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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
aiguy: in one of my previous posts I stated that I could give you the full ID inference using only the kind of empirical definitions that we have discussed in some detail. Even if you may still have problems with those definitions, I would like to show here that such a claim is not unfounded. Therefore, I will give a very quick outline of how that is done, so that, if you want, we may discuss any single point on which you like to have more details: 1) We start by observing that we, human beings, have a kind of experience that we call "conscious representations". We call that condition "being a conscious entity". 2) We observe that many of those representations have a cognitive content. We call those representations "conscious intelligent representations", and the condition being a "conscious intelligent entity". 3) We observe that conscious intelligent representations are often associated (I am not stating that they are necessarily the cause of) to the output of purposeful objects, to which the agent imparts some meaning or function. We call that kind of output "design", the process of the object creation "design process", the conscious intelligent representations "conscious intelligent representations associated to the design process", and the entity which performs the design process "conscious intelligent designer". We call the outputted object "designed object". It is important to notice that the designed object needs not have any special characteristics, other than being the result of the design process, which implies having receive some form of meaning or function from a conscious entity through a process associated to conscious intelligent representations, which obviously include the representation of that meaning or function. For the rest, it can be anything: simple or complex, analogical or digital, and so on. 4) The meaning or function represented by the designer in the process, and imparted to the designed object, we call "specification". The specification originates in the designer's representations (or, to be even more rigorous, is associated to them in the process of design. But, if the circumstances permit it, it can also be recognized in the object by another conscious intelligent being. Sometimes that cannot happen (for instance, I may not recognize a string of symbols if I do not know the symbolic code used by the designer). But if and when it happens, we call that "recognition of a specification by a conscious intelligent observer in an object". 5) Now the problem is: how do we know that an object is a designed object? 6) The general answer is easy: when we know for certain that it was designed, because we designed it ourselves, or we could witness the process of its design, or we have indirect evidence of that process. In that case, we say that the object is designed because we have observed, directly or indirectly, the process of its design. This is a simple fact, and not an inference. It does not require that the designed object have any special characteristics, other than being the output of an observable design process. 7) But what about objects for which we cannot have the information mentioned in the above point, but that we suppose may be designed? For them we must perform a procedure called "design detection", or "design inference". 8) The procedure starts by looking for some formal property of designed objects which empirically is specific for them (which is always associated only to designed objects, and never to non designed objects). We need a very high level of specificity for that inference. 9) We find such a property: it is CSI. Objects exhibit CSI when two conditions are satisfied: a) A specification can be recognized in the object explicitly and clearly by conscious intelligent observers. By "explicitly" I mean that the observers, after recognizing the specification, must also be able to clearly define it, and define how the presence of that specification can be objectively verified, and if possible quantitatively measured. If the object satisfies that, we call the object "specified object". b) The specification must be obtained through a high level of complexity in the object. Here, "complexity" has the usual meaning of Shannon entropy, or any equivalent definition. In general, it corresponds to Kolmogorov complexity (non compressible). We use some pre-defined threshold of complexity. If that threshold is satisfied, we call the object "complex". The complexity must obviously be connected to the specification. If our object satisfies both a) and b) we call it "complex specified object", and we say it exhibits CSI. 10) For all practical purposes, we can choose (I usually do that) to work with some subset of CSI which is easy to treat, provided that such a subset can be applied to the objects we are studying. The subset I usually refer to is dFSCI, which is any kind of CSI where: a) The specification is an observable, definable, and measurable function b) The complexity is in digital form From now on I will refer to dFSCI, and not to CSI in general. 11) We observe that dFSCI is a property which empirically is observed only in designed objects, and never in non designed objects. That is a completely empirical statement. There are also theorical reasons to affirm that in principle, and they are certainly an interesting part of the ID theory, but being theorical they are more questionable, and we will not use them here. 12) The above statement is always observed to be true, with the notable exception of a very special set of objects: biological objects. Many biological objects, more specifically all the genomes and proteomes, seem to exhibit dFSCI. As their origin is not known with certainly, we will for the moment put them apart, and we will not consider the an exception to the generally observed rule. 13) On the basis of our empirical observations in 11), we decide to use dFSCI as a tool for design detection. 14) We develop a rigorous procedure to verify if an observed object exhibits dFSCI. That is more or less the explanatory filter. We define the specification and ascertain its presence, we measure complexity, we rule out any known model based on necessity which could have originated that object. 15) If the object satisfies 14), we say that it exhibits dFSCI. 16) That empirically works perfectly: the procedure seems to exhibit 100% specificity. No exception is known to that detection rule. No single example of objects exhibiting dFSCI which are non designed is known. So, we affirm that design is the best explanation for objects exhibiting dFSCI. 17) On the contrary, the procedure is not good at all from the point of view of its sensitivity. There are a lot of false negatives. Any designed object which is simple will not be recognized by that method as designed. 18) We call the whole process "design detection". 19) So, to conclude, through the design detection process we can classify objects in different categories: a) Non specified and non complex objects: they are usually non designed. They can be designed, because recognition of specification is not always successful, and complexity is not needed for an object to be designed. For this class, design can only be affirmed if the design process has been directly or indirectly observed. b) Specified non complex objects: These are often designed, but again we cannot be sure of that unless the design process has been directly or indirectly observed. c) Non specified complex objects: these are very common, and are usually non designed. In ID we know very well that complexity is easy to find, and that it does not imply design at all. Still, some of these objects could still be designed, if they exhibit a specification but we failed to recognize it. d) Specified complex objects: we can affirm, on the basis of empirical experience, that they are always designed. The above summary tries to clarify with some rigour what design detection is. As you can see, I have not even started to apply that system of thought to biological information. I am ready to discuss in detail any part of it, if you or others want to do that. I affirm that the above model of thought is completely empirical and scientific, and that it needs not special theory of anything, out of what is usually accepted in scientific reasoning.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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---aiguy: "In any event, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge (as I already have) that you have a version of ID theory that is not predicated on the truth of dualism. So let’s move forward and accept your version of ID in our debate." Why should I move forward with you to discuss theories and opinions when I can't even get you to acknowledge a fact. ---"You seem to think that there is one, single, genuine, canonical version of ID that everybody adheres to, but I’m not aware that such a version exists." No, I have not indicated anything like that. ---"I have lately been taking Stephen Meyer’s comments to be generally representative of ID theory, but there are people here who disagree with what Meyer says (in particular, that Meyer identifies a “conscious being” as the cause of the first living cell). Green here appears to be an ID proponent who disagrees with you as well." Meyer's conclusion comes after the facts in evidence have been considered, it is not an operating assumption that precedes the investigation, which is the mistaken point that you are tying to peddle. I am happy that you are making the rounds with other ID bloggers, however, no one that I know of has ever indicated that they think ID depends on dualistic metaphysics. So, you are chasing the wind on that count. If, indeed, ID did assume metaphysical dualism, then an inference to design would not be a inference at all but rather a trivial tautology. To assume a conscious designer prior to the investigation is to smuggle the conclusion into the hypothesis. So, whatever you are reading in to the comments of other ID bloggers, it can't be that ID depends on metaphysical dualism. In keeping with that point, if I can't get you to understand basic ID, I am certainlly not interested in discussing advanced ID with you.StephenB
August 19, 2010
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"FCSI was in operation on this planet long before humans existed. We came along and noticed it later." UB Excellent empirical observation Vividvividbleau
August 19, 2010
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Aig @282
The issue I’m concerned with here is what distinguishes “actual design” from “apparent design”.
And what do you think that is?
Gpuccio was forthcoming enough to state outright that ID proposes a “conscious entity” as the cause of biological systems. This is also the position of Stephen Meyer. Is this your position as well?
And GP is more than welcome to make an inference to consciousness. I agree with him on the point. Just like I agree with others who have argued that it entails foresight. Abel refers to it as volitional agency. I myself argued it under the banner of intelligence. Your response was to immediately pack on physicality - since we know of no conscious intelligent foresighted agent that does not also have physicality. You might as well add in hair color and a neural response to the taste of fat, correct? If not, then why not?
You are being very coy about this “singular source”, but I’ll hazard a guess at this point… you are talking about human beings. Is that right?
No, I am talking about intelligent agency. And as I have already noted you may add volition, foresight, and consciousness as well. If it suits you, you are even free to make up your own word and provide a definition. Have you ever heard of Karl Popper?
Now, you can generalize your findings and say this “single source” is “living things” or that it is “complex organisms” or that it is “intelligent agency” or that it is “things with brains” and so on… but in terms of our actual observations, this “source” is human beings. Whatever else is true of human beings, it is human beings that you are talking about, and nothing else.
FCSI was in operation on this planet long before humans existed. We came along and noticed it later.
I will repeat what you just said: In its primary formulation, ID does not posit any attribute to the designer other than the ability to create the patterns we observe. In that case, ID is saying the following: The patterns we observe were caused to exist by the ability to create the patterns we observe. Read that again, UB. According to your definition, the theory of Intelligent Design says absolutely nothing!
It may not have occurred to you, but I was not giving a definition of ID. Your reformulation was purely rhetorical (and meaningless).
In order for ID to have any content at all, it actually must say something about the cause of these patterns besides that it is able to cause these patterns.
It does. The first is that the “I” in Intelligent Design stands for “intelligent”. You have been repeatedly given attributes that are the causal factors that lead to CSI but you refuse them all. Let’s add it up: You’ve been told intelligence – “no good, we know nothing of what constitutes intelligence”. You’ve been told volition – “no good, we have no idea what intentionality is”. You’ve been told foresight – “no good, we have no way to measure foresight”. You’ve been told purpose, “no good, we have no idea what does and does not have purpose”. You’ve been told consciousness – “no good, we have no idea how consciousness works.” Isn’t that about the heart of the matter? By the way, since we have no operational definition of Life, should biology class be called off until we do? If not, why not? And also, since there are philosophers who debate over the meaning of many words we use constantly, how can we use these words without confusion? What is the answer to that question?
What???? You just got through saying that ID does not posit any attribute to the designer other than the ability to create the patterns we observe.
Are you saying that I may not add an adjective to my comment, or are you saying “WOW I have a new concept to obfuscate?” Lets us be honest here, you are not searching for clarity, only tools.
Ok, now we can talk about what you mean by “purposefully”. Do you think that something can be purposeful without being consciously aware of it?
Cha-ching.
If so, then I’m not sure what you mean by “purposeful”. If not, then wouldn’t you say you are also claiming that the cause of these observed patterns was also conscious?
I never said differently, but here is what I have said: “Living things operate from a semiotic (correlated) mapping of chemical structures in the abstract (within DNA), to other chemical structures which result from that abstraction after it is transcribed by cellular machinery (resulting in proteins and regulatory networks, etc). This is the “FSC” part of the information transcribed by the cell. FSCI is a subset of information. Beyond whatever more strict definitions it may have, it certainly has semantic meaning, and is not simply random noise, nor is it an object of chemical necessity.” To which you responded: “The problem of intentionality (how symbols mean things) is a difficult and contentious area of philosophy.” To which I responded “Yet the mapping to which I am referring to is hardly a philosophical question. It is entirely observable; in fact, our entire understanding of biochemistry surrounds it being elucidated.” And you responded with: zilch
The only things we have experience of to which we attribute consciousness are complex, FSCI-rich life forms (viz. human beings and perhaps some other animals). Do you claim we have experience of any other sort of conscious agent?
This comment has no meaningful connection to the comment it was purporting to respond to.
Since it makes no sense to say human beings caused the first life, then ID must not actually be offering a known cause at all. Instead, ID is speculating that there is a very different sort of entity that exists – one which is not itself a complex life form but still somehow has the mental and physical abilities that life forms have.
No one has suggested that the physicality of a life form is a mark of intelligence.
This is very far outside of our experience. In my experience everything that I think is conscious (or intelligent) is a complex living thing.
How do you know if something is intelligent?
See? Nobody ever infers “intelligent agency” as the cause of anything, UB. Never. We infer specific sorts of living things. The watch was built by a human being. The hive was built by bees. The dam was built by beavers. The mound was built by termites. The nest was built by a bird. The web was built by a spider.
And you see absolutely no pattern running through your list of artifacts beyond the fact they are all the product of living things? What could it be? What if you noticed that none of them could exist without purpose, intentionality, and foresight? What if you noticed that none of them could be the product of unguided natural forces? Let us say that a new artifact comes in question that exhibits these same qualities, but its origin is a mystery. Are you going to say “we don’t know” before of after you recognize what you do know? Can you offer any credible answers to these questions?Upright BiPed
August 19, 2010
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StephenB,
I am doing more than denying that ID methods are predicated on dualism, I am stating, as fact, that they are not–a fact that can be verified very easily. Since you have not yet acknowledged that fact, it seems that I have more work to do. Do you acknowledge it?
Well, StephenB, I've already said that different people have different ideas about what ID theory says, what it entails, and what it assumes. You seem to think that there is one, single, genuine, canonical version of ID that everybody adheres to, but I'm not aware that such a version exists. I have lately been taking Stephen Meyer's comments to be generally representative of ID theory, but there are people here who disagree with what Meyer says (in particular, that Meyer identifies a "conscious being" as the cause of the first living cell). Green here appears to be an ID proponent who disagrees with you as well. In any event, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge (as I already have) that you have a version of ID theory that is not predicated on the truth of dualism. So let's move forward and accept your version of ID in our debate. Now, please tell me: Since ID theory is not predicated upon dualism, "intelligence" may refer to a causal, libertarian, disembodied consciousness, or it may refer to nothing but physical cause. So I ask again: How does ID distinguish “intelligence” from all other types of cause in the universe? Once you tell me how intelligent cause is distinguished from unintelligent cause in a way that we can empirically test, we can talk about how this test can be applied in the context of ID.aiguy
August 19, 2010
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---aiguy: "I understand you are denything that ID is predicated on dualism. Fine. I am doing more than denying that ID methods are predicated on dualism, I am stating, as fact, that they are not--a fact that can be verified very easily. Since you have not yet acknowledged that fact, it seems that I have more work to do. Do you acknowledge it? .StephenB
August 19, 2010
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AIG, 274:
If you would like to refer the cause you propose for FSCI as “directed contingency”, that’s OK, but I don’t know what you mean by that. Do you mean, as Stephen Meyer does, a conscious entity? If so, then we disagree about the warrant for that conclusion. If that is not what you mean, then the term doesn’t mean anything at all to me, but I’m not interested in pursuing it.
First, as already pointed out, we have been using "design" in a specific context; so when you introduced a different one, I corrected that what you were choosing to term "design," has an established adequate descriptive term in this context. That is not a matter of my idiosyncrasy, it is a matter of clarity. Now, I see you trying to suddenly suggest that directed contingency is not a clear term. This, after many, many examples in point have been given, and where to post a comment -- event the above -- YOU gave [purposeful!]direction to the possible contingencies of ASCII text strings, creating a message in English in response more or less to a context. Directed contingency, as has been described and exemplified many many times, is about just that: especially, text strings that are:
(i) not random: eqwg3ogoqag . . ., or (ii) restricted to a specific orderly repeating pattern:atatata . . ., but: (iii) text in a directed pattern that functions (per observation) in a context.
Such strings routinely appear in language contexts, and in computer programs. You either know this, or should know this. Pardon me, long since. (You may wish to look at Trevors and Abel here on the subject of string patterns; esp cf. Fig 4 as pointed out previously.) However, the point of the sudden question comes in your onward remarks: you unfortunately have a persistent rhetorical agenda to infer and project that the design inference is about assuming a dualist philosophical position a priori, and from that to dismiss the design inference. You have repeatedly been corrected on the point,in details [including for instance how earlier today I again pointed out where the design inference from reliable sign to signified causal process based on directed contingency, is an inductive inference to best explanation] but keep going back to it. That is what you need to explain, why you keep resorting to a strawman caricature of design thought, regardless of how many times it is corrected. That suggests a fixed controlling notion -- one premised on a SLANDER, BTW [kindly cf the UD Weak Argument Correctives] -- and the attempted rhetoric of "gotcha." So, first, no: design as used in design theory is about the observed causal process of directed contingency that often -- and that is a matter of massive experience including your own as a designing intelligence -- creates functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. And, as was yet again pointed out today, such inference from empirically reliable sign to signified causal process of directed contingency AKA design is an INDUCTIVE exercise on inference to best explanation per reliable and routine observation of the design process in action and its results. Now, if you wish to reject Mr Meyer's observation that the directed contingency process of causation that we routinely see creating dFSCI -- and that is the particular kind of complex specified information he is dealing with and we are dealing with -- is in our general experience empirically associated with the work of conscious intelligent designers, you are welcome to produce an empirical counter example. Just as design thinkers have put on the table for years and years now as a decisive test and potential falsification. When we do not see such examples coming forth, but instead rhetorical tactics that try to embroil and entangle us in debates on worldview level assumptions [even putting definitions in our mouths that do not belong there],that says loud and clear: strawman fallacy. That is telling. Sorry, kindly provide well-warranted empirical counter-evidence, or concede that the inductive inference from dFSCI to its consistently observed cause, directed contingency aka DESIGN, is a well-warranted one. I will go further than that. Actually, the evidence and inductive inference from signs to directed contingency as causal process, leads to the inference that C-chemistry cell based life is designed. A similar inference on the significance of a complex, finetuned cosmos to support such life, points onward to ultimate design of the observed cosmos by an extra-cosmic intelligence that is credibly immaterial [matter cannot credibly be the necessary being, on heat death grounds] and a necessary being. That suggests that transcendental Mind is a reality, i.e. that on empirical evidence and inductive inferences connected thereto, dualism is a reasonable -- as opposed to irrational or ill-informed -- worldview. Even, theism is a reasonable worldview in that context. And the recoiling in horror -- real or histrionic -- of the a priori evolutionary materialist magisterium that has recently tried to redefine science as applied materialism moves me and a lot of others not one bit on that. All it shows is their ideological worldview level question-begging closed-mindedness, frankly. (Remember, I cut my intellectual eye-teeth on Marxists.) Pardon me if I sound a bit plain-spoken, but you must realise that after unresponsiveness in the face of literally dozens of attempts at correction, little alternative is left. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 19, 2010
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---Green: "“Self-determined free will” – well I’m not sure how you defined that earlier, but if you mean libertarian free will (i.e. the ability to choose otherwise in an unconditional sense), then I have no obligation to believe it because I don’t think Scripture affirms it." I could provide a hundred examples where the Scripture advances the argument that the will is free. I will just provide ten. ---"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. [That means that one has the power to choose either life or death] ---"If you love Me, keep My commandments. ---"The power of life and death is in the tongue." We can choose life or death by the way we use our words] [That means that love is a choice and one can either consent or refuse.] "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. [The decision to abide is a free choice and is not determined] .."but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. [Good behavior is rewarded. Rewards make no sense from a deterministic framework. Why reward anyone for something that they cannot control?] ---"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown." [Some may choose to quit or choose not to quit] Also, [to be "temperate" is to choose the golden mean between two opposite extremes. That requires the capacity to resist one's desires rather than act on them. ---"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and [before] Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep [this] commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing." [Why urge anyone to do anything if they cannot make choices that will affect their destiny. How can someone be blamed or be blameless without the capacity to choose good and the capacity to choose evil] --"Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work." [If one can choose to cleanse himself and prepare, and one can also choose to not cleanse himself and not prepare.] ---“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of the virgins were foolish, and five were wise." [The wise virgins made the right choice; the foolish virgins made the wrong choice.] ---"Depart from me, ye cursed" [They are cursed because they made a conscious choice to refuse love when they could have made another choice]StephenB
August 19, 2010
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StephenB,
AIGUY: “First of all, I am not the one alluding to this mysterious something that guides nature, directs contingencies, and enables processes to “see”.” SB: First things first. You began this discussion by making a claim that was, in fact, wrong. ID science does not depend on dualistic metaphysics in any way.
I think it does, but it's hard to tell because so many ID proponents have so many different ideas about what ID says.
There is no way to extract metaphysical speculations from “specified complexity” or “irreducible complexity.” Do you, or do you not, acknowledge your error. Once that point is settled, we can move forward. If not, then I need to spend more time on the point until you get it.
I understand you are denything that ID is predicated on dualism. Fine. In that case, you believe that intelligence may (or may not) be another word for physical cause. If that is the case, and dualism is false, how does ID distinguish "intelligence" from all other types of cause in the universe? Once you tell me how intelligent cause is distinguished from unintelligent cause in a way that we can empirically test, we can talk about how this test can be applied in the context of ID.aiguy
August 19, 2010
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gpuccio,
aiguy: 1) The cause of FSCI in the first organisms was a conscious entity 2) This entity was not itself an FSCI-rich organism 3) Consciousness is a causal factor in the universe and exists independently of living bodies Gpuccio: Well, personally I would entail those things. but from a stocy ID point of view, I would say: 1) is true, but incomplete: the cause of new FSCI in all organisms is one (or more) conscious entity. ID is not only about OOL, but also about evolution of life.
Right - that's what I meant too.
2) is true only if the designer is (directly) a spiritual god. That is really not the only possibility, although it is certainly the simplest one.
Either (2) is true the way I put it, or ID fails to explain the origin of the first FSCI-rich organisms. Correct?
3) is certainly true for the first part. The second part depends: it is true for a spiritual god, not necessarily for any other agent.
Likewise, either (3) is true the way I put it, or ID is merely saying that life on Earth came from life elsewhere (either by engineering or by biological reproduction).aiguy
August 19, 2010
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UB,
I’m not certain what planet you are living on, but on this planet the observed “complex patterns, form, and function” are only allowed to be labeled as “apparent design” by the tribal power of an academic edict. These patterns cannot under ANY circumstances be the result of an actual design.
The issue I'm concerned with here is what distinguishes "actual design" from "apparent design". Gpuccio was forthcoming enough to state outright that ID proposes a "conscious entity" as the cause of biological systems. This is also the position of Stephen Meyer. Is this your position as well?
Now I can answer you. My response is that you are completely correct, insofar as we don’t need to detect complex patterns, form, and function. What we need are explanations that are actually suited to explain the patterns we see driving biology. SOME of these patterns have a singular entry into our knowledge of causes. We don’t find, and have not found, multiple reasons for SOME patterns to exist. When we see them, they ALWAYS come from a singular source. Moreover, we have studied them relentlessly from a variety of disciplines, and we understand the characteristics surrounding them, and we understand why they come from a singular source.
You are being very coy about this "singular source", but I'll hazard a guess at this point... you are talking about human beings. Is that right? Now, you can generalize your findings and say this "single source" is "living things" or that it is "complex organisms" or that it is "intelligent agency" or that it is "things with brains" and so on... but in terms of our actual observations, this "source" is human beings. Whatever else is true of human beings, it is human beings that you are talking about, and nothing else.
AIGUY: What I really argue with is not the hypothesis per se, but rather the claim that ID offers a cause known to our experience (which it doesn’t). Maybe some conscious agent created life, and maybe not. But we have no experience of conscious agents that are not themselves complex life forms… UB: Full stop. In its primary formulation, ID does not posit any attribute to the designer other than the ability to create the patterns we observe.
I will repeat what you just said: In its primary formulation, ID does not posit any attribute to the designer other than the ability to create the patterns we observe. In that case, ID is saying the following: The patterns we observe were caused to exist by the ability to create the patterns we observe. Read that again, UB. According to your definition, the theory of Intelligent Design says absolutely nothing! It is like saying you have a theory that explains sunspots: Sunspots are caused by that which creates sunspots. Or a theory that explains protein folding: Protein folding is caused by that which can fold proteins. Hopefully you will join the rest of us in agreeing that these sorts of theories are no more than tautologies, and do not actually say anything that adds to our understanding of anything. In order for ID to have any content at all, it actually must say something about the cause of these patterns besides that it is able to cause these patterns.
The reasons for this are appropriate to the evidence – because the patterns are all that is accessible to us. Anything beyond that may be interesting, but it does nothing to change the fact that the patterns exhibit the signature of purposeful design (the central ID thesis).
What???? You just got through saying that ID does not posit any attribute to the designer other than the ability to create the patterns we observe. But now, all of a sudden, you are making a completely different claim!!! Now you are saying that the cause of these patterns is purposeful! That's just fine, of course - you can make any claim you'd like to make. But if you keep changing your mind our debates will simply go around in circles. So now your statement should read as follows: The patterns we observe were caused to exist by the ability to create the patterns we observe, and that the patterns were created purposefully. Ok, now we can talk about what you mean by "purposefully". Do you think that something can be purposeful without being consciously aware of it? If so, then I'm not sure what you mean by "purposeful". If not, then wouldn't you say you are also claiming that the cause of these observed patterns was also conscious?
Since you are obviously not suggesting we have no experience with conscious agents, you are left to repeatedly insist that that we have no experience with conscious agents who also happen to create life on planets like earth?
The only things we have experience of to which we attribute consciousness are complex, FSCI-rich life forms (viz. human beings and perhaps some other animals). Do you claim we have experience of any other sort of conscious agent?
For you, this means that we have no reason to suggest we have any experience with what causes the patterns we observe in biology BECAUSE we observe them in biology.
For me, this means that if ID posits a known type of cause for the patterns we observe in biology, and it also posits something conscious, then it must be talking about the only known type of cause that is conscious and can create similar patterns, which would be human beings. Since it makes no sense to say human beings caused the first life, then ID must not actually be offering a known cause at all. Instead, ID is speculating that there is a very different sort of entity that exists - one which is not itself a complex life form but still somehow has the mental and physical abilities that life forms have. This is very far outside of our experience. In my experience everything that I think is conscious (or intelligent) is a complex living thing. Have you ever seen anything which you think is intelligent or conscious that wasn't a complex living thing?
Honestly Aiguy, it’s hard to imagine such an illogical position being taken by what is an otherwise intelligent person. Where else does such an assessment come into play? Thank goodness you are not a fire investigator or in another such discipline. Defense attorneys would love you. To hell with the evidence, you want the prosecution to request that the Judge recant himself on the basis he didn’t personally witness the crime.
This is funny. Imagine I was a fire investigator and I reported that I had figured out what was responsible for a fire: AIGUY: I have decided that this fire was set by something that was intelligent, but it wasn't a living thing. CHIEF: WHAT? Have you lost your mind? Are you talking about a ghost? A spirit? A poltergeist? A demon? A god? AIGUY: I won't say. I know it wasn't human, but I know it was conscious! CHIEF: Fires are set by human beings, AIGUY - not by disembodied consciousness. AIGUY: What? You closed-minded ideologue! What about my academic freedom as a fire investigator! CHIEF: You're fired. See? Nobody ever infers "intelligent agency" as the cause of anything, UB. Never. We infer specific sorts of living things. The watch was built by a human being. The hive was built by bees. The dam was built by beavers. The mound was built by termites. The nest was built by a bird. The web was built by a spider. We have no experience with anything that isn't a living thing that still builds these sorts of things. If you would like to imagine some other type of thing that could have caused first life, then you are hypothesizing something that nobody has ever seen.
Your desperate need to criticize ID extracts a heavy toll my friend. When you say ID is wrong, you are also saying that Darwin was wrong, Sagan was wrong, Monod was wrong, Dawkins is wrong, Mayer is wrong, the NCSE is wrong, all materialists are wrong along with every biology department with standard issue textbooks throughout the world.
Wow, you seem upset. Relax. I'm not desparate, and you shouldn't be either. Anway, I'm not saying these folks are wrong at all. None of them think that ID is science either, so as far as that goes I'm in complete agreement with all of them.aiguy
August 19, 2010
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---aiguy: "First of all, I am not the one alluding to this mysterious something that guides nature, directs contingencies, and enables processes to “see”." First things first. You began this discussion by making a claim that was, in fact, wrong. ID science does not depend on dualistic metaphysics in any way. There is no way to extract metaphysical speculations from "specified complexity" or "irreducible complexity." Do you, or do you not, acknowledge your error. Once that point is settled, we can move forward. If not, then I need to spend more time on the point until you get it.StephenB
August 19, 2010
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aiguy: Well, personally I would entail those things. but from a stocy ID point of view, I would say: 1) is true, but incomplete: the cause of new FSCI in all organisms is one (or more) conscious entity. ID is not only about OOL, but also about evolution of life. 2) is true only if the designer is (directly) a spiritual god. That is really not the only possibility, although it is certainly the simplest one. 3) is certainly true for the first part. The second part depends: it is true for a spiritual god, not necessarily for any other agent. For instance, there could be in reality agents who have bodies which don't correspond to our concept of physical body. I am not sponsoring the idea, just saying that we must really be open to all possibilities. From a philosophical point of view, I would say that only God exists independently of a living body. But my personal opinion is that we must stick to the scientific method: 1)first detect the formal characteristics that allow to infer design (CSI); 2) then verify the presence of CSI in biological information, and falsify all present alternative theories about a non conscious origin of that biological information; 3)then infer a designer as the origin of biological information and build a design theory for that; 4) finally, try to build theories about the other important aspects: the nature of the designer, the modalities of implementation of the design, the characteristic of the design,and so on. But all these things must be done in a strictly empirical way, starting from facts and good reasoning, and without any ideological prejudice.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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AIG, #239
I think everybody agrees that we see designs (i.e. complex patterns, form and function) in biology. So we don’t need to “detect” that.
I’m not certain what planet you are living on, but on this planet the observed “complex patterns, form, and function” are only allowed to be labeled as “apparent design" by the tribal power of an academic edict. These patterns cannot under ANY circumstances be the result of an actual design. Indeed, if you utter such heretical ideas, your university will erect a splash page in front of your department’s website so that they may (at the very least) malign you (if that is, they have been unfortunate as to not be able to run you off). The others are simply maligned and run off. Of course, the net effect is to keep your mouth shut within the high walls of academic freedom. So for you to say with such ease “Ah Design, of course Design...” is divorced from reality. Not only that, it is a careless insult to those who have put their reputations and livelihood on the line in order to voice an educated opinion about their own professional disciplines. So now that we are clear as to which sides we are arguing from, let’s back up and put into play the reality of the situation:
I think everybody agrees that we see [apparent] designs (i.e. complex patterns, form and function) in biology. So we don’t need to “detect” that.
Now I can answer you. My response is that you are completely correct, insofar as we don’t need to detect complex patterns, form, and function. What we need are explanations that are actually suited to explain the patterns we see driving biology. SOME of these patterns have a singular entry into our knowledge of causes. We don’t find, and have not found, multiple reasons for SOME patterns to exist. When we see them, they ALWAYS come from a singular source. Moreover, we have studied them relentlessly from a variety of disciplines, and we understand the characteristics surrounding them, and we understand why they come from a singular source. Therefore, ID has a very narrow thesis which is causally adequate to the observable evidence. Our opponents on the other hand, arguing that design is only apparent design, have an explanation that is not casually adequate by any stretch of the imagination, or should I say, is only adequate by nothing more than a stretch of the imagination. Knowing this very well, your response so far is to not argue against the actual merits of ID, but to instead tie some garnish to it, so that you may argue against that instead. My job is to point this out each and every time you do it.
What I really argue with is not the hypothesis per se, but rather the claim that ID offers a cause known to our experience (which it doesn’t). Maybe some conscious agent created life, and maybe not. But we have no experience of conscious agents that are not themselves complex life forms...
Full stop. In its primary formulation, ID does not posit any attribute to the designer other than the ability to create the patterns we observe. The reasons for this are appropriate to the evidence - because the patterns are all that is accessible to us. Anything beyond that may be interesting, but it does nothing to change the fact that the patterns exhibit the signature of purposeful design (the central ID thesis). Since you are obviously not suggesting we have no experience with conscious agents, you are left to repeatedly insist that that we have no experience with conscious agents who also happen to create life on planets like earth? For you, this means that we have no reason to suggest we have any experience with what causes the patterns we observe in biology BECAUSE we observe them in biology. The fact that we find these patterns in biology has no bearing on the validity of our observations. We know the source of these patterns in each and every other domain in which they have been discovered. Our inference is as valid as it could possibly be. Honestly Aiguy, it’s hard to imagine such an illogical position being taken by what is an otherwise intelligent person. Where else does such an assessment come into play? Thank goodness you are not a fire investigator or in another such discipline. Defense attorneys would love you. To hell with the evidence, you want the prosecution to request that the Judge recant himself on the basis he didn't personally witness the crime. If we follow your rationale to it ultimate end, we can only offer an opinion about the origin of life on this planet if we first A) observe an agent starting life on other such planets, or B) witness life starting on its own accord. Your desperate need to criticize ID extracts a heavy toll my friend. When you say ID is wrong, you are also saying that Darwin was wrong, Sagan was wrong, Monod was wrong, Dawkins is wrong, Mayer is wrong, the NCSE is wrong, all materialists are wrong along with every biology department with standard issue textbooks throughout the world. Is that your position? If it is - and it must be for the reasons you’ve argued here - then please tell me one thing. Make a case why anyone interested in origins should care to follow your ideas. They end before they begin.Upright BiPed
August 19, 2010
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gpuccio,
Just to be clear: for ID, the origin of biological information (and of any kind of CSI) is a conscious intelligent agent
Thank you very much! I do appreciate your clarity. ID advocates seem to equivocate on this point (UB, GF, StephenB, etc) but I don't see any other way to make of sense of ID's claims aside from assuming that ID is proposing: 1) The cause of FSCI in the first organisms was a conscious entity 2) This entity was not itself an FSCI-rich organism 3) Consciousness is a causal factor in the universe and exists independently of living bodies Do you agree that ID entails these things?aiguy
August 19, 2010
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aiguy: Just to be clear: for ID, the origin of biological information (and of any kind of CSI) is a conscious intelligent agent.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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StephenB,
AIGUY: If this were true, then I believe you could have actually answered my specific questions. But you didn’t, so I’ll ask again: In ID’s view, what is it that directs “directed contingency”? What is it that guides nature when nature is not “unguided”? What is it that allows processes to “see” when they arenot “blind.”processes”? STEPHENB: What do you mean, “if it is true.” ID doesn’t depend on dualism, period. There is no “if” to it. Methods are methods, and the ID method does not base its methods on dualistic metaphysics. It bases its methods on obervations of facts in evidence. Concerning the follow up questions, I gather that many ID theorists would say that a designed program directs the kind of directed contingency that you seem to be alluding to
First of all, I am not the one alluding to this mysterious something that guides nature, directs contingencies, and enables processes to "see". These are the words used with great frequency by ID advocates themselves. It is quite right for me to ask what it is ID is proposing as the explanation of complex form and function. Saying that "blind processes" and "unguided nature" can't produce FSCI is one thing; saying what sort of process is not "blind", and saying what sort of nature is "guided", is quite another. So you finally provide an answer, which is "designed program". I have no idea what this is supposed to mean! ID proposes that FSCI in biology is the result of "directed contingency", and when I ask what is supposed to be directing these contingencies the answer is a "designed program". What does the "designed program" mean here? Does it have anything to do with conscious thought or not?aiguy
August 19, 2010
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aiguy: Me too. Thank you.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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KF,
I think everybody agrees that we see designs (i.e. complex patterns, form and function) in biology. So we don’t need to “detect” that. Rather, we’d like to figure out where these designs came from. Here you are redefining the term design from what it means in the context of our discussion. We already have a cluster of terms that describe and specify what we see in biology and int eh technological and literary worlds for that matter: digitally coded, functionally specific, complex information and related organisation. Design — directed contingency — is the routinely and reliably observed causal explanation of dFSCI.
If you would like to refer to what we see in biological systems as FSCI instead of "designs", that's fine. I don't care what words we use as long as we agree on definitions. If you would like to refer the cause you propose for FSCI as "directed contingency", that's OK, but I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean, as Stephen Meyer does, a conscious entity? If so, then we disagree about the warrant for that conclusion. If that is not what you mean, then the term doesn't mean anything at all to me, but I'm not interested in pursuing it.aiguy
August 19, 2010
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molch (263): And no offence taken at all! I am fine with your concepts in 263 (I would state some things a little bit differently, but surely it's not worthwhile to deal with minor points here).gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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gpuccio, Thank you for your comments. I think we've clarified our differences.aiguy
August 19, 2010
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Green (#267): Thank you for the precisation. I appreciate it.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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Mark: No I am afraid we cannot agree that. As far I can see the only difference between your concept of free will and mine is that you assert it is different – but without saying how. There is no definable difference in the behaviour resulting from your free will than from mine. I don't want to fight with you about that. But I never said that there were definable differences in the behaviour. I said: "I think we can agree that the free will of compatibilists is a completely different concept form the free will of “libertarians” like myself." (emphasis added) Since when is a difference in concepts a difference in observable behaviour? For instance, just using Green's terminology, we libertarian believe in PAP and incorporate PAP in our concept of free will, while you compatibilists don't. That's a difference, IMO. Or do you believe in PAP?gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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aiguy (#225): “Dualism” here refers to mind/body dualism; Our scientific ontology is in fact more diverse than that, as we have four fundamental forces plus matter/energy, and now perhaps dark matter/energy too! I’m not unsympathetic to mind/body dualism, and I think it really is the only way ID makes sense. I think we have no way (yet) to empirically resolve the issue, however, so this means ID remains predicated on untestable claims regarding the nature of mind. There is some confusion here. I agree that we have no final solution about mind body dualism. That does not mean that we don't observe mind and body as two different contexts. That's enough for me. If any theory of mind and consiousness is unsatisfying (which would include strong AI and materialism, together with dualism), we can just the same describe what we observe and make inferences about what we observe. That's all ID needs. Conscious representations are observed subjectively. Outer events are onserve objectively, but through the senses, which are subjective representations. That is some dualism, and it requires no further phylosophy to be obviously true. These are facts. These are the basis for the ID inference. ID needs no "untestable claims regarding the nature of mind". It just needs a simple and appropriate description of what we observe in the mind.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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aiguy (#225): On one hand I agree with you that consciousness needs to be considered; eliminative reductionism is hopelessly blind to our experience and so that won’t do at all. On the other hand, I think your view about the connection between consciousness and mental abilities. There are only some things that Penrose, for example, believes cannot accomplished algorithmically (his tiling examples, or certain Godelian problems) and without conscious thought The part you agree with is enough for my discussions on ID. I did not expect you would agree on the rest. And I agree with Penrose that only some things cannot be made algorithmically. It remains to see how many. Please remember that Penrose's argument is about mathemathics, indeed about arithmetichs, which is supposed to be the temple of algorithmic processes.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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GP said: Hi Mark. I think we can agree that the free will of compatibilists is a completely different concept form the free will of “libertarians” like myself. MF said: No I am afraid we cannot agree that. As far I can see the only difference between your concept of free will and mine is that you assert it is different – but without saying how. There is no definable difference in the behaviour resulting from your free will than from mine.
MF, I'm not sure how you're defining 'free will' - but my determinist definition (the ability to act on my desires) is certainly different from the libertarian definition. I'm just throwing that out there because I don't want to cause confusion over anything I've said. :)Green
August 19, 2010
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aiguy: Certainly inferences are performed algorithmically, including inductions and even abductions. You say it, and it's fine for me. I just said "I am not sure" for inferences, while I am sure for deductions. That is still my position, but if you know that it is possible to preform inferences algorithmically, I have no problem with that. What about understanding meanings?gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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aiguy (#225): However, we have no empirical data about mental representations. This is what I mean when I say we have no theory of intelligence. We cannot observe, nor figure out, how we think. Some people believe we should understand thought in terms of representations, others disagree. We have the representations themselves. They are empirical data. Indeed we have many different theories of intelligence, but I can agree with you that none is satisfying. That's why I have not given a theory of intelligence, but only empirical definitions based on observables. We can observe our thoughts. I am not trying to figure out how we think. And I am not saying how we could understand thought. I am not trying to understand it at all.gpuccio
August 19, 2010
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#248 Gpuccio Hi Mark. I think we can agree that the free will of compatibilists is a completely different concept form the free will of “libertarians” like myself. No I am afraid we cannot agree that. As far I can see the only difference between your concept of free will and mine is that you assert it is different - but without saying how. There is no definable difference in the behaviour resulting from your free will than from mine.markf
August 19, 2010
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gpuccio @ 250: Sorry if I did not define clear enough what I was aiming at with the distinction between religion and philosophy. I was using philosophy in the sense of it as a science, were debates between different philosophical positions are carried out on the basis of the logical coherence and deductability of arguments and positions. I do agree that your religious position is just as much a philosophical position as mine. However, your position was not arrived at by "critical, generally systematic approach and reliance on rational argument" (as is the definitional case in the science of philosophy), but by religious assumptions. Which I completely respect. I work with a certain set of metaphysical assumptions myself (that is changing when it is informed by new evidence), and although I try to arrive at those assumptions mostly by "critical, generally systematic approach and reliance on rational, logical argument", I realize that there are alsways some assumptions in the mix that have more to do with my desires than with rationality and logic. I merely wanted to point out the difference. No offense intended.molch
August 19, 2010
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