resulting object may or may not meet the spec. You have no way of knowing UNLESS you know the designer's spec and his goals, motives, and purposes. This is what I'm referring to by background contextual knowledge.
We can debate whether ID proponents have been able to identify specification criteria sufficient to conclude design, but it is clear that complexity is not sufficient.
You simply cannot "identify specification criteria" after the fact. Specifications PRECEDE design.
So, congratulations. In two sentences you managed to get two fundamental aspects of the design inference wrong.
Hopefully you realize that I wrote tongue-in-cheek. In reality, THERE IS NO DESIGN INFERENCE without the necessary historical, contextual background information. Let's say that as a devout Fairyist, I'm convinced that all automobiles are designed by garden fairies. Yeah, you can point to all those engineers in Detroit, you can trace their efforts from drawing board to assembly line, but I DON'T BELIVE IT! I believe in the fairies. PROVE ME WRONG! After all, cars certainly LOOK designed. And after all, garden fairies are known to be excellent designers of cars, I have a book that says so! (and that book is the very Word of the Fairies, so it is infallible). And since I'm a devout Fairyist, I ALREADY KNOW that garden fairies designed all cars. The design inference is perfectly clear, obvious to anyone except for one of them hated afairyists! So is my design inference reasonable?David W. Gibson
May 23, 2012
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Mr. Gibson, Clearly you did not read the article I sent you. It lists many research papers published in support of ID. Some of these are most just critical of evolution, but many are substantive research. For example, many delve into information theory and compare and contrast properties of the cell with computer models. If this is not real science then climate science and astronomy are not either. It seems like you have this disdain for ID scientists. Concerning the scientific methodology you speak of, I would echo Joe and ask how would you use the hypothesis of random mutation, natural selection and common descent in an experiment to show how something like the bacterial flagellum evolved? Is it possible? Or have "real" scientists merely resorted to ad hoc explanations about how it "might" have evolved by cooption? Is it only real science when "mainstream" scientists make inferences? Eric, I would add that if the complexity is "irreducible" then it can support the design inference.Collin
May 23, 2012
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David Gibson:
ID has taken the position that if something is simple, it’s not designed – except for the exceptions! And if something is complex it IS designed – except for the exceptions!
This is a false description of ID, and I suspect you know it. Alternatively, you don't understand the design inference. First, ID has never taken the position that it is possible to identify that something was not designed. The major ID proponents have been very clear that ID is about detecting whether some things are designed. It has never been about being able to identify everything that is designed. Second, ID has never taken the position that complexity is sufficient to identify design. ID proponents have been clear that in addition to complexity there must be a specification. We can debate whether ID proponents have been able to identify specification criteria sufficient to conclude design, but it is clear that complexity is not sufficient. So, congratulations. In two sentences you managed to get two fundamental aspects of the design inference wrong.Eric Anderson
May 23, 2012
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Jerad- The evidence there were designers of Stonehenge is Stonehenge, ie the object they allegedly designed. Ya see that is how it goes- we start out with an object/ structure/ event and then try to figure out how it came to be. And according to Newton's four rules of scientific investigation we attempt to explain it using the fewest possible variables, with agency involvement being the last addition. That said, it is our knowledge of cause and effect relationships that drives investigations. If there was some natural, as opposed to artificial, explanation for Stonehenge, we would go with that. The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ' s Black Box: "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” He goes on to say: ” Might there be some as-yet-undiscovered natural process that would explain biochemical complexity? No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility. Nonetheless, we can say that if there is such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further, it would go against all human experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers.” You said something about predictions- just what prediction is borne from accumulations of random mutations? (natural selection and drift are two ways in which random mutations accumulate) How can we test the claim that any flagellum evolved via darwinian/ neo-darwinian processes?Joe
May 23, 2012
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