Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Letter to thinking Christians (and other theists)

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Writing letters to a broad public is all the rage nowadays, so I thought I would try my hand at it too:

Dear thinking Christians/theists/non-materialists,

Some people have expressed deep concern over the sudden surge in anti-God/anti-spiritual activists, opposed to traditional spiritualities.

Yes, it is a good idea to keep an eye on these anti-spiritual movements, but – based on decades of watching social trends and covering controversies – I do not think that these people should be our main concern. They are acting out of desperation. The materialism they espouse is simply not confirmed by evidence and not working in society either. Worse, even the most generous and favorable media attention has not made them look or sound attractive. More publicity will only deepen the hole they are digging themselves into.

In my experience, a far more serious concern is the gutting of a spiritual tradition from within. Along those lines, be on the lookout for the following trends, whether in your church mosque, synagogue, or whatever:

– Evolutionary psychology In some liberal Christian settings, I have noticed a growing interest in “evolutionary psychology” (God, it turns out, is that buzz in our genes that cause us to leave viable offspring.

Yeah really. All theistic traditions of which I am aware teach that people believe in God because God exists and reveals himself to them. The only inheritance they need is a mind capable of taking in the idea of God at some level. By contrast, evolutionary psychology argues that your experience is no proof of a transcendent reality. You believe what you do because of your genes.

Now, how anyone could fail to see the implicit atheism in such a perspective is quite beyond me, but happily, it isn’t my business to figure that unhappy conundrum out. Only to warn that some fall for this stuff.

Evisceration of actual belief, accompanied by protests of sincerity. For example, famous mid-twentieth-century Darwinist Theodosius Dobzhansky is often fronted as a Christian. Here’s the reality. His convictions had nothing to do with Christianity. In the present day, a prolific contributor to the American Scientific Affiliation‘s discussion site on these issues, who is a Lutheran, writes,

I long ago made peace with the idea that God could use evolution to form our physical bodies. What was new to me, from the atheists’ perspective, was the idea that the intangible aspects of us, like feelings, emotions, consciousness, etc. (which I had equated with the God-given, eternal soul) could also arise (ala emergent properties) naturally. Thus, I’ve acquired a new-found interest in the fields of pyschology, neurology, and computer science as I try to reconceptualize the idea of a “soul”.

At least in the vast majority of cases God works “in, with & under” the activities of creatures so that we don’t see God at work directly. Luther called the created things through which God acts “the masks of our Lord God, behind which He wants to remain concealed and do all things.” This means, I think, that we shouldn’t be surprised if, among other things, human beings don’t contain any special “supernatural” component.

The question is not whether such beliefs – or persons – are good or bad, or sincere or otherwise. What you need to ask is a much simpler and entirely determinable question: Is this stuff compatible with your spiritual tradition? If not, recognize the situation for what it is: undermining from within.

(Note:  A reader has kindly advised that in the first paragraph above, the quoted author (George Murphy) is quoting someone else. I didn’t notice an attribution. My focus, however, is the readiness with which the fans of Christian Darwinism flirt with dispensing with a supernatural component in the human being. I am afraid that I have never heard of an orthodox theology of the cross (an interest of Murphy’s) that denies humans a supernatural component. That is, however, a pillar of orthodox Darwinism. I think that what Murphy, his quotee, and many on the ASA list from which this sample was taken clearly demonstrate is the slow rot of non-materialist understanding of life that any long and close embrace of Darwinism brings about. Mind you, I expect them to want to discuss just about anything else.)

Random embrace of materialism. The American Episcopal Church was so anxious to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist origin (“emergence”) for life, even though no one knows how life originated. Most Anglican (Episcopal) bishops worldwide consider the failing American denomination heretical for unrelated reasons – but they might wish to consider this incident as a straw in the wind. – The American Episcopal Church was so to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist (“emergence”) for life, even though knows how life originated. Most Anglican (Episcopal) bishops worldwide consider the American denomination for unrelated reasons – but they might wish to consider this incident as a straw in the wind.(Oh yes, did I forget to mention? Materialism will diminish and eventually close your worship centre. Do you love God? Your worship centre? Write that down, as a possible reason not to consider materialism, or its creation story, Darwinism.)

– The American Episcopal Church was so to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist (“emergence”) for life, even though knows how life originated. Most Anglican (Episcopal) bishops worldwide consider the American denomination for unrelated reasons – but they might wish to consider this incident as a straw in the wind.(Oh yes, did I forget to mention? Materialism will diminish and eventually close your worship centre. Do you love God? Your worship centre? Write that down, as a possible reason not to consider materialism, or its creation story, Darwinism.)- “Fideism”, evacuated of content. That is, loud protests of traditional belief, held simply as an irrational conviction, unrelated to the person’s assumptions about how the universe really works. Beliefs are supposed to sound like foolishness; that’s what makes them faithful.

All of these trends are of far more significance than doctrinaire atheism in undermining a spiritual tradition. Here are some suggestions for spotting such trends at work:

Key changes in the information that is considered relevant when addressing controversial issues: Suppose, for example, your tradition is wrestling with questions around homosexuality. You suddenly find yourself in a discussion about whether homosexuality contributes to “evolutionary fitness” or whether it is “natural”, “innate,” or whatever.

Well, stop the discussion right there. Yes, right there . Ask, how did we get here? In the Christian tradition, for example, a tendency to sin is regarded as innate, without restriction as to type of sin. And sin – as defined in Scripture – is to be rejected, whether or not the behaviour is considered “natural” or the outcome is “evolutionarily fit.” If you cannot discuss controversial questions in that light, you are no longer in the Christian tradition. And Darwinism is one way of getting right outside the Christian tradition very quickly.

(Note: For your own peace of mind, try to avoid acting astonished at the number of grey eminences that have bobbled above a pew for some fifty or sixty years without developing a Christian mind. They are perfectly happy to make major decisions without any such mind. It’s mostly not even their fault. For decades, clergy of many denominations have functioned as therapists and social workers, not spiritual directors – and the results show.)

Subtle appeals to turn your faith into mere fideism: Watch out for platitudes like “all truth is God’s truth.” While that’s correct, as far as it goes, the mantras of materialism are not truths of any sort and should not be godfathered as “God’s truths,” kicking actual spiritual truths into an irrelevant attic. Materialism and Darwinism can be rejected outright with no loss.

Here’s another dangerous platitude: “Don’t get the Rock of Ages mixed up with the age of the rocks.” Oh? Why not? Either the Rock of Ages is responsible for the age of the rocks or he isn’t. Can you see the subtle appeal here to replace your Christian worldview with a materialist worldview when considering such questions as the origin of the universe, the earth, or life?

Oh and let’s not forget, “The Bible isn’t a science textbook.” Well, anyone who gets around to reading the Bible much will notice that it is a collection of 66 books (more if you are a Catholic and count the Apocrypha), written in a variety of genres on a variety of subjects, with the unifying theme of the relationship between God and people. So there is no question of a science textbook, or a textbook of any kind. But … where there is a conflict between the view of man portrayed in the Bible and similar scriptures and a view that originates in a materialist system like evolutionary psychology, which view should prevail at your worship centre?

Finally, recognize that many Western Christian academics are co-dependent with materialism – it’s how many of them have managed to stay where they are in systems dominated by materialists. They have seen what happened to, for example, Rick Sternberg, Carolyn Crocker, Nancy Bryson, Frank Beckwith, etc., so they know the rules: As long as they

1) avoid raising any serious problems with any materialist system, and

2) attack or disparage anyone who is more forthright against materialism than they are,

they are themselves left alone – for now. At any rate, to the extent that they have placed their bets of materialism and made all sorts of sacrifices for materialism for years, they need the materialist system to prevail.

And it won’t be their fault if it doesn’t.

If that is what some call peace, no wonder increasing numbers are for war. That is a key reason why there is an intelligent design controversy. And there will soon be more than one controversy. New fronts are opening up as people in various disciplines question materialism.

Anyway, materialist undermining at your worship centre can be detected by careful listening and observation. Be ready to ask the right questions at the right times. If you wait too long, it may be far advanced and therefore harder to stop.

Cheers,

Denyse O’Leary

Comments
Jerry wrote: I wish the Theistic Evolutionists well but am I supposed to abandon the reason that God gave us to see what is there. I am not sure what Aquinas would do today if he were here. He was a very logical person and felt it foolish to deny what we find in the world.
I was once a TE, and I'd say half of the authors at UD were TE's once upon a time, and maybe most or at least many of the leaders of the ID movement were TEs. Darwinian TE just doesn't cut it scientifically.scordova
April 16, 2007
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Can anyone here articulate clearly what you think George Murphy means, by "theology of the cross"? Or, what Jorgen Moltmann means by "the crucified God," which is a related concept? And, it would be helpful to understand precisely what Denyse would accept as an "orthodox" understanding of humanity, with a "supernatural" component. Does one need to be a substance dualist, for example?Ted Davis
April 16, 2007
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Mentok, I take your point, and it is actually a good one. At the same time, I recognize that theological evolutionists are far more theologically astute than the ID crowd. This is not unexpected, since they have had more than a century to come to grips with Darwin. That they have done so successfully is a tribute to the core of the Christian corpus, and its defenders. We lost the “design” argument in the 19th century, but we were able to preserve the faith in an intellectually respectable fashion anyway. Giving an apologetic for the faith is not the same as determining what is valid scientifically. ID proponents have been engaged in the latter, and I support their efforts. ID presents us (in the Christian community) with new opportunities. Just as it will take time--in addition to effective arguments and persuasive evidence--to convince the scientific community that ID deserves a place at the table, so it will take time for mainline theologians to come to grips with a new scientific reality. But it is not up to theologians to establish the scientific paradigms. Rather, it is up to theologians to respond to them. Personally, I am rooting for the ID paradigm. But that, theologically, is all I can do.Lutepisc
April 16, 2007
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George maybe if you viewed what Denyse has written through the theology of the cross you could see the hidden blessing it is?mentok
April 16, 2007
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According to Ms. O'Leary, "I am afraid that I have never heard of an orthodox theology of the cross (an interest of Murphy’s) that denies humans a supernatural component." Knowing that I am a Lutheran, she will of course realize that to understand a theology of the cross in my sense she will have to begin with Luther's "theological paradoxes" for the Heidelberg Disputation of 1518. They can be found in volume 31 of the English edition of _Luther's Works_. A good commentary is Gerhard Forde's _On Being a Theologian of the Cross_. Of course serious theology does not stop in the 16th century. Some of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writings collected in _Letters and Papers from Prison_ and Eberhard Juengel's argument for a "theology of the crucified One" in _God as the Mystery of the World_ have been important for me. My most complete treatment of science-theology issues in terms of a theology of the cross is _The Cosmos in the Light of the Cross_. Whether or not it is valid to infer from such a theology that it is not necessary to postulate a "supernatural" component of the human can, of course, be debated. But the claim that that I have made this suggestion as a result of "the slow rot of non-materialist understanding of life that any long and close embrace of Darwinism brings about" is, if I may be blunt, a lie.George Murphy
April 16, 2007
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Denyse, is it only me or did you repeat the following paragraphs that talk about: "The American Episcopal Church was so to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist (”emergence”) for life, even though knows how life originated"Atom
April 16, 2007
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"be on the lookout for the following" " “Fideism”, evacuated of content. That is, loud protests of traditional belief, held simply as an irrational conviction, unrelated to the person’s assumptions about how the universe really works. Beliefs are supposed to sound like foolishness; that’s what makes them faithful." I'm glad this was mentioned. I never realized there was a word for it (fideism), but is something that has bothered me for a while. People (both religious and non-religious) often equate faith with blind faith. Since faith is usually associated with religion (although it it is not intrinsically religious and is used frequently in non-religious contexts), and since the anti-ID crowd tries to link ID with religion, its easy for people to mistake ID for something that has to be believed without evidence. Unfortunately most people will only look at something like this superficially. Fideism could certainly stop people from considering the evidence for ID.dl
April 16, 2007
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Denyse is right, she's clear, and she's timely. The out-of-the-closet atheist is easier to deal with and less dangerous than the slippery religious elite who has sold his soul to the materialists. Courage is the most respected of virtures—maybe because it’s so rare. Anyway I think we'd all profit from Nancy Pearcey’s Total Truth. There is just one logic, facts are facts, and truth is truth and lying is lying in any language or culture. Even David Novak loses this perspective when he reviews Dawkins in Azure: “Nevertheless, Intelligent Design is not a re-statement of ‘creationism,’ which is the view that the Bible literally describes just how God created the world within a time frame that by every scientific indication is too short, even for the proponents of Intelligent Design, and which comes too late in the history of the universe proposed by modern physics. And, whereas creationists speak from biblical authority, the proponents of Intelligent Design speak in mathematical equations, which is the language of science since Galileo. Accordingly, Dawkins has attacked a much more subtle opponent, and he knows it. “Theologians or religious philosophers who are not biblical literalists and who are unlike today’s creationists should answer Dawkins’ arguments or risk the charge that they are too terrorized by them to speak up against them. Taking up Dawkins’ challenge, such theologians (among whom I count myself) can either argue for the hypothetical value of Intelligent Design or something like it, or can show that their ‘God-talk’ (the original meaning of theo-logy) is not the proposal of any scientific hypothesis at all. Such theologians need to show how their theological opponents are guilty of what philosophers call a ‘category error’ by confusing the language and logic of theology with the language and logic of natural science.” And so a nice guy digs himself into irrelevance—philosophically, scientifically, biblically.Rude
April 16, 2007
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tribune7, "Well yes, God will triumph in the end. But in the meantime those with materialist worldviews convince themselves " What I specifically meant was that, even if someone maintains that all that exist is the material (physicalism, naturalism, etc), I don't see it as necessarily a threat for even orthodox conceptions of God. On the other hand, I find it hard to accept physicalism or naturalism on their own merits.nullasalus
April 16, 2007
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"I believe the fiery lake talk pushed people toward materialism." Um…So Pat Robertson is responsible for the rise in materialism? Is Robertson a cause or effect? I say effect, and I also think it’s all much simpler than we sometimes make it out to be. A lot of people simply don’t want to believe in God for whatever reason. Darwinian evolution eliminated (no laughter, please) the design argument and gave these people a tool to promote their beliefs. Now as science presses on, design is coming at us from every angle and darwin is looking quite ill. Materialism, which is a faith, has bet all its money on the poor old guy and doesn’t want to go down with the ship, so they’re doing whatever they can to keep the ship floating. This includes viscously persecuting those who dissent from the church. Think about someone like Dawkins. A guy like Pat Robertson is anathema to him, and the thought of losing Darwin and having Robertson’s running around unchecked is just too much to bear. To be perfectly honest, I don’t want Robertson’s running around either. I don’t believe in a literal “lake of fire” or much of anything else he says, but I have to admit based on the evidence that design is not an illusion, and neither is my mind.shaner74
April 16, 2007
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Are we seeing a softening of views toward other religions in the ID community? I cannot think of a more theologically diverse and religiously tolerant board than this. As far as Pat Robertson, do you think he ever would have gotten the traction he did if U.S. courts had not declared Bible reading, non-denominational public prayer, Christmas creche's and Ten Commandment displays unconstitutional, while declaring pornography, abortion and anal sex constitutionally protected acts, all the while with Congress calling blasphemy art and funding it with tax money?tribune7
April 16, 2007
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The analogy of looking out the window is one I use frequently to refute the gradualist, materialist view of the world and here it used to support theistic evolution. But I see something different when I look at nature. I see the grandeur of a magnificent creation but I also see something else. I live in a wooded area and from my window I can see the Malthusian struggle that is the basis for the Darwinian process every day. The struggle that he said drives the changes that are in the fossil record and causes the unique life forms we see in the present day world. A struggle that is repeated many millions of times all over the world on a continuing basis, day by dad. And what is the result of this struggle? No new alleles, no evidence of new species forming to build to something new. It is the perfect experiment for the Darwinists/materialists and the results are always the same. As I have said, a magnificent creation but not one that supports that life has gradually built up from nothing. But that is science and observation. Something I have not witnessed in anything that theistic evolutionists have written. It is always theology and ideology that is presented. On another thread here Granville Sewell discusses how it is the ID people who are always denying science when in fact it is always the opposite. If life was accomplished through secondary causes and I have no reason to believe it couldn't happen that way then the Creator did so without leaving any evidence. He has covered His tracks perfectly and all of us here have to ask why? He has gifted us with reason and expects us to use it and thus we here are trying to do so. I wish the Theistic Evolutionists well but am I supposed to abandon the reason that God gave us to see what is there. I am not sure what Aquinas would do today if he were here. He was a very logical person and felt it foolish to deny what we find in the world.jerry
April 16, 2007
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Denyse, okay I'll bite. I've read your contributions for quite some time and have an observation. In the 1970s, I lived in a place called Tidewater, Virginia. Cities in Tidewater include Hampton, Norfolk, James City, and Williamsburg. It’s all very British sounding. In the 1970s a man named Pat Robertson started an obscure television program on the UHF channel in Virginia Beach. I used to watch it with grand fascination. People probably don't remember, but Pat Robertson was a bizarre guy in those days. He would predict the end of times, the Second Coming and so on. But most importantly, he hammered home one consistent theme: God…Yer either fer 'em or agin 'em. And those that were for Him were biblical literalists, i.e. fundamentalists in the Protestant tradition. A fiery lake waited for all others. Anybody who suggested otherwise were liberals or moral relativists or something of that nature. Eventually, this kind of talk saturated the radio and television stations. Suddenly, lots of people talking about the fiery lake. And I always thought it was a huge mistake for Christendom. Most people (including myself) do the best they can, mixing science and religion until they come to some inner understanding (that usually only makes sense to them). I believe the fiery lake talk pushed people toward materialism. You see, fiery lake talk is fighting words. No matter what how you theologicalize (a new word I just made up) it, those who utter it really harbor a disdain for someone else’s religious views. You see, Americans are very practical people. We go about or daily lives building, inventing and shopping. Yes, we believe in God, but we don't spend our days tackling the great theological questions. The country is also incredibly diverse, with about as many different belief systems as you can imagine. It seems nonsensical that God would cast all these good people in the fiery lake, especially since He hasn't been very forthcoming with clues to His role in the universe (hence the debate over primary versus secondary causation). So, to avoid confronting your neighbor, many people decided to ignore the whole lot of it and slowly drifted unwittingly toward atheism and materialism or whatever. What I find fascinating about your posts is that you have framed the battle between Materialists and Non-Materialists. This is much different from the old epic of Biblical Literalists versus Everybody Else. Are we seeing a softening of views toward other religions in the ID community? Have we decided the battle is really between materialists and non-materialists?Barrett1
April 16, 2007
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"Why cannot matter be eternal and uncreated?" Well I could almost disregard the evidence and choose to believe that to make my life easier, were it not for my own existence. The very fact that intelligence/consciousness exists is a big deterrent in believing materialism for me. I just don’t think it’s possible for an arrangement of atoms to give rise to something so decidedly non-material, and then control other material through this non-material method. If you think about it, we all use telekinesis, everyday. We move our own bodies (matter) with nothing more than thought. It’s really quite remarkable how strange the world we live in really is. Of course, I could be proven wrong if some computer somewhere all of a sudden becomes sentient, but I’m not worried about that happening...um, ever.shaner74
April 16, 2007
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I posted a comment that did not appear. Is there something in it that is not appropriate.jerry
April 16, 2007
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dopderbeckk, I am sorry to see that you are not here anymore. But your analogy of looking out the window is one I use frequently to refute the gradualist, materialist view of the world. But you and I see something different. I see the grandeur of a magnificent creation but I also see something else. I live in a wooded area and from my window I can see the Malthusian struggle that is the basis for the Darwinian process every day. The process that he postulates is the basis for his ideas. A struggle that is repeated many millions of times all over the world on a continuing basis. And the result, no new alleles, no new species to build to something new. It is the perfect experiment for the Darwinists/materialists and the results are always the same. As I have said, a magnificent creation but not one that supports that life has gradually built up from nothing. But that is science and observation. Something I have not witnessed in anything you have written. It is always theology and ideology that is presented. On another thread here Granville Sewell discusses how it is the ID people who are always denying science when in fact it is always the opposite. If this was done through secondary causes and I have no reason to believe it couldn't then the Creator did so "Without a Trace." He has covered His tracks perfectly and all of us here have to ask why? He has gifted us with reason and expects us to use it and thus we here are trying to do so. I wish the Theistic Evolutionists well but am I supposed to abandon the reason that God gave us to see what is there. I am not sure what Aquinas would do today if he were here. He was a very logical person and felt it foolish to deny what we find in the world. And one of the things that I find in the world is that the TE's are providing substance to the materialists.jerry
April 16, 2007
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At the same time, I think God triumphs even in materialist worldviews Well yes, God will triumph in the end. But in the meantime those with materialist worldviews convince themselves and others to do mind-numblingly evil acts including adultery, abortion, genocide, the bearing of false witness, coveting; actually you can go down the list of the big 10 and see the breaking of each one encouraged. One of the worst slanders they make is the claim that belief in God and Jesus is somehow an incentive to evil. This has become so ingrained that half the time they don't even realize what they are saying. The Second Pslam sums it up for those with a materialist worldview. Someone should send it to Dawkins.tribune7
April 16, 2007
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I think you misquoted the post on the ASA website... the first paragraph of it was posted by one person (a new member, the first post they ever made). It was part of a much longer posting. The second person posted a response, that being the second paragraph, and copied part of the original posting in their response. So what you quoted is an amalgamation of two different people, one responding to the other. Which is not to argue against your main point of questioning the materialist assumptions in many ideas floating around today. I'd be a little hesitant to vilify a Christian that was considering that maybe our minds were made up of a purely physical mechanism though. If so, I think it would be that God designed them that way, with the ability to consider spiritual things, and have relationship with Him. Perhaps He even used a design method that, on the surface, looks to us like a "natural process". To me, it's still an open question (although I lean toward God's direct intervention, especially in the area of origins). So, I DO like the basic point of questioning materialist assumptions, and keeping the door open to the idea of divine intervention. And I completely agree that it would be foolhardy to give in to the materialists before the game has even played out.pgreaves
April 16, 2007
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I long ago made peace with the idea that God could use evolution to form our physical bodies.
Me too, but the major issue however for a theist is whether God used: 1. Evolution 2. And if evolution, whether it was Darwinian To a professing theist, God uses gravity to make the moon orbit the Earth. So no problem with gravity. However the question for biology is whether Darwinian or mindless evolution is even the correct mechanism. Saying Darwinian was the mechanism God used for biology is like saying "God uses perpetual motion machines to power the sun."scordova
April 16, 2007
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Wow. Dopderbeck's response was almost like an allergic reaction. If this essay needed any validation--there it is. "The lady doth protest too much methinks."sajones97
April 15, 2007
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Well, I finally wrote a post to which lots of people responded. My inbox is also full. Darn. If I'd thought so many people were going to read it, I would have taken the opportunity to raise money for World Vision. My purposes did not include drawing attention to an individual by name (which I avoided). Rather, the comments quoted and linked aptly characterize a specific state reached in the slow dissolution of a non-materialist world view into a materialist one. I have heard the whole thing put much less eloquently and at vastly greater length at local parish council meetings. This seemed so much better a swatch to sample, for the purpose of illustration. - d.O'Leary
April 15, 2007
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jared: This is an age old question with lots of good answers to be found in books and on the web. The problem is far greater than most people think - once you "dig below the surface" as they say. Matter cannot be self-existent. That ought to be obvious. All things self-existent (there's only one as far as we know) are necessarily eternal. But the universe cannot be eternal because it is running down. Eternal things don't run down. Get it? Further more, events without causes do not exist. (Yes I know about virtual particles and such - they still do not count as causeless events, merely as events without a KNOWN cause). There is no such thing as an event without a cause. The material universe is a stupendous series of events. An infinite series of events, going back forever, without a first cause is a logical absurdity. So, there had to be a 1st and adequate cause which itself was uncaused. And, the cause of the universe, which we know had a beginning, had to be adequate. The universe displays energy and matter to such an extent as to be incalculable - the power that caused it had to be even greater. Eternal matter is a myth. Also - Remember there is another law called the 2nd law of thermodynamics that you should not leave out. Check also: Conservation of mass check the "Serious Violations" section. And HEREBorne
April 15, 2007
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Why cannot matter be eternal and uncreated? Because matter occupies time and space, and time and space had a beginning.GilDodgen
April 15, 2007
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jaredl, I suppose it's possible. It just looks less likely nowadays, due to the link of time with mass, and the fact that both apparently had a beginning in the Big Bang. Granted, that doesn't automatically force you to a non-material conclusion - but there's a reason the universe has been referred to as "the ultimate free lunch".nullasalus
April 15, 2007
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Why must material have had a beginning? The law of conservation of mass and energy seems to admit no exceptions. Why cannot matter be eternal and uncreated?jaredl
April 15, 2007
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Jerry said:There would be no one happier than myself to find that God operated through secondary causes. Um, look out your window. The weather, the animals, the plants, all that stuff you see going on in the natural world right now: secondary causes. You need to read Aquinas:
To take away order from creation is to take away the best thing that there is in creation: for while individual things in themselves are good, the conjunction of them all is best by reason of the order in the universe: for the whole is ever better than the parts and is the end of the parts. But if actions are denied to things, the order of things to one another is taken away: for things differing in their natures are not tied up in the unity of one system otherwise than by this, that some act and some are acted upon. 7. If effects are not produced by the action of creatures, but only by the action of God, it is impossible for the power of any creature to be manifested by its effect: for an effect shows the power of the cause only by reason of the action, which proceeds from the power and is terminated to the effect. But the nature of a cause is not known through its effect except in so far as through its effect its power is known which follows upon its nature.* If then created things have no actions of their own productive of effects, it follows that the nature of a created thing can never be known by its effect; and thus there is withdrawn from us all investigation of natural science, in which demonstrations are given principally through the effect. (Summa Contra Gentiles III.69.)
Since the Angelic Doctor thus distinuishes secondary causes as the manner in which God typically acts in creation, and also notes that secondary causes are what allow us to rationally investigate how creation works, should we lump Aquinas together with George Murphy as a compromiser with materialism?dopderbeck
April 15, 2007
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For the record, I regard this piece as the best summary I've seen of the capitulation to materialism that has come to infest so much of what on the surface seems confessionally sound Christian thinking. Take Denyse's message to heart. Indeed, it is prophetic.
Denyse is not only a very creative and imaginative writer, but one of the most insightful people I've ever had the pleasure to meet (if only by telephone and e-mail). She is also very humble and unassuming, and will no doubt be embarrassed by these accolades, but that's her tough luck. Materialism cannot possibly be true, because material had a beginning, and therefore cannot explain the origin of material. This is why the notion that the physical universe had a beginning was so vehemently opposed until the scientific evidence became overwhelming. The origin of information in biological systems through materialistic and stochastic processes is no longer a viable option, in light of what is now known from biochemistry, mathematics, and information theory. Denyse is precisely correct: Concessions by theists to materialists is ludicrous and destructive, because materialists are wrong about how really important stuff works, and modern science is providing more and more evidence that this is the case.GilDodgen
April 15, 2007
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BTW, Denyse, given that you’re a Catholic, I’m curious why you’re so critical of George’s brief discussion of secondary causes. It’s vintage Aquinas, after all...
The idea that God can work through secondary causes may be vintage Aquinas. However, secondary causes are not really what's at issue here. What's at issue here is philosophical materialism, and what the human person is. Ie, it's about the nature of the thing that has been caused, rather than the causes. This, for instance, is decidedly *not* "vintage Aquinas" (or Benedict or Neuhaus for that matter).
Luther called the created things through which God acts “the masks of our Lord God, behind which He wants to remain concealed and do all things.” This means, I think, that we shouldn’t be surprised if, among other things, human beings don’t contain any special “supernatural” component.
Deuce
April 15, 2007
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I've removed Phonon and Dopderbeck from this forum. For the record, I regard this piece as the best summary I've seen of the capitulation to materialism that has come to infest so much of what on the surface seems confessionally sound Christian thinking. Take Denyse's message to heart. Indeed, it is prophetic. William Dembski
April 15, 2007
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I have little desire to participate in these discussions but since it was called to my attention that Ms. O'Leary both misrepresented and misunderstood my comments on the ASA list, I should set the record straight. 1st, as has already been noted, the 1st paragraph which she attributed to "a prolific contributor" were in fact from a new member on the list. 2d, in her reference to the 2d paragraph (which was mine), she suggests that what I say is the result of "undermining from within," obviously ignorant of the Lutheran tradition which she has the audacity to tell ME I should reflect upon. The basic theological issue here is not primary and secondary causation but the theology of the cross. If anyone is interested in the significance of this for divine action, evolution or related topics, I'll be glad to give some references.George Murphy
April 15, 2007
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