Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
---Green: "I believe we are determined. Yet I also believe that the bible teaches that we are morally responsible. I do not know how these two can be put together philosophically." Did it ever occur to you that the two positions cannot be reconciled at all and that one of them is, therefore, false and ought to be abandoned.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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---Green: "I have never once asked you to use your libertarian free will (aka acting for no reason) to change your behaviour." Your mistaken perception that libertarians act for no reason is just one more of the many atheist fantasies that you have bought into without questioning any of the assumptions behind it.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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---Green: "However, the agent-causationist cannot be allowed to say that agent-causation constitutes control because “it just does”. What kind of a response is this? I for one do not find this satisfying." What you do not understand is that free-choice agency or any other kind of unpredictable human cause, such as creative imagination, does not produce effects in the same way that physical causes produce effects. You are expecting free-will to behave exactly as a will would behave if it was not free. In effect, you are, like your atheist mentors, imposing deterministic expectations on free will acts and then acting surprised when your expectations do not pan out.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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KF RE 427 You know I love ya KF right? :) You know the last thing I want to do is to get sideways with you or StephenB. I too second your comments about StephenB in 432 and I put you in a class by yourself as well. Thanks for all you do. "Part of the problem is that we have not fully and fairly heard out the other, and have formed distorted views, which have then been handed down. Arminianism, here, is not Pelegianism,or a half-way house to it." What I meant when I said that Arminius rejected total depravity was that he rejected the reformers position regarding total depravity. I aplogize I should have made that clearer. Also I am not in the demonizing business and I have no interst in demonizing or distorting Arminius or Arminius's views. Whitfield heavily criticized Wesley's doctrine but when Wesley died Whitfield praised the man and stated that Wesleys light in heaven would shine gloriously for eternity ( my paraphrase):) I feel the same way towards Arminius. As it relates to total depravity Arminius’s view was that although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual hopelessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such away as not to interfere with mans freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Mans freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with Gods spirit and be regenerated or resist Gods grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirits assistance, but he does not need to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is mans act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinners gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation. For the Reformers total depravity meant that because of the fall man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore he will not, indeed he cannot choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirits assistance to bring a sinner to Christ, it take regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something contributes to salvation but it is itself a part of Gods gift of salvation. It is Gods gift to the sinner, not the sinners gift to God. As to Arminianism being semi pelagic. I think George Smeaton does a good job of connecting the semi pelagian nature of Arminianism. “ Augustines unanswerable polemic had so fully discredited Pelagianism in the field of argument, that it could no longer be plausible to the Christian mind. But a new system presented itself , teaching that man with his own natural powers is able to take the first step toward his conversion, and that this obtains or merit’s the Spirits assistance. Cassian was the founder of this middle way, which came to be called Semi Pelagianis, because it occupied intermediate ground between Pelagianism and Augustinianism, and took elements from both. He acknowledged that Adams sin extended to his posterity, and that human nature was corrupted by original sin. But, on the other hand, he held a system of universal grace for all men alike, making the final decision in the case of every individual dependent on the exercise of free will” Speaking of those who followed Cassian, Smeaton continues, “they held that the first movement of the will in the assent of faith must be ascribed to the natural powers of the human ind: “ it is mine to be willing to believe and it is the part of Gods grace to assist”. They asserted the sufficiency of Gods grace for all, and everyone , according to his own will , obeyed or rejected the invitation, while God equally wished and equally aided all men to be saved…the entire system thus formed a halfway house containing elements of error and elements of truth, and not at all differing from Arminianism ….” I am not expecting your agreement on this I am just justifying why I think Arminianism is semi pelagic. My best Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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---Green: "But it is very difficult to see how agent-causationists can justify the idea that agents are causal entities. This is because the cause in question is in no way explanatory." Free will choices cannot be reduced to the same kind of causality in which physical causes produce effects. Intelligent agents are not predictable in the same way and are not comparable. That is why all your arguments, which you cut and paste from the SEP, are irrelevant. Only secularist atheists expect the two kinds of relationship to be similar because they expect everything to behave in a law-like manner, which is precisely the way the free will does not act. ---"However, this option is not available for the agent-causationist, since their theory posits that agents ultimately act for no reason at all. You really do believe everything the atheists tell you, don't you? ---"In fact, O’Connor (a prominent agent-causationist) fairly explicitly states that agent-control simply is the relation between the agent and the effect, implying that no more explanatory work is needed." He is trying to tell you that agency cause does not work by way of the law-like regularity of physical cause and effect and cannot, therefore, be judged by that standard. That makes a lot more sense than anything your atheist mentors have been telling you. --However, the agent-causationist cannot be allowed to say that agent-causation constitutes control because “it just does”. What kind of a response is this? I for one do not find this satisfying." What you do not understand is that free-choice agency or any other kind of unpredictableStephenB
August 21, 2010
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And Romans 9.Green
August 21, 2010
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The process of mind-changing can be completely deterministic.
And just in case anyone is tempted to ask, 'then why do you blame someone if their mind is not changed?'... please re-read my post 433.Green
August 21, 2010
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StephenB:
You rebut your own arguments every time you ask me to use my free will to change my behavior.
I have never once asked you to use your libertarian free will (aka acting for no reason) to change your behaviour. And we've also been over the fact that there is nothing incoherent about a determinist presenting arguments, evidence, and urging someone to change their mind. The process of mind-changing can be completely deterministic.Green
August 21, 2010
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Kairosfocus:
Sorry, but unless we can actually choose, we cannot love [the root of virtue], and unless we can decide the direction of our lives, by being able to open up to the transforming grace of God, virtue is impossible.
If you mean "unless we actually have libertarian free will we cannot love" then Luther, Calvin, Edwards and Spurgeon, among others, would all disagree with you.Green
August 21, 2010
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Do you think I have a free choice in the matter? You contradict yourself with every post.
Talk about going round in circles. We've also been over this one several times too. I believe we are determined. Yet I also believe that the bible teaches that we are morally responsible. I do not know how these two can be put together philosophically. (Neither do you with your libertarianism and moral responsibility). However, since the bible teaches moral responsibility, I am justified in believing it. Hence I am justified in believing that you are morally responsible (in this case for being impervious to reason).Green
August 21, 2010
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---kairosfocus: "Sorry, but unless we can actually choose, we cannot love [the root of virtue], and unless we can decide the direction of our lives, by being able to open up to the transforming grace of God, virtue is impossible." Kf, you have summed things up nicely here. It is a very sad thing that so many modern writers, confused beyond belief, wield such influence on a younger generation who are not even on speaking terms with the best literature available. --"Freedom to choose, whatever influences may obtain, is a premise of responsibility and a ground for it." Yes, of course. Freedom cannot, in any way, be separated from responsibility. KF, I think I should take time out here to say something that many of us should have said long ago. You have provided so much knowledge and wisdom for this site that some of your readers are bound to take your high standard of argument for granted. It's called the "law of familiarity." When the recipients of a blessing receive it continually and faithfully, they begin to think of it as an everyday kind of thing, nothing to get excited about or celebrate. Yet your offerings are always well-reasoned, rigorous, fair, and as complete as could be expected on a forum such as this. I don't know of any other commentator who does a better job of integrating world-view perspectives with scientific principles. You are in a class by yourself.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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---Green: "You have in no way rebutted my argument." You rebut your own arguments every time you ask me to use my free will to change my behavior. I have suggested other writers that could help you out of your confusion, but you are not interested in exploring them.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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---Green: "Please stop using “free will” as a label to claim moral responsibility. Libertarian theories of free will do not produce the goods." Do you think I have a free choice in the matter? You contradict yourself with every post.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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Green: "but just out of interest, am I right on Luther’s position here? Did he think man had it in matters not pertaining to salvation?" I am no expert on Luther but I have read and reread "The Bondage of the WIll" I cannot concieve that Luther could ever be a libertarian in matters not pertaining to salvation. Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Green: Sorry, but unless we can actually choose, we cannot love [the root of virtue], and unless we can decide the direction of our lives, by being able to open up to the transforming grace of God, virtue is impossible. Freedom to choose, whatever influences may obtain, is a premise of responsibility and a ground for it. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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Vivid: No, Arminius actually assented to total depravity, from what I have seen; cf here. Observe the cite from Arminius himself on this:
"In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace." [Arminius, James The Writings of James Arminius (three vols.), tr. James Nichols and W.R. Bagnall (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1956), I:252]
And while plainly Arminius opposed what he viewed as Calvinist excesses, he and his followers also put Article III of their Remonstrances thusly:
Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Part of the problem is that we have not fully and fairly heard out the other, and have formed distorted views, which have then been handed down. Arminianism, here, is not Pelegianism,or a half-way house to it. Arminius' pivotal concept seems to have been prevenient grace as he understood it, which was NOT irresistible. The act of surrender to and receipt of grace has often been portrayed at popular level as a species of salvation by works. But, plainly, that one has power to accept or reject a gift that is a rescue is not in itself a WORK that merits the rescue, and act of mercy by a benefactor. And that he trap one was in is in significant part his/her own fault, removes the notion that one who repents and turns in surrender, is imagining himself to be earning God's favour. Just the opposite, one is admitting that one is seeking the loving mercy of God. And the scriptures are abundant and cumulatively clear enough on these issues. Sigh, this blog is not primarily theological but theological issues do come up when determinism is on the table in a context where various theologically tinged issues lurk. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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Please stop using "free will" as a label to claim moral responsibility. Libertarian theories of free will do not produce the goods.Green
August 21, 2010
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PS: Whether or no we wholly or largely agree with the survey here, we should interact with it; not least as a balance to much of the above in this thread.kairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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StephenB:
I said: As I feel like I’ve said a million times on this blog, libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility either.” You replied: Yes, I know that you have said it many times. I am sorry to have to say, though, that you have been incorrect each time.
Where have you shown me to be incorrect? That statement – to be quite blunt – is pure and unadulterated bald assertion. I will you show you why – for the umpteenth time – below.
I said: So we are in the same boat here: we only have biblical grounds for grounding moral responsibility: neither of us has philosophical grounds.” You replied: We are not in the same boat. Free will is reasonable; determinism is not. There can be no such thing as “moral responsibility” without free will. That should be clear. How can one be responsible for thoughts or behaviors that he cannot control?
WOW. WOW. WOW. I almost cannot believe I’m reading this! I am going to show you one more time why libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility (onlookers I am sorry for having to repeat this, for probably about the 8th time). Very explicitly: Moral responsibility requires: (1) The agent to be the source of the action / intention (2) The agent to be in control of the action / intention Agent causal libertarianiam cannot get you (2) for the following reasons (which I’ve copied and pasted almost directly from post 114): a) Causation and explanation One of the necessary conditions for agential control is agential causation. In other words, to be in control of an event, an agent must at the very least be a cause of it. But it is very difficult to see how agent-causationists can justify the idea that agents are causal entities. This is because the cause in question is in no way explanatory. I illustrated this with the thought experiment with ‘Joe’ in a previous post. Recall that in this thought experiment there was no reason whatsoever for why Joe chose A and not B. The idea that the cause of an event might fail to explain that event, however, seems incoherent. How can positing a specific cause for an effect not also explain that effect? One philosopher working in this field (Ginet) has argued that whilst he wouldn’t go so far as to say that the idea that a cause ought to explain its effect is self-evident, but he does say that its denial is highly puzzling, and it should not be accepted without sufficiently compelling reason. Agent-causationists are aware of this problem. However, their only response seems to be that it is not axiomatic that causation ought to follow explanation. That’s all well and good, but it’s hardly a compelling argument that establishes that agent’s cause their actions. (b) Causation and control Secondly, even if the causal power of an agent on the agent-causation view is granted, the agent-causation theory still faces serious objections. One of these is the fact that causation does not automatically constitute control, and it is control that the agent-causationist needs in a theory of agency. It is clearly not the case that wherever there is causation, there is agential control (e.g. look up ‘deviant causal chains’ on google). Control is not simply a matter of causation. Non-agent causationists (e.g. event-causationists) solve the problem by saying that control is i) causation PLUS ii) acting for conscious reasons. However, this option is not available for the agent-causationist, since their theory posits that agents ultimately act for no reason at all. Given that they cannot use ‘acting for reasons’ as an account of control, it seems that the agent-causationist is simply reduced to the bare assertion that control is exercised simply because the cause in question is an agent. In fact, O’Connor (a prominent agent-causationist) fairly explicitly states that agent-control simply is the relation between the agent and the effect, implying that no more explanatory work is needed. However, the agent-causationist cannot be allowed to say that agent-causation constitutes control because “it just does”. What kind of a response is this? I for one do not find this satisfying. So for reasons (a) and (b) agent-causal libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility because it cannot ground (2) – namely agential control. You have in no way rebutted my argument. Yet you still persist in making claims to the effect “free will grounds moral responsibility”. Well, no, clearly it doesn’t. NO-ONE (determinists or libertarians) have been able to ground moral responsibility.Green
August 21, 2010
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Onlookers: Green, sadly, has read into Edwards' general definition, his particular opinion. I think we need to keep idiosyncrasies out of generally understood terms as defined. We then may explore particular facets of the matter, and rationalise our views, without erecting strawmen. Of course, Edwards indeed seemed to have been a Calvinist, of what degree I am not sure. I infer that he held that the unregenerate will was in bondage to sin. A key point of contention is therefore whether there is a real choice we can make in response to the pull of Grace, or whether our decisions are impelled by forces beyond our control. I find the latter view in greater conflict with the Scriprures than the former, as well as with the fundamental premise of responsibility. But, my real heart concern lives at a different level. Without the real power of choice, love and the virtues that spring from love are meaningless. And that is decisive for me: for love to be real, it must be truly chosen, and love IS real -- think of a certain night of surrender, sweating blood, in a garden that so uncomfortably echoes another fateful garden. (And this is also BTW, IMHCO, pivotal to any sound answer to the problem of evils. Which issue is of course bound up deeply in the motivating context for Darwin's theory. Cf this summary on the Free Will Defense.) The determinists simply cannot be right. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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"I know that Edwards was not a libertarian – not by a long stretch. Which is why I did not choose that equivocal definition." Yeh Edwards was "GASP" a Calvinist. Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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"One point, on total depravity [which was held by Arminius!]" Actually Arminius denied total depravity thus the T in tulip. Arminius was a semi pelagian. Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Stephen: I saw your response when I was about to link this article from Catholic Encyclopedia. This excerpt is food for thought:
As employed in modern philosophy, the term has often a much wider signification. It is frequently used in a loose, generic sense as coextensive with appetite, and in such a way as to include any vital principle of movement ab intra, even those which are irrational and instinctive. Thus Bain makes appetency a species of volition, instead of vice-versa. We cannot but think this an abuse of terms. In any case--whatever opinion one holds on the free will controversy--some specific designation is certainly required for that controlling and sovereign faculty in man, which every sane philosophy recognizes as unmistakably distinct from the purely physical impulses and strivings, and from the sensuous desires and conations which are the expressions of our lower nature's needs. And custom has consecrated the term will to this more honourable use.
One point, on total depravity [which was held by Arminius!]: properly, it does not mean that all men are as bad as they could be, but that even at our best, we are still struggling with the taint of sin. So, we tend to stumble, as Paul did when struck at the order of the High Priest in his inquisition in Jerusalem. But, by God's grace which we must welcome and receive by the light we have, we have a real alternative, of growth towards the right. In Solomon's wise words:
Prov 4: 18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. 19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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Kairosfocus: You’re right, Jonathan Edwards did not define the will that way in his opening section. But I chose that definition because it was the clearest definition of what he actually means. The definition you gave is not clear: to me that could be consistent with either determinism or libertarianism. However, I know that Edwards was not a libertarian - not by a long stretch. Which is why I did not choose that equivocal definition.Green
August 21, 2010
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Thus, it is evident that Green has selected, not the actual focal definition of “will,” but instead, more like remarks on particular inclination or impulse at a given time, willing. KF I was the one who gave the definition to Green in response to a question he asked of me. It was my selection not Greens. Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Thank you, SB, for your comment, "There is no charm in a yes unless a no is possible." That's probably the most sensible thing stated in this entire thread.riddick
August 21, 2010
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---"StephenB: You said that on my view a person “will not be damned through voluntary fault”. Yes, that is clear. According to compatibilist/determinism, salvation turns on a fate that has already been decided. The fortunate soul who is saved just happened to be born lucky and the poor fool that is damned had nothing to say about it. ---"But please tell me: what grounds do you have for saying that someone is damned through voluntary fault?" One becomes damned by refusing to cooperate with God's grace, which is given in abundance. That refusal is done voluntarily; it is not forced, much less is it determined. Cooperation is possible only on the condition that it could have been withheld, and only a free will can give it or withhold it. There is no charm in a yes unless a no is possible. ---"As I feel like I’ve said a million times on this blog, libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility either." Yes, I know that you have said it many times. I am sorry to have to say, though, that you have been incorrect each time. --"So we are in the same boat here: we only have biblical grounds for grounding moral responsibility: neither of us has philosophical grounds." We are not in the same boat. Free will is reasonable; determinism is not. There can be no such thing as "moral responsibility" without free will. That should be clear. How can one be responsible for thoughts or behaviors that he cannot control? ---"Finally, this probably isn’t the place to get into a discussion on the merits of calvinism. I don’t know if I’d class myself as a calvinist, but I do think that the doctrine of total depravity seems biblical and fits with experience." Yes, totally depravity fits with determinism like a glove. On the other hand, the Bible is quite clear that no one has been determined for hell. Anyone who goes there, chooses it. --Timothy 2: 1-4: "God wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth." Clearly, that means that if someone is not saved, it wasn't God's idea. Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone or even most will follow God's will and cooperate with grace, but that decision is solely in their hands. They have a free will which allows them to accept or reject God's offer. ---"So a lot of what you said about how we can’t change our own spiritual destinies I’d agree with." Yes. According to compatibilism, your fate is sealed even before you enter the arena. That certainly makes a mockery of St. Paul's comment about finishing the race: "No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified”. It's not a done deal; its a drama ---"To be honest, I think that God has to initiate the salvation act, and that even our desire for his help is ultimately an act of grace, and has to come from him." I agree with this for the most part. God is clearly the initiator, and all we can do is respond positively or negatively. --"But again, I don’t think this is the place to get into a discussion of the merits (or not) of calvinism. So I’d rather not say any more on this." OK, but any discussion of free will is bound to cover that ground.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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Onlookers: First, let us look at Jonathan Edwards in the very first part of Freedom of the Will, where he does explicitly define "will":
IT may possibly be thought, that there is no great need of going about to define or describe the Will; this word being generally as well understood as any other words we can use to explain it: and so perhaps it would be, not philosophers, metaphysicians, and polemic divines, brought the matter into obscurity by the things they have said of it. But since it is so, I think it may be of some use, and will tend to greater clearness in The following discourse, to say a few things concerning it. And therefore I observe, that the Will (without any metaphysical refining) is, That by which the mind chooses any thing. The faculty of the will, is that power, or principle of mind, by which it is capable of choosing: an act of the will is the same as an act of choosing or choice. If any think it is a more perfect definition of the will, to say, that it is that by which the soul either chooses or refuse, I am content with it; though I think it enough to say, it is that by which the soul chooses: for in every act of will whatsoever, the mind chooses one thing rather than another; it chooses something rather than the contrary or rather than the want or non-existence of that thing . . .
Thus, it is evident that Green has selected, not the actual focal definition of "will," but instead, more like remarks on particular inclination or impulse at a given time, willing. That does not give a true and fair view of Edwards' actual definition, but it does give us an insight into Green's perspective:
In other words, one’s will just is one’s strongest inclination (be that a moral inclination or an immoral inclination). So defined this way, yes – one’s will is simply one of one’s own inner mental states.
That is he plainly sees us as under the control of impulses and desires, without effective power of choice. But in fact, to get there, he has provided an idiosyncratic definition of "will," not in terms of the capacity to choose or decide, but he particular inclination at a given time; presumably after decision has been made. (I find it significant that quite a number of sections in, I am unable to find the quotation used, i.e., it seems to be nowhere near the actual definition in the opening words.) Further to this, one's decision to will and attempt the right in the face of the temptation to the wrong, or inclination to the wrong in the teeth of known duty, cut clean across the account being given. While we struggle to do the right, and are so constituted that we frequently stumble, that by no means indicates that we are simply driven by our strongest impulses or particular states of mind. We can change our minds, we can exert the force of will and training in virtue to do duty -- I recall here a man of my acquaintance who having been invited "NOW" by a most attractive woman he had been involved with, wrenched himself from his strongest inclination for the good of his soul and hers -- and most of all we can open our hearts the power of the transcendent; as I have repeatedly cited from Rom 7 - 8, noting that it was autobiographical and is a common pattern of life. And so, it comes right back to the points I have made, and the yet lingering questions I have asked. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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molch: it's late, but I owe you a few brief comments: 1) In your resasoning, you seem to ignore that when we write (putting even Shakespeare in the lot) we are guided by our conscious representations of the meaning we want to express, and not only by grammatical rules or similar. Otherwise, this blog would be fulled of correct phrases which mean nothin, or of correct parts meaning simple and unrelated things. The meaning of Hamlet, what it says about human nature, the creation of the characters and the themes, all of that originated in S.'s consciousness. It could never have come out of grammar and syntax, however well programmed. Moreover, you could probably painfully derive a page of Hamlet by pre-existing phrases, sticking to gradual variations, but only if you were guided by the previous knowledge of the page you want to obtain. You are only recycling bad argument of the Weasel type, in a slightly different form. There is nothing true in them. 2) Regarding nylonase, you are wrong again: what you have to explain is the change in CSI, and not the total CSI of the molecule. And the change in CSI is small, and is not CSI in itself. IOW, while the pre-existing molecule (penicillinase) certanly exhibits CSI, the new molecule (nylonase) essentially exhibits the same CSI of the previous molecule (the specific sequence which allows the folding and the esterase activity associated with it). The change which brings to nylonase is a change of very few AAs (I don't remember how many now, but probably two). A two or three or four AAs change, which tweaks a pre-existing function at the level of the active site so that the esterase activity changes specific affinity for similar substrates, is not CSI: it can well be achieved by a random search. It's as simple as that. If darwinists made a sincere effort to understand properly the meaning of CSI, they would not be continuosly making bad arguments about it. 3) Regarding your post #395, I would say that you have summarized my position in a corrrect, even if somewhat incomplete, way. But, obviously, I deeply disagree with your strange statement that mine is a "religious conviction" and yours a "logically defendable philosophical conclusion". That's really superficial and arrogant. Mine is a philosophical and logically defendable conclusion at least as much as yours. The fact that your philosophy does not agree with mine is perfectly natural: various philosophies have rarely agreed one with the other. But that does not give you the right to decide what is a religious conviciton and what is logically defendable. You can check my posts: I have never made any reference to religion, or to any scripture, or to any authority, to defend my position. I have only "logically and cognitively defended it". You have all the rights to believe that I have done that badly, but my philosophical and logical arguments have at least the same right to exist and to be evaluated by all as yours.gpuccio
August 21, 2010
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Vivid: I know that Luther was certainly no libertarian when it came to matters pertaining to salvation. But I've heard William Lane Craig say on a padcast once that Luther did believe man had libertarian free will in matters that did not pertain to salvation. Now as you know, I think libertarianism in any form is philosophicaly incoherent, but just out of interest, am I right on Luther's position here? Did he think man had it in matters not pertaining to salvation?Green
August 21, 2010
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