Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 66: String — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — data structures as key information storage arrays (thus the significance of DNA and mRNA)

Categories
Academic Freedom
Agitprop
DNA
Intelligent Design
Logic and Reason
specified complexity
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

One of the more peculiar objections to the design inference is the strident, often repeated claim that the genetic code is not a code, and that DNA and mRNA are not storing algorithmic, coded information used in protein synthesis. These are tied to the string (yes, s-t-r-i-n-g) data structure, a key foundational array for information storage, transfer and application. So, it seems useful to address the string as a key first principles issue, with the onward point being that strings of course can and do store coded information.

Let us begin with, what a string — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — is (though that should already be obvious from even the headline):

Wikipedia illustrates a string data structure

Geeks for Geeks: A string is a sequence of characters, often used to represent text. In programming, strings are a common data type and are used for a variety of tasks, such as representing names, addresses, and other types of information.

Wikipedia confesses: In computer programming, a string is traditionally a sequence of characters, either as a literal constant or as some kind of variable. The latter may allow its elements to be mutated and the length changed, or it may be fixed (after creation). A string is generally considered as a data type and is often implemented as an array data structure of bytes (or words) that stores a sequence of elements, typically characters, using some character encoding. String may also denote more general arrays or other sequence (or list) data types and structures . . . . A primary purpose of strings is to store human-readable text, like words and sentences. Strings are used to communicate information from a computer program to the user of the program. A program may also accept string input from its user. Further, strings may store data expressed as characters yet not intended for human reading . . . . Example strings and their purposes . . . Alphabetical data, like “AGATGCCGT” representing nucleic acid sequences of DNA . . .

So, it should not be surprising to see that DNA and RNA can store strings of information-bearing elements:

Where, of course, the genetic code is expressed in such strings. The (standard) code, mRNA form is:

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins, specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

For very simple example, HT Khan Academy:

The basic algorithmic process for protein synthesis [HT Khan, fair use edu]

Of course, the above is the mRNA form, which would be transcribed and edited to cut out introns, and it leaves out onward complexities. For example, we can see how Insulin has two strands of AA’s interconnected through di-sulphide bonds, making up a 51 AA protein:

The 51 aa, double chain protein, human insulin (fair use edu)

The end-product insulin protein is put together from the preproinsulin produced stepwise in the ribosome, by way of a clever alignment that uses a third, “scaffolding,” chain C sequence:

Assembling Insulin (fair use)

Using the code one could in principle back-translate to mRNA, however, in the DNA there are intervening Introns between the Exons expressed in the ribosome, so the human genome sequence is:

The underlying DNA sequence in the human genome (fair use)

So, as usual, we see how sophisticated life is at molecular level. That said, we also see that as a key stage of protein synthesis, as ribosomes, mRNA and tRNA interact (with a complex cast of supporting molecules) AA chains are assembled with start, elongate, stop, executing a code driven algorithm. Where, AmHD defines:

[Algorithm:] A finite set of unambiguous instructions that, given some set of initial conditions, can be performed in a prescribed sequence to achieve a certain goal and that has a recognizable set of end conditions.

Illustrating:

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

That should be enough to show the unbiased mind that coded algorithms are in the cell, and that DNA and mRNA act as string data structures. However, there are those who have proved resistant to such commonplace summaries or to citations from the sort of panels of experts who write major textbooks in biochemistry. For record, notwithstanding, here are Lehninger and heirs:

A page capture from Lehninger and heirs, Principles of Biochemistry, (fair use)

Lehninger and heirs go on to say, pp. 194 – 5:

Augmented citation from Lehninger and heirs, on mRNA in protein synthesis (fair use)

We may also now observe a Nobel Prize Laureate, Sydney Brenner, in his article, Life’s code script . . . yes, it’s that obvious, published in 2012 in the leading Science Journal, Nature:

[Brenner:] ” . . . The most interesting connection with biology, in my view, is in Turing’s most important paper: ‘On computable numbers with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem’5, published in 1936, when Turing was just 24.

Computable numbers are defined as those whose decimals are calculable by finite means. [–> that is, effectively, by algorithms] Turing introduced what became known as the Turing machine to formalize the computation. The abstract machine is provided with a tape [–> with marks on it], which it scans one square at a time, and it can write, erase or omit symbols. The scanner may alter its mechanical state, and it can ‘remember’ previously read symbols. Essentially, the system is a set of instructions written on the tape, which describes the machine. Turing also defined a universal Turing machine, which can carry out any computation for which an instruction set can be written — this is the origin of the digital computer. [–> there is also, a more powerful oracle machine, capable of one step decisions]

Turing’s ideas were carried further in the 1940s by mathematician and engineer John von Neumann, who conceived of a ‘constructor’ machine capable of assembling another according to a description. A universal constructor with its own description would build a machine like itself. To complete the task, the universal constructor needs to copy its description and insert the copy into the offspring machine. Von Neumann noted that if the copying machine made errors, these ‘mutations’ would provide inheritable changes in the progeny.

Arguably the best examples of Turing’s and von Neumann’s machines are to be found in biology. Nowhere else are there such complicated systems, in which every organism contains an internal description of itself. The concept of the gene as a symbolic representation of the organism — a code script — is a fundamental feature of the living world and must form the kernel of biological theory. [–> note, again, author, context and publisher]

Turing died in 1954, one year after the discovery of the double-helical structure of DNA by James Watson and Francis Crick, but before biology’s subsequent revolution. Neither he nor von Neumann had any direct effect on molecular biology, but their work allows us to discipline our thoughts about machines, both natural and artificial.

Turing invented the stored-program computer, and von Neumann showed that the description is separate from the universal constructor. [–> that ‘description’ of course is encoded] This is not trivial. Physicist Erwin Schrödinger confused the program and the constructor in his 1944 book What is Life?, in which he saw chromosomes as “architect’s plan and builder’s craft in one”. This is wrong. The code script contains only a description of the executive function, not the function itself.

That’s why Yockey adapted Shannon’s architectural diagram for communication systems:

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

So, we may freely understand that DNA and associated molecules such as mRNA express string data structures, store coded biological information, that such information as used in protein synthesis expresses algorithms, and that therefore we are dealing with computation and associated computer language in the course of protein synthesis.

We may quote a Wiki confession:

[Wiki confesses:] Since 2001, 40 non-natural amino acids have been added into proteins by creating a unique codon (recoding) and a corresponding transfer-RNA:aminoacyl – tRNA-synthetase pair to encode it with diverse physicochemical and biological properties in order to be used as a tool to exploring protein structure and function or to create novel or enhanced proteins.[22][23]

H. Murakami and M. Sisido extended some codons to have four and five bases. Steven A. Benner [–>another guy] constructed a functional 65th (in vivo) codon.[24]

In 2015 N. Budisa, D. Söll and co-workers reported the full substitution of all 20,899 tryptophan residues (UGG codons) with unnatural thienopyrrole-alanine in the genetic code of the bacterium Escherichia coli.[25]

In 2016 the first stable semisynthetic organism was created. It was a (single cell) bacterium with two synthetic bases (called X and Y). The bases survived cell division.[26][27]

In 2017, researchers in South Korea reported that they had engineered a mouse with an extended genetic code that can produce proteins with unnatural amino acids.[28]

In May 2019, researchers reported the creation of a new “Syn61” strain of the bacterium Escherichia coli. This strain has a fully synthetic genome that is refactored (all overlaps expanded), recoded (removing the use of three out of 64 codons completely), and further modified to remove the now unnecessary tRNAs and release factors. It is fully viable and grows 1.6× slower than its wild-type counterpart “MDS42”

Indeed, the function of DNA as an information storage entity is so well established, that as Wiki also confesses, it has been adapted to general archival storage:

DNA digital data storage is the process of encoding and decoding binary data to and from synthesized strands of DNA.[1][2]

While DNA as a storage medium has enormous potential because of its high storage density, its practical use is currently severely limited because of its high cost and very slow read and write times.[3]

In June 2019, scientists reported that all 16 GB of text from Wikipedia’s English-language version had been encoded into synthetic DNA.[4] In 2021, scientists reported that a custom DNA data writer had been developed that was capable of writing data into DNA at 18 Mbps.[5]
Encoding methods

Countless methods for encoding data in DNA are possible. The optimal methods are those that make economical use of DNA and protect against errors.[6] If the message DNA is intended to be stored for a long period of time, for example, 1,000 years [–> a lot longer than most of our digital storage media will likely last], it is also helpful if the sequence is obviously artificial and the reading frame is easy to identify.[6]

CNet gives details:

the next storage technology might use an approach as old as life on earth: DNA. Startup Catalog announced Friday it’s crammed all of the text of Wikipedia’s English-language version onto the same genetic molecules our own bodies use.

It accomplished the feat with its first DNA writer, a machine that would fit easily in your house if you first got rid of your refrigerator, oven and some counter space. And although it’s not likely to push aside your phone’s flash memory chips anytime soon, the company believes it’s useful already to some customers who need to archive data.

DNA strands are tiny and tricky to manage, but the biological molecules can store other data than the genes that govern how a cell becomes a pea plant or chimpanzee. Catalog uses prefabricated synthetic DNA strands that are shorter than human DNA, but uses a lot more of them so it can store much more data.

Relying on DNA instead of the latest high-tech miniaturization might sound like a step backward. But DNA is compact, chemically stable — and given that it’s the foundation of the Earth’s biology, it’s arguably not as likely to become as obsolete as the spinning magnetized platters of hard drives or CDs that are disappearing today . . .

In short, they used a different encoding and have stored Wikipedia in DNA.

At this point, we need to ask, why is it that we have seen certain objectors from the penumbra of attack sites making strident, unyielding objections to understanding DNA and mRNA as string data structure information storage entities, part of a wider information processing, protein synthesis process in the cell?

The manifest answer is simple and sad: because such things point to design, which is being ideologically locked out at all costs.

So, it is time to recognise a key first fact about DNA and mRNA and let the chips lie where they fly. END

Comments
Try my question at 142, KF.Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
FP/AF et al, ignoring abusive commentary to try to obfuscate, code and language should be first appreciated in computational context. Wikipedia confesses a few things here:
In computer programming, machine code is any low-level programming language, consisting of machine language instructions, which are used to control a computer's central processing unit (CPU). Each instruction causes the CPU to perform a very specific task, such as a load, a store, a jump, or an arithmetic logic unit (ALU) operation on one or more units of data in the CPU's registers or memory.
Machine code or language is what is executed by the physical machine, extending obviously to numerically controlled machines including the ribosome. Which, as is well known, executes algorithms to assemble AA chains towards proteins. To make it clear, symbolic codes are used, and such codes are of linguistic character. Hence talk of things like register transfer language, used to be RT Algebra way back. They come from language using agents and are a strong sign of such designers having been at work. In short, the root problem is in the 1940s - 70s, on parallel tracks, we were developing computers that work by executing machine code and found out that key features of the cell were working in the same fundamental way, but using 4-state elements. (There was a Russian effort to build 3-state computers.) KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PDT
During transcription, a section of DNA encoding a protein, known as a gene, is converted into a template molecule called messenger RNA (mRNA). This conversion is carried out by enzymes, known as RNA polymerases, in the nucleus of the cell.
Whereas this description is fine directed at a high school or undergraduate audience. How KF can quote reasonable descriptions yet transcribe it into the nonsense he writes himself is a mystery.Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:26 PM
1
01
26
PM
PDT
AUG does not chemically force a tRNA with anticodon to have Met on it, that is loaded by a separate enzyme beforehand, loaded at the CCA tool tip at the end away from the anticodon. The instructions are given to the ribosome, an execution unit, which initialises, acts in symbolically controlled steps then halts, using mRNA as a string data structure code tape and tRNA as both AA taxis and position-arm devices to aid in chaining, where the tRNAs have a universal CCA tool tip opposite to their anticodons. The key point of coding, as Yockey notes [cf OP] is loading tRNA with loading enzymes, using the universal CCA tool tip. Chemically, obviously, CCA can bind with any AA [and as Yockey notes misloading does happen], it is the aaRS that determines the particular, correct loading. And more.
This is pretty much garbled nonsense.Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
FP/AF/ et al, this is not a matter of Alinsky tactics. There are established facts on decades of experiment and analysis which, for months you have set out to obfuscate and pretend are not so. You are in denial of an established scientific consensus, while pretending to defend science, so it means the problem is ideology, specifically evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers. Congratulations, you have succeeded, you have shown yourself to have negative credibility, especially on the genetic code and protein synthesis. On this, you have been less credible than what Wikipedia confesses, a new low. We may freely use cognitive dissonance to infer that your projections to the other show that the actual facts are fatal to your ideology, and so you have irresponsibly set out to create rhetorical chaos. KF PS, to date you have failed to soundly address what Sydney Brenner had to say, as publ;shed by Nature's editors and reviewers. This is after you tried to obfuscate what Lehninger and heirs were so insistent on that they put a comparison of a cuneiform artifact and a bacterium on the table. Even Wikipedia does better:
The genetic code is the set of rules used by living cells to translate information encoded within genetic material (DNA or RNA sequences of nucleotide triplets, or codons) into proteins. Translation is accomplished by the ribosome, which links proteinogenic amino acids in an order specified by messenger RNA (mRNA), using transfer RNA (tRNA) molecules to carry amino acids and to read the mRNA three nucleotides at a time. The genetic code is highly similar among all organisms and can be expressed in a simple table with 64 entries. The codons specify which amino acid will be added next during protein biosynthesis. With some exceptions,[1] a three-nucleotide codon in a nucleic acid sequence specifies a single amino acid. The vast majority of genes are encoded with a single scheme (see the RNA codon table). That scheme is often referred to as the canonical or standard genetic code, or simply the genetic code, though variant codes (such as in mitochondria) exist.
and:
Protein synthesis can be divided broadly into two phases - transcription and translation. During transcription, a section of DNA encoding a protein, known as a gene, is converted into a template molecule called messenger RNA (mRNA). This conversion is carried out by enzymes, known as RNA polymerases, in the nucleus of the cell.[2] In eukaryotes, this mRNA is initially produced in a premature form (pre-mRNA) which undergoes post-transcriptional modifications to produce mature mRNA. The mature mRNA is exported from the cell nucleus via nuclear pores to the cytoplasm of the cell for translation to occur. During translation, the mRNA is read by ribosomes which use the nucleotide sequence of the mRNA to determine the sequence of amino acids. The ribosomes catalyze the formation of covalent peptide bonds between the encoded amino acids to form a polypeptide chain. Following translation the polypeptide chain must fold to form a functional protein; for example, to function as an enzyme the polypeptide chain must fold correctly to produce a functional active site.
A new low for ID objectors.kairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:14 PM
1
01
14
PM
PDT
Jerry at 147, That's impossible! I've lost my faith in Unguided Evolution! What will I do!? I know - Intelligent Design.relatd
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
While everyone here is fiddling and Rome is burning, I will add to the fire.
Scientists Discover Parallel Codes In Genes Summary: Researchers from the Weizmann Institute of Science report the discovery of two new properties of the genetic code. Their work, which appears online in Genome Research, shows that the genetic code -- used by organisms as diverse as reef coral, termites, and humans -- is nearly optimal for encoding signals of any length in parallel to sequences that code for proteins.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070208230116.htmjerry
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:02 PM
1
01
02
PM
PDT
Is there symbolism and machine language at work in the computer you are typing on?Origenes
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PDT
@Jerry Thanks for sharing your experience in semiotics and using codes. Apart from questioning that a language is itself a code, I agree with you. ETA I'd also wonder whether people use "code" when they mean "cipher".Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:58 PM
12
12
58
PM
PDT
I wrote:
With the DNA “code,” the weakness is that some people, due to their religious views, misrepresent the term to argue that an intelligence must be behind the “code.”
KF writes:
And more. The dragged out objections have simply shown that we are not dealing with sober minded objections but with ideology.
If imitation is the highest form of flattery, what is projection?Ford Prefect
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:57 PM
12
12
57
PM
PDT
Sandy at 134, Exactly right. In order to reproduce successfully, signals from within a cell must be triggered correctly, and the genetic code must be transferred correctly. During its life, a cell contains molecular switches that turn on and off, while some stay on for a specific time period in order for the correct amount of water and nutrients to enter the cell and for waste products to exit. This information is coded but it is specific information designed to work as designed. It did not get there through random events.relatd
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:54 PM
12
12
54
PM
PDT
Did I already ask how it is there are six codons and six leucine tRNAs that result in a leucine residue being added to a growing polypeptide when there is only one leucine tRNA synthetase?Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PDT
Certain strings of DNA undergo chemical reactions to form a specific protein. The arrangement of amino acids in the protein is dependent on arrangement of nucleotides in the DNA/RNA.
Slight nitpick: DNA in the cell nucleus being transcribed into mRNA do not undergo chemical reactions, only the physical breaking and reforming of hydrogen bonds. Also individual DNA nucleotides act as templates for the mRNA sequences being copied. The triplet code is not involved in transcription. A pairs with T/U, C pairs with G, and vice versa. No codes, just templates.Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
Jerry (attn PM!, AF et al, Sandy etc), there is a grammar and there is a syntax sufficient to express step by step AA chaining, with start and stop, i.e. algorithms. The string structure and three character codon establish a reading framework. The code is not a general purpose language but it is a meaningful, SVO oriented symbolic character adequate to execute algorithms; AUG does not chemically force a tRNA with anticodon to have Met on it, that is loaded by a separate enzyme beforehand, loaded at the CCA tool tip at the end away from the anticodon. The instructions are given to the ribosome, an execution unit, which initialises, acts in symbolically controlled steps then halts, using mRNA as a string data structure code tape and tRNA as both AA taxis and position-arm devices to aid in chaining, where the tRNAs have a universal CCA tool tip opposite to their anticodons. The key point of coding, as Yockey notes [cf OP] is loading tRNA with loading enzymes, using the universal CCA tool tip. Chemically, obviously, CCA can bind with any AA [and as Yockey notes misloading does happen], it is the aaRS that determines the particular, correct loading. And more. The dragged out objections have simply shown that we are not dealing with sober minded objections but with ideology. KF PS, to correct a strawman, codes are of linguistic character, they do not have to be complete languages to be effective. In context *** - - - *** means SOS, a code for rescue us, similar to Mayday. But being of linguistic character, they are observed and known to be signatures of language using agents.kairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:48 PM
12
12
48
PM
PDT
There is no way around there is no known code that is created by a natural process. All the codes are designed by a mind. DNA is a code therefore is designed by a Mind.
Why direct this comment at me? That's exactly what I said. I just said that all codes are not a language but are created by an intelligence. A language is a code but not all codes are a language. Aside: I was a communication officer in the Navy so I know the various ways that are used to communicate to other living entities. We used flashing light, flags, semaphore and even hand signals occasionally in addition to radios.jerry
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PDT
PM1, codes used in information processing, storage, communication and computation systems, especially machine codes use arbitrary symbols and implied patterns of meaning. As the Khan Academy example in the OP shows (scroll up, it was there all along), for mRNA, AUG means start, load Met, when in initial position or simply load Met otherwise. Various other codes [and there are about 2 dozen dialects] mean, elongate with particular AAs. There are three classic stop codes. Variants have been created as the OP mentions, dozens of AAs have been added artificially. The codons have been refocussed to store up to 16 GB of Wikipedia, illustrating the string data structure framework. I doubt that any of the main points is new to you. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PDT
AF et al, The genetic code is a symbolic code, which is inherently linguistic, having characteristics of language. Where, we see that DNA and mRNA use the code to express algorithms for AA chaining towards protein synthesis. You have repeatedly ignored the consensus based on Nobel Prize winning experiments, because of ideological reasons, just as you have tried to pretend for months that to suggest that the genetic code is a code just as the label on the tin says, reflects ignorance, and you refused to be corrected from Lehninger and heirs, Brenner and the reviewers and editors of Nature, or just simply the well known facts. You had ample opportunity, you doubled down on denial. You shattered your own credibility, live with the consequences. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
Living entities use signals all the time to indicate a particular situation. It doesn't have grammar or syntax but definitely there is communication going on about a particular state of the organism or the environment in which the entity is currently in. Is this a language. I would say so but trying to use human language to analyze it is absurd. In a cell or very primitive life form it could be a chemical signal indicating a state of the cell or life form. We have all witnessed birds singing or making noises. That is communication and a language. But not all codes are life based but all codes are intelligent or life based. The more complicated the code, the higher is the intelligence that created it. Codons are definitely highly complicated codes. But here we are wasting time commenting on the obvious. But this is UD where ID gets ignored and obvious minutiae gets discussed in detail.jerry
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:22 PM
12
12
22
PM
PDT
FP/AF/KM/AF, drop it, we have the receipts. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:16 PM
12
12
16
PM
PDT
Jerry, codes are languages and languages are codes. It's about the (functional ) information that is encoded ,transmitted - received and decoded. It's not important the way :spoken or written words,smoke signals, flashlight signals, morse signals or transcription translation signals. There is no way around there is no known code that is created by a natural process. All the codes are designed by a mind. DNA is a code therefore is designed by a Mind. ;)Sandy
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
@131
The genetic code is not a language. Using words carelessly and anthropomorphically doesn’t change the fact that talking of codes and languages is an exercise in poor analogy.
I'm certainly no expert in linguistics or in philosophy of language, but from what I've read over the years, natural languages have some features in common, including syntax, semantics, and pragmatics. 1. Recursive grammar that encodes morphosyntatic alignment. 2. A topic/comment distinction that marks the difference between what one is talking about and what one is saying about that topic. 3. A range of utterances including declaratives, indicatives, interrogatives, and imperatives. 4. Pragmatics including use of language to track avowals, commitments, attributions amongst inferences 5. Distinction between indexical and non-indexical terms to indicate what assertions are agent-relative and which ones are not. 6. Syntactical devices such as anaophora and deixis to indicate context-dependent senses and references. Again, I'm no expert in any this stuff. I've read a few books and it's come up in my research over the years. Regardless, my understanding is that these are found in all natural languages, which makes sense if one considers the importance of language in facilitating social learning in hominids. Needless to say, I don't see how there's anything like a natural language when it comes to genetic information. How would one identify whether a genetic sequence is an interrogative or a declarative? What would be the nucleotide analogue of anaphora or deixis? I honestly think that anyone who insists that the genetic code is a language, needs to take some time to study linguistics and find out what actually makes something a language.PyrrhoManiac1
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
Alan Fox (not Ford Prefect or Ken Middlebrook) writes:
The genetic code is not a language. Using words carelessly and anthropomorphically doesn’t change the fact that talking of codes and languages is an exercise in poor analogy.
Not to mention an exercise in misdirection. When describing a scientific observation, we are limited by the language we use to describe it. Certain strings of DNA undergo chemical reactions to form a specific protein. The arrangement of amino acids in the protein is dependent on arrangement of nucleotides in the DNA/RNA. For lack of a better word, biologists refer to the DNA “code.” Which, as an analogy to describe the link between DNA triplet nucleotides and amino acids, is a reasonable analogy. But all analogies have their weaknesses. With the DNA “code,” the weakness is that some people, due to their religious views, misrepresent the term to argue that an intelligence must be behind the “code.” Which is a leap of faith, not of science.Ford Prefect
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
12:06 PM
12
12
06
PM
PDT
Codes are linguistic phenomena (as I noted), not necessarily full orbed languages themselves.
The genetic code is not a language. Using words carelessly and anthropomorphically doesn't change the fact that talking of codes and languages is an exercise in poor analogy.Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
PS, that makes four aliases in one thread.
Who isn't using an alias in this thread? I'm in the minority using my real name. Fair enough, I was posting using the pseudonym Fred Hickson until I gathered the current moderation policy here at UD has relaxed a bit compared to other times, when I reverted to my much-preferred real name. I have never posted comments concurrently under more than one user name.Alan Fox
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
Codes are linguistic phenomena
No, they are not necessarily. They may be most of the time but there is no necessity that a code be a language. I can imagine someone creating a series of steps based on physical entities which have the only purpose of controlling other physical entities. So they are not a language unless you want to say a physical entity controlling another physical entity is a language. Unless you are saying that anything controlling something else is a language. It is certainly like a language but is definitely not a language in how anyone uses the term. Suppose I construct a series of water channels that lead water out of a valley. As the water get higher, the water goes to a different valley. But if the water gets too high it cuts off all the water coming into a valley through the main source by some sort of mechanism. Maybe a mud slide or maybe some other physical event that is reversible when the water level goes down. Tell me how that is different than your code and why it is a language. There is definitely information in the water flow construction and It's definitely intelligent made. No one would deny that. But no one would call it a language. Language is reserved for live entities communicating with other live entities. Codons while in a live entity are not a live entity.jerry
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT
More generally, the burden of proof requires that a claimant provide evidence and arguments to support their claim if they are concerned about persuading an audience of the merits of such claims.Seversky
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT
Kairosfocus writes:
breeding is not engineering.
Sure it is. It is just indirect genetic engineering. From our friends at Wiki:
The term engineering is derived from the Latin ingenium, meaning "cleverness" and ingeniare, meaning "to contrive, devise"
How does artificial selection not fall under this umbrella?Ford Prefect
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT
I feel I should point out that it is not the job for those of us who can clearly see the obvious, to convince the nincompoop anti-ID crowd of their error. Our job is not to convince the nincompoops but to expose their lunacy.ram
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PDT
Kairosfocus writes:
PS, that makes four aliases in one thread.
Do you ever get tired of seeing conspiracies everywhere? I admit posting as KM (my real name btw). I am toying with the idea of dumping anonymity. But I have never posted as AF or FH.Ford Prefect
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
10:21 AM
10
10
21
AM
PDT
Jerry (& attn PM1): Codes are linguistic phenomena (as I noted), not necessarily full orbed languages themselves. They may appear in machines and systems without someone who is a conscious language user immediately acting, but that is about function not causal origin. We empirically know the causal origin of symbolic codes, language using intelligence, so I for cause read the code as a sign pointing to the causal source. If PM1 wishes to object, let him highlight an actually observed case of complex symbolic encoding of known origin that was not caused by a language using intelligence; instead of pretending that he is dealing with faulty syllogisms. As he is at that task, let him also identify the distinction between what is linguistic and what is a language. Let him further explain how symbolic frameworks and protocols associated with algorithms are not acts of language using intelligence. Indeed, the design of such a complex code based system is a case of FSCO/I. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2023
March
03
Mar
19
19
2023
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PDT
1 9 10 11 12 13 16

Leave a Reply