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“It’s Emergent!” and “It’s Magical!” Have Equivalent Scientific Explanatory Power for Consciousness

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Bruce Buff and Robert J. Spitzer write:

But when it comes to the mind, this idea [i.e., emergence] has its issues. First, all scientifically observed emergence is actually unanticipated behavior resulting from known physical properties, and not new properties that exceed what physics can explain. Some materialists suggest that consciousness might emerge from physical processes on the quantum level, but any emergence there would be disrupted by anything that has an effect on quantum physics — such as holding up a cell phone to your head or getting an MRI. Simply put, emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts. It doesn’t matter how many Legos are assembled in incredibly complex arrangements, they will never generate a nuclear reaction. Just as radioactivity cannot emerge from the plastic used in the blocks, consciousness does not emerge from the physical parts of the brain.

Precisely.  Think about all of the usual examples of emergence:  hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.  Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.  In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways.  For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane.  Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.

Not so with mental activity.  While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain.  “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.

It follows that a claim that the mental is somehow an emergent property of the physical is a non-starter as any sort of explanation.  It is, as has often been observed, a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.  It is, nevertheless, a sufficient “explanation” for the already-convinced true believers of materialism.  Those of us of a more skeptical bent see a distinct lack of threads on that kingly body.

Comments
Yes, Corey, what I originally said meant they wouldn't be expressed as proteins. They would be expressed as mRNAs. And making the protein is part of gene expression. However some people think that just getting a mRNA means the gene was expressed. What I said @ 153 was due to my misreading and included missing START codons. It isn't my fault that you are too stupid to follow along.ET
November 15, 2017
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Since you don’t understand the basics of QM, I’m going to ask you this question
I just pointed out that you don’t know the basics of quantum mechanics. Namely that, at a minimum, there are multiple “basics” so your argument is parochial. Doubt this?
Imagine you have 70% of your brain surgically removed and yet after that ordeal you are fully conscious and functional… If your brain/mind/consciousness a computational entity, what kind of loss would you normally expect?
If it is a quantum computational entity...
Deutsch is mainly interested in the building of a quantum computer for its implications for fundamental physics, including the Many Worlds Interpretation, which would be a victory for the argument that science can explain the world and that, consequently, reality is knowable. (“House cures people,” Deutsch said to me when discussing Hugh Laurie, “because he’s interested in solving problems, not because he’s interested in people.”) Shor’s algorithm excites Deutsch, but here is how his excitement comes through in his book “The Fabric of Reality”:
To those who still cling to a single-universe world-view, I issue this challenge: explain how Shor’s algorithm works. I do not merely mean predict that it will work, which is merely a matter of solving a few uncontroversial equations. I mean provide an explanation. When Shor’s algorithm has factorized a number, using 10^500 or so times the computational resources than can be seen to be present, where was the number factorized? There are only about 10^80 atoms in the entire visible universe, an utterly minuscule number compared with 10^500. So if the visible universe were the extent of physical reality, physical reality would not even remotely contain the resources required to factorize such a large number. Who did factorize it, then? How, and where, was the computation performed?
Deutsch believes that quantum computing and Many Worlds are inextricably bound. He is nearly alone in this conviction, though many (especially around Oxford) concede that the construction of a sizable and stable quantum computer might be evidence in favor of the Everett interpretation. “Once there are actual quantum computers,” Deutsch said to me, “and a journalist can go to the actual labs and ask how does that actual machine work, the physicists in question will then either talk some obfuscatory nonsense, or will explain it in terms of parallel universes. Which will be newsworthy. Many Worlds will then become part of our culture. Really, it has nothing to do with making the computers. But psychologically it has everything to do with making them.”
The take away? Quantum computation is exponentially faster than classical computers because they harnesse the interference between a vast number of other quantum computers in other “classical” universes in the many worlds of theory of quantum mechanics. This interference occurs when there are only slight differences between universes. In your example, if brains are quantum computers, they would harness the remaining 25% of gray matter in every brain in every parallel universe that is nearly identical (the same surgery occurs to the same person to remove the same amount, etc.). Even after removing 75%, that brain would be utilizing more “processing power” than all the atoms in the visible universe.
Now, what is the only known mechanism to explain this real phenomenon?
There isn’t just only one. I’ve just provided an alternative that does just that.critical rationalist
November 15, 2017
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ET at 153: "Most likely most if not all existing genes wouldn’t be expressed" Just 3 ET comments later at 164: "I said the genes would be expressed, jerk" It seems you not only have no idea what you are talking about, but you can't even keep your own thoughts straight. I'm going to do us all a favor and go back to ignoring your clueless rants. Bye!Corey Delvine
November 14, 2017
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There’s also a recently discovered phenomenon where genes transcribe well past their normal end sites and splicing occurs in unannotated downstream regions.
As designed. No way we would expect to see that in a blind watchmaker world. I don't know how you can say you are some sort of expert on proteins and still adhere to evolution by means of blind, mindless processes. Do you really think all of the molecular regulation and codes can be reduced to matter, energy and what emerges from their interactions? If so how do you expect us to take anything you say seriously?ET
November 14, 2017
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What an arrogant loser you are. You can't even support what you say. And calling yourself an authority is beyond desperation. "Look at me! I'm an expert, I don't have to support what I say and I don't care if you believe me." Were not hugged as a child? Only a desperate loser would think what I said means I think what goes on in a cell is black and white. And only a coward would say such a thing and not back it up. I said the genes would be expressed, jerk. I also said there are mechanisms in place that would prevent them from getting translated. That is all true. So clearly you are juts some arrogant and ignorant punk. And I also said the genes get expressed in the organisms that don't have those mRNA check mechanisms and that most likely the resulting polypeptide would be useless, Also true. But there may be RARE exceptions to the rule. And your alleged expertise will never refute any of that with actual references. That binding sites are small means the chances of them getting covered are pretty good. And when a hand-in-glove fit is required the tail would definitely get in the way. Rare would be the case when all would be OK without STOP codons.ET
November 14, 2017
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It'll get spliced, and RNA pol will come off eventually, probably due to a collision with something else. That would probably be the biggest issue, as it could take a while in some cases to hit something. I know how proteins work and that issues arise when you end a protein early. But even ending it early doesn't mean it will lose function. There are a number of factors at play there. The chances of the tail covering something important are slim as structure is highly dynamic and binding sites represent a very small portion of a protein typically. I can just say stuff because I know what I'm talking about and also don't really care if you believe me. The bottom line is that genes will still be expressed. There's plenty of annotated genes that are the product of transcription continuing beyond its normal end site and combining two different genes. There's also a recently discovered phenomenon where genes transcribe well past their normal end sites and splicing occurs in unannotated downstream regions. What goes on in the cell is not in black and white like you see in your 2nd grade biology book.Corey Delvine
November 14, 2017
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That's wrong Corey. In most cases the mRNA won't get processed. That means it won't get translated. What is your evidence that most proteins with those added tails will still be functional? Why doesn't the tail cover the reactive substrate or stop it from connecting with other proteins to form the needed machine? Why do you just get to say stuff, not back it up with anything, and expect anyone to believe you? mRNA surveillance is an observed mechanism. mRNA processing is a real mechanism. Worth the effort? What effort? You haven't refuted anything as you say-so is meaningless.ET
November 14, 2017
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You're not really worth the effort ET. Anyways, bottom line is, the gene will still be transcribed and translated. The mRNA will have a long tail of extra nucleotides and the protein will have a bunch of extra amino acids. All the functional parts will still be there and for most proteins will be fully functional. You claiming it will not produce a viable protein is wrong in just about every case. Just another shining example of the lack of knowledge when it comes to biology here at UD.Corey Delvine
November 14, 2017
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Corey- Surprising you didn't chide me for my obvious reading error. My bad- apologies. Moving on- comments 134/35:
“gene expression would be in trouble if suddenly all the stop codons and termination sequences went away.”
Just curious, what do you think would happen to gene expression if this were to occur?
mRNA surveillance and other processing check mechanisms prevent mRNAs from being transported out of the nucleus if it is / they are missing the stop codon. In organisms without those mechanisms a very long polypeptide might be formed but it doesn't produce a viable protein.ET
November 14, 2017
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CR, Since you don't understand the basics of QM, I'm going to ask you this question Imagine you have 70% of your brain surgically removed and yet after that ordeal you are fully conscious and functional... If your brain/mind/consciousness a computational entity, what kind of loss would you normally expect? Now, what is the only known mechanism to explain this real phenomenon?J-Mac
November 14, 2017
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From the article on Wikipedia...
If correct, the Penrose–Lucas argument creates a need to understand the physical basis of non-computable behaviour in the brain.[citation needed] Most physical laws are computable, and thus algorithmic. However, Penrose determined that wave function collapse was a prime candidate for a non-computable process. In quantum mechanics, particles are treated differently from the objects of classical mechanics. Particles are described by wave functions that evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. Non-stationary wave functions are linear combinations of the eigenstates of the system, a phenomenon described by the superposition principle. When a quantum system interacts with a classical system—i.e. when an observable is measured—the system appears to collapse to a random eigenstate of that observable from a classical vantage point. If collapse is truly random, then no process or algorithm can deterministically predict its outcome. This provided Penrose with a candidate for the physical basis of the non-computable process that he hypothesized to exist in the brain. However, he disliked the random nature of environmentally-induced collapse, as randomness was not a promising basis for mathematical understanding. Penrose proposed that isolated systems may still undergo a new form of wave function collapse, which he called objective reduction (OR).[7]
"If collapse is truly random" makes the assumption there is a collapse. However, that is not the only interpretation of happens. From this Wikipedia article on the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics...
As with the other interpretations of quantum mechanics, the many-worlds interpretation is motivated by behavior that can be illustrated by the double-slit experiment. When particles of light (or anything else) are passed through the double slit, a calculation assuming wave-like behavior of light can be used to identify where the particles are likely to be observed. Yet when the particles are observed in this experiment, they appear as particles (i.e., at definite places) and not as non-localized waves. Some versions of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics proposed a process of "collapse" in which an indeterminate quantum system would probabilistically collapse down onto, or select, just one determinate outcome to "explain" this phenomenon of observation. Wavefunction collapse was widely regarded as artificial and ad hoc[citation needed], so an alternative interpretation in which the behavior of measurement could be understood from more fundamental physical principles was considered desirable. Everett's Ph.D. work provided such an alternative interpretation. Everett stated that for a composite system – for example a subject (the "observer" or measuring apparatus) observing an object (the "observed" system, such as a particle) – the statement that either the observer or the observed has a well-defined state is meaningless; in modern parlance, the observer and the observed have become entangled; we can only specify the state of one relative to the other, i.e., the state of the observer and the observed are correlated after the observation is made. This led Everett to derive from the unitary, deterministic dynamics alone (i.e., without assuming wavefunction collapse) the notion of a relativity of states. Everett noticed that the unitary, deterministic dynamics alone decreed that after an observation is made each element of the quantum superposition of the combined subject–object wavefunction contains two "relative states": a "collapsed" object state and an associated observer who has observed the same collapsed outcome; what the observer sees and the state of the object have become correlated by the act of measurement or observation. The subsequent evolution of each pair of relative subject–object states proceeds with complete indifference as to the presence or absence of the other elements, as if wavefunction collapse has occurred, which has the consequence that later observations are always consistent with the earlier observations. Thus the appearance of the object's wavefunction's collapse has emerged from the unitary, deterministic theory itself. (This answered Einstein's early criticism of quantum theory, that the theory should define what is observed, not for the observables to define the theory).[25] Since the wavefunction merely appears to have collapsed then, Everett reasoned, there was no need to actually assume that it had collapsed. And so, invoking Occam's razor, he removed the postulate of wavefunction collapse from the theory.
Agan, the key implication of the Deutsch-Church principle is that any object can simulate any other object. This would include simulation of the brain.critical rationalist
November 14, 2017
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CR @146 You just confirmed you are even more confused than I initially thought: "Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR) is a hypothesis that consciousness in the brain originates from processes inside neurons, rather than from connections between neurons (the conventional view). The mechanism is held to be a quantum physics process called objective reduction that is orchestrated by molecular structures called microtubules. Objective reduction is proposed to be influenced by non-computable factors imbedded in spacetime geometry which thus may account for the Hard Problem of Consciousness. The hypothesis was put forward in the early 1990s by theoretical physicist Roger Penrose and anaesthesiologist and psychologist Stuart Hameroff." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reductionJ-Mac
November 14, 2017
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For lack of better judgement, I will respond ET. It was originally just an interesting hypothetical question about specifically the loss of termination sites. And I would argue that gene expression would increase, not decrease.Corey Delvine
November 14, 2017
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Anyway, irrelevant to my argument for emergence #147. (See how meaningless that response is?)critical rationalist
November 14, 2017
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CR @150 Anyway, irrelevant to my argument against emergence #144.Origenes
November 14, 2017
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It is a given that if the start and stop codons went awry then at least some existing genes would not be expressed. Most likely most if not all existing genes wouldn't be expressed. It is hard to tell if anything coherent would be expressed. So what is Corey babbling about?ET
November 14, 2017
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Corey Devine @149:
And you’d be wrong little Mungy.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time, and almost certainly not the last.Mung
November 14, 2017
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@UB I see. You ask concise, direct questions, and I respond. But when I ask concise, direct questions, you do not. Now who's running away? Again, to your claim that I'm avoiding real-world empirical evidence.... I've asked you two questions. Or have you given up on that claim. What gives? For your connivence....
Q: Despite the fact that each of them suggest something completely different is happening, in reality, real-wold empirical evidence of a rocket launch into space is compatible with both Newton’s Laws of motion and General Relativlity. True or false? Q: Someone criticizing Newton’s laws of motion [say, in favor of GR] would need to avoid real-world emperical evidence of rocket launches into space. True or false?
Whether we consider something relevant or not depends on our understanding of the subject at hand. So, if you're mistaken about the subject, you can be mistaken about what's relevant to that subject.critical rationalist
November 14, 2017
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Yes, Origenes, I know what induction means. It is in reference to the concept of inductivism. The problem is, no one has managed to formulate a principle of induction that works, in practice. So, I'll ask again, how do you know what anything “has to give”?
Computer output can be understood in terms of their material components — e.g. as marks on a computer screen — or they can be understood in terms of their content, what they mean.
A Turing machine can be understood at multiple levels, which includes, but is not limited to, it's material components. That universality is emergent because of that higher level of explanation. The limited aspect of "computers" you just described is equally present in a pocket calculator that does not exhibit universality. It completely ignores the very key aspect of the argument presented. The universality I'm referring to is exploited by people to manage content but it is not content itself.critical rationalist
November 14, 2017
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"Genes wouldn’t be expressed." And you'd be wrong little Mungy.Corey Delvine
November 13, 2017
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CR@
CR: And how do you know what anything “has to give”? Is it by induction?
Do you even know what induction means?
CR: Do atoms or AND gates have universality, in the ability to simulate any other Turing machine, “to give”?
Computer output can be understood in terms of their material components — e.g. as marks on a computer screen — or they can be understood in terms of their content, what they mean. Yet computer output only has content because it is assigned content by a mind. With regard to my argument in # 144, I am interested in original content.Origenes
November 13, 2017
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@Origenes
Perhaps the most straightforward argument against the proposal that consciousness is an emergent property of matter is that a cause cannot give what it does not have. Mental properties have content, they are about stuff, and we do intuitively know that matter is not. Matter has no propositional content in the sense that it can be about anything.
And how do you know what anything "has to give"? Is it by induction? Do atoms or AND gates have universality, in the ability to simulate any other Turing machine, "to give"? A Turing machine represents a disproportional leap to universality that occurs when the necessary repertoire of computations are present. Nor did anyone initially set out to bring about this university. We stumbled upon it while trying to solve different problems. Furthermore, transistors, vacuum tubes and even wooden cogs are just as equally capable of this same universality. It's not clear that we would "intuitively know" that wooden cogs equally had universality "to give" in the absence of the theory of computation.
The problem for emergence is not merely that we do not see how a material object or group of objects could have content; it is that we do see that it could not have content
Again, this sounds like some kind of inductivism, in that the future will somehow resemble the past or that the unseen explanations we use to explain the seen must some how resemble the seen. But they do not. While we currently lack such a theory, it's unclear how we can "see" such a theory isn't possible. That's because the contents of theories do not come from observations. A theory of consciousness wouldn't be an exception.critical rationalist
November 13, 2017
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@ J-Mac I'm not confused. I've taken the quantum level into account in a previous comment.
The Deutsch-Church principle says that any physical object can emulate any other physical object via the process of quantum computation. This means that any quantum computer can simulate any classical computer, including a 6510 or an i7. This also has the implication that some other physical object could also simulate the physical object in our skulls – the brain – if it has enough memory.
The idea that it's possible to simulate neurons, despite them not being merely on and off switches, is based on this fundamental aspect of quantum physics. So, it's unclear what you mean when you say my "optimism hasn’t reached the quantum level yet," It's literally based on the theory of quantum computation.critical rationalist
November 13, 2017
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CR, You are very optimistically confused... You can stimulate a fraction of speed of an actual brain provided its operations are computational and they create consciousnesses... Unfortunately, your optimism hasn't reached the quantum level yet, where the possibility of consciousness has not been disproved yet .. Your optimism was crushed 20 years ago by Penrose in his book The Emperors Mind... Nobody in the right frame of mind has been able to challenge his and Hameroff's claims that if consciousness is emergent, it has to be at quantum level or even beyond... You are childishly naive... science has moved forward and you need to catch up....J-Mac
November 13, 2017
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Perhaps the most straightforward argument against the proposal that consciousness is an emergent property of matter is that a cause cannot give what it does not have. Mental properties have content, they are about stuff, and we do intuitively know that matter is not. Matter has no propositional content in the sense that it can be about anything. The problem for emergence is not merely that we do not see how a material object or group of objects could have content; it is that we do see that it could not have content — Leibniz’ mill comes to mind. It is a category mistake, as Plantinga points out:.
It’s a little like trying to understand what it would be for the number seven, e.g., to weigh five pounds (or for an elephant to be a proposition). We can’t see how that could happen; more exactly, we can see that it couldn’t happen. A number just isn’t the sort of thing that can have weight; there is no way in which that number or any other number could weigh anything at all. (The same goes for elephants and propositions.) Similarly, we can see, I think, that physical activity among neurons can’t generate content. These neurons are clicking away, sending electrical impulses hither and yon. But what has this to do with content? How is content or aboutness supposed to arise from this neuronal activity? How can such a thing be a belief? You might as well say that thought arises from the activity of the wind or the waves. [Plantinga, “Against Naturalism,” p. 54]
Origenes
November 13, 2017
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CR: What makes you think it has anything to do with the number of operations per second? J-Mac: I gotta start somewhere… If AI can’t match that, what else is there to be done?
I just described what else could be done. We could simulate it at a fraction on the speed of an actual brain - just like a slower Turing machine can simulate an exponentially faster Turing machine at a fraction of the speed given enough memory. IOW, it is the universality of computation, which is an emergent property of a specific set of computations, that makes that possible, not a particular number of operations per second. And when we can perform more operations per second than the human brain? We can run the simulation faster than real-time.critical rationalist
November 12, 2017
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CR, What makes you think it has anything to do with the number of operations per second? I gotta start somewhere... If AI can't match that, what else is there to be done? Human brain has been agreed upon to be the most marvelous and the most sophisticated object in the universe? Any ideas why it was voted as such? Don't forget this statement by Hameroff: "...AI is looking at neurons firing or not firing, 1,000 per second, 1,000 synapses. Something like the 10 to the 15th operations per second per brain… and that’s without even bringing in the quantum business. So that alone was pushing the goalpost way, way downstream into the future."J-Mac
November 12, 2017
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since the Intel processor is 1,760 times faster than 6510
That's just in respect to clock speed, BTW. The I7 is actually exponentially faster than then 6510.critical rationalist
November 12, 2017
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@J-Mac
Even if AI ever matches the abilities of the human brain in the operation per second...
What makes you think it has anything to do with the number of operations per second? Turing machines are universal. That means, regardless of the number of operations per second, they are still capable of emulating any other Turing machine, in principle. if one Turing machine was trying to emulate another faster Turing machine, it could still run the exact same software, but it would do so slower. For example the Commodore 64 was a very popular home computer in 1982. It had a 6510 1.023 Mhz microprocessor processor. it was so popular that a company bought the rights to the name and OS and built the Commodore64x, which could run the same software as the original. However, the 6510 microprocessor is no longer in production. Instead, they use an 1.80 GHz,, Intel Core i7 @ 2.2 GHz Sandy Bridge CPU. How is this possible, since they are different CPUs with different instruction sets? And since the Intel processor is 1,760 times faster than 6510, wouldn't the games run so fast, they would be unplayable? Since the i7 and 6510 are both Turing machines, they can run any program the other can via emulation. This includes emulating the slower clock speed of the 6510. In fact if the 6510 had enough memory it could emulate the i7 much slower, only at mere fraction of its full speed. And if it had even more memory, a 6510 could emulate a i7 emulating a 6510, even more slowly, etc. So, any classical Turing machine can emulate any other classical Turing machine. The Deutsch-Church principle says that any physical object can emulate any other physical object via the process of quantum computation. This means that any quantum computer can simulate any classical computer, including a 6510 or an i7. This also has the implication that some other physical object could also simulate the physical object in our skulls - the brain - if it has enough memory. So, even if we could not meet the same number of operations per second, we could simulate a brain at some fraction of full speed, Just as the slower 6510 could emulate a significantly faster i7, at a fraction of full speed.critical rationalist
November 12, 2017
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@138 Further to this... Even if AI ever matches the abilities of the human brain in the operation per second, (it is not likely, but let's assume) will that make the computer self-aware?J-Mac
November 12, 2017
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