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“It’s Emergent!” and “It’s Magical!” Have Equivalent Scientific Explanatory Power for Consciousness

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Bruce Buff and Robert J. Spitzer write:

But when it comes to the mind, this idea [i.e., emergence] has its issues. First, all scientifically observed emergence is actually unanticipated behavior resulting from known physical properties, and not new properties that exceed what physics can explain. Some materialists suggest that consciousness might emerge from physical processes on the quantum level, but any emergence there would be disrupted by anything that has an effect on quantum physics — such as holding up a cell phone to your head or getting an MRI. Simply put, emergence depends on properties that already exist in the system’s constituent parts. It doesn’t matter how many Legos are assembled in incredibly complex arrangements, they will never generate a nuclear reaction. Just as radioactivity cannot emerge from the plastic used in the blocks, consciousness does not emerge from the physical parts of the brain.

Precisely.  Think about all of the usual examples of emergence:  hurricanes, schools of fish or flocks of birds acting in unison, the wetness of water.  Now think about what makes all of these examples absolutely irrelevant to discussions of consciousness.  In the former, as Buff and Spitzer observe, known physical properties act in unexpected ways.  For example, the atmosphere acts in unexpected ways to form a hurricane.  Yes, it is extremely complex, but we can see how, in principle, the strong winds, lowered barometric pressure, etc. can be reduced to physical causes.

Not so with mental activity.  While no one denies there is some connection between a person’s mental state and his brain, it is nevertheless absurd to suggest that subjective-self-awareness, intentionality, qualia and other features of consciousness can be reduced to the electro-chemical reactions in the brain.  “Mental” and “Physical” are self-evidently in different ontological categories.

It follows that a claim that the mental is somehow an emergent property of the physical is a non-starter as any sort of explanation.  It is, as has often been observed, a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.  It is, nevertheless, a sufficient “explanation” for the already-convinced true believers of materialism.  Those of us of a more skeptical bent see a distinct lack of threads on that kingly body.

Comments
The OP suggested that referring to something as “emergent” isn’t helpful as an explanation for its existence.
And the very idea that it could have been helpful, but is not, is a category error. Of course if cannot be helpful because it’s not a concrete explanation. It’s like arguing a kind of footware isn’t a good way to keep your feet warm. Of course it’s not. You can’t wear a kind of footware. You can only wear concerete examples of footware, like an actual pair of slippers. This fact in no way means we do not have concrete examples of slippers. It’s a setup. Again, one way to attack an idea one finds objectionable is to present a false version of it, then point out how it is false. Of course, emergence isn’t an explantion, that’s a category error. This is an attempt to disqualify explanations at the level of emergence by assuming emergence is a concrete explation. It commits the fallacy of equivocation.
Congratulations. You’ve given an example of irreducible complexity. The need for all parts to be there for a system to work is true of essentially all functional, integrated, complex systems.
Huh? Computations are useful in and of themselves. You can build a device that lets you check your email. And another device that can calculate ballistic missile paths. So, it is indeed reducible in the sense because those computations have a function without universality.
What you haven’t given is any reason why the addition of the final part should make us refer to the system as “emergent”.
You seem to have confused having no explantion at all with and an explation that is not found at the level of atoms. See the Standford U material. Emergent explanations are higher level explantions that are not found at the level of atoms. A great majority of transformations of matter are currently untraceable. But the majority of problems that would prevent us from making progress due to this current untraceability are uninteresting to human beings. For example, I can solve the problem making tea despite the fact that the path of each water molecule will take when heated is currently untraceable. So, there is a class of phenomena that is quasi-antonomous, since they are nearly self-contained. The ability to explain things at this level isnt the same as not have one an explatnion at all, which you seem to imply.
What you haven’t given is any reason why the word “emergence” is of any value in this situation, why it brings anything to the table, why it should be considered as an explanation.
I just argued that the very idea of it being considered a concrete explanation is a category error! Emergent phenomena is a kind of phenomena, not an explanation. It is concidered emergent because our explanation for it isn’t found in any of its parts, not that it has no explanation at all.
What is also unclear is why you are so insistent on defending this concept of “emergence”, which has proven to be so useless and, as the OP notes, little more than “a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation.”
Huh? You’re the one perpetuating a category error! Why would I defend that? The point being, should we ever have an explantion for conscioness, it will never be at the level of atoms. This is because the explantion for phenomena need not be at that level. There are other levels of explanation which we have examples of, such as the univerality of computation, which is also not found at the level of atoms. Yet, there are no non-physical computers. So, this is a unreasonable expectation seemingly designed to disqualify the possibility of an explantion though equivocation. The question is, why do you keep “defending” this category error as a reasonable question?critical rationalist
November 7, 2017
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CR@92: "All of our experiences are theory laden" If so, then how can you be so sure that information always accompanies the physical? Heck "physical" is theory laden. We can't even agree on what that word means. We're bordering on solipsism. And your assertion "Just as there is no non-physical information." is losing its force and meaning. I guess we could go there, but its of no value in my opinion. I think we can just agree to disagree. As I grow older and wiser (hopefully!), I am becoming more convinced that information is the primal stuff and it can exist with or without the physical. Dembski's Being As Communion discusses this topic at length. I'll leave you with a quote from chapter 9 The Medium and the Message p.95 "We need information--we cannot do anything without it. Nonetheless, it is convenient to think of certain things as consisting of malleable material substrates that then get stamped with information. But completely malleable matter simply awaiting information but itself devoid of it doesn't exist. Matter, if not an empty abstraction, always assumes definite forms. It is always informational. And however intently we study matter, we find not matter as such but further patterns of information." juwilkerjuwilker
November 6, 2017
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CR: ... the universality of computation wasn’t an intentional outcome ...
You keep repeating this claim over and over and over as if intention matters to emergence. As if a property *emerges* (poof) if it is not intended by a designer. This is nonsense. There is no definition of emergence that includes a role for intention.Origenes
November 6, 2017
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critical rationalist @97: You've written much and referred over and over and over to this universality of computation. Yet you still haven't supported your original assertions. Let's review: The OP suggested that referring to something as "emergent" isn't helpful as an explanation for its existence. In your very first comment you stated: "You forgot the universality of computation, which emerged [emphasis added] from a specific repertoire of computations." You seem very impressed that a universal Turing machine requires multiple parameters and if one of those is missing it isn't a universal Turing machine. You write: "Add one computation, and suddenly it makes the leap to a universal Turing machine . . ." In other words, when all the parameters or parts are there it can perform a particular function (UTC in this case), and when one of the parts is missing, it doesn't work. Congratulations. You've given an example of irreducible complexity. The need for all parts to be there for a system to work is true of essentially all functional, integrated, complex systems. What you haven't given is any reason why the addition of the final part should make us refer to the system as "emergent". What you haven't given is any reason why the word "emergence" is of any value in this situation, why it brings anything to the table, why it should be considered as an explanation. Calling the creation of a universal Turing machine an example of "emergence" is just a semantic game. It doesn't add one iota of value to the discussion and doesn't actually explain what is going on. What is also unclear is why you are so insistent on defending this concept of "emergence", which has proven to be so useless and, as the OP notes, little more than "a confession of profound ignorance masquerading as an explanation." Your attempt to cite the universality of computation as an example of "emergence", and your continued harping on that example in the face of very simple and rational follow-up questions -- all the while continuing to hide behind "emergence" without actually analyzing the real underlying cause -- has ironically become Exhibit A in underscoring, demonstrating, and confirming the whole point of the OP.Eric Anderson
November 6, 2017
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UB at 103: CR is like a lot of materialists. They mistake the ability to type for the ability to make a cogent argument.Barry Arrington
November 6, 2017
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2000 more words. Still, no answer to either question.Upright BiPed
November 6, 2017
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What is consciousness? That is the key question we are asking here.
The question asked in the OP is: is emergence equal to "magic". But, it's not even clear that the author of the OP understands what emergence refers to, because he keeps perpetuating a category error. Nor has he presented any concrete examples of "materialists" using the term incorrectly. Even if he did, this wouldn't refute concrete examples of emergence he conveniently omitted, which fit this the definition and do not imply the existence of a supernatural realm.critical rationalist
November 6, 2017
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UB: First, CR’s dissembling and deception continue, as does his war on empirical facts. The words he attributed to me in the quote above were not written by me, they were written by him. Let that act sink in.
I prefaced the quote by stating "To use an analogy, it’s like you’re arguing for Newton’s laws of motion….". If I quoted what you wrote, it wouldn't be an analogy, right? Or do you think so little of the UD audience that they wouldn't know any better? Furthermore, note that you have't denied it was an accurate analogy. It's as if you merely denied saying the shoe doesn't fit, as opposed to denying that the shoe doesn't fit. Let that inaction sink in.
UB: Secondly, he apparently believes that using quantum mechanical phenomena to perform computations on data somehow changes data and algorithms into the subject(s) of the computation, needing no interpretation.
You might want to heed Eric and exercise caution here as well. Or, to put it in terms you might find familiar, 28 words without touching anything? I'm referring to quantum storage mediums, which are smaller than molecules and do not fit your "theory of information". It doesn’t scale. Furthermore, I would ask, what “interprets” the information which each of those aspects of the "arrangement" refers to, such as where to start translation? Is that information not be copied, such as when the cell is copied? Cannot you not describe that very same information in another storage medium in a computer or on a piece of paper?
Thirdly, he uses quantum computation as a distraction in order to avoid having to relate his theories to real-world empirical observations in biology.
See my analogy above. There are non-controversial real-world observations that we can launch rockets into space using Newton's laws of motion. Yet Newton's laws have been superseded by GR. And what non-controversial real-world observations brought about the adoption of GR? The Perihelion precession of Mercury, among others. You can’t build a GPS satellite using Newton’s laws. On the other hand, GR explains more phenomena, is deeper and suggests something completely different is happening in reality. Yet we do not need to redesign buildings and bridges. Just as the scope of Newton's laws does not scale to very high velocities required to build GPS satellites, your "theory of information" does not scale to the level of quantum storage mediums. Or to rephrase, the Perihelion precession of Mercury is to Newton's laws of motion, as to what quantum storage mediums are to your "theory of information". Of course, you will simply continue to ask the same question, which is like asking “can we not use Newton’s laws of motion to launch rockets”? Of course we can. That doesn’t change the fact that we see Newton’s laws as having been superseded and representing an approximation which is very narrow in scope.
UB: In order to organize a heterogeneous living cell, there must first be the capacity to specify an object, and encode that specification in a heritable medium of information. I assume we agree on that premise.
Cells contain knowledge, which is information that plays a casual role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium. In the case of cells, being retained refers to being copied into the next generation.
UB: Nature is entirely unambiguous about how this is accomplished.
Nature doesn’t “say things” about information, let alone “say things” in an unambiguous manner. Nor are explanations out there in nature for us to experience. For example, you can explain how to launch a rocket in terms of Newton’s laws. But that description doesn’t scale to very high velocities. However, you can use an different explanation, GR, which implies something completely different is going on, in reality, to describe both the launch of a rocket and the operation the GPS in your phone using GR. Correct? In the same sense, we can use one “theory” describe the storage of information in molecules. But that description doesn’t scale to quantum storage mediums. However, we can use a different theory, the constructor theory of information, which implies something completely different is going on, in reality, to describe both the storage of information in molecules and in quantum systems. And it does so in a more fundamental way. This is one of the motivations for constructor theory. A previous quote from a paper on constructor theory….
Some principles of the theory are suggested and its potential for solving various problems and achieving various unifications is explored. These include providing a theory of information underlying classical and quantum information; generalizing the theory of computation to include all physical transformations; unifying formal statements of conservation laws with the stronger operational ones (such as the ruling-out of perpetual motion machines); expressing the principles of testability and of the computability of nature (currently deemed methodological and metaphysical respectively) as laws of physics; allowing exact statements of emergent laws (such as the second law of thermodynamics); and expressing certain apparently anthropocentric attributes such as knowledge in physical terms.
No theory has presented a physical theory of information before constructor theory. Yet when you ask what is physically necessarily for information, it seems you don’t really want an answer. Be careful what you ask for?
We can all conceive of [the] significance [of aminoacyl synthetases] to the system.
Yes, I can. From the wikipedia article…
By mutating aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, chemists have expanded the genetic codes of various organisms to include lab-synthesized amino acids with all kinds of useful properties: photoreactive, metal-chelating, xenon-chelating, crosslinking, spin-resonant, fluorescent, biotinylated, and redox-active amino acids.[6] Another use is introducing amino acids bearing reactive functional groups for chemically modifying the target protein.
If aminoacyl tRNA synthetases can be mutated, it can be in different states. The details regarding those states represents knowledge. It can be instantiated in speech, stored on a flash drive, etc. IOW, it’s just more knowledge.
UB: They are synthesized from nucleic memory, and it stands to reason that there was once a time in earth’s history that none of the set of aaRS had ever been synthesized from that memory. Here is my question: Regardless of what anyone thinks preceded that time, at the point in earth’s history that the first ever aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory, how many of the other aaRS had to be in place?
A core aspect of Neo-Darwniwsn is that biological complexity grows via variation and criticism of some form, such as implied in natural selection. In the case of AARS, they would have evolved from an earlier precursor that performed a similar but different role. For example, we have already discovered that not all organisms exhibit the full complement of 20 AARS. The absence is possible because the role they play is not exclusive to AARS. From this paper.
A common misconception is that the genome of almost every organism contains a complete set of 20 AARS, each being individually responsible for coding the enzyme that charges a cognate tRNA with one of the 20 naturally occurring aa. With the ever-increasing availability of complete genome sequences, it is becoming evident that gene duplication, horizontal gene transfer, and gene loss are much more frequent events among the AARSs than originally thought. The absence of an AARS-encoding gene from a genome is possible because it does not necessarily correlate with the absence of the corresponding essential biochemical function. For example, the absence of glutaminyl-tRNA synthetase (GlnRS) is rescued by a non-discriminating glutamyl-tRNA synthetase (ND-GluRS) that can mis-acylate Glu to a tRNAGln, which is then modified to Gln-tRNAGln by a tRNA-dependent amidotransferase (3). Enzymatic modification of a mischarged aminoacyl-tRNA (aa-tRNA) is documented for Asn, Gln, Cys, selenocysteine and formylmethionine (4–8). Therefore, cataloguing all those cases where classical AARS genes are missing is a necessary first step in identifying known alternative pathways that enable cognate charging of the tRNA species for which the cognate AARS is missing. Genetic code decoding is a much more variable step than originally thought and needs to be quantified (9). There are numerous reports of genomes with more than one gene for the same AARS enzyme or even paralogous fragments consisting of free-standing domains of AARSs (e.g. catalytic-, anticodon-binding- and editing domains). These paralogs and paralog fragments have been the focus of intense interest since their gene products exhibit diverse functions outside translation. These range from tRNA-dependent aa synthesis, tRNA posttranscriptional modification, editing of misactivated aa and antibiotic resistance in bacteria, to molecular hubs within essential signaling pathways that regulate tumorigenesis in humans (10–16). Evolutionary analyses have highlighted the importance of horizontal gene transfer (HGT) in the evolution of the AARS family (17) and it has been found that this is often linked to antibiotic resistance, especially in microbes (11,18–21). The fact that bacterial AARSs do not often (22) participate in complex protein-protein interactions and that they are frequently compatible with tRNAs from phylogenetically distant organisms suggests that they are frequently functional (and hence selectable) following HGT.
Furthermore, I would again point out that the high-fidelity of replication in modern cells is not thought to have been present in the first primitive replicators. As such, mechanisms that are required for high fidelity are not required for those primitive replicators. Low-fidelity replicators would not exhibit the appearance of design and would not require the same kind of explanation as current day high-fidelity cells. And we have concrete examples of a gradient of fidelity nature. We’ve been over this before.
UB: The point of such question is to evaluate his original claim that Darwinian evolution is the source of the gene system. When it is pointed out to him that Darwinian evolution requires the gene system in order to exist (if A requires B for A to exist, then A cannot be the source of B) he simply refuses to engage the observations, and proceeds to dissemble with irrelevant comments and claims about constructor theory, epistemology, and quantum computation, etc.
See above. Furthermore, well, go on. What are you waiting for? This is where you explain why constructor theory, epistemology, defining what it means for something to have the appearance of design, the existence of quantum storage mediums, etc. does’t represent engaging observations, and is therefore not relevant, as opposed to merely asserting it. Let me guess, you don’t find it “interesting?” I mean, apparently, you think von Neumann’s work is relevant, but a generalization that achieved what von Neumann himself did not isn’t? Seems rather arbitrary to me. I guess it’s only relevant if it suits your purpose? From this paper on constructor theory.
2.4 Von Neumann’s approach Before the discovery of the structure of DNA, von Neumann (1948) wondered how organisms can possibly reproduce themselves faithfully and evolve complex adaptations for doing so. He realized that an organism must be a programmable constructor operating in two stages, namely copying its program and executing it to build another instance. He tried to model this using simplified laws of physics – thus founding the field of cellular automata – but without success: it was too complicated. He also introduced an important constructor-theoretic idea, namely that of a universal constructor (3.11 below), but he made no further progress in constructor theory because, by retreating to cellular automata, he had locked himself into the prevailing conception and also abstracted away all connections between his theory and physics.
[…]
[If] the principles of constructor theory that I have proposed [are] false…. Something else will provide an exact statement of the second law of thermodynamics, and a full statement of the content of conservation laws. A different approach will generalize the theory of computation and von Neumann’s constructor theory, and support laws about substrate-independent quantities such as information. And incorporate into fundamental physics the fact that the most significant quantity affecting whether physical transformations happen or not is knowledge.
BTW, “[If] the principles of constructor theory that I have proposed [are] false” refers to the discovery that it is not actually possible to express the entirety of science in constructor theoretic terms: which tasks possible, which tasks are impossible tasks, and why. However, significant progress has already been made in nearly all of those cases. Being able to make exact statements about thermodynamics is just one example, which is relevant to your claims about information, which is actually incorrect. So, go ahead, UB. Put your money where your mouth is. Why are my criticisms irreverent? I would note that objections which implicitly assume a specific role for observations represents a specific idea about knowledge, which is just one reason why epistemology is relevant.critical rationalist
November 6, 2017
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What is consciousness? That is the key question we are asking here. That is an ontological question not a scientific one. What is matter? What is energy? What is space… time? Etc. are also ontological questions. Take the claim that consciousness is reducible to or emerges from brain function. How do we know that until we answer the question, what is consciousness? Consider the following analogy. A portable AM/FM radio consists of a number of distinct specifically designed physical parts: speakers, switches, wires, transistors, resistors, capacitors etc. When organized in a specified way it able to function as a signal detector/ decoder that that is able to recreate encoded sound waves. That function is an emergent property. However, a radio does not create or explain music. Only a fool, or someone who is completely ignorant, with no understanding how a radio operates, would make such a claim. In a similar way unless you understand what consciousness is you cannot explain how the brain “creates” consciousness. It is logically possible that consciousness like music may have an explanation that’s independent of brain circuitry. The brain could be just a signal detector/ decoder of something that has an ontologically distinct explanation.john_a_designer
November 5, 2017
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A couple of quick points: First, CR's dissembling and deception continue, as does his war on empirical facts. The words he attributed to me in the quote above were not written by me, they were written by him. Let that act sink in. Secondly, he apparently believes that using quantum mechanical phenomena to perform computations on data somehow changes data and algorithms into the subject(s) of the computation, needing no interpretation. Thirdly, he uses quantum computation as a distraction in order to avoid having to relate his theories to real-world empirical observations in biology. Here are just two of the observations he has steadfastly refused to answer:
In order to organize a heterogeneous living cell, there must first be the capacity to specify an object, and encode that specification in a heritable medium of information. I assume we agree on that premise. Nature is entirely unambiguous about how this is accomplished. For each object to be specified, the system uses one arrangement of matter to serve as a representation within the medium, and a second arrangement of matter as a constraint to establish what is being specified. These two objects are well documented inside the cell; the codon in DNA and the aaRS in the translation machinery. How many objects does it take to specify something from a medium of information?
And...
We know that aminoacyl synthetases are the finite set of complex proteins that establish the genetic code. Their tasks in the cell is to perform a double-recognition and bind a particular amino acid to a particular tRNA adapter prior to the act of translation. We can all conceive of their significance to the system. They are synthesized from nucleic memory, and it stands to reason that there was once a time in earth’s history that none of the set of aaRS had ever been synthesized from that memory. Here is my question: Regardless of what anyone thinks preceded that time, at the point in earth’s history that the first ever aaRS was successfully synthesized from memory, how many of the other aaRS had to be in place?
The point of such question is to evaluate his original claim that Darwinian evolution is the source of the gene system. When it is pointed out to him that Darwinian evolution requires the gene system in order to exist (if A requires B for A to exist, then A cannot be the source of B) he simply refuses to engage the observations, and proceeds to dissemble with irrelevant comments and claims about constructor theory, epistemology, and quantum computation, etc. After repeated (and repeated) attempts to get him to engage the well-documented and uncontroversial physical evidence of the gene system, I moved on.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2017
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@Barry
CR appears truly to believe that the information in a book is a property of the paper and ink. Upright Biped has been explaining why that is not the case for a long time now. Go ahead and explain it to him again. You will get insane denial.
You might want to head Eric Anderson and exercise caution in your claims when throwing around fancy terms, like information. Upright Biped has yet to reconcile his "theory of information" with quantum mechanics. This has been pointed out to him multiple times, yet he continues to simply ignore it One example is here, in which he claims aspects of thermal dynamics somehow distinguish different kinds of information, yet they are not present in quantum mechanical systems. So, either quantum information is impossible, or his theory of information is woefully inadequate. Again, it's as if he is trying to argue for Newton's laws of physics from this comment....
To use an analogy, it’s like you’re arguing for Newton’s laws of motion…. UB: What does it take to launch rocket (Newton’s laws of motion)? You’re denying established knowledge! CR: Newton’s laws are an approximation that doesn’t hold at very high velocities. As such, you can’t use it to build, say, a global positioning system. Furthermore, Einstein’s explanation, the curvature of space time, is more fundamental. It assumes something completely different is happening, in reality, yet doesn’t require rebuilding bridges and buildings. UB: What does it take to launch rocket (Newton’s laws of motion)? You’re denying established knowledge! [repeat] Even then, Newton’s laws unified the motion of the planets and falling apples. That’s one of the goals in constructor theory, including and expressing certain apparently anthropocentric attributes such as knowledge in physical terms. From your website….
The Information Tetrahedron is a visual aid for understanding translation. It is a model of the material conditions required to translate any form of recorded information, including the information recorded in DNA. The translation of an informational medium enables the production of effects that are not determined by the material properties of the medium being translated. Instead, those effects are determined elsewhere within the system of translation. This relational architecture – with one arrangement of matter evoking an effect, while another arrangement of matter determines what the effect will be – establishes a physical discontinuity in the system. This discontinuity enables prescriptive control of effects that are not limited by local dynamics. Such effects can only be derived from the contingent organization of the individual systems that translate information.
Except, “any form of recorded information” would include quantum information mediums and this simply doesn’t apply. Is this not “accepted knowledge”? How can your argument hold when it only applies to classical information mediums? Or are you claiming it does apply beyond classical mediums to quantum mediums as well? Furthermore, those three things can be expressed as part of a network of tasks and subtasks in constructor theory. They represent knowledge. Apparently, you disagree with this despite having no concrete criticism of it. What gives?
critical rationalist
November 5, 2017
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First of all, you may want to exercise caution in your claims and when throwing around fancy terms like “universality of computation”, considering that several people here have backgrounds in computer systems and programming.
It's always a good idea to exercise caution in ones claims, such as when throwing around "fancy" terms, like emergence, without having a good grasp on what they mean, while trying to make an argument. Furthermore, the papers I'm referencing were developed by the same person who developed the first quantum algorithm and founded the field of quantum computation. He's the one being interviewed in the last video I referenced. So, It seems you should take your own advice.
The machine was specifically designed to that end.
You don't seem to be exercising caution, as you keep making the same flawed argument despite being corrected. Strangely, KF keeps making arguments based on systems that are not universal, or keeps ignoring the universal aspects of those that are, despite having pointed out the differences several times. So, I haven't seen much in the way of recognition of the field, at the level of computational theory. Some people here "use computers", doesn't really instill concern, except that they appear to be like people who drive cars, yet lack a deep understanding of the theory behind how they work.
Second, you have failed to properly define what you are talking about — thus my questions.
Again, your questions indicates that you don't have a good grasp either. You keep confusing emergence as if it has something to do with whether something was designed, as opposed to being a type or level of explanation. For example...
What can arise? The Turing machine? A Turing machine is designed. And a universal Turing machine is designed to run any possible computation or algorithm. Of course a computer doesn’t arise from the algorithms that run on it.*
Again, Babbage didn't set out to build a universal computer. Nor did Turing. They stumbled upon universality trying to solve a different problem. If you unexpectedly end up with something you didn't intend, it's unclear how you can say you intentionally "designed" it in the sense you're implying. Yes, people design computers to be universal today, but that wasn't the goal initially. Nor is the explanation for that universality found anywhere in atoms.
It isn’t as though the computations just happened to be there and just happened to produce a universal Turing machine.
Again, you still seem to be conflating emerge as if "it appeared unassisted", with emergence as a level of explanation. If people here actually are versed in the universality of computation, they would be aware of this confusion and correct you as well. Where are these people? Another example of your confusion?
You speak as though there is some magical property (we should think back to the title of the OP) that arises — emerges — when these computations just happen to come together.
The author of the OP seems to share your confusion. This is the category error I keep referring to. It's like complaining that a kind of footwear cannot be worn on your feet, therefore there are no examples of actual footwear, such as boots. Again, see the courseware from the Stanford U slides in comment #16. You seem to have had some objection to that definition and material, but didn't present any actual criticism. Rather you merely expressed incredulity due to some yet to be explained basis.critical rationalist
November 5, 2017
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EA, 91:
Information can, by definition and by our regular and repeated real-world experience, be translated into different symbolic systems. Nothing like this can occur with a physical object. Through a representation in a physical medium, information can be stored, retrieved, deleted, re-created, copied numerous times, translated again, etc. Nothing at all close to this can happen with a physical object.
Not only so, but the same info can be simultaneously present in multiple locations and coding schemes. For instance think of multiple computers with diverse architectures in a system using redundancy to enhance reliability. KFkairosfocus
November 4, 2017
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BA @93: Thanks for the background. Yeah, I'm starting to get that sense. If he has an inability or unwillingness to understand what information is, then there probably isn't much value continuing that part of the discussion. Maybe there is some genuine inability to understand there, I don't know. I suppose that would be better than intentional refusal. The thing that caught my attention as potentially inappropriate from a debating standpoint was this "universality of computation" business he brought up and kept harping on over and over. With fancy terminology and claims about computations, it might be something that others aren't quite comfortable addressing. I sensed that several other commenters weren't quite buying it and that they smelled something fishy. But CR kept harping on, as no-one was challenging him directly on that point, so I thought it would be helpful for the lurkers at least to call his bluff and nip this nonsense in the bud. I'll give him a couple more tries to say something more apropos of his screen name, and if that doesn't work, will leave him to his own denials.Eric Anderson
November 4, 2017
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critical rationalist:
Given that a Turing machine can run algorithms that have not been devised yet, it’s unclear how it can arise from algorithms themselves. Rather it’s ability to run any possible algorithm comes from a specific repertoire of computations. It’s a disproportional leap to universality.
First of all, you may want to exercise caution in your claims and when throwing around fancy terms like "universality of computation", considering that several people here have backgrounds in computer systems and programming. Second, you have failed to properly define what you are talking about -- thus my questions. The particular statement above, for example, is highly confused, again highlighting your failure to distinguish between the message and the medium. Let's parse it out:
Given that a Turing machine can run algorithms that have not been devised yet,
So far so good.
. . . it’s unclear how it can arise from algorithms themselves.
What can arise? The Turing machine? A Turing machine is designed. And a universal Turing machine is designed to run any possible computation or algorithm. Of course a computer doesn't arise from the algorithms that run on it.* The Turing machine arises from an intentional design process -- from a mind. The algorithms that run on the Turing machine also arise from an intentional design process -- from a mind. It is design all the way down.
Rather it’s ability to run any possible algorithm comes from a specific repertoire of computations.
Almost. But you're missing the real-world process that occurs. The reason a universal Turing machine is a universal Turing machine is because it is carefully designed to be such. The specific reportoire of computations is purposely designed and brought together to create the machine. It isn't as though the computations just happened to be there and just happened to produce a universal Turing machine.
It’s a disproportional leap to universality.
The machine was specifically designed to that end. You speak as though there is some magical property (we should think back to the title of the OP) that arises -- emerges -- when these computations just happen to come together. There is no more "emergence" in the case of a universal Turing machine than there is in the case of a house built out of simpler parts by a contractor. And in neither case is there anything at all arising without purposeful, intentional, planned, carefully-orchestrated design. ----- * Note, though, that an algorithm or extensive series of algorithms for production of a computer could potentially be written that would run on the computer.Eric Anderson
November 4, 2017
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Eric, CR appears truly to believe that the information in a book is a property of the paper and ink. Upright Biped has been explaining why that is not the case for a long time now. Go ahead and explain it to him again. You will get insane denial.Barry Arrington
November 4, 2017
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I I could choose a choir to “la la la” the notes/sound. I can even turn the volume up and down. And I can speed and slow the tempo. Go ahead, try it yourself. Its kinda cool.
Except not everyone has a "minds eye" by which they can achieve this. This condition is known as Aphantasia. Some people have never had this ability. Some lost it after brain surgery. Aphantasia is similar to conditions such as face blindness, word blindness. etc.
I’m sure this “experience/ability” I have is entirely due to non physical information. I”m reading no notes on a page, I’m hearing no sound waves. I’m not touching any vibrating surface.
You're sure? You do realize that our ears merely transmit electrical "crackles" to our brains. Just as our eyes only detect light. So we do not experience anything as it actually is. All of our experiences are theory laden. IOW, why can't you be replaying the results of those electrical "crackles" in your mind? Why is this not another example of information instantiated in some physical form. Because you can trigger it on demand?critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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critical rationalist @86:
Again, there are no nonphysical examples of information, just as there are no non-phyisical examples of computers.
Hello! Where did the message you intended to type come from? Certainly not from the machine you typed it on. What makes you think you can analogize a computer with information. A computer is a physical object -- a machine built for a purpose. That is not what information is. Information can, by definition and by our regular and repeated real-world experience, be translated into different symbolic systems. Nothing like this can occur with a physical object. Through a representation in a physical medium, information can be stored, retrieved, deleted, re-created, copied numerous times, translated again, etc. Nothing at all close to this can happen with a physical object. You have no idea what you are talking about and need to do some serious study of information theory and related principles. You are still conflating the message with the medium.Eric Anderson
November 4, 2017
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CR @ 89 "Just as there is no non-physical information." I beg to differ. Right now I can "hear" the Pachelbel Canon in D playing in my mind in Spanish. I can choose whether a piano is playing or a violin or a bass. I I could choose a choir to "la la la" the notes/sound. I can even turn the volume up and down. And I can speed and slow the tempo. Go ahead, try it yourself. Its kinda cool. I'm sure this "experience/ability" I have is entirely due to non physical information. I"m reading no notes on a page, I'm hearing no sound waves. I'm not touching any vibrating surface.juwilker
November 4, 2017
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Correction for #87
There are no nonphyisical computers. Just as there is no non-physical information.
critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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1. What on Earth does the existence of a universal Turing machine have to do with emergence? In particular as it relates to the topic of this thread.
The universality of computation is an example of an emergent explanation, in that emergence is a type of explanation, not a concrete explanation. Specifically, see #16
Sanford U: An emergent property of a system is a property that arises out of smaller pieces that doesn’t seem to exist in any of the individual pieces.
This is opposed to being something that happened "without a designer" or something to that effect. That seems to be a significant point of confusion here.
I am very near to calling your bluff on this entire concept of “universality of computation” you keep bringing up, but I’ll give you one more chance here.
Huh? Again, do you use separate devices to browse facebook, another device to check email and another device to read and post on UD? Is that somehow a "bluff"?
2. Does this universality of computation arise from the physical characteristics of the system, or from the immaterial informational concepts programmed into the system?
Given that a Turing machine can run algorithms that have not been devised yet, it's unclear how it can arise from algorithms themselves. Rather it's ability to run any possible algorithm comes from a specific repertoire of computations. It's a disproportional leap to universality.
3. Do you have any other examples of emergence like this, other than the universality of computation?
There are many more examples, a few of which I provided in #8. But I don't see why more than one is necessary to successfully criticize the dichotomy presented in the OP.
4. Finally, is the “emergence” of universality of computation just a descriptive observation of the result (without knowing the cause), or is “emergence” in this case referring to some kind of concrete, known cause?
You'll have to be more specific here, as it's unclear how this is relevant. Again, emergence is a type of explanation, not a concrete explanation. It's like a kind of footwear, not a specific instance, such as a boot, so to speak. You can't wear a kind of footwear. Nor does it have anything to do with the phenomenon being designed or not. Babbage's analytical machine was designed, but not designed to be able to run any algorithm because algorithms were not really flushed out until Turing came along. So, the universality of computation wasn't an intentional outcome, despite the fact that it was actually Babbage that designed the first Turing machine.critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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Strawman arguments are not just false.
Strangely enough, that’s what Barry has been presenting here. Emergence is not a concrete explanation, it is a kind or class of explanation. At best, he *might* yet be able to provide quotes from some yet to be identified “materialists” that are using the term incorrectly, (he hasn’t yet) but that wouldn’t somehow change the fact that we have concrete examples of explanations at the level of emergence, such as the universality of computation, which represent disproportionate leaps to universality. There are no nonphyisical computers. Just as there is no physical information. Again, surely Barry knows this wouldn’t fly at his “day job”, so I don’t know why he thinks it would fly here either.critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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@Eric Anderson
The fact that information can be represented by a physical system does not make the information material. Information is, by definition, not reducible to a particular physical system.
Again, there are no nonphysical examples of information, just as there are no non-phyisical examples of computers. But, if I got it wrong, feel free to point to an example of nonphysical information.
Information is, by definition, not reducible to a particular physical system.
This is where the universality of computation comes into play. Any Turing machine can run the same algorithm as any other Turing machine. This is why we no longer need one physical system to perform different tasks, such as one physical device to browse facebook, and another physical device to read email. And another physical device to read UD, etc. Before this theory, that's exactly what we had. Either we tasked an algorithm to a person, or we build custom hardware to execute that algorithm. However, in principle, Turing machines can run any algorithm that any other Turing machine can run, even if one is constructed with cogs, while the other is constructed with transistors. Furthermore, every step of the information in this thread as it made it's way between us has taken represented a physical instantiation of that information. There were no nonphysical in-between steps. See this paper for details of what tasks must be possible, which defines information.critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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critical rationalist @81, Strawman arguments are not just false. They are cowardly. This is why I try not to argue with materialists and Darwinists. See you around.FourFaces
November 4, 2017
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critical rationalist:
There is no non-physical information . . .
This is flatly, blatantly wrong. You need to do some serious review of the concept of information. The fact that information can be represented by a physical system does not make the information material. Information is, by definition, not reducible to a particular physical system.Eric Anderson
November 4, 2017
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critical rationalist: Thanks. As suspected, I figured you were referring to a Turing machine. Nice video about a universal Turing machine. Now, after having repeatedly brought up this "universality of computation" again and again on this thread, perhaps you will be so kind as to explain the following: 1. What on Earth does the existence of a universal Turing machine have to do with emergence? In particular as it relates to the topic of this thread. I am very near to calling your bluff on this entire concept of "universality of computation" you keep bringing up, but I'll give you one more chance here. Now, as to the other questions I posed, which you didn't answer: 2. Does this universality of computation arise from the physical characteristics of the system, or from the immaterial informational concepts programmed into the system? 3. Do you have any other examples of emergence like this, other than the universality of computation? 4. Finally, is the “emergence” of universality of computation just a descriptive observation of the result (without knowing the cause), or is “emergence” in this case referring to some kind of concrete, known cause?Eric Anderson
November 4, 2017
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@Origines
Yes there is. In abundance, I would say, since information is non-physical.
That's not an argument or an example of non-physical information. That's precisely what is in question, so It's an assertion which is not in "abundance".
If only because there is no physical explanation for complex specified functional information.
Huh? I'm not sure what the latter sentence has to do with the former. What is it <b?supposedly having no physical explanation for, say DNA, has to with DNA not representing an example of physical information. In fact, that is the criticism I've been presenting all along. One task that must be possible for information is that there is a reversible computation that allows it to be copied from one storage medium to another. IOW, for external information to be copied into a cell, to the genome of a organism, that requires the same information to be present externally in physical form. It represent a reversible computation. That's how copying works. So, I'd say that you are mistaken in that we do have and explanation that includes, at a minimum, physical information being present externally. Otherwise, what you seem to be describing is the spontaneous generation of information.critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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The funny thing about "materialism" is that it's an outdated term which represents a false dichotomy. For example, your entire argument at the referenced link assumes that depth, vision, etc. is not natural, yet makes no argument as such. IOW, "Supernatural" must assume that the aspects in question are somehow not natural. It's unclear you've reached that conclusion other than asserting it. Abstraction is occurs in nature without conscious beings. So, it's unclear how abstractions are not nature, even if we employ the outdated assumption that people are somehow distinct from nature.critical rationalist
November 4, 2017
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CR: There is no non-physical information …
Yes there is. In abundance, I would say, since information is non-physical. If only because there is no physical explanation for complex specified functional information.
CR: Furthermore, does the medical research community not consist of conscious, intelligent. agents? Have they not chosen to cure cancer? Are their actions and arrangements of matter not made with the intent to cure cancer? Are they not supposedly free in the sense that they are independent of physical laws? They are free in their decision to attempt to cure cancer. IOW, if what you’re saying is true, then why don’t we have a cure for cancer by now?
A silly old question which I have answered a couple of times already. Maybe there is no cure for cancer, maybe our current understanding of biology is insufficient, and or maybe they have not found it yet — and so forth. Why do you ask?
CR: Or to rephrase, why are the arrangements of some free, intelligent agents actually successful while the arrangements of other free intelligent agents are not? What’s the difference?
Why are we discussing the difference between good and bad design? Why is that relevant? As far as I can see, it has no bearing on the OP.Origenes
November 4, 2017
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The funny thing about materialism is that we experience the supernatural all the time. Why We Have a Supernatural SoulFourFaces
November 4, 2017
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