Is COVID-19 the end of “Trust Science!!”?

Should this Indian treatment be used in the West without clinical trials?

It most definitely should be quickly investigated. Why would anyone object to finding out what was done and the basis for it. Are you implying there is something wrong with it because it is Indian? The article does not mention what was done to see if there is a good basis for what was used. But anything that helps boost the immune system should be helpful. So find out immediately. People are dying. Read the history of quinine and malaria. It was the bark of a tree used by local people that provided the chemical to treat malaria. HCQ and zinc have histories and medical studies backing up their potential benefit. Then there is success with over a thousand patients in last couple months. No negatives, lots of positives just irrational objections by people who offer no alternative except let them die. A good friend of a close acquaintance was diagnosed with C19 two days ago. She was sent home with no treatment and told to wait it out. She is the exact person that should be given the harmless but effective treatment. Why? What explains such a negative attitude? That is the real crisis. It is on full display on this small site. jerry

Should this Indian treatment be used in the West without clinical trials? After all, thousands are dying and they say it works. Dwaraka Doss Goverdhan Doss Vaishnav College in Arumbakkam is conducting trail-based research to treat COVID-19 patients with Indian traditional medicines. First 20 COVID-19 patients were assigned to Dr Veerababu here to treat them with Indian traditional medicines along with western medicines. Later the number of patients increased to 69 and all of them were discharged in four days with the help of Indian traditional medicines treatment. Radhakrishnan, IAS, working as a nodal officer for the Chennai Corporation, said: "We have already got a research-based license for Indian traditional medicine of Neelavambu Kudineer. So far as COVID-19 is concerned, our first priority is prevention and aggressive testing." “ We are also popularising the Indian traditional medicines to improve the immune system of the people," he added. Now, the focus is on the hotspots of COVID-19. More than 50 Siddha doctors are taking care of hotspots and giving treatment to the patients and also increasing the immune system of the people living in surrounding areas. https://www.devdiscourse.com/article/health/1053967-69-corona-patients-recover-in-chennai-with-traditional-indian-treatment rhampton7

The Shawnee County Health Department is investigating several cases of COVID-19 linked to one or more group events that took place in May at Lake Perry. At least 10 people from multiple counties and two states who participated in the event(s) were confirmed as infected, and at least two additional people were infected as a result of having come in contact with the people who gathered at the lake. Over 20 people have been placed on quarantine as a result of having been exposed to the virus through some of the people who attended the lake event. It appears that the gatherings at the lake violated the statewide stay-at-home order that was in place at that time. During the investigation, the Health Department was able to unveil a link between some of the people infected at the lake and a recruit officer at the Topeka Police Department Recruit Academy Class who tested positive for the virus and who did not participate at any gatherings at Lake Perry. The presence of the infected recruit has forced the academy to shut down temporarily. All the recruits have been placed on quarantine. “ This is a strong reminder of how easy it is to be infected by this virus”, said Dr. Gianfranco Pezzino, Shawnee County Health Officer. “It is also an example of how disregarding the orders of public health authorities may result in a cascade of events leading to large disruptions and exposure to the virus for multiple people.” https://www.wibwnewsnow.com/police-academy-closure-linked-to-group-event-at-lake-perry/ rhampton7

Eight more sailors aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt have tested positive a second time for the new coronavirus, raising to 13 the number who appear to have become infected again while serving aboard the sidelined aircraft carrier. A ll the sailors had previously tested positive and had gone through at least two weeks of isolation. Before they were allowed to go back to the ship, all had to test negative twice in a row, with the tests separated by at least a day or two. https://www.pressherald.com/2020/05/16/the-latest-spain-pm-wants-to-extend-state-of-emergency-2/ rhampton7

The coronavirus pandemic is spreading from cities to rural communities that have a higher share of older, at-risk residents, a trend that has implications for the stress it may put on local health-care systems as well as the push by many governors to ease economic restrictions and reopen for business. A Wall Street Journal analysis of data compiled by Johns Hopkins University shows in the two-week period between April 20 and May 4, newly confirmed Covid-19 cases in nonmetropolitan areas outpaced those in metro areas by 30%. https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-spreading-faster-in-rural-communities-with-aging-populations-11589601660 rhampton7

There is no reason for the French doctors not to have started a standard clinical trial after reporting their initial findings. Have they? The reason these clinical trials are necessary (and you can see just how many of them are now at stage III in the above post) is that they establish results with much higher certainty and significantly greater detail. rhampton7

number of people in intensive care units dropped to 2,132 from 2,203 on Friday. The 96 deaths recorded on Saturday marked one of the lowest tolls since mid-March, when France imposed a nationwide lockdown that began to ease this week. However weekend tolls are frequently lower than in the week, possibly due to reporting lags, particularly in nursing homes. The government has warned it will consider locking down the country again if daily new infections rise above 3,000. On Friday, the number of infections increased by 563 to 141,919, up 0.4% and the ninth consecutive day that the case tally rose by about half a percentage point or less. On Friday, doctors in Marseille reported the country's first fatality from a rare childhood disease that experts have linked to the coronavirus. There have been 125 reported cases in France between March 1 and May 12, according to the country's public health agency. The patients' ages ranged from one to 14. https://www.france24.com/en/20200516-france-records-96-new-covid-19-deaths-as-hospitalisations-continue-to-fall rhampton7

Huh? The doctors behind the “miracle cure” have yet to provide evidence that meets the criteria and of a clinic trial.

Several things: First, people are dying by the tens of thousands. To suggest a clinical trial is necessary before using a promising protocol of well established drugs with almost no side effects is an indication of extreme callousness. Second, the French study you point to is an irrelevant study for a couple reasons. First, the patients were already in extremis. The "miracle cure" and the even better cure are meant for those who have not reached the need for hospitalization. The goal is to prevent hospitalization. The patients in the study were all hospitalized and on oxygen. Then what you referred to as the miracle cure was not administered to all but only to a few. The few who did get the "miracle cure" all progressed positively. None died. You ignore several positive outcomes around the world using the "miracle cure" and even better results using the better than "miracle cure." That is adding zinc to HCQ. By doing so you indicate a lack of knowledge on what is happening around the world with regards to treating people with this virus. Because of this lack of knowledge you should probably refrain from posting comments about the virus until you catch up on what is going on. By the way you have just pointed out that France has a terrible track record compared to many other countries and they do not recommend the "miracle cure" for use in France. It would seem counterproductive to use an example of bad results to support your point. Let's compare Italy which is not recommending HCQ with France who apparently has abandoned it for most of the country. Italy as of today had 224,000 cases with 31,7000 deaths and 122.800 recovered patients. France has 179,000 cases, 27,600 dead and 61,000 recovered. Or about just 34% recovered. Italy has 55% recovered. Looks like Italy is doing better but we will have to see what the results are in another couple weeks.. Italy had more cases sooner than France. jerry

Scientists and health experts across the world are working day and night to find a cure for the Covid-19 pandemic. At last count, at least 140 clinical trials that are in phase II and phase III are being conducted by various countries. Out of these 140, 67 clinical trials have reached phase III. Phase III in clinical trial is referred as the phase in which the drug is administered to a large number of people to expand the scope of its study for effectiveness and safety of the drug. The next step, if the trial is successful, is to apply for necessary permission from drug controllers and start the commercial production of the vaccine or the drug. Out of these 67 advanced-level clinical trials, 23 of them are being carried out in the United States. Four such research have reached phase III in China. The other countries which are in the race to find a cure for Covid-19 and are at phase III include France, Canada, Spain, Russia, Germany, Italy, among some others. More details in article https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/140-clinical-trials-cure-covid-advanced-stage rhampton7

Researchers at NYU's Grossman School of Medicine found patients given the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine along with zinc sulphate and the antibiotic azithromycin were 44 percent less likely to die from the coronavirus. The study looked at the records of 932 COVID-19 patients treated at local hospitals with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. More than 400 of them were also given 100 milligrams of zinc daily. Researchers said the patients given zinc were one and a half times more likely to recover, decreasing their need for intensive care. https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/05/12/nyu-study-looks-at-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-azithromycin-combo-on-decreasing-covid-19-deaths bornagain77

>>>8 BobRyan May 12, 2020 at 12:25 am Sweden has not been putting any measures in place, including distancing. They were projected to reach 100,000 dead by May 1. It hasn’t even reached 3500. Projections are based on science-fiction. Everything being done from quarantine to distancing, contact hand washing to wearing masks, is weakening the immune system.<<< Are you seriously suggesting that people should stop washing their hands? critter

The anti-inflammatory drug hydroxychloroquine does not significantly reduce admission to intensive care or death in patients hospitalized with pneumonia due to covid-19, finds a study from France published by The BMJ on May 14, 2020. The researchers say that caution is needed in the interpretation of their results, but that their findings do not support the use of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalized with covid-19 pneumonia. A randomized clinical trial from China also published on May 14, 2020, shows that hospitalized patients with mild to moderate persistent covid-19 who received hydroxychloroquine did not clear the virus more quickly than those receiving standard care. Adverse events were higher in those who received hydroxychloroquine. While further work is needed to confirm these results, the authors say that their findings do not support the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat patients with persistent mild to moderate covid-19. https://scitechdaily.com/results-from-randomized-clinical-trial-do-not-support-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19/ rhampton7

Huh? The doctors behind the “miracle cure” have yet to provide evidence that meets the criteria and of a clinic trial. They, unfortunately, are resting on the laurels of their early results with all the problems associated with it. In the time since, they should have continued with a true clinical trial to back up their findings. Have they? In the meantime, others around the world have done so and have already published results that were not as favorable. Why have the French doctors “quit”? rhampton7

This is how well France is handling COVID-19, the home of your “miracle cure”

But is France using the miracle cure? Actually what you are referring to is a less effective cure. Adding zinc to it makes it much more potent. Also most of the negative results from using HCQ come from using it wrong. Mainly because the FDA had directed its wrong use, probably for legal reasons. But it has lots of positive results around the world. You should look into them. So you just supported my position and admitted your position is wrong. Thank you. jerry

This is how well France is handling COVID-19, the home of your “miracle cure”. Coronavirus Cases: 179,506 Deaths: 27,529 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/ rhampton7

Your numbers do not match reality

Yes they do. Your numbers are the realities of the blind man who cannot see but there are the realities for those who can see. All the numbers from all your posts reflect a blindness. They reflect a world without treatment. With effective treatments the reality changes and my numbers are then real. In fact they may actually go down. Based on your numbers there will be a million dead in the US from the virus and maybe millions more from other reasons. Based on my numbers there should be no more than 100,000 and probably less and few dead from economic consequences. So the blind see a million+ dead in the US but those with a different vision see 900,000 still alive that you would see die. Extrapolated to the world and it becomes several million still living under the different vision. As opposed to the doom and gloom who only see tens of million dead. jerry

There are now six grocery stores with COVID-19 outbreaks in Colorado. Data released from the Colorado Department of Health and Environment (CDPHE) on Wednesday shows 67 confirmed COVID-19 staff cases in grocery stores throughout Colorado, four probable staff cases and three deaths. The three deaths were among staff members at a Walmart in Aurora. https://www.9news.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/costco-walmart-among-grocery-store-covid-19-outbreaks/73-bde0be4d-e1e3-41f1-a56d-8cf2356d6dde rhampton7

Mr. LaLima had never stopped cutting hair, despite Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo’s order. But he was not doing it in his shop; he was doing in the privacy of his home — in the back of the shop. Joseph LaLima was hospitalized for the coronavirus for four days. . Some of the county’s 55 disease investigators are now trying to trace those customers. According to the barber, many of his clients were police officers and firefighters, whose hair he cut for free. “I did them a favor!” Mr. LaLima said. “And I didn’t give it to anybody else. I got it from somebody that came into my shop.” The coronavirus has killed 31 people in Ulster County, and more than 1,400 people have been infected. Eleven people are currently hospitalized in the county, and health officials fear that some of Mr. LaLima’s clients may be next. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/nyregion/barber-virus-kingston-ny.html rhampton7

A day after Johnson County, MO Health Department officials announced the county’s first workplace cluster of COVID-19 cases, officials at shipping giant FedEx confirmed their Olathe distribution plant as the location of the cluster. Johnson County Department of Health and Environment Director Dr. Sanmi Areola added that his department expects “quite a few outbreaks” like the one announced Thursday as businesses reopen. https://www.kshb.com/news/coronavirus/fexex-confirms-olathe-distribution-plant-covid-19-cluster rhampton7

Your numbers do not match reality. And then there’s this: Five sailors on the aircraft carrier sidelined in Guam due to a COVID-19 outbreak have tested positive for the virus for the second time and have been taken off the ship, according to the Navy. All five sailors had previously tested positive and had gone through at least two weeks of isolation. As part of the process, they all had to test negative twice in a row, with the tests separated by at least a day or two before they were allowed to go back to the ship. In a statement Friday, the Navy said that, while onboard, the five sailors self-monitored and adhered to strict social distancing protocols. As of Thursday, more than 2,900 sailors have reboarded the ship, and about 25% of the more than 1,000 who had tested positive have now recovered, according to the Navy. https://ktxs.com/news/nation-world/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time rhampton7

How do you get 100 deaths?

Should be 1200. Oklahoma has 4 million people. .03% (What Todaro estimates based on current results of using HCQ and zinc) of that is approximately 1200. Most would be high risk elderly patients with at least one comorbidity. Applying to US it would mean about 100,000 deaths total. Already approaching that with lockdown, social distancing and masks. jerry

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, as of 2015, the state of Oklahoma has an estimated population of 3,911,338. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Oklahoma Currently there are 5000 infected Oklahomans of which 285 have died. If herd inmunity for COVID-19 is 50%, then 1,995,000 Oklahomans still need to be infected. How do you get 100 deaths? rhampton7

The upshot: The U.S. as a whole is not yet close to achieving even the speculatively low estimate of the herd immunity threshold.

But they would if they didn’t wear masks or socially distance and the economy didn’t have a lockdown. If there is a simple effective treatment then it would achieved quickly with out disrupting the economy. Think of all the lives that would be saved.

the number of virus-related deaths increased to 285.

Imagine if they had used an effective treatment, all those lives would have been saved. jerry

As of Friday, May 15, the Oklahoma State Department of Health reported there are 5,086 confirmed positive coronavirus cases in the state, and that the number of virus-related deaths increased to 285. https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-coronavirus-cases-top-5000-285-deaths-reported/32495362 rhampton7

Until there is an effective COVID-19 vaccine, the only way to achieve herd immunity would be to allow the microbe to infect enough people to form that barrier protecting the susceptible. The breadth of the barrier required to achieve herd immunity depends in large part on just how contagious a specific disease is. For example: In a susceptible, unvaccinated population, each measles carrier will infect an estimated 12 to 18 other people. In the nomenclature of epidemiology, the basic reproduction number or R0 ("R naught") of measles is 12 to 18. The classical formula for calculating a herd immunity threshold is 1—1/R0. With measles, that means 1—1/18, or a threshold of 94 percent. In general, the higher the R0, the higher the threshold required for achieving herd immunity. Other important factors in calculating herd immunity thresholds include the number of social interactions and their durations, innate differences in individual immune responses, and divergent exposures to the infectious microbe. There are no solid estimates for the percentage of the U.S. population that has already been infected by the coronavirus, but Youyang Gu and his team at COVID19-Projections estimate that right now the number is between 2.2 to 4.7 percent. That would mean that somewhere between 7.3 and 15.5 million Americans have been infected. A similar result emerges from a very rough calculation that multiplies the number of confirmed cases at 1.4 million by a 10-fold factor of undiagnosed cases and infections. (The 10-fold factor is derived from data recently reported by Indiana University researchers.) The upshot: The U.S. as a whole is not yet close to achieving even the speculatively low estimate of the herd immunity threshold. https://reason.com/2020/05/15/whats-the-herd-immunity-threshold-for-the-covid-19-coronavirus/ rhampton7

Bratzler took a much more modest fatality rate – 0.3%. Assuming 80% of Oklahomans needed to be infected to achieve herd immunity, that means nearly 10,000 Oklahomans would die

Todaro estimates .03% or about 1/100 of what Bratzler estimates. This would make it extremely manageable to reach herd immunity. So about 100 people would die In Oklahoma probably with comorbidities. jerry

Thousands of professionals disagree with you.

Thousands of professionals agree there is an effective treatment that affects the virus itself or disrupts the pathways the virus uses to create pathologies A new one appeared today. So they disagree with the assessment of your experts jerry

Dr. Dale Bratzler, enterprise chief quality officer for OU Medicine, told KOCO 5 there’s two ways people can get herd immunity – with a vaccine and without one. “ I’ve been trying to reduce some of the myths out there on Facebook and other places where you see people say, ‘Let’s just let everybody get infected and go on.’ But I don’t think they recognize the significant toll it would have on Oklahomans to do that,” Bratzler said. Right now, about 6% of confirmed cases in Oklahoma end in death. Bratzler took a much more modest fatality rate – 0.3%. Assuming 80% of Oklahomans needed to be infected to achieve herd immunity, that means nearly 10,000 Oklahomans would die. If 1% of COVID-19 cases were fatal, a rate Bratzler thinks is likely, that number would jump to 32,000 Oklahomans dead. https://www.koco.com/article/ou-medicine-expert-works-to-dispel-myths-of-herd-immunity-floating-online/32454489 rhampton7

EG “Especially if it allows us to speed up the opening of the economy. “My prediction is that when games resume, it will be the leagues that impose wearing masks and keeping concessions closed.“ Yes that is exactly my point so wearing masks will allow a reopening of the economy however the economy ,even though open, will not see demand because millions will lose their jobs because everyone will be required to wear masks. So to say they will allow the economy to speed up reopening is pretty meaningless if by reopening a business is assured it will go out of business and millions will have no jobs to go back to. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Vivid vividbleau

Without A Vaccine, Herd Immunity Won’t Save Us But getting to herd immunity without a vaccine isn’t as simple as the idea itself. A number of variables can affect when herd immunity is reached — and what it costs to get there — and they vary depending on the disease. How infectious is the disease? How deadly is it? And how long do people stay immune once they’ve gotten it? Adjusting any of these variables can drastically change the outcome of this equation. You can probably sense where this is heading. We’ve built a very simplified version of how those variables interact. (You’ll see just how simple in the methodology beneath the simulator.) To be clear, this is not about COVID-19 itself — instead, our calculator shows how a theoretical disease we’re calling Fictionitis would play out in a population that has never encountered it before and does nothing to try to stop it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/without-a-vaccine-herd-immunity-wont-save-us/ An interactive calculator is at the link above rhampton7

Jerry

You are talking nonsense again. You just contradicted yourself. For example, making someone comfortable with aspirin or acetaminophen is not a treatment. You then agreed there is no treatment and we have to wait for some pie in the sky something.

Are you seriously suggesting that treating the symptoms is not a treatment? Antiinflamatories, oxygen, intubation, acetaminophen, anti-viral drugs, are all used to treat viral infections. What there isn't is a cure, only prevention (i.e., vaccines and isolation).

You then agreed there is no treatment and we have to wait for some pie in the sky something.

I said no such thing. I said that someday we may have drugs in our tool chest in the same way that we have for bacterial infections. If you have a bacterial infection, an anti-biotic can cure you. You get a viral disease, there is currently no cure-all.

Meanwhile there are effective treatments

Thousands of professionals disagree with you. Ed George

VB

Ed the economy is based on demand, demand requires money, money is gotten by having a job, how many jobs will be lost if everyone is required to wear a mask? Here is one small example. I am quite familiar with the sports world. The amount of peripheral jobs created by the NFL, MLB, NBA, College Football, Basketball, etc are enormous, from the beer hawker to those that work at concessional stands.. How does one drink a beer have a hotdog and coke, go to the concession stands for food and eat with a mask? We are talking about thousands and thousands of jobs that just went poof. How about restaurants and bars?

I certainly sympathize, but I found it surprising that it was sports leagues who were amongst the first to cease operations due to COVID-19. That shocked me until I realized that the could be held legally liable shout there be an outbreak because of an event. My prediction is that when games resume, it will be the leagues that impose wearing masks and keeping concessions closed. Ed George

Is there a new cure for the virus? On the good news front, a California-based biopharmaceutical company claims to have discovered an antibody that could shield the human body from the virus. https://fxn.ws/2Z7Znuo

"We want to emphasize there is a cure. There is a solution that works 100 percent," Dr. Henry Ji, founder and CEO of Sorrento Therapeutics, told Fox News. "If we have the neutralizing antibody in your body, you don't need the social distancing. You can open up a society without fear."

Will one of the interesting things about this virus be that we may make some very interesting breakthroughs on how to stay healthy against viruses in general. jerry

Jerry: A nonsense statement. Make the case I am wrong with evidence and logic and it will make me look like a fool. Maybe not to me as you say but to any reasonable person. I am making the case that the conventional wisdom is wrong. Make the case that it is right using my questions and observations as the basis for it. I did lay out some of my reasoning above, what was wrong with it? Specify which things I got incorrect? For example, will masks reduce the number of deaths in the long run? Will flattening the curve reduce the number of deaths in the long run? We already know that your answer of reducing the burden on the health care system is not correct since it is far from over burdened. It is or was in some places. And the lockdown procedures changed the situation! That was why the lockdown was introduced so the health facilities WOULD NOT get overburdened. That may have been true in Lombardy at first but not in New York the next larges concentration of cases or anywhere else. So, you agree it was true in some places. (Are you sure about New York?) So it could have been true in more places if the rate of infection hadn't been slowed down? They are many separate issues so take one and discuss it. You pick. JVL

Asauber: Maybe. But you are still compliant out of virus fear, correct? I'm compliant with measures that help prevent me from becoming infected. I violate some others every day. I also have a very elderly relative that I'm trying hard to stay uninfected. JVL

JVL, "I already explained that I, personally, do not depend on any one source to draw my conclusions from so I assume you’re not referring to me!" Maybe. ;) But you are still compliant out of virus fear, correct? Andrew asauber

I think people (not just here) have answered those questions seriously. You disagree with the answers for various reasons. I’m happy to discuss any of those aspects of the situation but if you’re just going to tell me I’m wrong or I’m parroting the conventional wisdom then . . . should I bother?

A nonsense statement. Make the case I am wrong with evidence and logic and it will make me look like a fool. Maybe not to me as you say but to any reasonable person. I am making the case that the conventional wisdom is wrong. Make the case that it is right using my questions and observations as the basis for it. For example, will masks reduce the number of deaths in the long run? Will flattening the curve reduce the number of deaths in the long run? We already know that your answer of reducing the burden on the health care system is not correct since it is far from over burdened. That may have been true in Lombardy at first but not in New York the next larges concentration of cases or anywhere else. The hospital ship sent to New York City went home because there were no patients. The tent hospital city set up in Central Park closed down because there was no need. They are many separate issues so take one and discuss it. By the way I am under no illusion that anything I write will change minds here. It is well understood that most opinions are based on emotions and are immune to facts and logic. I do it for myself and I try to make my arguments logical and evidence based. This forum is just a means of examining what I believe is correct. So I actually look for people to prove me wrong. I actually ask for evidence to the contrary. Look at the comments RHampton made last night in response to my objections to his postings. He never once answered any questions I asked but just kept repeating the same points without justifying his position. He was using an argument from authority which is a fallacy. So justify your position. jerry

Asauber: Why not? If the fear works, why not use it? What would be the reason not to? That's not the same as it actually happening isn't it? Just because you think they would if they could doesn't mean they have. For some reason that's what you think is happening but there's no evidence it is. Yes, we do. And we have zombies who watch government briefings every day for their worldviews. I already explained that I, personally, do not depend on any one source to draw my conclusions from so I assume you're not referring to me! JVL

Jerry: Nobody seems to want to answer any of these seriously but just parrots the conventional wisdom. I think people (not just here) have answered those questions seriously. You disagree with the answers for various reasons. I'm happy to discuss any of those aspects of the situation but if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong or I'm parroting the conventional wisdom then . . . should I bother? In other words: if you're sure you're right and most healthcare professionals in the world are wrong then is there anything to discuss? But no one seems to be able to defend these actions in terms of saving lives. I did address that above; if you read it then I guess you disagreed with it. So does 'defending these actions' only mean agreeing with your assessment? JVL

JVL, "So, let me get this straight, you think over 150 independent governments in the world are all colluding to make sure we’re all good, compliant subjects and NO ONE has bucked the trend or spilled the beans?" Why not? If the fear works, why not use it? What would be the reason not to? "We don’t have rulers anymore" Yes, we do. And we have zombies who watch government briefings every day for their worldviews. ;) Andrew asauber

Again, the questions posed are not answered. We know the health care facilities in the US have not been over taxed. In fact they are shutting down in places with no patients to treat. So that is not a reason for a lockdown. We know there are treatments that eliminate the virus in most cases if done early. These prevent hospitalization and by definition eventually death for many. So that is a reason for returning to normal activity. We know that preventing people from getting the virus now is not preventing them from getting the virus eventually. We know that the longer we postpone normal life the more people will die from other causes. So this is a reason for returning to normal activity. We also know that the press is providing fake news about the various treatments. We also know that some of the prospective treatments and there are now many are extremely expensive. We also know that some of the effective treatments are incredibly inexpensive. I know the theory behind the wearing of masks. I know the theory behind the flattening of the curve and social distancing. But no one seems to be able to defend these actions in terms of saving lives. They may save lives in the short run from the virus, I agree but not from the virus in the long run. And in the mean time large numbers will die because of these measures, probably greater than will die from the virus. Nobody seems to want to answer any of these seriously but just parrots the conventional wisdom. jerry

Asauber: Don’t be obtuse. Who is giving the direction to lock down? So, let me get this straight, you think over 150 independent governments in the world are all colluding to make sure we're all good, compliant subjects and NO ONE has bucked the trend or spilled the beans? If you know any history, rulers desire compliance from their subjects. Don’t they? We don't have rulers anymore. Except maybe in Russia and North Korea and China. But even China ends up bending on occasion when they want something from the rest of the world. JVL

JVL, "Compliance to whom?" Don't be obtuse. Who is giving the direction to lock down? "For what purpose?" If you know any history, rulers desire compliance from their subjects. Don't they? Andrew asauber

Asauber: Compliance through fear. Not hard to see. Compliance to whom? For what purpose? And we aren’t locked down because of heart-wrenching scenes. Heart-wrenching scenes we have everyday, anyway. We are locked down because of numbers. Quite a lot of heart-wrenching scenes, all over the planet, from the same cause. JVL

JVL, "Marketing for what?" Compliance through fear. Not hard to see. "the heart wrenching scenes" And we aren't locked down because of heart-wrenching scenes. Heart-wrenching scenes we have everyday, anyway. We are locked down because of numbers. Andrew asauber

Asauber: Ah. I see this is where we have an issue. I don’t think we get to see any data. We get to see marketing numbers presented for mass consumption. What’s your opinion on that possibility? Marketing numbers? Marketing for what? I trust the health care professionals (some of whom have died) when they tell us to stay at home, when they ask for the right PPE, when they come on radio programmes and describe the heart wrenching scenes they have witnessed. When I see data that's more-or-less in agreement from different sources around the globe then I believe they are roughly correct. JVL

"I am trying to work from the best data I can find." JVL, Ah. I see this is where we have an issue. I don't think we get to see any data. We get to see marketing numbers presented for mass consumption. What's your opinion on that possibility? Andrew asauber

Asauber: Sounds like you are strictly a party-line guy watching daily govt briefings. Hardly. They've screwed a lot of things up. And I've always thought BJ was an idiot. Some of the government policies are good, some are okay and some are BS-crazy. Do you feel your position on COVID-19 is the result of independent thinking or do you think you are just repeating what you think is official information? I don't JUST listen to the government daily briefing! I've read comments here, I've listened to lots of science programmes and podcasts. I can't say I've got it all correct but I am trying to work from the best data I can find. JVL

JVL, Sounds like you are strictly a party-line guy watching daily govt briefings. ;) Do you feel your position on COVID-19 is the result of independent thinking or do you think you are just repeating what you think is official information? Andrew asauber

Asauber: In my area, extra facilities opened up to handle the worst of the COVID surge, then closed again without ever seeing any patients. Yup, in the UK as well (sorry, can't remember where you are). But, I think it was right to over-prepare in case the situation grew a lot worse a lot faster than it did. But they really should have locked down sooner and that would have slowed down the progress even more better. (Sorry, on of my old professor's expressions.) I watch the daily UK government briefing about the COVID-19 situation and they are all very proud that the hospitals were not overrun (not sure if they've got the PPE stuff sorted yet!) and I agree. But I also see that there are still hundreds of deaths per day and I think: we've still got work to do. JVL

"medical facilities will have more staff and resources to bring to bear" JVL, In my area, extra facilities opened up to handle the worst of the COVID surge, then closed again without ever seeing any patients. Andrew asauber

Jerry: I maintain that it is not. It will lead to a lot more dead because it just postpones the inevitable. Show me why I am wrong! Actually, postponing when some people are exposed and get ill will help improve the survivor rate because the medical facilities will have more staff and resources to bring to bear. IF everyone got exposed quickly there would be so many people on the critical list that some would not get the care they need. This is really one of the major points of the lockdown: flatten what would have been an extremely high infection peak and spread the cases out. Eventually most people will get exposed to the virus (hopefully the lockdown will prevent some of the most vulnerable from being exposed at all) and it would be good if there was enough medical aid to go around. Additionally, if some exposure is delayed long enough there's a chance for a vaccine. So masks and social distancing and such help save lives. Theoretically, if you could lock down the whole world for three or four weeks the pandemic would be over. The active cases would be resolved and the survivors would no longer be shedding the virus. Clearly that's not ethical or feasible or moral and I am NOT proposing that! And there is no agreement that there is an effective treatment. That's not me saying that, that's the CDC and the WHO and every professional medical organisation on the planet. It would also be immoral and unethical to administer a drug that is known to have some severe side-effects without being very, very, very sure it's worth the risk. Thankfully, vaccine trials are also being run right now. Quite a few brave and generous people (we're talking hundreds) are volunteering to test it. In fact they have to try and expose themselves to the virus! Those people are risking their own lives in hopes of saving others. No matter what your or their beliefs are you have to applaud that. JVL

Rhampton You fail to answer any of the basic questions. You just go on and on about the purpose of a face mask. Everyone knows all this. No need to find more links to the obvious. What you and anyone else who recommends using them do not do is show they are not counterproductive. Is extending the period that most of the population does not have the virus good? That is what masks are doing. Is that good or bad? I maintain that it is not. It will lead to a lot more dead because it just postpones the inevitable. Show me why I am wrong! For a few weeks you have been posting how people in food packing plants are getting the virus and shutting down the food supply. How many deaths will that lead to? Not once did you post how to prevent that. Others did because there is a treatment for the virus. Who is more compassionate? Those who want this to be over by using effective treatments or those who extend out the slow acquisition of the virus and its inevitable death rate. Is it all just for appearances to look good? While tens of thousands die as they virtue signal. If this true then how cynical and callous is that? jerry

. #66

"There are two types of people in the world. those who want to take care of themselves, and those who want big government to take care of them" Bob: What about people who want other people to be taken care of?

I have some sympathies with Bob’s comment. Certainly not his intent here, nor his proud aggravation against science and reason, but the tendency on display towards black and white thinking in some of the responsibilities we surely have. I know a story of a 59 year-old man incarcerated at a prison in one of our fine mountainous western states. He is a genuinely humble and frail man, having grown up as a sickly boy with significant needs and serious learning disabilities. Today he walks with a cane, carrying around a body showing all the remnants of a lifetime of menial labor, lack of education and routine drug abuse. He is a true story. Despite the odds against him (and years of stupid choices along the way) he found a woman “late” in life who helped stabilize his routines, check his thinking, and give him purpose. They married and had a daughter, who by all accounts, is a remarkable and gifted young teenager today. She lost her mother at 5 years old to cancer and was raised alone by her father (as a quirky, fun, and modest girl) until his incarceration. He had taught her from an early age that there was goodness in heaven and earth and to be self-sufficient above all else; the same things he was taught as a boy. After his wife’s untimely death, with the responsibility of taking care of his daughter and two older sons from a previous marriage, he slowly drifted back to marginal living and drug abuse. Then a day came when another sad-story meth-addict showed up at his home, physically hassling his live-in addict girlfriend while he was away. When the father and son showed up, they beat the guy up — which basically amounted to the father yelling while the older (19 yo) son beat the crap out of the other man. The father then instructed the son to pile him into his car and take him home, which the son did, leaving him sitting in the grass of his front yard, which is where they found him dead the next day. He is serving several years, while his son will serve for decades on end, his whole life cut short. It is the end of a story that his mother would say began in the 1970’s when he was just a sickly child. She doesn’t grant him anything even resembling a “pass” on the life he led, but it was a life that she knew nothing of. When she was raising him, it quickly became obvious that he struggled to learn (along with other difficulties). Among other things, they discovered that when he would read a page of text, he would follow the line of letters across the page, then drop down one line, and start back across the page in reverse. The mother enrolled him in a special school for children with his type of learning difficulties, and he began to show some slow but steady improvement. Then the “do-gooders” of the day — I say “do-gooders” as that ubiquitous group of enlightened individuals with generally good intentions and an uncontrolled will to enforce it on others — the “do-gooders” insisted that their state mainstream all children with learning disabilities, immediately throwing this struggling kid into a large Metropolitan high school system as a freshman (apparently for his own good). The mother, knowing the reality of the situation her son was in, flatly refused and fought them tooth and nail. She was eventually brought up in front of the county judge with threats against both her checkbook and her freedom if she did not comply. She had two other perfectly healthy children to raise, so she bent a knee and complied to the will of the state. Almost immediately thereafter, her other son started getting into trouble at school, fighting off the other boys who would hassle his little brother and his ways. A few weeks later, he ran away from home, ran away from the city his family lived in, left the state, and never returned, ever. So to the point of the story ... a few months ago, as this physically broken and contrite man sits in prison, with his body giving up what little it has left to give, he came down with an intestinal (colon) condition that required medications twice per day. Outside advocates (his older sister) had to force the state to address the ailment in the first place which, only after weeks of stalling, they eventually did. Around that same time, a guard who was apparently having a bad day (and doing what some guards are prone to do) punished him for some throw-away offense by moving him to the farthest bed away from the med station - the only place he can get his medication in a large complex of steel stairs and concrete floors. And on one of his many slow trips across the complex to get his medications, he tripped and fell in the stairwell and broke his foot. But he got up, toughed it out and made it back to his bed anyway. His forefoot then swelled up like a grapefruit and turned purple blue. The guards did nothing for 12 days, and then only under pressure, did they allow him to be x-rayed in an effort to discover what any sensible person already knew. This is one story I know among others, which are just the same. I find them repugnant and beneath a civilized society. But they are clearly not beneath us. These are our throwaway people, those who simply refused to live by our laws, and they are getting what they deserve. Those who claim to be Christians and atheists alike will line up to say so. It’s black and white. After all, this man is serving a prison sentence because of his willful disregard for the welfare of another human being, allowing that person to die after a beating that took place at his home. Why should anyone give a shit about his foot? Of course, the glaring distinction is that the willful disregard happening to him today comes from those who dole it out, and then pick up a paycheck from the state for doing so. If it was wrong in the first, it is equally wrong in the second, if not more so. One thing I know for sure, there is a certain mentality of individual — we all know them — who are simply abusive characters. It is their general nature, and our correctional facilities are ripe with them. We hire them because they are good at what they do — intimidate and control. And don’t get me wrong, there are clearly dedicated high-quality people throughout the profession, and I am also quite aware that our prisons are not full of broken men, quietly shuffling off to the bathroom with their cane. It is a world of tough choices for prison staff, who themselves would like to be alive at the end of their shift, to go home to their own families. But there is also a mentality inside these correctional facilities (apparently in all countries of the world) that enables a portion of the staff to simply (and often personally) wipe their feet on our prisoners, and that is a fact. More than a dozen correctional officers watched this man drag his swollen blue foot down the halls for days in order to retrieve his medications, and they did nothing. That can only happen in a place where it is okay to do so -- “okay” with the politicians who sell our correctional facilities to the highest bidder, “okay” with commanders in oversight, “okay” with the guard staff, and “okay” with a population who (by and large) allows it to happen. Unfortunately, I have been among the latter, and I offer no quick fixes, but I am sure we can do better than this. /soapbox Upright BiPed

one of the concerns is knowing if the cloth mask really works. Experts at OU (Oklahoma University) Medicine told KOCO 5 that cloth masks are fine because they're used for protecting others, especially in a situation where you can't keep that 6-foot distance. “ Anything that like even a bed sheet cover type of thing will work as long as it prevents like a spit from going through," Dr. Steven Crawford said. "If we put masks on them and they still cough, what's happening is that droplet is going onto the mask and not spreading out into the air." “ No matter the type of mask, whether it's the fancy N95s to ones that are handmade, those are not necessarily going to protect the wearer from getting ill," he said. "The issue of the mask is important to protect the other person from your own exposure. If you sneeze or cough in that mask, it's going to be more helpful than not wearing anything." https://www.koco.com/article/medical-expert-breaks-down-effectiveness-of-wearing-cloth-masks-in-public/32072506 rhampton7

Any kind of a mask is better than no mask at all,” Johns Hopkins University Professor of Mechanical Engineering Rajat Mittal, said. “Protection from someone who has an infection and is wearing the mask is almost as important in this pandemic as protecting the person wearing the mask.” Mittal and his team published a report this month in the Journal of Fluid Mechanics, showing much of the research on avoiding respiratory illness has not changed much since the Spanish Flu of 1918. Wake Forest Baptist Health anesthesiology chair Scott Segal says if you’re making a homemade mask, you can give the material a “light test.” Hold it up to the sun or a light to see if any light passes through it. If it does, it will not be a good filter. https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2020/05/14/coronavirus-masks-johns-hopkins-scientists-study/ rhampton7

I, along with 18 other experts from a variety of disciplines, conducted a review of the research on public mask-wearing as a tool to slow the spread SARS-CoV-2. We published a preprint of our paper on April 12 and it is now awaiting peer review at the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The research that first convinced me was a laser light-scattering experiment. Researchers from the National Institutes of Health used lasers to illuminate and count how many droplets of saliva were flung into the air by a person talking with and without a face mask. The paper was only recently published officially, but I saw a YouTube video showing the experiment in early March. The results are shockingly obvious in the video. When the researcher used a simple cloth face cover, nearly all the droplets were blocked. This evidence is only relevant if COVID-19 is transmitted by droplets from a person’s mouth. It is. There are many documented super-spreading cases connected with activities – like singing in enclosed spaces – that create a lot of droplets. The light-scattering experiment cannot see “micro-droplets” that are smaller than 5 microns and could contain some viral particles. But experts don’t think that these are responsible for much COVID-19 transmission. While just how much of a role these small particles play in transmission remains to be seen, recent research suggests that cloth masks are also effective at reducing the spread of these smaller particles. In a paper that has not yet been peer-reviewed, researchers found that micro-droplets fell out of the air within 1.5 meters of the person who was wearing a mask, versus 5 meters for those not wearing masks. When combined with social distancing, this suggests that masks can effectively reduce transmission via micro-droplets. https://theconversation.com/masks-help-stop-the-spread-of-coronavirus-the-science-is-simple-and-im-one-of-100-experts-urging-governors-to-require-public-mask-wearing-138507 rhampton7

Of course there is recommended treatment. The same as with most viral infections such as the cold and the flu. Treat the symptoms. Hopefully, in time, we will have an tool chest full of drug options like we do with bacterial infections, but we aren’t there yet. The

You are talking nonsense again. You just contradicted yourself. For example, making someone comfortable with aspirin or acetaminophen is not a treatment. You then agreed there is no treatment and we have to wait for some pie in the sky something. Meanwhile there are effective treatments and tens of thousands are dying because they don’t get them. So I assume you approve of this situation where these tens of thousands are dying and not receiving the effective treatments since you say they don’t actually exist. Tens of thousands dead is ok but not wearing a mask is selfish. Then there is the potentially much larger number dead from a long term lockdown. Opening up hair salons and outdoor restaurants is not opening the economy. jerry

“Especially if it allows us to speed up the opening of the economy.” Ed the economy is based on demand, demand requires money, money is gotten by having a job, how many jobs will be lost if everyone is required to wear a mask? Here is one small example. I am quite familiar with the sports world. The amount of peripheral jobs created by the NFL, MLB, NBA, College Football, Basketball, etc are enormous, from the beer hawker to those that work at concessional stands.. How does one drink a beer have a hotdog and coke, go to the concession stands for food and eat with a mask? We are talking about thousands and thousands of jobs that just went poof. How about restaurants and bars? “I guess the question I have is, why are you so opposed to the minor inconvenience of wearing a mask? I am not opposed to anyone wearing a mask I am opposed to dictating to me that I have to wear a mask under threat of law. I am outraged that convicted felons are being released from prison while a Salon owner in Texas is at the same time being thrown in jail. I am tired of being lied to and told things that may or may not be effective. If someone wants me to wear a mask honestly all they have to do is ask! Vivid Vivid vividbleau

Jerry

Could it actually slow down opening up the economy?

If it reduces transmission rates by a little bit it will allow us to relax some of the distancing preferences.

RCT’s are to compare different options. Right now there is no other option because there is no recommended treatment.

Of course there is recommended treatment. The same as with most viral infections such as the cold and the flu. Treat the symptoms. Hopefully, in time, we will have an tool chest full of drug options like we do with bacterial infections, but we aren’t there yet. Ed George

Especially if it allows us to speed up the opening of the economy.

Could it actually slow down opening up the economy? If that is true, then masks are an obstacle to opening up the economy. Unless you believe we should wear mask for the rest of time.

Why not bring back bloodletting and leaches? The reason we require RCTs is because of of the history of negative consequences due to the use of drugs before they were fully studied.

A nonsense statement in several respects. We already know the consequences of the use of the drugs which are effective. They have been fully studied. What has leeches or bloodletting to do with anything? RCT's are to compare new options with accepted options. Right now there is no other option because there is no recommended option other than to do nothing. jerry

Jerry

Why? If everyone has to get the virus, why not the sooner the better?

Who says that everyone has to get it. Before vaccines, not everyone got smallpox, polio or the measles. Not everyone got the Spanish flu.

Is the really inhumane act the suppression of effective treatment options that are available using some irrational reason such as the need for RCTs (random control tests) before usage?

Why not bring back bloodletting and leaches? The reason we require RCTs is because of of the history of negative consequences due to the use of drugs before they were fully studied. Ed George

VB

Do you know how much aerosols are spread just breathing,

Less if a mask is worn.

how far aerosols go when sneezing or coughing?

Not as far if a mask is worn.

If a person is not coughing or sneezing what is the risk to others if one maintains social distancing?

When you are in a store, or on public transit, and may other situations, it is not always possible to maintain the recommended two metre separation. And when you our outside, wind can make the recommended distance ineffective. I guess the question I have is, why are you so opposed to the minor inconvenience of wearing a mask? Especially if it allows us to speed up the opening of the economy. Ed George

Not wearing a mask if you are near people is just a selfish, irresponsible act.

Why? If everyone has to get the virus, why not the sooner the better? Why isn't the spread of the virus quickly the more humane outcome when we have treatment options for those who get it. So to push a point are using masks really a less humane act? Is the really inhumane act the suppression of effective treatment options that are available using some irrational reason such as the need for RCTs (random control tests) before usage? The longer the lockdown, the more people will die from the severe economic consequences. Wearing masks will prolong the lockdown. Therefore wearing mask will lead to more people dying. Debate the logic if you want but if the propositions are true, then mask are a bad idea. jerry

EG “But they do reduce the aerosols you spread if you are infected. Not wearing a mask if you are near people is just a selfish, irresponsible act.” You have no idea how effective masks are and neither does then CDC so spare me the outrage. Do you know how much aerosols are spread just breathing, how far aerosols go when sneezing or coughing? If a person is not coughing or sneezing what is the risk to others if one maintains social distancing? “ There is very little research about the value of masks to protect people in public settings. These interim recommendations are based on the best judgment of public health experts who relied in part on information about the protective value of masks in healthcare facilities.” “When used in conjunction with such preventive steps, masks and respirators MAY help prevent some spread of influenza.” https://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2007/r070503.htm https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/covid-19-face-mask-advice-explained/ Vivid vividbleau

Cloth masks have little affect on preventing you from getting COVID-19 because they don’t prevent particles landing on your mask and entering through your eyes or nose as you touch your mask and face. Most people wearing a mask actually touch their face more frequently. But they do reduce the aerosols you spread if you are infected. Not wearing a mask if you are near people is just a selfish, irresponsible act. Ed George

RHampton, You continue to avoid the questions and whether masks are in fact productive or counterproductive. By bringing up other people all you are doing is saying you agree with them. To use them as an example of an argument are you saying that these people are making an irrelevant argument? You have not said that. By presenting them you are saying you agree with them unless you specify you don't. I understand all the reasons for masks but are they not in fact counterproductive in the sense they are slowing down the inevitable? And the inevitable is where we have to get to. Most of the population have to get infected. Waiting for a vaccine may kill millions in the mean time. Do we not have to reach herd immunity and quick as possible especially when we have effective treatments. jerry

“Seriously, mask = cowardice is some of rankest fake macho horsesh*t around. It’s decadent, anti-intellectual vice signalling posing as courage — at someone else’s expense. It’s shameful posturing hackery and playing to the mob.” Mask cowardice really? Has anyone done a controlled scientific trial that tells us exactly how effective masks are? My family is full of nurses they tell me that unless they are n95 there is considerable dispute as to the effectiveness. Masks worn in surgery are not necessarily effective in prohibiting the transmissions of Covid. Where are the year long trials? I am extremely skeptical having already been lied to repeatedly by the so called experts. We were told masks are not effective now they are. We were lied to by WHO led by a pretend Marxist doctor that the virus was not transmitted human to human. We were told by the President that this would be over when warm weather hit. We were told that the reason for the lockdown was to flatten the curve but now it’s morphed into something else. We have been lied to by China. So now we are supposed to wear masks and if we don’t we are cowards F that! I see that Costco require masks to get into their store, fine if I don’t want to wear a mask I will not go to Costco, my choice. If someone wants me to wear a mask in order to see me I will wear a mask or choose not to see them, my choice. If I am in a store that does not require me to wear a mask I may or may not however I will maintain social distance. I will choose when and where I will wear a mask but I will not be shamed into wearing a mask that we have no idea what it’s effectiveness is to a long term solution. If someone is freaked out about someone not wearing a mask here is a suggestion, stay home!!, your choice. Language warning. The following rant by Dave Portnoy Barstool Sports https://www.theblaze.com/news/barstool-sports-founder-coronavirus-lockdowns Vivid vividbleau

Jonah Goldberg Seriously, mask = cowardice is some of rankest fake macho horsesh*t around. It’s decadent, anti-intellectual vice signalling posing as courage — at someone else’s expense. It’s shameful posturing hackery and playing to the mob. Terry Moran We wear masks to protect others, in the event we are infected yet asymptomatic. It is a kindness. A form of fellowship and solidarity in a time of pandemic. An act of charity towards our more vulnerable brothers and sisters. You parade your faith, yet here forget its essence. Patrick Connelly Beyond the poor historical analogy, this is a quite a tweet from the editor of a magazine (@firstthingsmag) that advocates for "human dignity, "a religiously and morally serious culture," "responsible global citizenship," and "culture of personal and communal responsibility." https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/ rhampton7

Posting something does not necessarily denote agreement. It can be used as an example of an argument for which the present debate (in this case, this thread) has ignored, dismissed, or inadequately addressed. rhampton7

Asauber,

What about this: “The World Health Organization estimates that worldwide, annual influenza epidemics result in about 3-5 million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths.”

There are vaccines for flu, of course, and the virus is less transmissible and less deadly that SARS-Cov-2/covid-19. We are already approaching the middle of this range for known covid-19 deaths, and when you apply the same approach as teh WHO uses to estimate flu deaths (excess mortality) we would be well on the way to the upper-limit with herd immunity still very distant. orthomyxo

Rhampton, You still have not answered any of the questions. If you post something, it is tantamount to you agreeing unless you specifically disagree. You cannot pass it off on Ron Dreher or Eric Erickson. You posted it, you own it. You are claiming there are no treatments. Defend that position. The lockdown will also kill more than the virus, demonstrated by past severe economic downturns. So how does anything that postpones the return to normal activity and nearly full immunity actually not kill more people? That is. the position I am putting up for debate. If you disagree, defend it. Right now I am willing to defend the side that says masks and the lockdown are not helpful and very counterproductive. jerry

A new study suggested that men are less likely to wear face masks, despite the risk of COVID-19. According to the research, it appears that some people see wearing a face covering as a "sign of weakness." While the study showed that a lack of fear of COVID-19 may play a part in their feelings toward face coverings, it isn’t the only factor affecting men’s decisions to wear or not wear masks. “Men more than women agree that wearing a face covering is shameful, not cool, a sign of weakness and a stigma,” Capraro and Barcelo wrote. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/men-face-masks-sign-of-weakness-coronavirus rhampton7

It’s becoming clear that many activities we would not have given a second thought about doing months ago, now pose a risk with COVID-19. On March 10, a single infected individual participated in a two and a half hour choir practice with 60 other people. At the time special social distancing precautions were not in place and no one was wearing masks. From the contact tracing investigation, the health department was able to estimate that 52 people developed COVID-19 from one person, -- an attack rate of 53% among confirmed cases and 87% among all cases. Three people were hospitalized, including the index patent, two people died. https://www.clickondetroit.com/health/good-health/2020/05/14/coronavirus-spread-to-87-of-choir-group-from-1-infected-person-at-practice/ rhampton7

We have treatments, vaccines, and considerable immunity to the flu built up in the global population. That’s why we don’t have to a wear mask, though some choose to. rhampton7

"Because there wasn’t a deadly, very contagious virus on the loose with no established clinical treatment or vaccine available." What about this: "The World Health Organization estimates that worldwide, annual influenza epidemics result in about 3-5 million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths." https://www.medscape.com/answers/219557-3459/what-is-the-global-incidence-of-influenza Andrew asauber

Why did the general public not wear masks before COVID?” Because there wasn’t a deadly, very contagious virus on the loose with no established clinical treatment or vaccine available. Look at images from the Spanish flu. Wearing masks in public was common. https://images.app.goo.gl/KyYnAyGGQppKy3cA7 rhampton7

"Being nice to each other." Bob O'h, You don't need a nanny state to be nice to each other. Andrew asauber

Asauber @ 68 -

Right on cue with “What about people who want a nanny state?” lol

No, what about altruism? Being nice to each other. One reason I'm loath to criticise religion as a whole is because that's what a lot of religious teaching seems to be about. You should try it one day. Jerry @ 71 - I also used to live in Finland, a country without oil. Until Nokia, all they had was trees, salmon and water. Germany and Denmark (where I have also lived) also don't have oil. The UK, where I grew up, does. It's as much about what you do with the riches you have. Bob O'H

"Why did doctors and nurses wear masks before COVID?" "Why did the general public not wear masks before COVID?" And I think doctors and nurses still get viruses. And I think people vaccinated against viruses still get viruses. Andrew asauber

Read the posts again, that’s not me but Rid Dreher and Erick Erickson. Why did doctors and nurses wear masks before COVID? Same reason. To prevent passing on any possible infection. Remember, you may be infected and asymptomatic. rhampton7

Rhampton7, "a certain kind of right-winger" We don't believe, as you apparently do, that virtue-signalling or lockdown theatre prevents viruses from spreading. Andrew asauber

Are masks necessary? Or are they just putting off the inevitable or even counterproductive? RHampton seems to think that masks are necessary by his posting above. So I am asking him why? I will also ask him or anyone who wants to respond if flattening the curve is counterproductive? Will our immune systems be less robust by self isolation? There seems to be this world view that we must be completely free of new virus cases for our lives to be saved. It is just the opposite that we want a high. percentage to get the virus before we are immune to it as a society? Is the real threat to our lives not the virus and the social distancing or masks etc but the fact there is no recommended treatment by the medical establishment when promising ones exists. After all there are proposals that would limit deaths to .03% with proper treatment. Are all Rhampton's examples just saying we are doing it wrong? Is the real issue not the number of cases or the number of tests done but the suppression of treatment options. Before people go off on their high horses as RHampton has done, he should be able to answer these and other questions. And for some positive news MedCram has another video today on ANC and possible use of this additive for fighting the virus after it gets established. https://bit.ly/3fNJJKL We are starting to see a number of positive ways of treating the virus. jerry

do not understand, nor will I ever understand, why the presence of facemasks in the middle of a deadly pandemic, spread in part by spittle, that in two months has killed 80,000 Americans, is such a trigger for a certain kind of right-winger. Did you see that a prominent traditionalist Catholic lay leader compared masks to the yellow Star of David? It’s not just conservatives, of course. In Los Angeles, a security guard at a Target store today had his arm broken in a fight with two men who refused to wear masks inside, per the company’s policy. Somehow, I doubt those two thugs were familiar with the philosophy of Edmund Burke. Still, the fact that editor (R R Reno) of a religious and cultural magazine as distinguished as First Things would go off in public and call people who are trying to follow public health guidelines in the middle of a pandemic cowards — that is, guilty not of poor medical judgment, but guilty of one of the worst vices — is deranged. >> Erick Erickson >> @EWErickson >> Masks are not driven by fear, but by respect for the community around us. We don’t put our finger on the trigger of a gun because we’re afraid, but because we are responsible. This isn’t hard. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/ rhampton7

Right now in Canada people are getting checks in the mail to sit at home. And while for many its more then they were making flipping burgers, many businesses are shutting down for good. Three that I know of where i live are closing for good. The lockdown has pushed them over the edge. The impact for many is Huge, and the fear in many is unreal. They literally cross to the other side of the road when they see you coming, or turn around in the grocerey isle just to avoid you, how is this mentally healthy. our leaders should be ashamed. and for many in the world its life or death.. https://thewire.in/rights/bihar-starvation-deaths-lockdown reverendspy

I believe Bob O'H lives in Norway. Norway essentially has free electricity from hydroelectric plants in the mountains. It also has a nest egg of about a half million dollars per person from oil revenues. The total population is only 5.3 million people. It also has a vibrant tourist industry since it is a very pretty country. So it has a large amount of money coming in from outside the country for a small population. Nice for a very small group of people. But hardly a model for running the world or any social or economic policy for others. I could point to some counties in the US that similar economics. jerry

Bob O'h doesn't realize what he is saying. He's a programmed statist. When he says "What about people who want other people to be taken care of?" he means state imposition for everybody. He just can't admit that, even to himself. Andrew asauber

But how are you so sure that your brand of altruism is correct? It may be, and I certainly understand that you have genuine concerns, Fear is rampant But saying that Sweden’s approach of limited lockdowns and herd immunity is uncaring or misguided seems wrong as well. Do the Swedes not have compassion? I am very concerned of what the health and financial impacts of this shutdown are and will continue to be in the days and years to come. And it bothers me when I'm told that I am uncaring or that we need to listen to the science, when the directives and estimates from the WHO and people in charge have been wrong almost every step of the way reverendspy

Bob O'h Right on cue with "What about people who want a nanny state?" lol Andrew asauber

reverendspy, The computer/tv screen is now where virtual graven images are worshipped. Brain cells are killed in exchange for... entertainment? We have discovered the virtual gods are not happy with just killing some brain cells. They want more real meat. Andrew asauber

There are two types of people in the world. Those who want to take care of themselves, and those who want big government to take care of them.

What about people who want other people to be taken care of? Where does altruism fit into this? Bob O'H

The world has become a very strange place. It seems that people in the west are more and more willing to sacrifice their hard won freedoms at the drop of a hat. China (a totalitarian state) locked down 100 million people, and we do the same thing. When there is no science behind doing so, it seems that we’re all part of a big experiment. And most people seem perfectly fine with it happening. We now live in a culture of fear it seems. and I don’t know how we arrived at this place. Social media? The 24 hour news cycle? a steady diet of zombie/outbreak films? Criminals in jail are being set free and law bidding citizen who only want to support their families are being locked up. It’s strange times. Churches are shuttered while liquor and Pot stores remain open. Not sure if linking off site is allowed but this is a short very interesting video There are two types of people in the world. Those who want to take care of themselves, and those who want big government to take care of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMrLLWY_QaY reverendspy

Eighteen children in New Jersey have been hospitalized in recent days with an inflammatory syndrome believed related to coronavirus infection, state health officials said Wednesday. The newly recognized syndrome was first reported last week in New York, where 102 cases have been identified, with five deaths. Fourteen states are reported to have confirmed cases. https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/coronavirus/2020/05/13/nj-has-18-children-coronavirus-like-syndrome-like-kawasaki-disease/5184323002/ rhampton7

The number of New York City kids sickened with the rare Kawasaki-like inflammatory disease potentially linked to the coronavirus has jumped to more than 80, Mayor Bill de Blasio said Wednesday as he warned that there are still “unanswered questions” surrounding the illness. “ This number has gone up consistently in recent days from a point where we had literally no acknowledgment of this problem because health care professionals weren’t seeing it even just a few weeks ago,” the mayor said. https://nypost.com/2020/05/13/82-nyc-kids-have-kawasaki-like-illness-linked-to-coronavirus/ rhampton7

The city of Bergamo has the highest rate of infections and deaths in Italy, which makes the province of Bergamo a natural epidemiological setting where SARS-CoV-2 infections appeared earlier and were more evident. In the past month we found a 30-fold increased incidence of Kawasaki-like disease. Children diagnosed after the SARS-CoV-2 epidemic began showed evidence of immune response to the virus, were older, had a higher rate of cardiac involvement, and features of MAS. The SARS-CoV-2 epidemic was associated with high incidence of a severe form of Kawasaki disease. A similar outbreak of Kawasaki-like disease is expected in countries involved in the SARS-CoV-2 epidemic. Kawasaki disease is an acute and usually self-limiting vasculitis of the medium calibre vessels, which almost exclusively affects children.12, 13 In the acute phase of the disease, patients with Kawasaki disease might have haemodynamic instability, a condition known as Kawasaki disease shock syndrome (KDSS).14 Other patients with Kawasaki disease might fulfil the criteria of macrophage activation syndrome (MAS), resembling secondary haemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis.15 The cause of Kawasaki disease remains unknown; however, earlier evidence16 suggests that an infectious agent triggers a cascade that causes the illness. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31103-X/fulltext rhampton7

Nearly 200 workers at the Central Valley Meat Co. have tested positive for COVID-19, a Kings County health official said Wednesday. The Hanford-based meat packer had just 32 cases on April 22 but the total surged to 182 on Wednesday. More cases are expected. Central Valley Meat Co. continues to operate. The company, headed by CEO Brian Coelho, employs 900 people in two locations, Hanford and Vernon in Los Angeles County. The plant runs five days a week, processing more than 1,500 cattle a day. https://www.fresnobee.com/news/business/agriculture/article242714526.html rhampton7

The county says local, state, and federal agencies, along with Villari Foods, are taking action to protect Villari team members, mitigate further spread of COVID-19, and protect the food supply chain following a recent outbreak at Villari Foods production facilities in Duplin County, NC. Viillari Foods sells pork, turkey and other meat products. The company’s response efforts continue to evolve as new guidance and supplies become available. Most recently, the company has implemented protective face shields for production areas where physical distancing is not possible." https://www.witn.com/content/news/Villari-Foods-processing-plant-in-Duplin-County-impacted-by-COVID-19-570453591.html rhampton7

Maruchan Virginia, Inc., a company that makes ramen noodles, confirms seven employees have tested positive for COVID-19. The employees have been quarantined at home, according to the company. Maruchan said it will continue to work with the CDC and health officials to ensure the safety and health of the workers. https://www.nbc12.com/2020/05/13/employees-test-positive-covid-chesterfield-ramen-noodle-plant/ rhampton7

A Cargill protein plant in Chambly, Quebec, Canada, will temporarily close after 64 of its employees tested positive for the novel coronavirus (COVID-19). The number of positive cases is about 13% of the plant’s workforce, according to reports. The union representing workers at the plant, United Food and Commercial Worker... https://www.wattagnet.com/articles/40278-cargill-to-idle-protein-processing-plant-in-quebec rhampton7

Southwest District Health confirmed a cluster of positive COVID-19 cases in Washington County, ID on Wednesday. Several employees of Fry Foods, Inc. in Weiser, and some contacts outside the workplace are included in the cluster. “Fry Foods has closed their Weiser plant voluntarily,” said Douglas Arnold Wold, Fry Foods human resources manager, in a press release. “The plant will remain closed until the owners, director and Southwest District Health feel it is in the best interests of the plant’s employees and the community.” Fry Foods manufactures onion rings and other breaded and battered products for retail and food service, according to the company’s website. https://www.idahopress.com/coronavirus/weiser-food-plant-shuts-down-after-employees-test-positive-for-covid-19/article_9b563698-d09b-596a-b9ae-e3bc93edcdd8.html rhampton7

A Kansas plant that makes sausage has shut down after five employees tested positive for the coronavirus. The shutdown at the Johnsonville plant will affect about 230 employees. The doors closed on Wednesday, May 13. A company spokesperson said all employees will continue to get paid, and downtime will be used to implement even more aggressive safety protocols before reopening. Some new safety protocols include placing additional barriers between workstations where social distancing isn’t possible. The plant already had been requiring mandatory temperature check. https://fox4kc.com/news/sausage-plant-in-holton-kansas-shuts-down-after-workers-test-positive-for-coronavirus/ rhampton7

Outbreaks of Covid-19 are occurring in slaughterhouses in multiple countries around the world, from the Americas to Europe and Oceania. Experts are now saying that beyond the immediate meat supply shock and supermarket shortages, this will have long-term implications for our current food supply chain, and signals the need to urgently shift to a more sustainable and crisis-resilient system. Other countries with even more consolidated meat supply chains are also battling outbreaks, including in Ireland, Australia, Germany, Spain, Brazil, Canada and the United Kingdom. In Germany, there have been over 300 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in a single meat processing plant in Birkenfeld. Meanwhile, 949 cases were reported in an Alberta meat packing house in Canada and an estimated 70 cases confirmed at Melbourne’s Cedar Meats. The reasons behind the outbreaks in meat plants all over the world are said to be related to overcrowded working conditions, workforces made up primarily of migrant workers or marginalised communities living in communal or cramped housing, and that many factories have remained open until infections are detected. https://www.greenqueen.com.hk/virus-outbreaks-in-slaughterhouses-globally-exposes-meat-industry-danger/ rhampton7

At least 260 workers at Westfleisch's slaughterhouse in northwestern Germany have tested positive for COVID-19 in recent days, causing alarm at a time when the country is trying to slowly relax the restrictions that were imposed to curb the pandemic. The outbreak began shortly before Germany's federal and state governments agreed to trigger an "emergency brake" on relaxing restrictions when the number of new infections passed 50 per 100,000 inhabitants in a week — a threshold that Coesfeld has far surpassed. Authorities in North Rhine-Westphalia, where Coesfeld is located, have ordered all 20,000 workers in the meat industry tested for the new coronavirus and delayed the reopening of bars and restaurants in the region by another week. https://wjla.com/news/coronavirus/outbreak-at-german-slaughterhouse-reveals-migrants-plight rhampton7

Despite a growing coronavirus outbreak tied to the massive JBS Beef meatpacking plant north of Amarillo, the company has rejected the state's offer to test all of its employees. The state response team recently created to facilitate testing in the Texas Panhandle has checked thousands of workers at another nearby plant, but has not been allowed to test the roughly 3,000 employees at the JBS plant in Cactus, said Seth Christensen, a spokesperson for the Texas Division of Emergency Management. JBS Beef said it has "no plans" to allow targeted testing of its mostly immigrant workforce, the company said in a statement. At least one meatpacking plant employee has died after being infected and others remain hospitalized. Last week, Gov. Greg Abbott coupled his announcement about further reopening businesses in the state with the creation of surge response teams to address local outbreaks like those occurring in nursing homes, prisons and meatpacking plants. Officials have been tracking hundreds of cases tied to meatpacking plants in the Panhandle, which is now home to the highest infection rates in the state. https://www.kcbd.com/2020/05/13/texas-jbs-meatpacking-plant-rejects-state-effort-test-workers/ rhampton7

More than 200 workers at a Tyson Fresh Meats plant in Madison, Nebraska, tested positive for the novel coronavirus after facility-wide testing from May 1 to May 4, the company said this week. The Madison plant employs 1,467 workers and contractors, meaning that about 14 percent of the workforce contracted the virus. Madison County had 265 coronavirus cases in total as of Monday. https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/tyson-foods-coronavirus-outbreak-madison-nebraska rhampton7

Marfin -

Bob o H – Please define under control for me , how many deaths per week is under control.

I don't think that's how it's defined. Number of new cases is more important, in two senses: (1) that they are low enough that contact tracing can be done with the resources available, and (2) R<1, so the number of new cases is declining.

You just dont get it do you at the moment in Ireland we have one million more people on the special COVID 19 payment from the government and 40% or more of the population out of work , so how long do you think this is sustainable.

Economically, I don't know, but certainly for more than a few months. Ireland can always borrow money (I'm sure the govt. would prefer not to, but this is an extreme situation).

If they ease lock down measures on 18th of May as planned and numbers spike again do we go the back to this severe lock down and have 50%- 60% unemployment for who knows how long.

If the alternative is more deaths, then perhaps. Hopefully your government is more sensible than its neighbour across the Irish Sea, and so will make sure this doesn't happen.

Protect the vulnerable , let the less vulnerable make decisions for themselves , and will people die yes they will ,

Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury of making the decision for themselves. For people who aren't financially secure, re-opening the economy will pretty much force them back to work. If the government does that before it's got the epidemic under control, it'll basically mean more deaths.

but you are ok with forcing a lock down but not ok with forcing a ban on alcohol, junk food, and obesity , which we all know is a multiple time bigger killer, if you were really interested in saving lives you would demand the same draconian measures but you dont why is that.

Because a lockdown is temporary. I'd prefer it if we didn't have to do this, but I understand why. It's about helping each other. If i get infected with SARS-COV-2, I don't want to infect other people. And I might be infected but not be symptomatic, so I will willingly work at home, not go out much and when I do, I'll maintain social distancing and wash/disinfect my hands regularly. Bob O'H

Meat packing plants, not only in US but in Canada and Australia (haven’t checked elsewhere, are huge hotspots. Why? People close together for hours at a time is how this virus spreads. What does that mean? Stadiums, theaters, airplanes, factories, etc. will need to practice social distancing, install barriers between people, enforce wearing face masks, et al. in order to open. If they can’t do this and they’re not deemed critical and given indemnity, then they will be closed until there is a vaccine. rhampton7

Thanks for the response, Jerry. I take that as 'there isn't one'. Andrew asauber

What Quality Assurance process is in place for testing, diagnosing, attribution, and reporting of COVID-related stuff?

Zelenko is currently trying to test for antibodies to determine what percent of his patients had C19. He has original test results on 300+ but diagnosed the rest clinically. So this is a form of ensuring positive diagnosis approaches for those assessed clinically. As it is about 20% of those tested, test positive. So are the 80% wasted? No it is probably a good sign but eventually everyone has to get or become immune somehow. Testing 300+ million is not currently feasible. jerry

And I have a question that I presume has no answer, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway, just to see if someone has any kind of response or knows where I might find something that addresses my question. What Quality Assurance process is in place for testing, diagnosing, attribution, and reporting of COVID-related stuff? Andrew asauber

"You just dont get it do you" I think Bob O'h has been incapable of adjusting his thinking using his own judgement for quite some time now. He's programmed. Andrew asauber

Bob o H - Please define under control for me , how many deaths per week is under control. You just dont get it do you at the moment in Ireland we have one million more people on the special COVID 19 payment from the government and 40% or more of the population out of work , so how long do you think this is sustainable. If they ease lock down measures on 18th of May as planned and numbers spike again do we go the back to this severe lock down and have 50%- 60% unemployment for who knows how long. To have taxes you need income , there will be no income unless people are allow go back to work, and back to some degree of normality. Protect the vulnerable , let the less vulnerable make decisions for themselves , and will people die yes they will , but you are ok with forcing a lock down but not ok with forcing a ban on alcohol, junk food, and obesity , which we all know is a multiple time bigger killer, if you were really interested in saving lives you would demand the same draconian measures but you dont why is that. Marfin

There is a new arrow in the C19 treatment quiver. It is NAC. For the last 10 days MedCram has been examining the blood clotting/cardiovascular issues with C19. It turns out NAC may be an important preventative or treatment for the disease.

the lock-down ends when the virus is under control. Yes, there will be flare-ups, but that’s what the test and trace system is needed for, so that they can be contained.

A treatment is not mentioned. There can be no effective return to normal till there are treatments that are widely used and accessible. Containing is not possible with this particular virus.

It’s why I don’t mind too much living in a country with taxes on alcohol and sugar

I believe you said you live in Norway which essentially has free electricity from hydro power plants in mountains and nearly a half million dollars per person from oil revenues. Not possible many places so not complaining about taxes on alcohol and sugar is sort of meaningless given this.

if the country is going to shut down, then clearly people need help, supporting people who lose their jobs and income.

Money is not wealth so printing it or taxing it to help others fails to realize what the issues are. Wealth is the total number of products and services produced and what has happened is that this has been cut drastically. If we are to share in the reduced wealth or products and services, then we will have a situation where by a large percentage of the population is not producing anything and living off of others. Most will tolerate this for a short time but not very long as those with jobs then find themselves without income as their services or products are deemed not necessary. Wealth does not grow on trees, it is produced by people laboring sometimes by producing technologies and machines that help produce wealth. jerry

BobRyan - Do you want some help with those goalposts? if the country is going to shut down, then clearly people need help, supporting people who lose their jobs and income. Nothing I said affects that. Marfin - the lock-down ends when the virus is under control. Yes, there will be flare-ups, but that's what the test and trace system is needed for, so that they can be contained. FWIW, yes I know there are other diseases that are problematic. It's why I don't mind too much living in a country with taxes on alcohol and sugar (and where the gyms are cheap). There are less draconian ways to encourage a healthier lifestyle than bans. Bob O'H

MF, you have a point. And I add, evidence continues to mount that HCQ cocktails are able to buy time for natural immunity to kick in. The deeper problem is the obvious decay of social cohesiveness and rise of deep polarisation. Faction politics has consequences, including frustrating doing what is sound. KF kairosfocus

Bob o H, As we have seen is South Korea there has been a cluster or clusters in night clubs as soon as they open up again , this tells us the virus is not going away, so a question when do we end the lock down in a month , 6 months, a year ,5 years , if the virus is still here in 5 years with no cure or vaccine will the lock down on the same level as now remain in place. Secondly once night clubs open surely I can decide if I wish to attend these or not, I can also decide if I want to let anyone get within 2 metres of me, I have to be somewhat accountable for my own health. Lastly this holier than thou attitude about life and not wanting anyone to die is a nonsense, alcohol, smoking, over eating and lack of exercise shortens the lives of 1000 times more people than COVID 19 so why don`t we big brother that situation and ban junk food , alcohol, make people exercise,make people who are overweight pay more tax as these people are a huge burden on the health system. See post at 36 its the only sensible solution. Marfin

Why do those who have died of COVID-19 matter more than those who have died from committing suicide as a result of hearing nothing but doom and gloom. That is what is callous, along with ignoring the increase in spousal and child abuse. Callous is telling people who have no idea if they will still be living in their houses and apartments a month from now they do not matter. Callous is telling people who do not know how they will feed their families this weekend that they do not matter. A small percentage of the population may get the virus, so we must shut down everything to kill off more people through other means. Everything being done to fight a minor virus which is not a threat to the vast majority of the population is weakening immune systems, which will cost greater lives. Bob O'H isn't a very good atheist. Evolutionists are supposed to believe viruses take their natural order in the world, but he is too afraid to admit the truth. You cannot be a true atheist and be afraid of a virus at the same time. The weak die and the strong will live on. That is the basis of Darwin. BobRyan

BTW, I read this article this morning, which lays out what the experts are saying we should be doing. Basically, the way to re-open the economy is to develop a public health infrastructure to contain the epidemic ("social distancing, contact tracing, testing, isolation, and treatment"). The piece was written by someone who (unlike any of us) has actually worked on containing epidemics. Bob O'H

But if young people are at low risk of dying anyway, the damage created to them as a group by shutting down the economy makes no sense.

That's pretty callous towards those who have died, or who have survived after having to go to intensive care. There are also indications that there might be long-term effects of a serious case. Oh, and letting the epidemic run wild will kill more people, simply because it will overload the health system. It also ignores the problem that you can't totally isolate those at greater risk of a serious case, so increasing the prevalence in the general population will also increase contacts between people with the virus and those who are more at risk. The strategy you're suggesting is the one the UK took at the start of the epidemic, based on expert advice. They changed course when they realised it wasn't going to work. Bob O'H

Most people, as in 75-80% will never contract COVID-19. It is not as contagious as influenza. Naval vessels who have had outbreaks should have had it spread to everyone, or close to everyone, yet it did not happen. Those same ships, when an influenza outbreaks occurs, has a greater percentage of people who contract influenza. The Diamond Princess had a total of 9 deaths. A US naval ship had 1 sailor die. The person who came up with the projections people are using as gospel today, resigned in disgrace for getting things as wrong as he did. His projections are the sole reason the economy has been crippled at a global level. People who are otherwise health have been told they will die if they contract it and live in fear. We know that healthy people do not have to worry about getting COVID-19, since it will not kill healthy people. People in their 80s are recovering from COVID-19. It is not a death sentence to most people who contract it, which is a small percentage of the population to begin with. Projections and reality are two very different things. BobRyan

How many here thinks this virus is going away any time soon ?, how many here thinks money grows on trees ?, how many here thinks we can have any kind of society were nobody dies.? So the virus is here for the foreseeable, but money does not grow on trees and people do die, so what are we to do, well we lock down the most vulnerable , we let the least vulnerable get back to work and life, and we do our best to deal with the consequences, its the only reasonable option. Marfin

Over the weekend, six new cases were reported in Wuhan, the first in 35 consecutive days. None of the new cases were imported from overseas, sparking concern that the infection could still be spreading in the city where the virus is thought to have first emerged. In response to the outbreak, authorities in Wuhan will conduct city-wide nucleic acid testing over a period of 10 days, according to an emergency notice issued by local authorities and circulated by state run media outlet The Paper. The ambitious screening drive, described in the report as a “ten-day battle,” could see up to 11 million people tested — more than the entire population of Greece. https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/wuhan-to-test-all-residents-for-coronavirus-after-new-cluster-of-cases-emerge/ rhampton7

Andrew

Yes, people like Bob O’h, Rhampton7, and Ed George, have been programmed to believe that their betters (scientists, politicians, academics) will provide them with a wonderful world to live in, and that they just go along.

I am even worse. I am one of those scientists who tries to work at creating a wonderful world. You? Ed George

Denyse OLeary @ 18

Bottom line: In too much of the world today, Neil Ferguson types are the face of science and it ain’t pretty. I like to hope the world has had enough of that, thanks.

Ferguson's personal indiscretions say nothing about his scientific work but he is paying a price for them, as I think he should. If you are going to advise others about what is best for them, you should at least be following your own advice. The same could be said of a number of prominent Christian personalities who have fallen short of the moral standards they preached and who were, for some at least, the public face of the religion. I don't believe their shortcomings are representative of the faith as a whole any more than Ferguson's behavior represents science as a whole. Seversky

Asauber @ 16

Yes, people like Bob O’h, Rhampton7, and Ed George, have been programmed to believe that their betters (scientists, politicians, academics) will provide them with a wonderful world to live in, and that they just go along.

Unlike the sheeple that will follow to hell and back someone who sells them a MAGA hat and tells them he's going to make (white) America great again. Seversky

I apologize for 29 the comments at 28 absolutely makes me furious If the administrator wants to remove it I didn’t have enough time to remove it but I can understand AaronS1978

It's odd how far we stray from a simple point. In Canada (read the OP), the most vulnerable people were not protected. Everyone else was doing everything but handstands to fight the virus. That's a sign of a corrupt knowledge base. Compared to the COVID meltdown, the changes needed to protect the most vulnerable would have been easy to implement. So why weren't they? Be sure some of us will be looking for answers and ignoring many avenues of misdirection. By the way, if meat packing plants are a virus locus, what ties them together? Denyse OLeary

Because human life is supported by the economy if you destroy the economy you destroyed peoples livelihood, I can claim that you’re being callous and idiotic and you have no foresight So it is simply your definition of being callous Furthermore the disease is inevitable at least 78% of the population is going to catch the disease Now I can say that you’re uncaring and an unthoughtful person, And here’s why I don’t see your incredible amount of enthusiasm for the lives of those that die from cancer, I can say that you’re an uncaring and unthoughtful person for your lack of Enthusiasm for those that die from the water related disease, I could say that you’re uncaring and unthoughtful for every person that died from HIV the list goes on All of them have killed more people than Covid Then the fallacious remark that you made that I don’t care about some old weak people That is a disgusting statement that came out of your mouth and it is your assumption I probably take more precautions to prevent people from being infected by this disease then you do, I work around hundreds of people a day. The lion share of them happened to be elderly so how dare you make that comment that was an incredibly ignorant comment of yours. I take all of the precautions to make sure not one of them gets infected. My coworkers and I were complaining about the fact that these mass or rubbing the back of our ears raw Now I can assume (like you and your wisdom) You also don’t care for old people or people in general Try apologizing to a family that’s about to lose their home because they lost their jobs When you watch somebody who worked all of their life to build a small business and then you watch it go away and with it your income and your ability to live. But you needed to stay at home the home that you’re about to lose You can explain to my next-door neighbor who killed him selves after losing their job that you should’ve just stayed at home The suicide life doesn’t matter that’s not important at all we have to stay at home we have to live by the extreme means of staying at home There are so many lives that you just don’t think about when you do your little rants By the way it’s about 15 million babies that are slaughtered for the glory of abortion Call it a fetus, it’s still a human life And while we’re at it let’s times that number of covid infected by three and will also times the number of covid deaths by three add them to the other and it still won’t equal the same number of abortions So pardon me if I don’t think your opinion means anything So why don’t you take your what about-isms and your maybes and your fear mongering and toss it in the trash You and everybody else is going to get the disease it’s inevitable AaronS1978

@AaronS1978 Human life < Economy That is a textbook definition of callous. Who cares if a few old or weak people die as long as people aren't inconvenienced with such extreme measures like staying home or wearing a mask. How is that NOT callous? @Denyse OLeary I don't deny the distinction between intentional murder and passive indifference to letting people die. The point is in either case life is regarded as something to be wasted. Life is precious or it is not. Would you be fine with allowing people to deliver a fetus at 12 weeks and passively letting it die? Also, you're advancing the quality of life over sanctity of life argument for COVID-19 demonstrates anti-abortion arguments is not a red herring. David P

Ok it spreads we can’t stay locked down forever AaronS1978

A phase II clinical trial has found that a combination of three drugs — interferon beta-1b, lopinavir-ritonavir, and ribavirin — plus standard care is successful in treating mild-to-moderate cases of COVID-19. This three-drug combination also shortens the duration of viral shedding — that is, the period during which the virus is detectable in a person’s body and transmissible to others. The results of the new multicenter, prospective, open-label, randomized trial now appear in the journal The Lancet. The researchers recruited 127 participants between February 10 and March 20, 2020. These participants came from six hospitals in Hong Kong, China, where doctors had tested them for SARS-CoV-2 and obtained positive results. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-3-drug-combo-treatment-may-be-successful rhampton7

The coronavirus spread at more than twice the national rate in U.S. counties with major meatpacking plants in the first week after President Donald Trump issued an executive orderdirecting that they be reopened. Confirmed Covid-19 cases jumped 40% during the week following the order in counties with major beef or pork slaughterhouses, compared with a 19% rise nationally, according to a Bloomberg News analysis of data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. The counties accounted for 10% of new confirmed cases from April 28 to May 5 while representing just 7.5% of the U.S. population. Infections climbed even faster where slaughterhouses were outside major population centers, and may have a greater impact. The disparity underscores the extent to which the areas around meat processors — many located in rural regions far away from initial hot spots — have become epicenters of the virus. The data doesn’t address other types of industrial facilities that may be in those counties https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2020/05/12/297016.htm rhampton7

There are now COVID-19 outbreaks at 23 North Carolina meat processing plants, with 1,340 total positive cases at those plants, according to NCDHHS. Officials would not specify the names of the companies or detail numbers for every plant or county. However, some of the reported outbreaks are in the WBTV area. An “outbreak" is when a facility has at least two confirmed cases. https://www.wbtv.com/2020/05/12/nc-has-meat-processing-plants-with-covid-outbreaks-more-than-cases/ rhampton7

South Korea announced its biggest spike in coronavirus infections in more than a month Monday, driven by a cluster at Seoul nightclubs and forcing authorities to delay this week’s planned re-opening of schools. South Korean officials reported 35 new cases Monday, taking its total to 10,909, after recording only single-digit increases for eight of the preceding 12 days — many of them overseas arrivals. Now 86 cases have been linked to the nightlife cluster, the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said. the KCDC said there appeared to be multiple origins for the cluster, with director Jeong Eun-kyeong telling reporters people visited “different kinds of clubs” on “different dates”. “The majority of the visitors are not reachable,” said Prime Minister Chung Sye-kyun. “If you hesitate a single day, our daily clock may stop for a month. Please contact the nearest clinic or health centre right now.” https://themalaysianreserve.com/2020/05/12/new-nightlife-cluster-causes-spike-in-south-korea-virus-cases/ rhampton7

@denyse 15,427,466 abortions Call them a fetus as not to make some sort of personal attachment or humanize them The number rises like a second timer AaronS1978

AaronS1978, yes, dishonesty and confusion in the name of Science. That won't go unnoticed. Indifference to the importance of doing the right thing, so long as we can say we did SOMETHING!! Abortion is a red herring here. People INTEND to kill their kids in abortions. No one intended any other person's death in Canada, so far as I know, but stupid policies driven by foolish considerations doomed many seniors who might have had a few good years left and damaged the lives and prospects of many others for no good reason. I'm old enough to remember lots of serious epidemics and if we'd behaved this way back in the 1950s and 1960s, we'd be back in the Stone Age by now. Maybe some people never really wanted to leave. Denyse OLeary

Human fetus = human person The economy being destroyed results is millions of people suffering, and deaths No one is being callous, they are complaining this was to extreme and there was to much dishonesty about the virus. Which both are true AaronS1978

We don't need Einstein to realize virtually every argument used against abortion also applies to the old and/or immune-compromised people. So a few fetuses will die, schools must stay open. So a few fetuses will die, we can't throw young people out of work. So a few fetuses will die, we can't shut down and maybe destroy their businesses. So a few fetuses will die, we can't... Stop being so callous about life, unless you're prepared to change your views on abortion. David P

BobRyan at 13, I wasn't accusing you of authoritarianism . I am referring to the people who seem to genuinely enjoy the shutdowns and the shuddups that the crisis has generated. Bob O'H at 15: Of course social distancing works. If it didn't, the virus would need to be something quite different from what research suggests. But if young people are at low risk of dying anyway, the damage created to them as a group by shutting down the economy makes no sense. We could have done that when chicken pox and other contagions raged back in the Sixties, before the vaccines. I'm glad we didn't. Worse, in my own country, we didn't protect the people we had to know were more vulnerable. For several reasons, we allowed them to be at greater risk. Bottom line: In too much of the world today, Neil Ferguson types are the face of science and it ain't pretty. I like to hope the world has had enough of that, thanks. - d. Denyse OLeary

We don’t know if the current difference between Sweden and Norway is relevant. Flattening the curve may be just postponing the inevitable. Does everyone have to get it? Is flattening the curve actually causing more deaths than saving? In the US the health system has to a large part shut down and severe economic downturns lead to more deaths. Those promoting Zelenko’s approach claim a mortality rate of .03% if treated early. The current approach is several magnitudes more deadly because there is no treatment. Ask yourself why this simple treatment that apparently works costing a total $9 is being buried? https://bit.ly/3554Tik Is the reaction to the virus being driven by political money? Sharyl Attikson believes so. https://bit.ly/3fGElsC Has the campaign against HCQ cost thousands of lives? https://bit.ly/2A523i5 and https://bit.ly/2Wftsq1 jerry

"It comes from superstitious regard for science and uncritical trust in noise generated by experts." Yes, people like Bob O'h, Rhampton7, and Ed George, have been programmed to believe that their betters (scientists, politicians, academics) will provide them with a wonderful world to live in, and that they just go along. So, any pretense that they use their own judgement to arrive at their positions is just for show. That's why they are so predictable and repetitive. Never a stray thought out into the light. Andrew asauber

BobRyan - err, yes. half the population. Not 10-15 times less. And where do you get your age stat from? according to the CIA, the difference in median age is about 2 years. Bob O'H

Meanwhile, we flubbed doing one of the few things that would have made a difference: isolating the genuinely vulnerable.

But everyone is genuinely vulnerable, only some are more vulnerable. Isolating everyone immunocompromised and old, but letting everyone else roam free means that more younger people die. It also runs the risk that people caring for those isolated are more likely to become infected, and thus pass the virus on to these small isolated communities. Bob O'H

Denyse OLeary Nothing in my post suggests anything of the sort, nor has anything I've ever posted shown a leaning towards authoritarianism. I'm the one who has pointed out, numerous times, that states are violating the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution and committing an act of economic rebellion against the United States by putting an undue burden on interstate commerce. I don't believe anyone should be quarantined. This is not the Spanish flu, nor is it the equivalent of influenza. 500,000 people die every year from influenza. COVID-19 will probably come in around 400,000 deaths. Constant washing of hands, wearing masks, hiding in homes, social distancing, constant cleaning of surfaces works to weaken the immune system. The noise being generated by the elites is not based on science, but science-fiction. You will have an increase in health related problems when immune systems are exposed to environments they are normally exposed to. BobRyan

Bob O'H Norway has about half the population as Sweden and a younger average age by about 5 years. BobRyan

Sweden has not been putting any measures in place, including distancing. They were projected to reach 100,000 dead by May 1. It hasn’t even reached 3500.

Which is about 15 times as many deaths as here is Norway, where we have had social distancing etc. Curious, that. Bob O'H

BobRyan at 9: It comes from superstitious regard for science and uncritical trust in noise generated by experts. Add to that, a taste for authoritarianism among our social elite and its courtier media - and this storm is going to cost us plenty. Meanwhile, we flubbed doing one of the few things that would have made a difference: isolating the genuinely vulnerable. One question is, how many more of these will we go through before enough people wise up. One fears to think... They've been taught from toddlerhood to venerate "science"... Denyse OLeary

Ships, both civilian and military, are floating cities and outbreaks give us a lot of data we wouldn't otherwise have. That data tells us between 20-25% will contract the virus, which means 75-80% of a given population will never get it. Of those who do, most will not die. The Diamond Princess was filled with passengers who are overweight and older, yet only had 9 deaths. They cannot social distance on a ship, since there is no room. The passageways are narrow and everyone touches something an infected person touched at some point. If most people who come in contact, about 80%, will never contract the virus, and those who do will only see a small percentage of death, why is this being treated as if it's worse than influenza? Influenza is more lethal and easier to contract than COVID-19. The one who came up with the projections resigned in disgrace for being so wrong. Rather than continue to pretend it didn't happen, we should be wondering how projections led to fear and the crippling of the global economy. BobRyan

Sweden has not been putting any measures in place, including distancing. They were projected to reach 100,000 dead by May 1. It hasn't even reached 3500. Projections are based on science-fiction. Everything being done from quarantine to distancing, contact hand washing to wearing masks, is weakening the immune system. BobRyan

Sure https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ The problem with your comment is we honestly don’t know the truth we don’t know how long it’s been in the populace and we don’t actually know the number of infected but I can definitely tell you that the number of infected is going up and death rates going down Please stop calling people selfish they are denying science because they don’t want to except that this virus apparently the black plague reborn which it is not AaronS1978

Erick Erickson Twitter feed: When did the conservative movement get filled with a bunch of whiny little b*tches? Muh freedom! They are making me wear a mask. OMG I can’t go get drunk at my favorite restaurant. Give me liberty or give me coronavirus. Good grief. You people are grifty whiners. You just managed to stack up the whole of the federal judiciary with a bunch of liberty loving judges. If you really think you’re rights are being violated, file a f***ing lawsuit and the odds are really damn good you’ll get in front of one of those liberty loving Trump judges. But nope. You’d rather get on social media and declare the country has come to an end, our freedoms are gone, and you’re forced to stay inside. Get a grip. There’s a global pandemic and the same president whose leg you like to hump has wanted you to shelter in place. File a lawsuit or shut the hell up please. Your liberty is not at stake. No one is trading freedom for security per Franklin. We’re in a global pandemic where 75,000 people have died in TEN WEEKS and you’re a selfish a**hole who would rather deny the truth and lie about data. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1258905504438521857.html rhampton7

The Canadian experience where COVID-19 has killed more people in old age homes than any other country has raised another worrying statistic. Of the infections and deaths in the old age homes, a significant majority are from privately run homes. Ed George

The devastating effects on an economy of lockdown and social distancing measures is an extremely grave problem for the whole world and we need to find innovative solutions and quickly. But that does not undermine the importance of mitigation measures. The fact that the virus is most dangerous to the elderly and/or immuno-compromised is not the point. The problem is that we only know someone is infected if they are tested or if they begin to display symptoms. Before that, we have no means of detecting the virus. Those infected can walk around for days before the onset of symptoms, asymptomatic carriers could move around for weeks, in all cases shedding virus into the environment without them or anyone else knowing it. That is why we need the mitigation measures. Seversky

rhampton at 1 and 2: In Canada, the people who really needed to be socially distanced were not. The ones at much less risk, were socially distanced to the point of losing their livelihoods and short circuiting their eductions. If this is science, let's have less of it. (Read the OP). Denyse OLeary

Q: When you look at the footprint of COVID-19 in the United States right now, it's staggeringly large. Do we all have to kind of go back and get an accounting somehow of why this was able to spread in the United States to the incredible degree it has? What did we get wrong from your perspective? Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.) : Well, number one is there's going to be plenty of time to look around and point around, and I would expect that the entire presidential campaign of 2020, Steve, is going to involve some finger pointing. I don't think that solves the problem today. We need a vaccine. We need treatment. We need more testing. We have about 2 million tests a week right now. Dr. Fauci says we need 3 million. There's a hearing on the Hill this week, Lamar Alexander's HELP committee, and they'll have the panel of experts. Testing will be a big part of that discussion. When can more and more people get tested? What do we need to have in place so schools can open again in the fall? So, yeah, there's going to be a number of things. You know, The Washington Post did a story about the Center for Disease Control and the original round of tests which the Center for Disease Control violated their own procedures, which resulted I believe, in about a five week delay of advanced testing ... but we're going to be capable of doing 2 million tests a week, which moves it from just the symptomatic people that you and I were talking about earlier, to much more broad testing in the society and more frequent. Ultimately, we need to get to the point where you can test for the immunoglobulin to see not just if you have the coronavirus right now that you are a carrier, but also are you in some way immune. They talk about an immunity passport for some people that have the immunoglobulins built up. And how long is that going to last for? If you've had the measles, you know, you're protected for the rest of your life. We know you have the flu, you might get it again next year. So, there are different things that we need to learn. And we're still learning a lot about a disease that has caught the world by surprise and has impacted everyone in one way or the other. https://thehill.com/homenews/coronavirus-report/497142-coronavirus-report-the-hills-steve-clemons-interviews-sen-john rhampton7

Why do we social distance? Because research has shown that it works to slow the spread of the virus, which prevents hospitals from being overloaded, which means more people get effective treatment and survive. Don't believe me? Here's the paper that convinced me that social distancing, quarantines, and lockdowns work. "Flattening the curve" is not a cliche or a buzzword. It saved people's lives in 1918, and it's saving people's lives now. Is COVID-19 really no worse than a bad outbreak of the flu? It's far worse, or at least it has the potential to be. The flu has been around for years, and there's a lot of resistance already in the population. Plus, the flu does not spread nearly as fast as COVID-19, and there are preventatives (flu shot) and effective treatments available for the flu. COVID-19 is new, we are unprepared, and lots of people are dying from it. So far, more than a quarter million people have died from COVID-19. This isn't just a minor outbreak. Does that mean that this will be a bad as projected and therefore the shutdown is completely justified? Like I've said before, I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions, but here's what I know for sure: Social distancing works best when it's implemented before a major outbreak takes place, and it only works when you get a large majority of the population participating. When it works, it flattens the curve, making the shutdown look like an overreaction. http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2020/05/youre-being-lied-to-truth-about-pandemic.html?m=1 rhampton7