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“Liar, liar, pants on fire”? Ten Tough Questions for Professor Dawkins.

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For several years now, Professor Richard Dawkins, the renowned evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, has refused to debate the topic of God’s existence with the philosopher and Christian apologist, Professor William Lane Craig. That is Professor Dawkins’ privilege; he is under no obligation to debate with anyone. Until recently, Dawkins’ favorite reason for refusing to face off against Professor William Lane Craig was that Craig was nothing more than a professional debater. But now, in an article in The Guardian (20 October 2011) entitled, Why I refuse to debate with William Lane Craig, Richard Dawkins leads off by firing this salvo: “This Christian ‘philosopher’ is an apologist for genocide. I would rather leave an empty chair than share a platform with him.”

In the same article, Professor Dawkins savagely castigates William Lane Craig for his willingness to justify “genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament”. According to Dawkins, “Most churchmen these days wisely disown the horrific genocides ordered by the God of the Old Testament” – unlike Craig, who argues that “the Canaanites were debauched and sinful and therefore deserved to be slaughtered.” Dawkins then quotes William Lane Craig as justifying the slaughter on the grounds that: (i) if these children had been allowed to live, they would have turned the Israelites towards serving the evil Canaanite gods; and (ii) the children who were slaughtered would have gone to Heaven instantly when they died, so God did them no wrong in taking their lives. Dawkins triumphantly concludes:

Would you shake hands with a man who could write stuff like that? Would you share a platform with him? I wouldn’t, and I won’t. Even if I were not engaged to be in London on the day in question, I would be proud to leave that chair in Oxford eloquently empty.

Professor Dawkins, allow me to briefly introduce myself. My name is Vincent Torley (my Web page is here), and I have a Ph.D. in philosophy. I’m an Intelligent Design proponent who also believes that modern life-forms are descended from a common ancestor that lived around four billion years ago. I’m an occasional contributor to the Intelligent Design Website, Uncommon Descent. Apart from that, I’m nobody of any consequence.

Professor Dawkins, I have ten charges to make against you, and they relate to apparent cases of lying, hypocrisy and moral inconsistency on your part. Brace yourself. I’ve listed the charges for the benefits of people reading this post.

My Ten Charges against Professor Richard Dawkins

1. Professor Dawkins has apparently lied to his own readers at the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science. In a recent post (dated 1 May 2011) he stated that he “didn’t know quite how evil [William Lane Craig’s] theology is” until atheist blogger Greta Christina alerted him to Craig’s views in an article she wrote on 25 April 2011, when in fact, Dawkins had already read Professor Craig’s “staggeringly awful” essay on the slaughter of the Canaanites and blogged about it in his personal forum (http://forum.richarddawkins.net), three years earlier, on 21 April 2008. In other words, Professor Dawkins’ alleged shock at recently discovering Craig’s “evil” views turns out to have been feigned: he knew about these views some years ago.

2. Professor Dawkins has recently maligned Professor William Lane Craig as a “fundamentalist nutbag” who isn’t even a real philosopher and whose only claim to fame is that he is a professional debater, but his own statements about Craig back in 2008 completely contradict these assertions. Moreover, Dawkins’ characterization of Craig as a “fundamentalist nutbag” is particularly unjust, given that Professor Craig has admitted that he’s quite willing to change his mind on the slaughter of the Canaanites, if proven wrong. Although Professor Craig upholds Biblical inerrancy, he does so provisionally: he says it’s possible that the Bible might be sometimes wrong on moral matters, and furthermore, he acknowledges that the Canaanite conquest might not have even happened, as an historical event. That certainly doesn’t sound like the writings of a “nutbag” to me.

3. Professor Dawkins says that he refuses to share a platform with William Lane Craig, because of his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites, but he has already debated someone who holds substantially the same views as Craig on the slaughter of the Canaanites. On 23 October 1996, Dawkins debated Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, who also believes that the slaughter of the Canaanites was morally justified under the circumstances at the time (see here and here). What’s more, in 2006, Dawkins appeared in a television panel with Professor Richard Swinburne, who holds the same view. Dawkins might reply that Swinburne did not make his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites public until 2011, but as I shall argue below, he can hardly make the same excuse about not knowing Rabbi Boteach’s views. If he did not know, then he was extraordinarily naive.

4. Professor Dawkins refuses on principle to share a platform with William Lane Craig because of his views on the slaughter of the Canaanites, yet he is perfectly willing to share a platform with atheists whose moral opinions are far more horrendous: Dan Barker, who says that child rape could be moral if it were absolutely necessary in order to save humanity; Dr. Sam Harris, who says that pushing an innocent man into the path of an oncoming train is OK, if it is necessary in order to save a greater number of human lives; and Professor Peter Singer, who believes that sex with animals is not intrinsically wrong, if both parties consent.

5. Professor Dawkins refuses to share a platform with William Lane Craig, who holds that God commanded the Israelites to slaughter Canaanite babies whom He subsequently recompensed with eternal life in the hereafter. However, he is quite happy to share a platform with Professor P. Z. Myers, who doesn’t even regard newborn babies as people with a right to life. (See here for P.Z. Myers’ original post, here for one reader’s comment and here for P. Z. Myers’ reply, in which he makes his own views plain.) Nor does Professor Peter Singer, whom Dawkins interviewed back in 2009, regard newborn babies as people with a right to life. (See this article.)

6. Apparently Professor Dawkins himself does not believe that a newborn human baby is a person with the same right to life that you or I have, and does not believe that the killing of a healthy newborn baby is just as wrong as the act of killing you or me. For he sees nothing intrinsically wrong with the killing of a one- or two-year-old baby suffering from a horrible incurable disease, that meant it was going to die in agony in later life (see this video at 24:12). He also claims in The God Delusion (Boston & New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006, p. 293) that the immorality of killing an individual is tied to the degree of suffering it is capable of. By that logic, it must follow that killing a healthy newborn baby, whose nervous system is still not completely developed, is not as bad as killing an adult.

7. In his article in The Guardian (20 October 2011) condemning William Lane Craig, Professor Dawkins fails to explain exactly why it would be wrong under all circumstances for God (if He existed) to take the life of an innocent human baby, if that baby was compensated with eternal life in the hereafter. In fact, as I will demonstrate below, if we look at the most common arguments against killing the innocent, then it is impossible to construct a knock-down case establishing that this act of God would be wrong under all possible circumstances. Strange as it may seem, there are always some possible circumstances we can envisage, in which it might be right for God to act in this way.

8. Professor Dawkins declines to say whether he agrees with some of his fans and followers, who consider the God of the Old Testament to be morally equivalent to Hitler (see here and here for examples). However, the very comparison is odious, for in the same Old Testament books which Dawkins condemns, God exhorts the Israelites: “Do not seek revenge”; “Love your neighbor as yourself” and: “The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 19:18, 33-34, NIV.) That certainly doesn’t sound like Hitler to me – and I’ve personally visited Auschwitz and Birkenau. I wonder if Professor Dawkins has.

9. Dawkins singles out Professor William Lane Craig for condemnation as a “fundamentalist nutbag”, but he fails to realize that Professor William Lane Craig’s views on the slaughter of the Canaanites were shared by St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, the Bible commentator Matthew Henry, and John Wesley, as well as some modern Christian philosophers of eminent standing, such as Richard Swinburne, whom he appeared on a television panel with in 2006. Is he prepared to call all these people “nutbags” too? That’s a lot of crazy people, I must say.

10. Unlike the late Stephen Jay Gould (who maintained that the experiment would be just about the most unethical thing he could imagine), Professor Dawkins believes that the creation of a hybrid between humans and chimps “might be a very moral thing to do”, so long as it was not exploited or treated like a circus freak (see this video at 40:33), although he later concedes that if only one were created, it might get lonely (perhaps a group of hybrids would be OK, then?) Dawkins has destroyed his own moral credibility by making such a ridiculous statement. How can he possibly expect us to take him seriously when he talks about ethics, from now on?

Professor Dawkins, I understand that you are a very busy man. Nevertheless, I should warn you that a failure to answer these charges will expose you to charges of apparent lying, character assassination, public hypocrisy, as well as an ethical double-standard on your part. The choice is yours.

Read the rest of the article here.

Comments
markf, I think you're correct in pointing out that there are limits to free will. We aren't completely autonomous. However, the limits to free will do not prevent us from acting on the aim of God's providing us with free will in the first place, and that's to freely love; to love God, and to love others as ourselves. There's nothing that God would do to prevent us from doing these things. One of my favorite passages of scripture in this regard is Galatians 5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." So there's no law against doing good. There is only law against doing evil. There's no limit to doing good as far as free will is concerned. If we wanted to indulge as much as we could, there is nothing from God that would stop us. If, however, we wanted to do as much evil as our heart would allow, there are restraints on such acts. So while God does not force us to do good, he certainly encourages it.CannuckianYankee
October 28, 2011
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Yes. I don't see a problem with that. I'm not saying God doesn't give constraints and limits. But those limits are obviously very broad.Collin
October 28, 2011
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He allows a certain amount of free will - but apparently there is a limit. If free will takes you down the wrong path, and you get a warning but still don't repent - then end of free will!markf
October 28, 2011
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He gives them a chance to repent and then acts after they reach a certain point of degradation. An omnipotent but good diety may allow evil if his goal is to create a species that has free will like he does. This may sound blasphemous to some, but to me it is kind of like God is lonely and wants something other than rocks and space to talk to. Something that He can relate or that can even surprise him. But His forebearance will only last so long and an evildoer will eventually be stopped by God's justice. But it takes a long time for that; God let's the evildoer have ever chance to repent.Collin
October 28, 2011
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You asked why an omnipotent Deity can’t make evildoers good, or at the very least, make them stop engaging in evil practices (such as killing children). The short answer is: free will. Your first option would rule out the possibility of libertarian freedom.
But God did stop them engaging in evil - by killing them. So he certainly removed their free will. The question is why did he use this method.markf
October 28, 2011
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mullerpr,
Apart from highlighting our imperfect nature this deprived insight into God’s will has no effect on our free will and obligation to execute his moral decrees.
God makes it much easier for it now, because beyond excommunication there are no moral decrees for us to execute. No present or future acts of vengeance are to be committed by men. That means that we can separate those past events from any concerns about some religious figure telling us that God wants us to kill. That does happen, but hopefully we know not to listen, ever. A careful student of the Bible would have found grounds to reject a person's teachings long before it even came to that. Many "Christian" religions have confused this issue by suggesting that wars are still fought with God's endorsement. This has continued at least through the 20th century. I'm not saying that anyone should or should not fight in any given war. Make your own choice. But make no mistake - any warfare endorsed by God will be carried out by him and his armies, not by human soldiers.ScottAndrews2
October 28, 2011
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ScottAndrews2, I think we are in agreement on your comment of my first statement. My explanation of the similarity is in the inability for humans to see God's intent clearly. In this case God's intent for our moral obligation. Apart from highlighting our imperfect nature this deprived insight into God's will has no effect on our free will and obligation to execute his moral decrees. 1Co 13:12 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known. Hope this thought answers how we can get to a free will state of perfection in God's presence. Why has God not revealed himself to this degree? I just know the revelation of Christ is enough and while people focus on Christ their moral insight brightens almost to perfection, but we agree on the last words of the Bible: Rev 22:20-21 20 He who testifies these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly, Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus . 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.mullerpr
October 28, 2011
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This is so gross I can't believe I'm even saying it. But from a standpoint that defines "good" and "bad" in terms of benefits and effects, look at all the problems that would be solved if society accepted such use of animals. Less rape. Definitely fewer unintended pregnancies. And at least one more vegetarian. I don't say this to insult atheists. But you do realize that you must at the very least weigh this and consider whether it would be good or bad. And if you jump to a conclusion, ask yourself why. Now I'm going to go sanitize my keyboard and my hands.ScottAndrews2
October 28, 2011
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NickMatzke_UD wrote: "And, beastiality is wrong, but wronger than *genocide*? Gimme a break." I'm curious, why, from an atheistic viewpoint, is beastiality wrong? Surely it's not "wrong", but only morally objectionable to you as an individual.Stu7
October 28, 2011
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An inconsistency in argumentation seems inevitable when a materialist, who objects to the kinds of killing we have at hand attempts to show that it is inconsistent with a loving God. First of all, your first two premises are incorrect. "God wanted these people to be put to death." Actual scripture states that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." That's an important distinction, because as the narrative points out, after 400 years of God's patience, they did not come to repentance. So I don't think it's so much that God wanted them to be put to death; quite the contrary. God prevented such an act for 400 years. So I wonder how many Canaanites were actually spared His final judgment in that amount of time. Probably thousands. In order to make your argument consistent you really must be consistent with what scripture states and what it doesn't state. So the truth of the matter would seem that God is being consistent with his nature as a loving provider by eliminating an obstacle to the Israelites' acceptance of his loving providence, however reluctantly (if that's a term that can be attributed to God). He's also being consistent with many warnings he had given that the acts of the Canaanites would lead to their own destruction; whether naturally or by divine intervention. Your second premise, that God is against killing is also problematic. "Thou shall not kill" has a context that does not apply to the giver of life. Scripture makes this quite explicit throughout. So God Himself is not so much opposed to killing as He is opposed to human beings - his creatures taking it upon themselves to kill. God as judge would not be opposed to all killing despite His will that all should live. Furthermore, His non-objection to killing is not counter to His loving nature. It in-fact supports it, in that there is evil in the world. Killing as an act of judgement or safety providence is therefore as much an act of love as giving life. It all depends on the circumstances. Another inconsistency that is quite glaring here, and I'm surprised that nobody has yet pointed it out, is that now all of a sudden, the materialists, who are normally the staunch moral relativists have become the moral absolutists on this one position. Interesting.CannuckianYankee
October 28, 2011
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Timbo, You asked why an omnipotent Deity can't make evildoers good, or at the very least, make them stop engaging in evil practices (such as killing children). The short answer is: free will. Your first option would rule out the possibility of libertarian freedom. Do you really want that? And on your second option, God would have to be continually intervening to stop the Canaanites from killing children, over a period of hundreds of years. That sounds messy - and if He did that, presumably He'd be obliged to stop every other act of murder occurring on the planet, too. And that's not all. To be fair and consistent, God would have to stop everyone from hurting anyone else. That makes God a cosmic nanny. Kairosfocus and Scott Andrews2 are spot on in their comments. The possibility of evil is the price of libertarian freedom.vjtorley
October 28, 2011
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Craig actually makes a distinction between quantum "events" and material things that exist. He believes that everything that comes into existence has a cause, but that it does not necessarily apply to events. Events can theoretically occur without a cause and without affecting the argument as a whole. One thing Craig does is pay fairly close attention to what his opponents are saying, as illustrated by this point, which was first brought up in response to just such a detraction. Jim Carrey in the Truman Show eventually figured out that he lived inside a bubble and supposed that there was something outside of it. Nice illustration; in fact beautifully done, but it doesn't quite work. There were signs inside the bubble, which led to the conclusion that the bubble was not all that existed. I think that Craig makes a similar observation. Materialists might agree, but that the something is other than God. He's not enforcing an internal rule, but enforcing internal observation. The fact is that we don't know through observation that there is something outside the bubble. We are limited by what we can observe internally. It's the signs that we can observe internally, which could give us limited hints as to what (if anything) lies externally. But even that might have its limits. If the character played by Ed Harris had done a better job in preventing the anomalies Carrey's character encountered throughout the film, then perhaps Carrey (Truman) would never have discovered the truth. But that wouldn't then mean that there was no truth to be discovered. Craig I believe would argue that evidence of what is external is set up intentionally not only through what is observed, but also through understanding and reasoning alone, however limited in scope. So for Craig, he's not extending the limits of causality outside of the bubble. He's invoking what primarily lies within. What lies without; in Craig's view is limitless (namely God); which would seem to lend some credence to the counterintuitive nature of quantum events as BA77 in particular (among others) has pointed out in several posts of late.CannuckianYankee
October 28, 2011
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what I usually see from him in debates is that which is carefully drawn out and defended.
Kind of. But I think I'd go with Dennett's assessment. There is a logical sequence that one can follow, and if one isn't alert, the whole thing can seem essentially sound. But to pick one example, on the cosmological argument, he states up front that the 'fundamental principle of metaphysics' is that everything has a cause. He goes on to suggest Bengal tigers popping into existence uncaused as an example of such tomfoolery. But we essentially live in a 'causal bubble' - the universe. Or, in fact, on a scale within it, well above the quantum level, that has that nice regularity. Tigers are part of it, and obviously don't disobey these regularities. But looking outside the bubble - to extend internal rules on causality beyond its boundaries, to the universe itself - I can see the appeal, but I can't agree with the logic. We're a bit like Jim Carrey in the Truman Show. It all makes sense inside the bubble. What causal inferences we can make about the outside - as Dennett says - are likely to be mind-boggling whichever way they pan out.Chas D
October 28, 2011
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Yeah, I agree as far as debates are concerned; but where Dawkins falters is that he does debate others; so if he were to use the argument that he writes better than he speaks (which I don't think is really accurate and not really what you even suggest) is not entirely a good argument for avoiding certain debates. Perhaps that's why he really hasn't invoked that as his reason. My own view on the matter is that debates for one reason or other often intentionally lack in substance, and so really the intention is for the audience to have a cursory introduction to the arguments at hand for further investigation on their own, so they can make up their own minds. Opinions are often formed by debates, as American political debates can attest to. I find it interesting that in colleges, a person involved in a debating class or club will often argue a contrary position to their own. So to me I think the skill is not so much in having the "correct" view, but in possessing the strength of argument to make one's own views appear more reasonable than one's opponent. Of course there are some views that are simply not intellectually appetizing, no matter the strength by which they are presented. So debates are what I would call an intellectual spectacle intended to gain interest. In that area I would say that Craig's debates often end up being the ultimate intellectual spectacle for the uninitiated (and sometimes the initiated) on particular views about God's existence in general. He's certainly a champion in that regard. I think he erred slightly in his argument for the justness of the Canaanite slaughter. I don't disagree with his views; I just think he could have presented them in a manner that would seem more impeccable than they appear to some of his opponents. Perhaps it's not an issue he has had to confront too often, because what I usually see from him in debates is that which is carefully drawn out and defended.CannuckianYankee
October 28, 2011
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I simply mean that one is entitled to enter a debate on morality, and argue against (ie challenge) someone's position, without sharing their view on its source. The fact that one does not share their belief does not disbar one from pointing out inconsistencies in their interpretation. "God wanted these people to be put to death." "God is supposed to be loving and just, and is dead against killing". "You don't believe in God, so butt out!"Chas D
October 28, 2011
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CY - a very thoughtful post, thanks. I wouldn't go the whole way with you, but appreciate the viewpoint. My own 2 cents is that a debate is just a debate ... like the kids at school who offered to fight me - for what? To prove who is the better fighter? Wow. Probably you. Next! The debaters aren't out to change each others minds, as might be at least possible in a direct unobserved discussion. They are very aware of, and playing to, their audience, and hoping to 'win' some ballot (that is never cast). And this happens on the Net too - the new home of somewhat self-aware posturing. Dawkins has of course dipped a very deliberate toe into something I would be a little more circumspect about. I can see how he got to that position, as a writer on evolution with a bulging postbag of Creationist misunderstandings. A determined rationalist, religion simply bugs the hell out of him. He's not a bad speaker, but his strength is his writing. (Not everything he ever wrote, any more than everything Craig ever said was logically impeccable). OK, maybe that was 3 cents!Chas D
October 28, 2011
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It's sort of similar to "The dog ate my homework."CannuckianYankee
October 28, 2011
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T: We see here the terrible flipside of one of the greatest gifts we have from God, without which life is meaningless: we can love. So, we must be able to choose, and to choose implies the ability to be really selfish, thus evil. God in justice holds us to account and uses our limited lifespan, to restrain such evil from going totally out of hand. And, in the worldview in question, he himself took the full price of redemptive restoration in his own body, so that we may live in a new and complete world in which those who choose love may live by it forever. And, those who choose selfishness, too. If you prefer a robot world or an erase-reboot game world to that, kindly explain why. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 27, 2011
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Thanks for this thoughtful post.Collin
October 27, 2011
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Dr Liddle: you just condemned the world to be subjected to the genocidal mania of Hitler and the Japanese militarists. That's why I have written in the vein I do here on this subject. There are no easy answers in a world of radically demonic irreconcilable evil. (And you are in no position to dismiss the demonic as only metaphorical if you have not fully grappled wit the case of Hitler, the carpet-chewer.) So, Craig is fundamentally right that we must start with what is plain and well founded before we address what is difficult, in light of what we have established before. And, I am on record on this matter that there is no easy, non-difficult answer, including he view that lies behind Dawkins' dismissal. Such is always the case with major worldview issues. But there is more, an issue of tone, responsiveness and attitude. Once we reckon with the realities of needing to confront unbridled evil in this world, and its aggressive propagation by sword or by ideology or both, and the problem of irreconcilable blood feuds as a significant feature of the culture in question [something the Romans faced with Carthage and Hannibal], we need to take a long, slow pause before pronouncing too confidently on this matter. Unless our hearts have lurched like Marshal Petain's by that roadside on the way to the Verdun Front in 1916, we are in no good position of being sufficiently morally wounded and hurt, to make a sound judgement on this. (And that, BTW, is the glaring gap between Craig and Dawkins on this matter: Craig is speaking as one wounded by grappling with a really hard difficulty leading to uncertainties and open-endedness in his position, Dawkins is using a supercilious and insincere smearing talking point to dodge having to have the moral courage to defend some really outrageous assertions against Christians, the Scriptures and God.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
October 27, 2011
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"copson cop-out" Very well phrased. Thanks for the interesting thoughts.Collin
October 27, 2011
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“How can genocide be just?' Wrong question. First ask yourself this: 'Could it ever be right for God to kill an evildoer?'” Exactly! If we don't have an understanding of justice there's no real basis for talking about morality. It all becomes either as Dr. Liddle likes to point out, an exercise merely in invoking the golden rule, or might makes right. The inadequacy of the golden rule should be obvious to anyone when one considers that doing unto others as I would have them do unto me does not consider that evil exists. If I'm evil, and I do unto others as I would have them do unto me, I might have them also do evil, or do the evil that I would have them do unto me - for example, asking someone to kill someone for me. It's an inadequate basis for morality without some idea about justice and goodness. Of course I think we all understand the injustice of might makes right.CannuckianYankee
October 27, 2011
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ScottAndrews2,
Any way you slice it, someone isn’t flourishing. Some are doing quite poorly. Many die every day, including children. We’re all on our way there. If we look past our own relative comfort, the world is pretty crappy place for a lot of people, and no U.N. or anyone else know what to do about it. Where is your outrage?
I know of no god extant upon wish to lay any outrage. For human affairs, my outrage lays wherever I find cause. Only 12% of Afghan women are literate, I just read in the paper, and they have a life expectancy of 48 years. They have one of the highest fertility rates in the world, and yet Afghan women have one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world (top three or four, something like 150 deaths/1000 births). This is due in no small part to fanatical religion. Authoritarian politics, lack of medicines, education, and just clean water to drink, all bear cause for concern, charity, outrage. As for starting points, all humans are their own starting point, even the voluntarists. William Lane Craig says God is just no matter what vile thing God may do, and that's Craig's view because he says that's how it is. It is so for him because he said so, it starts with him, and his mind choosing Yahweh. Same goes for you, if you worship Yahweh. He is your authority because you have begun with your choice (your overarching authority) to subscribe to the demands of Yahweh. He's your authority because you say he is, and you are the starting point. No different for me, I just think there are much better heuristics and values to embrace than those of Yahweh, even in the unlikely case that such a thing does exist. As for watching their children die, humanism is a powerful engine toward charity, aid and direct support. It also propels human progress in ways that help indirectly -- I understand great progress is being made in (materialist!) medicine against malaria in recent months, a breakthrough that could mean a profound development in the well being and health of millions and millions of the world's most poor and underprivileged. I've not yet seen the prayer that does a damn thing for a kid with malaria -- prayers are for the satisfaction of the ones praying, so far as anyone can tell.eigenstate
October 27, 2011
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I started a new blog here: http://onkalam.blogspot.com/ where I discuss Dennett's presentation a little more in-depth, and I plan to include a post on Dawkins' reasons for refusing to debate Craig, but I need to do some more in-depth research on several issues regarding Craig's views and Dawkins' published statement. I wanted to have a blog so that I can keep my own thoughts in order, and blogging is an excellent way of doing that. Also, I wanted to have a good forum for something a little more in-depth than the theological discussions we often have here. Of course I will continue to comment here as well. Hopefully others will join in discussion -everyone here is welcome. Eventually the blog will be linked to my name.CannuckianYankee
October 27, 2011
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If you follow the premises, everything can be reduced to matter in motion. So why should I, if I assume atheism is true, care one way or the other?geoffrobinson
October 27, 2011
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Eigenstate, Any way you slice it, someone isn't flourishing. Some are doing quite poorly. Many die every day, including children. We're all on our way there. If we look past our own relative comfort, the world is pretty crappy place for a lot of people, and no U.N. or anyone else know what to do about it. Where is your outrage? You make the common mistake of believing that your own wisdom and your own understanding are the starting point. They are the ruler against which all others are measured.
Humans are messy, conflicted, complex, challenging beings, psychologically. Human morals and ethics are similarly problematic, for that very reason.
That's for sure. Compare the world of today with that of 100 years ago. Granted, every evil in the world today was present then. But the comparison stops there. How many millions have died in wars? How many are starving to death? How many have experienced sexual abuse within their own homes? How many men are addicted to degrading pornography? How many suffer poverty to provide others with excessive wealth and comfort? How many die of cheaply preventable diseases because their lives aren't worth the cost of a few cans of cat food? Besides some helpful advances in technology, this is what earthly knowledge and wisdom have amounted to. Show me a man, or men, women, anyone who can reverse this avalanche and I'll show you someone worthy to question God. People living in relative paradise believe in such humanistic drivel. The rest sit around wondering why you can't help them as they watch their children die.ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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Timbo,
As an omnipotent entity he can just make the evildoer not evil with a flick of his fingers surely?
God has a number of creations that do what they are supposed to do with no choice. They are called plants and animals. How can we exist in God's image without choosing to do what is right?ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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mullerpr,
People then and now would simply not have the means to assert that the divine command is there to overrule our moral obligation.
If anyone ever tells you that God wants you to kill one person or lots of them, run. That was a specific time and place, and it is past. It's notable that in the first century Christians refused military service. There was no question of whether killing was just, unjust, war, etc. That didn't change until years later when they threw the Bible out the window. But back then, these people had witnessed the parting of the Red Sea, a pillar of fire leading them at night and one of cloud by day, the miraculous provisions of food from the sky and water from rock, and a quaking, smoking mountain. They never had to wonder where their orders were coming from. There was allowance for those without the stomach for it. If you couldn't do it you just went home. It's interesting that God did not want David to build his temple because he had engaged in warfare. Those wars were proper, but to an extent it had a defiling effect. It's noteworthy that everyone knew that God was fighting for Israel, but responded differently. Some went to great lengths to make peace. Others made a deliberate decision to fight God to the death. Where is their responsibility?
In summary, it should be clear from our own human experience that we cannot assume that it were simply a Divine decree that moved the Israelites to execute a Divine judgment like this.
Our only knowledge of these events is from the Bible. If you don't believe that God commanded it, why believe it even happened at all?ScottAndrews2
October 27, 2011
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eigenstate, and exactly how is it possible for a atheist to debase himself any further than his materialistic philosophy has already debased him of true value? It is interesting to point out that the materialistic philosophy has an extremely difficult time assigning any proper value to humans in the first place, i.e. Just how do you derive value for a person from a philosophy that maintains transcendent values are illusory?:
How much is my body worth? Excerpt: The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body,,,,Together, all of the above (chemicals and minerals) amounts to less than one dollar! http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/worth.asp
Whereas Theism, particularly Christianity, has no trouble whatsoever figuring out how much humans are worth, since infinite almighty God has shown us how much we mean to him:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Casting Crowns – Who am I? with lyrics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt7OZyBj5Ik
bornagain77
October 27, 2011
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I don't think Dennett really believes that abstracts can be causal. He uses that argument against Craig's idea of God as an abstract entity that is causal, but it's a strawman, because that's not really Craig's idea of God. What I found interesting is his statement that a changeless God would be "a deist God at best." I hardly find any basis for such an assertion.CannuckianYankee
October 27, 2011
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