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Is there evidence for natural selection?

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From a new book Otangelo Grasso is working on – comments welcome:

I am looking for comments, if my conclusion is sound, that evolution cannot be a theory. It cannot be tested, on how natural selection influences differential reproduction and the fitness landscape. 
Is there evidence for natural selection?

According to Darwin’s Theory, the main actors that drive evolution, is natural Selection, Genetic Drift, and Gene Flow. Natural selection depends on variation through random mutations. Inheritance,  differential survival, and reproduction ( reproductive success which permits new traits to spread in the population).   The genetic modification is supposed to be due to: Survival of the fittest, in other words, 1.  higher survival rates upon specific gene-induced phenotype adaptations to the environment, and 2. higher reproduction rates upon specific evolutionary genetic modifications. Keep in mind that these are two different, distinct factors. It’s a fact that harmful variants, where a mutation influences negatively health, fitness, and reproduction ability of organisms diminish. These are sorted out, or die through disease. In that regard, natural selection is a fact. That says nothing however about an organism gaining more fitness  ( reproductive success )  through the evolution of new advantageous traits.

Definitions of fitness:
J. Dekker (2007): 1. The average number of offspring produced by individuals with a certain genotype, relative to the numbers produced by individuals with other genotypes. 2: The relative competitive ability of a given genotype conferred by adaptive morphological, physiological, or behavioral characters, expressed and usually quantified as the average number of surviving progeny of one genotype compared with the average number of surviving progeny of competing genotypes; a measure of the contribution of a given genotype to the subsequent generation relative to that of other genotypes
A condition necessary for evolution to occur is variation in fitness of organisms according to the state they have for a heritable character. Individuals in the population with some characters must be more likely to reproduce, more fit. Organisms in a population vary in reproductive success. We will discuss fitness in Life History when we discuss competition, interference and the effects of neighbor plants.

Three Components of Fitness.  These different components are in conflict with each other, and any estimate of fitness must consider all of them:
1.  Reproduction
2.  Struggle for existence with competitors
3.  Avoidance of predators  2

S.El-Showk (2012): The common usage of the term “fitness” is connected with the idea of being in shape and associated physical attributes like strength, endurance or speed; this is quite different from its use in biology.  To an evolutionary biologist, fitness simply means reproductive success and reflects how well an organism is adapted to its environment.The main point is that fitness is simply a measure of reproductive success and so won’t always depend on traits such as strength and speed; reproductive success can also be achieved by mimicry, colorful displays, sneak fertilization and a host of other strategies that don’t correspond to the common notion of “physical fitness”.

What then are we to make of the phrase “survival of the fittest”? Fitness is just book-keeping; survival and differential reproduction result from natural selection, which actually is a driving mechanism in evolution. Organisms which are better suited to their environment will reproduce more and so increase the proportion of the population with their traits. Fitness is simply a measurement of survival (which is defined as reproductive success); it’s not the mechanism driving survival.  Organisms (or genes or replicators) don’t survive because they are fit; rather, they are considered fit because they survived. 3

The environment is not stable, but changes. Science would need to have the knowledge of what traits of each species are favored in a specific environment. Adaptation rates and mutational diversity and other spatiotemporal parameters, including population density, mutation rate, and the relative expansion speed and spatial dimensions. When the attempt is made to define with more precision what is meant by the degree of adaptation and fitness, we come across very thorny and seemingly intractable problems. 

As Evolution. Berkley explains: Of course, fitness is a relative thing. A genotype’s fitness depends on the environment in which the organism lives. The fittest genotype during an ice age, for example, is probably not the fittest genotype once the ice age is over. Fitness is a handy concept because it lumps everything that matters to natural selection (survival, mate-finding, reproduction) into one idea. The fittest individual is not necessarily the strongest, fastest, or biggest. A genotype’s fitness includes its ability to survive, find a mate, produce offspring — and ultimately leave its genes in the next generation. 1

Claim: Adam Eyre-Walker (2007): All organisms undergo mutation, the effects of which can be broadly divided into three categories. First, there are mutations that are harmful to the fitness of their host; these mutations generally either reduce survival or fertility. Second, there are ‘neutral’ mutations, which have little or no effect on fitness. Finally, there are advantageous mutations, which increase fitness by allowing organisms to adapt to their environment. Although we can divide mutations into these three categories, there is, in reality, a continuum of selective effects, stretching from those that are strongly deleterious, through weakly deleterious mutations, to neutral mutations and then on to mutations that are mildly or highly adaptive. The relative frequencies of these types of mutation are called the distribution of fitness effects (DFE)5

R. G. Brajesh et.al., (2019): Mutations occur spontaneously during the course of reproduction of an organism. Mutations that impart a beneficial characteristic to the organism are selected and consequently, the frequency of the mutant allele increases in the population. Mutations can be single base changes called point mutations like substitutions, insertions, deletions, as well as gross changes like chromosome recombination, duplication, and translocation 7

Reply:  How can random mutations give rise to higher fitness and higher reproduction of the individuals with the new allele variation favored by natural selection, and so spread in the population? This seems in fact to be a core issue that raises questions. The environmental conditions of a population, the weather, food resources, temperatures, etc. are random How do random events, like weather conditions, together with random mutations in the genome, provoke a fitness increase in an organism and a survival advantage over the other individuals without the mutation? 

T.Bataillon (2014): The rates and properties of new mutations affecting fitness have implications for a number of outstanding questions in evolutionary biology. Obtaining estimates of mutation rates and effects has historically been challenging, and little theory has been available for predicting the distribution of fitness effects (DFE); Future work should be aimed at identifying factors driving the observed variation in the distribution of fitness effects. What can we say about the distribution of fitness effects of new mutations? For the distribution of fitness effects DFE of beneficial mutations, experimentally inferred distributions seem to support theory for the most part. Distribution of fitness effects DFE has largely been unexplored and there is a need to extend both theory and experiment in this area. 4

The above confession demonstrates that a key question, namely how mutations in fact affect fitness has not been answered. I go further and say: Darwin’s Theory can in reality not be tested, nor quantified. The unknown factors in each case are too many, and the variations in the environment, and population and species behavior vary too. It cannot be defined what influence the given environment exercises in regard to specific animals and traits in that environment, nor how the environmental influence would change the fitness and reproduction success of each distinct animal species. Nor how reproduction success given new traits would change upon environmental changes.  What determines whether a gene variant spreads or not would depend theoretically on an incredibly complex web of factors – the species’ ecology, its physical and social environment, and sexual behavior. A further factor adding complexity is the fact that high social rank is associated with high levels of both copulatory behavior and the production of offspring which is widespread in the study of animal social behavior. 

As alpha males have on average higher reproductive success than other males, since they outcompete weaker individuals, and get preference to copulate if other (weaker)  males gain beneficial mutations (or the alphas’ negative mutations) as the alphas can outperform and win the battle for reproduction,  thus selection has an additional hurdle to overcome and spread the new variant in the population. This does not say anything about the fact that it would have to be determined what gene loci are responsible for sexual selection and behavior, and only mutations that influence sexual behavior would have an influence on fitness and the struggle to contribute more offspring to the next generation.   It is in praxis impossible to isolate these factors and see which is of selective importance,  quantify them, plug them in (usually in this context) to a mixed multivariate computational model, see what’s statistically significant, and get meaningful, real-life results. The varying factors are too many and nonpredictive. Darwin’s idea, therefore, depends on variable, unquantifiable multitude of factors that cannot be known, and cannot be tested, which turns the theory at best into a non-testable hypothesis, which then remains just that: a hypothesis. Since Darwin’s idea cannot be tested, it’s by definition, unscientific. 

If fitness is a relative thing, it cannot be detected and proven that natural selection is the mechanism that generates variations that produce more offspring, and therefore the new trait spreads in the population. Therefore, mutations and natural selection cannot be demonstrated to have the claimed effects. What is the relation between mutations in the genome, and the number of offspring? What mutations are responsible for the number of offspring produced? If the theory of evolution is true, there must be a detectable mechanism, that determines or induces, or regulates the number of offspring based due to specific genetic mutations. Only a specific section in the genome is responsible for this regulation.

There are specific regions in the genome responsible for each  mechanism of reproduction, being it sexual, or asexual reproduction, that is:  

1. Regulation and programming of sexual attraction ( hormones, pheromones, instinct, etc.)
2. Frequency of sexual intercourse and reproduction
3. The regulation of the number of offspring produced

What influence do environmental pressures have on these 3 points? What pressures induced organisms to evolve sexual, and asexual reproduction?  Are the tree mechanisms mentioned not amazingly various and differentiated, and each species have individual, species-specific mechanisms? Some have an enormous number of offspring that helps the survival of the species, while others have a very low reproduction rate ( whales  ? ) How could environmental pressures have induced this amazing variation, and why?  That means also on a molecular level, enormous differences from one species to the other exist.  how could accidental mutations have been the basis for all this variation? Would there not have to be SPECIFIC environmental pressures resulting in the selection of  SPECIFIC traits based on mutations of the organism to be selected that provide survival advantage and fitness? ( genome or epigenome, whatever )  AND higher reproduction rates of the organism at the same time?

What is the chance, that random mutations provoke positive phenotypic differences, that help the survival of the individual? What kind of environmental factors influence the survival of a species? What kind of mutations must be selected to guarantee a higher survival rate?

The lack of predictive power of natural selection is due to different environmental conditions that turn it impossible to quantify the effects and measure their outcome.

Ivana Cvijović (2015):Temporal fluctuations in environmental conditions can have dramatic effects on the fate of each new mutation, reducing the efficiency of natural selection and increasing the fixation probability of all mutations, including those that are strongly deleterious on average. This makes it difficult for a population to maintain specialist adaptations, even if their benefits outweigh their costs. Temporally varying selection pressures are neglected throughout much of population genetics, despite the fact that truly constant environments are rare. The fate of each mutation depends critically on its fitness in each environment, the dynamics of environmental changes, and the population size. We still lack both a quantitative and conceptual understanding of more significant fluctuations, where selection in each environment can lead to measurable changes in allele frequency. 6

More problems: R. G. Brajesh (2019): The genotypic mutational space of an organism is so vast, even for the tiniest of organisms like viruses or even one gene, that it becomes experimentally intractable. Hence, studies have limited to studying only small parts of the genome. For example, experiments have attempted to map the functional effect of mutations at important active site residues in proteins, like Lunzer et al. engineered the IDMH enzyme to use NADP as cofactor instead of NAD, and obtain the fitness landscape in terms of the mutational steps. Other experiments have attempted to ascertain how virulence is affected by mutations at certain important loci in viruses. However, due to the scale of the genotypic mutational space, it has been extremely difficult to experimentally obtain fitness landscapes of larger multicomponent systems, and study the statistical properties of these landscapes like the Distribution of Fitness Effects (DFE). Attempts have also been made to back-calculate the underlying DFE by experimentally observing how frequently new beneficial mutations emerge and of what strength, but the final results were inconclusive. As a result, how the beneficial, neutral, and deleterious mutations and their effects are distributed, when the organism genotype is at different locations on the fitness landscape, has remained largely intractable.7

And more problems: Adam Eyre-Walker (2007): The distribution of fitness effects DFE of deleterious mutations, in particular the proportion of weakly deleterious mutations, determine a population’s expected drift load—the reduction in fitness due to multiple small-effect deleterious mutations that individually are close enough to neutral to occasionally escape selection, but can collectively have important impacts on fitness. The DFE of new mutations influences many evolutionary patterns, such as the expected degree of parallel evolution, the evolutionary potential and capacity of populations to respond to novel environments, the evolutionary advantage of sex, and the maintenance of variation on quantitative traits, to name a few. Thus, an understanding of the DFE of mutations is a pivotal part of our understanding of the process of evolution.  Furthermore, the available data suggest that some aspects of the DFE of advantageous mutations are likely to differ between species5

Conclusion: The effects of natural selection on differential reproduction cannot be tested, since too many unknown variables have to be included, and that cannot lead to meaningful, quantifiable results that permit a clear picture. 

1. Evolution.Berkley: Evolutionary fitness
2. J.Dekker: www.agron.iastate.edu/~weeds/AG517/Content/WeedEvol/NaturalSelection/natselect.html” target=”_blank” rel=”nofollow”>Natural Selection and its Four Conditions 2007
3. S.El-Showk: Natural selection: On fitness (2012)
4. Thomas Bataillon: Effects of new mutations on fitness: insights from models and data 2014 Jul
5. Adam Eyre-Walker: The distribution of fitness effects of new mutations August 2007
6. Ivana Cvijović: Fate of a mutation in a fluctuating environment August 24, 2015
7. R. G. Brajesh: Distribution of fitness effects of mutations obtained from a simple genetic regulatory network model 08 July 2019

Comments
Alan Fox @90, Here's some empirical evidence against current OOL, which is strong evidence for Intelligent Design: https://youtu.be/v36_v4hsB-Y?t=139 -QQuerius
November 3, 2022
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Jerry, you forget, as always, to produce, or link to empirical evidence supporting "Intelligent Design".Alan Fox
November 1, 2022
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never produced any evidence… No substantive answers come forth.
What an absurd comment! Argument by assertion that all evidence I do not like is irrelevant. No honest person could make such a statement. Look to the Caine Mutiny defense for an answer. Signed - the opposite of disingenuousjerry
November 1, 2022
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Unfortunately, you seem to have ignored all the posts by Jerry and many others here in which we have provided evidence for Intelligent Design.
Not true. I try and make a point of reading Jerry's comments as I find them entertaining. It's possible I've overlooked some that got sandwiched between comments by posters such as BA77, Kairosfocus, Related that I tend to scroll over. Jerry has never produced any evidence for "Intelligent Design" in the comments I've read. I keep asking for something, anything from ID proponents that would support ID as a valid, scientific hypothesis. I ask more specifically about FSCO/I and Dembski's CSI. No substantive answers come forth.Alan Fox
October 31, 2022
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Alan Fox @86,
. . . while at the same time being unable or unwilling to provide any evidence for “Intelligent Design”.
Unfortunately, you seem to have ignored all the posts by Jerry and many others here in which we have provided evidence for Intelligent Design. There are also answers described here: https://uncommondescent.com/comment-policy/put-a-sock-in-it/ See Intelligent Design is Not a Valid Theory Since it Does Not Make Predictions and Intelligent Design Makes No Scientific Observations How do you explain that even well-known scientists admit there's evidence for design:
Biology is the study of complicated things that have the appearance of having been designed with a purpose. – Richard Dawkins
Your assertion that we haven't provided any evidence for Intelligent Design doesn't make it so. -QQuerius
October 31, 2022
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Why don’t you take the best one or at least a very convincing piece of evidence and we can discuss it?
Oh, disingenuous one. You're on record here as refusing to look at any evidence for evolution, while at the same time being unable or unwilling to provide any evidence for "Intelligent Design".Alan Fox
October 30, 2022
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29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
Why don’t you take the best one or at least a very convincing piece of evidence and we can discuss it?jerry
October 30, 2022
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29+ Evidences for Macroevolution The Scientific Case for Common Descent Seversky
October 30, 2022
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There is a difference between impractical to test and untestable even in principle.Seversky
October 30, 2022
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Since Darwin’s idea cannot be tested, it’s by definition, unscientific
People have been saying that for years. No one cares.
anyone claiming that natural selection explains biodiversity makes that claim based on blind confidence and belief. Not evidence.
Again no one cares and this observation will go nowhere. They will say it’s cumulative over tens of millions of years. Then ignore it. Change the discussion and maybe it will go somewhere. The above have been standard objections for years.jerry
October 30, 2022
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Otangelo Here, as a syllogism: Large-scale evolution by natural selection is a non-testable hypothesis
Of course is not testable , why do you think they invented evolutionary /genetic "algorithms"? It's easier to code a software to do what you want to prove than "to convince" the nature to sing the darwin's song.whistler
October 30, 2022
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Here, as a syllogism: Large-scale evolution by natural selection is a non-testable hypothesis 1. P. R. Ehrlich (1988): In modem evolutionary genetics, natural selection is defined as the differential reproduction of genotypes (individuals of some genotypes have more offspring than those of others) based on the mutations they carry and the environment in which they live. Organisms that are better suited to their environment will reproduce more and so increase the proportion of the population with their traits. ( More reproduction of a genotype = survival of the fittest = measure of fitness) 2. T. Bataillon (2014): Obtaining estimates of mutation rates and effects has historically been challenging. I. Cvijovi? (2015): The fate of each mutation depends critically on its fitness in each environment, the dynamics of environmental changes, and the population size. We still lack both a quantitative and conceptual understanding of more significant fluctuations, where selection in each environment can lead to measurable changes in allele frequency.C. J. Graves (2019): Variable environments can cause the same allele to have differing effects on fitness depending on an individual’s environmental context. V. Ž. Alif (2021): Fitness is difficult to measure accurately. The metric of fitness is scarcely used because the estimation of an individual’s reproductive value requires long-term pedigree data, which is rarely available in wild populations where following individuals from birth to death is often impossible. D.Coppedge (2021): The central concept of natural selection cannot be measured. This means it has no scientific value. 3. The key question, namely how mutations in fact affect fitness has not been answered. Darwin's Theory can not be tested, nor quantified. The unknown factors are too many, the variations in the environment, and population and species behavior vary too. It cannot be defined what influence the given environment exercises in regard to specific animals and traits in that environment, nor how the environmental influence would change the fitness and reproduction success of each distinct animal species. Large-scale evolution is at best a non-testable hypothesis, which then remains just that: a hypothesis. Since Darwin's idea cannot be tested, it's by definition, unscientific, and anyone claiming that natural selection explains biodiversity makes that claim based on blind confidence and belief. Not evidence.Otangelo
October 30, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @78, Ok. Thus, it now seems that most intracellular transport is through microtubules rather than diffusion, right? -QQuerius
October 28, 2022
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@76 -- in talking about Brownian motion I was referring only to diffusion (and osmosis, a kind of diffusion). Transport by microtubules and other elements of the cytoskeleton are far more constraining and constrained -- and that's necessary for a structure to be functional.PyrrhoManiac1
October 27, 2022
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How did those reproductive adjustments evolve, since they are beneficial to the ecosystem but not beneficial to the evolution of individual organisms?
Good, but only part of what I am trying to express. Somehow there is something preventing the improvement of the species. I’m using the ecology as a limitation of change. The process of natural selection would not have the influence of the ecology in mind as a superior organism leaves offspring. But the real point is much, much bigger than this. Changes in the genome that lead to superior characteristics just won’t happen. They cannot possibly happen. A very interesting thing is that this claim has been made several times and no one disagrees. It is just ignored by both sides of the debate. Thus, the much more interesting thing is that no one is interested in a basic flaw of the supposedly main driver of Evolution. So is Darwinian Evolution self refuting or is the claim just pie in the sky? I find no logic against the claim. What are the forces preventing substantial change? Pointing to the ecology is just one piece of evidence that there is something that is limiting change. Is it the only reason why change must be trivial? Is there other evidence besides the ecology that shows that change must be limited? Then there is the obvious piece of evidence. That most people believe Darwinian Evolution is true. Using the atheist trope is bogus since most non-atheists believe it. Is the “beautiful theory” explanation at the root cause for this false belief?jerry
October 27, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1, Thank you for your contributions. By Brownian motion, I assume you're describing intracellular transport by means of diffusion, right? I've read that diffusion is a primary mechanism, but I've also heard of microtubules: Under Control Systems in the Living World, Nelson R. Cabej, in Building the Most Complex Structure on Earth, 2013, I read the following:
Intracellular transport of molecules and organelles is responsible for their delivery to destination sites. Since the transport takes place primarily along microtubules, it is important that the free (plus) end of microtubules finds the correct destination site. Microtubules are dynamic polymers that continually growing or shortening in length to probe and explore many regions of the cell at random.
Or are you suggesting that microtubules work through Brownian motion . . . or perhaps in concert with gradients in concentrations? -QQuerius
October 26, 2022
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Kairosfocus @50,
Jerry, I think Q is alluding to the wolves vs rabbits problem.
Exactly. And grass. The wolf population always trails the population of rabbits, and we know what happens when the rabbits introduced to Australia don’t have enough population control. There’s a damping effect of a more diverse set of predators and prey, but reproduction rates need to change to prevent increasing population oscillations followed by a crash that severely damages the carrying capacity of the ecosystem. How did those reproductive adjustments evolve, since they are beneficial to the ecosystem but not beneficial to the evolution of individual organisms? -QQuerius
October 26, 2022
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Otangelo @45, Miraculously, I found a reference in my first try this evening! In his book, Genetic Entropy, Cornell University research geneticist, J.C. Sanford, writes on pp 134-135
Once the mutation arises in one individual, it has to become “fixed” (such that each individual in the population will eventually have a double dose of that mutation).
so any specific desired mutation must arise many times before it “catches hold” in the population.
Our numerical simulations suggest a substantially beneficial mutation will still be lost about 99 out of 100 times (Sanford et al., 2015). Such a beneficial mutation must happen about 100 times before it is likely to “catch hold” within the population.
I've also run across other descriptions and estimates in other books, but I'm not going to press my luck, -QQuerius
October 26, 2022
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AF, nowhere have I identified sequence with function. There are however functional sequences, of glyphs or of steps of procedure etc. It is those that are being discussed. That WE currently lack the depth of knowledge of polymer chemistry to predict fold, agglomeration, modifications and function also does not change the fact that we observe actual AA sequences constructed step by step on instructions and see that they become functional proteins, i.e. by algorithmic action. What we do not yet know does not remove what we do know. I still believe Dr Tour is pessimistic and within a century likely we will be able to synthesise new life from scratch, building on what Venter et al have done. KFkairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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"Were I more computer-literate" Yet 'computer-literate' Darwinists who have tried to simulate Darwinian evolution on computers "have either failed or inadvertently cheated."
Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – Robert J. Marks II – June 12, 2017 Excerpt: “There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/ Robert Jackson Marks II is an American electrical engineer. His contributions include the Zhao-Atlas-Marks (ZAM) time-frequency distribution in the field of signal processing,[1] the Cheung–Marks theorem[2] in Shannon sampling theory and the Papoulis-Marks-Cheung (PMC) approach in multidimensional sampling.[3] He was instrumental in the defining of the field of computational intelligence and co-edited the first book using computational intelligence in the title.[4][5] – per wikipedia
bornagain77
October 26, 2022
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Just a reminder for KF that sequence =/= function. Were I more computer-literate, I could devise a program that would write DNA sequences that begin with AUG, then a random choice of codons excluding TAA, TGA, TAG then adding a stop codon after a number of codons biased around an average protein sequence length, say 300 or so aa's. There is no way as yet to discern putative function of the translated protein from a sequence length generated as I describe, other than synthesizing it and observing any biochemical activity. Sequence =/= function.Alan Fox
October 26, 2022
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PM1, we may debate organisms on the whole till the Egrets fly home to their roosts Saturday next week. Organisms start with cells, which are vastly beyond the tiny but crucial slice we are looking at, the process logic of chaining AA's toward proteins based on a stepwise process that starts, extends, terminates based on as we all know a succession of codons in mRNA fed into a ribosome. This is based on the genetic code and is recognisably goal directed, stepwise, finite and halts. That is enough to see a crucial part of the architecture of the world of life, its use of code [so, language and logic], also the presence of goals, where yes it also reflects deep knowledge of polymer chemistry. This is a class of synthesis that dwarfs what we can do but we can recognise what it is. Onward, if we can keep from accidents and abuses it doubtless transforms chemistry and technology. KFkairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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@68
PM1, what you think of organisms has little to do with goal in the narrow context of algorithms. What does the executed algorithm end up at if correctly run on reasonable start points and inputs, and what does it do in event of failure or emergency are basic programming issues. KF
Oh, sure, I pretty much agree with that -- though it is worth a moment's notice to realize that cybernetics in the 1940s-1960s was motivated by the idea that we can use the concept of an algorithm to give a mechanistic explanation of organismal teleology, and that's what inspired Mayr's concept of "the genetic program." The reason I've been carrying on about organisms here is because I don't think that organisms are like artifacts or machines, and that's why engineering principles -- not even computer science principles -- can help us really understand what they're doing and how they're doing it. The idea that organisms are basically just really complicated machines is the conceptual basis of what Descartes got wrong and everything that's followed from that error (including the assumption that biology is reducible to physics). I want us to go back to Aristotle's clear-sighted recognition that organisms are fundamentally different from artifacts, and develop theoretical biology on that basis. This is the approach taken by Stephen Talbott and J. Scott Turner -- names that I know are respected (if not admired) by the UD regulars.PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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PM1, what you think of organisms has little to do with goal in the narrow context of algorithms. What does the executed algorithm end up at if correctly run on reasonable start points and inputs, and what does it do in event of failure or emergency are basic programming issues. KFkairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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@66:
PM1, a goal is an end state that meets certain criteria of acceptable achievement, which may be as basic as restraining failure from ruinous consequences. Functions are different from goals, though they may be involved. I simply noted that “the production of new proteins ” implies the presence of a goal.
I think of goals as (first and foremost) what organisms are attempting to achieve in order to satisfy their needs. Goals can be subordinate to one another, e.g. I'm going to store to buy some eggs in order to bake some cookies in order to do something nice for my co-workers in order to ____. (And as we know, the question of whether there is a final goal or summum bonum is one of the most important questions in Western philosophy.) Functions, then, are what sub-systems have that tend to contribute to the realization of a goal. So, I would say that the function of the heart is to pump blood, not that the heart has the goal of pumping blood. But the function of the heart is to pump blood, and not to make a thump-thump sound, because the pumping of blood contributes to the continued biological existence of the organism, and the thump-thump sound does not. (Some philosophers have argued that the heart has the function of pumping blood, and not a function of making a thump-thump sound, because in the evolutionary past, organisms with pumping hearts tended to be more fit and pass that trait along to subsequent generations. I'm deeply skeptical of the idea that selection can explain functions -- though selection has other explanatory purposes. Put otherwise, I don't think that evolution can explain teleology, and it was a colossal blunder of 20th century biology to think that it can.) If we're OK with that, then I'd say that protein synthesis is much the same as the pumping of the heart -- it has a function, and things that have functions can also malfunction, but the functions need to be understood in light of the goals -- of the cell or of the organism as a whole. @64
If you haven’t already seen them, you may find the series of posts on Larry Moran’s blog Sandwalk under the heading “The Function Wars” useful.
Thanks for that! Very interesting. I guess I'm more sympathetic than Moran to the idea that we can figure out the explanatory priority between causal role accounts or selected effect accounts, but I'm open to agreeing with him that in many cases (e.g. genomics research) it doesn't matter all that much.PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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PM1, a goal is an end state that meets certain criteria of acceptable achievement, which may be as basic as restraining failure from ruinous consequences. Functions are different from goals, though they may be involved. I simply noted that "the production of new proteins " implies the presence of a goal. As to producing endless hyperskeptical debates over the meaning of function, notice what Wiki confesses "Proteins perform a number of critical functions as enzymes, structural proteins or hormones" and, on the first, "to function as an enzyme the polypeptide chain must fold correctly to produce a functional active site" then noting "Misfolded proteins are often implicated in disease as improperly folded proteins have a tendency to stick together to form dense protein clumps." where "These clumps are linked to a range of diseases, often neurological, including Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s disease." Hyperskeptical rhetorical games here run into observable and sometimes harsh realities. KFkairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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From Behe's book, Darwin Devolves. The new Function Wars (Referred to above)
A few years ago I reviewed research done on laboratory evolution of microbes (including the work of the Michigan State lab done to that point) for a journal called the Quarterly Review of Biology. The article was titled "Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations, and 'The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution. "" The goal was to reexamine lab evolution work from the past four decades and evaluate it in terms of the mode in which the microbes evolved. As Darwin himself knew, there are three very general ways in which an organism can adapt: (1) it can gain a new ability; (2) it can lose an old one; or (3) it can tweak or modify something it already has. Because evolution can proceed in any one of those three ways, it's a question of profound importance to science to determine which one tends to predominate. But when we try to categorize evolutionary events, we quickly run into a problem. What superficially looks like a gain or loss can actually be the opposite at the molecular level-a level Darwin and his contemporaries knew nothing about. To bring badly needed clarity to evaluating mutations, I divided them into three categories depending on how any particular change affected what I termed a "Functional Coded elemenT" or "FCT" (pronounced "fact"). A FCT is a stretch of information-bearing sequence that encodes a defined feature in either DNA or protein. Examples of FCTs are genes, control regions, protein-binding sites, protein modification sites, and other such features. A given mutation, then, can either make a new FCT (which I dubbed a gain-of-FCT mutation), destroy an old one (loss-of-FCT mutation), or do something else-either tweak an old FCT in a way that leaves it still working or affect some non coded feature of a cell (which I called a modification-of-function mutation). Some mutations can be ambiguous and hard to classify, but most are straightforward.
Is Behe's book, the ultimate guide to what's possible through Darwinian natural selection?jerry
October 26, 2022
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If you haven't already seen them, you may find the series of posts on Larry Moran's blog Sandwalk under the heading "The Function Wars" useful.Seversky
October 26, 2022
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@62 -- it seems to me that you don't distinguish between functions and goals. I infer this from your editorial insertion of "--> goal" after a description of protein synthesis. I would call that a function, and on my view, the difference between functions and goals is quite important. Would need to think about this for a bit about how I want to parse that distinction and why it matters.PyrrhoManiac1
October 26, 2022
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PM1, I did not offer there a full orbed definition of algorithm. A short version would be a finite, goal directed stepwise process with start and halting. Start implies a beginning state, which embraces initial conditions, stepwise implies cumulative discrete stages which can include inputs, storage, processing, outputs, actuations etc. This implies a certain recursiveness i.e. a fetch decode execute cycle, but looping, branching or a program calling itself repeatedly are not necessary parts of an algorithm, never mind the 80% of time in loops issue. Halting and finite imply termination conditions for completion or failing or emergency etc. I need not go into Turing machines, the IPO framework etc, or even that programming is coding of algorithms that act on structured data. I excerpt below on protein synthesis, which of course shows the relevant naturally evident goal. I note that the algorithms in mind are those that form AA chains, based on codon sequences in mRNA in ribosomes and using tRNA. That is quite enough, whatever else may go on. KF PS, Wikipedia confesses by way of admitting the general consensus:
Protein biosynthesis (or protein synthesis) is a core biological process, occurring inside cells, balancing the loss of cellular proteins (via degradation or export) through the production of new proteins [--> goal]. Proteins perform a number of critical functions [--> information and configuration based function] as enzymes, structural proteins or hormones. Protein synthesis is a very similar process for both prokaryotes and eukaryotes but there are some distinct differences.[1] Protein synthesis can be divided broadly into two phases - transcription and translation [--> language and code terms, of course there is also editing] . During transcription, a section of DNA encoding a protein [--> the coded algorithm], known as a gene, is converted into a template molecule called messenger RNA (mRNA) [--> in actuality mRNA is a string data structure used to stepwise start, elongate and terminate the AA chain, step by step per coded instruction] . This conversion is carried out by enzymes, known as RNA polymerases, in the nucleus of the cell.[2] In eukaryotes, this mRNA is initially produced in a premature form (pre-mRNA) which undergoes post-transcriptional modifications [--> editing] to produce mature mRNA. The mature mRNA is exported from the cell nucleus via nuclear pores to the cytoplasm of the cell for translation to occur. ,b>During translation, the mRNA is read by ribosomes which use the nucleotide sequence of the mRNA to determine the sequence of amino acids [--> tepwise is skiped over] . The ribosomes catalyze the formation of covalent peptide bonds between the encoded amino acids to form a polypeptide chain. Following translation the polypeptide chain must fold to form a functional protein; for example, to function as an enzyme the polypeptide chain must fold correctly [--> naturally evident goal, i.e. teleology] to produce a functional active site. In order to adopt a functional three-dimensional (3D) shape, the polypeptide chain must first form a series of smaller underlying structures called secondary structures. The polypeptide chain in these secondary structures then folds to produce the overall 3D tertiary structure. Once correctly folded, the protein can undergo further maturation through different post-translational modifications. Post-translational modifications can alter the protein's ability to function, where it is located within the cell (e.g. cytoplasm or nucleus) and the protein's ability to interact with other proteins.[3] Protein biosynthesis has a key role in disease as changes and errors in this process [--> bugs], through underlying DNA mutations or protein misfolding, are often the underlying causes of a disease. DNA mutations change the subsequent mRNA sequence, which then alters the mRNA encoded amino acid sequence. Mutations can cause the polypeptide chain to be shorter by generating a stop sequence which causes early termination of translation. [--> halting, through the three stop codons, this is also arguably a failsafe, misalignment or misframing or random change is fairly likely to trigger a halt so there will not be a runaway process] Alternatively, a mutation in the mRNA sequence changes the specific amino acid encoded at that position in the polypeptide chain. This amino acid change can impact the protein's ability to function or to fold correctly.[4] Misfolded proteins are often implicated in disease as improperly folded proteins have a tendency to stick together to form dense protein clumps. These clumps are linked to a range of diseases, often neurological, including Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease.[5]
kairosfocus
October 26, 2022
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