Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
PPS: Loads to preview but not to the page. Okay, go here.kairosfocus
February 5, 2010
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PS: Pardon a try to load the song: kairosfocus
February 5, 2010
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FG: Since it is so revealing on an underlying major error in our day, let us follow up further, from your 311, starting with: zero is a concept in the minds of men, therefore it is a process of the brain. Are you suggesting ‘zero’ would exist if there were no people to contemplate it?. (And BTW StephenB, looks like your opening knock is about the most active thread at UD currently. Well done!) At 324,I noted from Aristotle:
(Metaphysics 1011b25): “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true . . .”
1 --> In short, we need to discern the crucial difference between real states of affairs in the world, and our perceptions or statements about them. 2 --> For, notoriously and undeniably (on pain of immediate reduction to absurdity), we sometimes err [and in certain cases do worse than merely erring: lie or willfully obfuscate]. 3 --> it is worth expanding slightly on the just linked:
WCT [Warranted, Credible Truth] 1: Error exists, so we should recognise that truth exists as what is there that we may be in error about; truth saying of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not. --> From this, we may immediately see that we can know that truth exists, so knowledge -- warranted, credible truth -- exists. --> Thus also, we may make mistakes about it so we need and OUGHT to be open to well-warranted correction.
4 --> Thus, immediately, perception or presence of particular states in processors, whether hard-wired PC's or biological wetware, will not do. For error conditions are undeniably possible in both cases. 5 --> Thus, the reality of zero-ness would exist whether or not any particular men or even all men collectively, perceived or conceived it in their minds. 6 --> By direct parallel, let us conceive of a time prior to the days of Aristotle, Eratosthenes and co, c 300 - 400 BC, where all men conceived the earth as flat. Did that mean that in reality the earth was then flat, and has now inflated itself into roundness once Aristotle saw that the shadow it casts on the moon in a lunar eclipse was always round so it MUST be more or less a ball? And did it acquire its particular diameter and circumference when Eratosthenes hit on the idea of measuring the angles of shadows at Alexandria and Syene [now Aswan]? 7 --> Such is manifestly immediately absurd. Thus, plainly, reality is antecedent to our discovery or conception of it. And in the sense of truth where it is synonymous to reality, truth is antecedent to our statement of it. 8 --> Thus, we see a vast realm of propositions: the primary bearers of truth-value . . . the meanings of [states of affairs-declarative] sentences, which are real in the sense of being true/false independent of our particular conceptions. As the just linked helpfully defines:
Propositions, we shall say, are the sharable objects of the attitudes [believing, doubting etc] and the primary bearers of truth and falsity. This stipulation rules out certain candidates for propositions, including thought- and utterance-tokens, which presumably are not sharable, and concrete events or facts [in the sense of realities], which presumably cannot be false.
8 --> So also, while zero-ness, one-ness, two-ness etc are instantiated or exemplified in particular sets that match the cardinality of the sequence of sets {},{*}, (*, *), {*, *, *} . . . -- which we may symbolise with the numerals 0, 1, 2, . . . [or I, II, III . . . , etc, etc] and then invent counting as a shorthand algorithm to target the set with the relevant cardinality -- the reality of natural numbers and zero is independent of our particular concepts and beliefs. 9 --> Indeed, we may then discover and even demonstrate additional realities, such as the transfinite number of the set of such sets, Aleph-null, by putting the even subset in one to one correspondence with the original set, etc. But the reality/ truth of such properties was there prior to our discovery and conceptualizations. 10 --> In short, we have here specified two transfinite realms of realities that are independent of, prior to and even corrective of our concepts and beliefs. Realms that are simply not dependent on material instantiation for their reality (though such instantiations help us form the concepts -- don't forget, I am a Richard Skempian, moderate constructivist!). 11 --> The cases also show us the divergence between the material operations with say toothpaste tube tops [one of my mom's favourite realia for teaching basic mathematics . . . yup; I inherited chalkdust in the blood, from both sides] and the abstract concepts, properties and operations that we are thus invited to discover by generalisation into the abstract, logical realm. 12 --> For instance [notice the invitation to "see" the abstraction], we recognise from the ellipsis above that we have identified a process that can be extended indefinitely to successively specify members of the set of naturals; eventually discovering that the set is transfinite. [And the relationship between aleph null and c the continuum transfinite is an example of a reality that is though as yet its specific nature is not identified; indeed, this may be a case of undecidable propositions relative to Gödel's incompleteness principles: there are always true mathematical propositions that are unreachable by any consistent set of axioms.] 13 --> So, now we face a whole realm of realities/truths that are immaterial, and that we know we are unable to fully fathom. Truth is plainly independent of our ability to conceive [worse, demonstrate] true claims. 14 --> Digging in deeper, truth is mental rather than material, in its characteristics: we understand it, believe (or disbelieve) it; which has precisely nothing to do with being caused by how our brains and CNS's may represent or code relevant information in action potentials and neural network interconnexions. (The reality of the music on a CD has nothing to do with the precise coding structures and algorithms used.) 15 --> Moreover, to accurately process such signals, our brains had to be wired correctly, per a very precise basic wiring diagram coded into the self-replicating, self-modifying and developmental system that develops a baby from a zygote. (By contrast, e.g. LSD reportedly in part acts by re-wiring the brain so you may hear colours and see sounds . . . youch. No wonder such drugs are called "hallucinogenic.") 16 --> Such an information-rich wiring diagram [tracing to DNA and the epigenetic structures of the cell that regulate how DNA information is used] is antecedent to the brain and to proper function in its environment. Indeed, it greatly exceeds the 1,000 bit/ yes-no decision chain threshold beyond which with great confidence we may conclude that intelligence is the source of functional complex organisation. 17 --> Further, as a self-replicating system, we see here that we are dealing with the Von Neumann architecture/ requisites [1949] for such entities:
(i) an underlying code to record/store the required information and to guide procedures for using it, (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader [[called “the constructor” by von Neumann] that reads and interprets the coded specifications and instructions, and (iv) implementing machines (and associated organisation and procedures) to carry out the specified replication (including that of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either: (1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that provide required specific materials and forms of energy by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
18 --> Now, too, parts (ii), (iii) and (iv) are each necessary for and together are jointly sufficient to implement a self-replicating von Neumann universal constructor. That is, we see here an irreducibly complex set of core components that must all be present in a properly organised, mutually matched fashion for a successful self-replicator to exist. 19 --> This is compounded by the requirement (i) for codes, requiring organised symbols and rules to specify both steps to take and formats for data structures to organise and store information, and (v) for appropriate material resources and energy sources. 20 --> Thus, multiply, we see on empirically well tested induction, that brains are credibly the product of prior art that uses already codes, blueprints, and complex functional organisation to achieve its purposes. 21 --> Thus also, brains and associated brain states do not create linguistically expressible realities, but are dependent upon such. 22 --> In short, the mental, abstract world is ontologically prior to and a causal ground for the human brain. Or, Mind comes before physical processor -- as we know from the history of invention of the computer. And, truth is mental rather than material in essence, though it may be instantiated physically, as my mom's toothpaste tube cap arithmetic operations so vividly demonstrated. [BTW, in comms theory and praxis, AM radio works by physically implementing the multiplication of sinusoids. And that is how I used to introduce radio theory, discussing the parallel between physical and mathematical operators. Electronics is the art and science that seeks to implement desired mathematical operations physically, exploiting the relevant electrical laws and properties of materials and certain carefully organised structures. But, ALU's are not conceiving ideas or thinking, they are simply processing i/p's to yield o/p's per how they are wired together internally and per the pre-loaded linguistically coded instructions that become chains of 1's and 0's that flexibly control successive, step by step [algorithmic] arrangements of circuits and how they process linguistically structured signals. Get your wiring or programming wrong and the PC will happily produce garbage.] 23 --> This is also directly consistent with the observation that the complex, fine-tuned functional organisation of the physics of the cosmos raises the point that it shows strong signs of being a product of prior art; i.e. design. 24 --> And so the truly destructive nature of the imposition of methodological naturalism as a censoring constraint on science and education etc begins to be evident:
a --> It arbitrarily blocks us from seeing truths and connexions between them that are there to be seen b --> It arbitrarily blocks fruitful critical integration of ideas from hitherto diverse fields of study. (It is the interfaces between ideas that usually stir up truly creative insights and syntheses. E.g. Newton was thinking about apples falling, moons swinging by in the sky and the mathematics of flow and change: voila, calculus, gravitation, and Mechanics, as well as modern astronomy and modern science more generally.) c --> It stirs up prejudices and hostility, bringing in the destructive dynamics and distortions of dirty power and rhetorical games, frustrating science in the unfettered pursuit of the truth of our world based on observation, analysis and collegial discussion. d --> It thus becomes the ultimate unrecognised science stopper. (Few tyrannies are as effective and sinister as that of an unexamined metaphysics. Precisely because they are invisible, the chains of mental slavery are the strongest, and subtlest of all. [Please read the parable of Plato's cave.]) e --> Since science is the perceived paragon and repository of epistemic virtue, reliable ways to find out the truth and resulting objectively well- warranted knowledge, it corrupts education and related policy, thus also the wider community and civilisation.
25 --> So, echoing Garvey and the song Marley wrote in tribute: "None but ourselves can free our minds." _________ It is time to break the chains of imposed materialism's mental slavery! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 5, 2010
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Adel DiBagno (#306, 307, 309) Thank you for your posts, in which you raised two interesting issues: the problem of induction and the question of whether God is comprehensible to the human mind. Regarding the problem of induction, you write (#307):
Absolute empirical truth is something I can’t even imagine. But I’m confident (meaning I think that there is a very high probability) that tomorrow will bring another sunrise.
I share your confidence. The only point I want to make here (and I think you would agree with me here) is that our confidence would be misplaced if we lived in a godless universe. For then we would have no reason to believe that things had a stable character, which makes them behave in a reliable fashion. To illustrate this point, think of the "grue" problem. Or imagine a world occupied by things but by "shmings" - objects that behaved like things, except that they "flip" to an alternative mode of behavior every 13.74 billion years. (The universe is believed to be 13.73 billion years old.) For instance, snow suddenly turns black, stars and planets suddenly change into gold and silver spheres, and so on. There is an infinite number of ways in which the universe could have a history identical with ours, and then change completely tomorrow - or the day after, or the day after that. Stars, such as the sun, might suddenly explode, dissolve into the void, turn into black ink, spin around in the sky, and so on. And these changes wouldn't have to be lawless either - we can all imagine a set of universal regularities identical to the laws of nature, except that they only hold for a certain length of time and are then suddenly replaced by a new set of regularities. In short: the laws of nature could break down in an infinite number of possible ways, at any one of an infinite number of future times (tomorrow, the next day, and so on). Yet the "default expectation" under which we all live our lives is that laws of the universe never change - or that if they do, they change only within the framework of some higher-level set of laws which doesn't change. But this belief of ours is merely a superstition, if we live in a godless world: the real reason why people believe it is that they'd go out of their minds if they didn't. Talk about wishful thinking! In a world made by a personal, essentially loving Being who was incapable of lying, on the other hand, tomorrow's sunrise would be a pretty good bet. You also wrote (#306):
Moreover, God’s causative power is incomprehensible, whereas secondary causes are comprehensible. If secondary causes were not comprehensible, we couldn’t have science. If God’s causative power were comprehensible, science could study Him.
I don't think God is altogether incomprehensible. I think God must be to some degree comprehensible to the human mind. Like Duns Scotus, I believe that the verbs "know" and "love" (which denote pure perfections that of themselves admit of no inherent limitation) have exactly the same meaning when applied to God as they do when applied to us - the only differences being that the way in which God knows and loves is altogether different from ours, and well as the extent to which God does so (as He is infinite and we are finite). In other words, God differs from us in His mode and degree of knowledge and love, but the words "know" and "love" have the same meaning for God as they do for us. Why is this important? Well, back in the eighties I was reading Professor Paul Davies' book, God and the New Physics, and there I came across a passage in which he wrote that while it may be tempting to ascribe the laws of Nature to God, that wouldn't explain anything. Davies wanted to know why we lived in this kind of world, with these laws. If such an explanation were not forthcoming, God would be an unhelpful hypothesis for physicists - what we might call a science-stopper today. When I read that passage by Davies, I thought to myself: "He's right." I realized that if religious believers want to be taken seriously by scientists rather than laughed off as relics of the past, they would have to come up with a very specific model of God's action in the world, allowing scientists to predict future discoveries. That's a risky course of action, of course: predictions can often be wrong. Yet it has to be done. It's better to be wrong than to be irrelevant. Somehow, we have to second-guess God's motives in making the cosmos, and imagine how we would make it if we were in God's shoes - all the while keeping in mind that we are merely thinking God's thoughts after Him, as Newton put it. For instance, one of the reasons why I'm interested in Garrett Lisi's "Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" (see here for a discussion) is a famous remark he made in an interview, that his model is based on the most mathematically beautiful geometrical structure: E8. That impressed me. I thought to myself: that would be the geometry I'd expect God to use, if He were making the cosmos. So I'm very interested to see if Lisi's predictions are borne out or not. Can there be a science of God? There cannot be a science of Infinite Being as such, but there can be a science of intelligence and a science of love. In both these sciences, the ability to put oneself in the other person's shoes is of vital importance. (Just ask any spy - or for that matter, any great humanitarian.) If intelligence and love are what explains the cosmos, then there can be a branch of science that deals with how God made the cosmos. You also write:
…[S]cience … is the study of God’s creation. Theology is the proper study of God.
Theology is the study of God as such. But I believe science can attempt to discover what God had in mind when creating the world. Got to rush now. Hope that helps.vjtorley
February 4, 2010
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vjtorley @ 175 My apologies for the late reply but there were some coments I wanted to make in response to yours.
Regarding methodological naturalism, you write: Methodological naturalism is a lot more than some vague “preference” for natural causes. It follows from the assumption that there is an objective Universe out there which is ordered, contingent, consistent and comprehensible. If it were not so, not just science but any form of reliable knowledge about anything would be impossible. I would reply: science cannot explain what science presupposes. Science simply assumes that the universe is comprehensible, but as Einstein (who belonged to no religion)famously remarked: “The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible.” (”Physics and Reality” in Journal of the Franklin Institute (March 1936) as quoted in Einstein: A Biography (1954) by Antonina Vallentin, p. 24.)
It is true that science has nothing other than speculation to offer for the origins of the Universe but then neither does anyone else. Christianity has the creation story in Genesis but the number of other creation myths around the world must run into the hundreds. Why should we regard the Biblical account as anything more than just one amongst many? Besides, the inability of science to explain how the Universe began has no more bearing on theories of how it has worked since the Creation than does biology's lack of a theory of abiogenesis affect the robustness of the theory of evolution.
Why are there any laws of nature at all? The only rational answer is that the world is not just a collection of facts, as Wittgenstein envisaged in his “Tractatus”; if we believe in causal powers, then there are normative states of affairs too. (”Ought” is just as much a part of the world as “is.”) When an apple falls to the ground, that is what it is supposed to do. Were this not so, it would be unreasonable to expect the next apple to fall. In other words, we live in a world where things behave as they should behave. Laws of nature are not mere regularities; they are prescriptive, as well as descriptive. But in the end, the notion of things in nature behaving as they should, or conforming to norms, even though they lack minds, can only be made sense of by positing a Transcendent Intelligence that makes them do so (i.e. God). Thus from the mere existence of causal powers (which make the laws of nature normative and not just descriptive statements), we can reason our way to God
Here I think you are in danger of conflating, perhaps unwittingly, two different meanings of words such as "ought" and "prescriptive". In the case of the apple falling from a branch you can certainly say that, if there is a phenomenon called gravity then, if no other influence intervenes, when the stalk breaks the apple ought to fall to the ground. You can even say, although it is stretching the meaning of the word, that the theory of gravity prescribes what the apple should do in those circumstances. Those are different meanings, though, from a pastor telling his congregation the religious beliefs they ought to hold as good Christians or the moral codes the Bible prescribes for all Christians to follow. Scientific explanations are essentially descriptive and predictive. The describe what is observed and make predictions about the behavior of what we observe. Newton's theory of gravity describes an attractive force operating between any objects having mass and in concert with other laws or theories of motion can predict how planets will orbit a parent star. We say the theory tells us how the planets ought to move but the moral imperative that is also denoted by "ought" is not usually intended in this usage. Equivocation is a significant risk in these cases and we all have a duty to be as clear as possible in our usages to guard against it.
But if methodological naturalism is true, then your postulate that the cosmos is intelligible is just that: a postulate. It may be proven wrong tomorrow, and in the mean time, you are just whistling in the dark.
Exactly so. That is the risk we run. As a species we found ourselves, how we do not yet know, developing an awareness of the strange and mysterious Universe in which we live with nothing but our wits to help us understand it. We made up stories of how it might work because the better we understood it the better our chances of survival would be. Many if not most of those stories were wrong. How did we know? We compared them with each other and with what they were trying to explain and tested them in any way we could think of. In other words, we did science. Sure, it may all be wrong but we have found some stuff that seems to work pretty well so we may as well keep on using it until something better comes along.
You then mention the nineteenth-century scientist James Clerk Maxwell:
All of today’s commonplace technology, such as TV, radio, radar, that exploits electromagnetic phenomena exists in part because a 19th century Scottish nerd was curious about the nature and relationship of electricity and magnetism and eventually constructed a theory to explain it.
While noting that he was privately religious, you contend that he did not let his religion affect his science. Well, I beg to differ. I’ve just been having a look at a biography of Maxwell, entitled The Life of James Clerk Maxwell by Lewis Campbell and William Garnett. Here’s an excerpt from p. 176 (emphases mine – VJT):
Thank you for the excerpt from the biography - I may have to read that - and for the link to the essay. What they illustrate for me is that Maxwell was a deeply religious man who drew enormous strength and comfort from his faith in times of great personal trial, a faith which also supplied him with answers to the great questions of origins. But, as far as I know, there are no terms in his equations for "God's influence" or "Here there be miracles". He constructed a purely naturalistic account of the phenoma he was studying and I would argue the same is true of other great scientists or natural philosophers who also held strong religious beliefs.Seversky
February 4, 2010
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agentorange and acipenser ... CJYman, @273 “no critic has provided a useful definition of “natural” that can be used in the term “methodological naturalism” in such a way as to remove ID Theory from being considered as science” agentorange: "They did in Dover, & eferen ts & I mentioned (I just earlier In 272 did!) how what is considered as natural is in part not just what is measureable & testable, but also that which acts & works within the confines of known natural laws." So then everything that works and operates under natural (measureble and testable -- according to your definition) laws which are yet to be discovered, is not science? Science thus comes to a stop as discovery of the unknown is not allowed. Try again. Your definition is quite obviously a science stopper. agentorange: "This is precisely why to explain the flagella Behe says that natural laws + chance are insufficient to explain it, but rather a transcendent super being which can act above & beyond the know natural laws is required." No ... only a previous intelligence is required. Intelligence acts above law+chance continuously as is shown right here in our discussion. What's the problem? BTW: "above" = in a manner not able to be copied by ... CJYman: "except that intelligence is founded on patterns not defined by physics and chemistry." agentorange: "C’mon pal, come back off the deep end, the physical brain clearly works within the bounds of chemistry and physics." When did I ever state that the physical brain doesn't work (operate) within the bounds of chemistry and physics? I said "Intelligence is founded on patterns not *defined* by physics and chemistry." [asterix added for clarification] Strings of DNA, computer code, etc, are not defined by law+chance in the same why that law+chance do not define, and thus do not explain, our comments here on this thread. The organization of the letters is not due to a mathematical description of regularity caused by the physical properties of the letters themselves, nor is chance a good explanation since chance is a "lack of correlation" and the organization of the letters correlates with meaning/the English language. CJYman: "What does this have to do with violating law of physics and chemistry?" agentorange: "One could reason as others & I did, that the OP ed is of the opinon that the physical medium of the brain, or something physically comparable like a super CPU isn’t required for the mind, nor intelligence. Still waiting on that one…" OK, wait away, but I still want an answer as to why someone stated that my comments referred to "violating the laws of physics and chemistry?" agentorange: "Well, for one it’s to assume that 1) such violations of such laws are possible despite zero evidence of it." What violations? agentorange: " 2)That such violations occurs via a super being which isn’t material, nor testable or measurable by science itself at any level." 1. What violations? 2. Consciousness isn't material. In fact, are e and b fields material? Well, then again, how are you defining "material?" 3. ID Theory states that the effects of intelligence are measurable -- just as the effects of previous evolution, the big bang, or e and b fields are measurable -- so I'm not sure what you are addressing here. agentorange: "This would be how Behe explained the formation of the flagella in that no known natural law(s) nor w/ chance could provide a reasonable conclusion that it’s possible, thus a transcendent being is introduced." 1. I'm not Behe. 2. Nope. No known combination of law+chance can explain the falgellum. In fact, law+chance don't even define the flagellum. The type of pattern in which category the falgellum is contained is so far known to require intelligence in its contruction and intelligence has been observed constructing such patterns. So, if law+chance don't even defined that type of pattern, and intelligence is observed creating that type of pattern, where is one option (so far the best option) we should be looking as we begin our investigation? agentorange; "In this sense, it’s an assertion that non material beings are involved in the world & that science has to incorporate untestable notions of this sort." The whole "non-material" thing is not a requirement of ID Theory. StephenB and myself have already stated and explained this. However, I've also provided evidence that, depending on how one defines "material," there could very well exist "immaterial" things -- things which contain a quality that matter does not contain and which are fundamental alongside matter and energy. I'm thinking consciousness ala Penrose and Hameroff. More below in my respose to Acipenser. Acipenser: "Wuick point before I have to dash out….Conciousness can, and is, objectively measured everyday across this country and the world. The Glasgow coma scale is a reliable measure, and assessment of conciousness. To say that conciousness is subjective is incorrect." Excellent, then since it can be measured, Conscious Intelligence is natural (according to the defintion you've provided) and thus ID Theory is not disqualified from science on the basis that it does not satisfy the rules of MN. In fact, CSI is another way of measuring conscious intelligence. However, intelligence is still "supernatural" in the sense that law+chance are subservient to it as I've already explained over and over again. That is how StephenB has defined "natural" vs. "supernatural." Furthermore, there is still something that consciousness possess that matter does not -- subjectivity. I didn't check out your link, but I already believe that the strength of a conscious moment can be measured (E=h/t -- as per Penrose and Hameroff) and I also believe that its effects can be measured (CSI). Just because the effects of consciousness can be measured, does not mean that consciousness isn't a subjective experience. Heck, probabilities can be measured, but does that mean that there is such thing as an objective material "probability" floating around somewhere? Moreover, I am not sure how you can say that consciousness is not subjective, when it is the epitome of subjective experience. We are still at the point were we must recognize that there is a fundamental difference between matter and conscious intelligence. That difference can still be summed up as conscious/subjective/immaterial vs. matter/energy/objective/material. Again, if Penrose and Hameroff's theory turns out to be correct, then consciousness is on a level alongside matter and energy, fundamental to the structure of our universe, rather than "emerging" (I love that magic word) from matter and energy. This is consistent with what I have stated above. And, yes consciousness is real and it exists. If it did not, then our awareness of that which is merely objective would not exist, and thus science would not exist. We look *through* consciousness/subjectivity at that which is merely objective/material.CJYman
February 4, 2010
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Clive @327, “This is exactly what you’re doing in attempting to explain thoughts by virtue of movements of atoms.” C'mon Clive, that is just disingenuous. Just as I am not attempting to explain or describe the other higher level aggregated natural phenomena of a tornado storm at the smallest scale of the atom. Neither can be examined in such a way. You won’t find a storm in any single atom within a storm system nor will you find consciousness in any single atom within a brain. For once & for all, will anyone in this thread definitively explain how a non physically bound mind works & empirically how they know it works as they say it does?agentorange
February 4, 2010
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agentorange,
I don’t gather your point Clive. Not once have I attested anything to do with this dilemma of getting an ought from an is.
This is exactly what you're doing in attempting to explain thoughts by virtue of movements of atoms. "Oughts" are what make up our thoughts. Clive Hayden
February 4, 2010
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KF:
nd ET, pardon: you seem to have been taken in by the latter ons sided school of thought. The just linked is a useful balancing corrective.
Actually, there is nothing in that article that I was unfamiliar with and very little that I take exception to. I see no need to argue over what I think was wrong in that article and I really have no interest in a discussion of theodicy. I will merely thank you for your generally good advice to people who might be suffering from depression or know someone who is. That said, since you have engaged in ad hominem against me, I will close by pointing out two things. First, the challenge to support the assertion of intelligence operating independent of form remains unmet. Second, you have neither addressed why organizations with no apparent stake in the methodological naturalism debate (like for-profit corporations) see no need to abandon it, nor why organizations which doctrinally reject MN are not more productive (indeed, they are less so) then there so constrained counterparts.efren ts
February 4, 2010
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PPS: Take warning that sometimes death ideation is so strong that it can become obsessive and compulsive, sweeping up the whole focus of one's thought patterns with an almost overwhelming urge to end the pain through death. But, our feelings and perceptions are lying -- self-induced death is not the only way out! PPPS: The longer discussion (in full form here) has a very good examination of he Johnnie- one- noter, one- side- of- a- multi-sided- story- of- a- systemic disease perceptions on causes and cures of depression, both "spiritual" and physiological. (And ET, pardon: you seem to have been taken in by the latter ons sided school of thought. The just linked is a useful balancing corrective.)kairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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FG: I will just start up with the following observation from Aristotle, in Metaphysics 1011b:
(Metaphysics 1011b25): “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true
In short, reality is antecedent to perception, beliefs and coding/processing states whether in neural networks in brains or in PC ALU's and registers etc. (here are such things as inaccurate or incorrect programs, just to start . ..) And numbers, propositions and such like are [potentially] expressions of realities: five 25c coins put in a drawer, followed by removal of two ten of three leaves ZERO coins in said drawer, whether or not you are there to perceive or calculate it. When our mental state is truthful, it accurately reflects reality. But, as a rule reality -- as opposed to perceptions and beliefs etc -- does not depend on nor is it created by our particular mental state. One of those realities just happens to be zero. And that is just a "pre- beginning . . ." More anon, DV. GEM of TKI PS: ET, you have simply distracted attention from not only the original points at stake [it is plain that you have no constructive understanding of nature to offer, and that the evo mat through the back door, meth nat censoring imposition on the praxis of science has no proper warrant], but even from the corrective point that evo mat is in serious reductio ad absurdum trouble as a worldview [regardless of how many scientists may think it is a sound basis for doing science while they do not understand that there are other legitimate aspects of empirically based investigations that go beyond the mechanical necessity and stochastic aspects of our common world . . . ] or even that a depressive state is a whole person system state, in a context where the elements of the mind-body system interact, and where the individual relates and interacts with others. Again, some depressions -- and I know pretty directly whereof I speak -- are primarily chemically induced, others through negative thought patterns will allow recovery once chemical interventions reduce bodily symptoms secondary to the mental anguish [thinking yourself into sickness], and others are relieved through prayer and counselling, others by forgiveness, others yet require counsellor-guided working through damaged relationships and mutual forgiveness, others will require resolving one's overall spiritual state and relationship with God, and more. Competent pastoral care [cf a quick guide here, a summary note here and a more extensive discussion here] will consider all these options and more. (One bit of advice: major depression is not a self-cure operation, and is at risk of suicide due to the debilitating impact of emotional pain. If one has death ideation or "wish I were not born" ideation or begins to "hear" destructive voices/suggestions, or the like, it is time to get help; competent help.)kairosfocus
February 4, 2010
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Clive @ 315, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy I don’t gather your point Clive. Not once have I attested anything to do with this dilemma of getting an ought from an is. Rather my contention, like others here, plainly put is that the identify of oneself, consciousness, mind, soul, however you want to label it, they’re effectively the same thing & ultimately are the aggregate expression of the physical patterned brain on which it depends. No physical container in the required pattern, no self identify, no consciousness. This is the very reason why the examples of brain studies I mentioned earlier in which the physical external stimuli do have an impact on our conscious perception, thoughts, & the like, & like how in Terri Shivo’s case her PVS prevented her from even acknowledging others existing let alone herself. You don’t doubt the efficacy of neural inhibitors, or hallucinogenic drugs in which they alter ones perception of their conscious identity & their thoughts, do you? Why do you suppose they’re called antidepressant drugs? Because of all this empirical evidence & all its consistency in linking physical sections of the brain to very specific aspects we associate with consciousness, thoughts, how we can visually see the sections light up like Christmas tree as one if having certain modes of thought, one is left to think that if anything, any mode of thought, sub consciousness or not, is foundationally based in the physical medium form which it originated. For all practical purposes all the evidence indicates that the ability to conceive oneself (mind) is explicitly physically linked, & not just to matter, but more critically to that such a specific pattern of brain material that allows for the neural connections. In short, if you’re of the opinion that all such evidence is bogus, you have all your work ahead of you as not only do you explain them from a non physical brain connection, but further must provide positive supportive evidence for your claims that the physical brain isn’t foundational to consciousness, thoughts, self identify, loosely here called ‘mind’. This is why in comment # 3 I asked for modest description of how a non physically bound mind works, & how the person making this claim knows it works in the manner they claim. So far the one attempt involved statements not of science, nor of any empirical evidence at all but rather an appeal to another untestable non material spirit, basically amounting to a shell game. (see my comment #244) Such a shell game is not science, it shouldn’t be any more convincing to the one proposing it either as equally in absence of evidence another could assert another non testable non material shell to replace the other.agentorange
February 4, 2010
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How can we know? You can know :-)tribune7
February 4, 2010
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Clive at 316:
I need not prove any such thing, it is enough to prove that the intelligence that uses the body is not bound and subjected to the body in its intelligence.
I have to agree with Muramasa here. I am not having much luck teasing out what you are trying to say. To say that intelligence is not bound by, or subjected to, the body looks to be saying that intelligence can act independent of the body. Which is the request of mine you are taking exception to.efren ts
February 4, 2010
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Tribune @ 304, “what mainstream Christian religion opposes the use of psychiatric medicine?” Jevoha’s Witness would be one... Christian Scientists would be another...Mormons to some degree would be yet another... Well, with such a qualifier of ‘mainstream’, one is left to likely think only major branches of Christendom, Orthodox, Catholicism, & Protestantism, are what you consider ‘mainstream’. Fill me in on what you think mainstream means & doesn’t mean in this context. I don’t think this is too much to ask as even the later larger groups; Protestantism & Orthodox were once not mainstream at all but rather splinter cults. Where does the arbitrary line of a cult become mainstream, that needs to be define first, as there are plenty of smaller sect Christian & other religious groups which not only deplore science & its mechanistic methods of analysis, but further don’t allow its members to use fruits of such a method.agentorange
February 4, 2010
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tribune7:
God would still exist to contemplate it, you agree?
Not necessarily - would God still exist if there are no people to contemplate him? How can we know? fGfaded_Glory
February 4, 2010
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Clive @ 316: "I need not prove any such thing, it is enough to prove that the intelligence that uses the body is not bound and subjected to the body in its intelligence." I am really not sure what you are trying to say here. Is it your contention that human intelligence is an autonomous entity? When you say that it is "not bound" to the body, it makes it sound like human intelligence can wander about. Or is God the intelligence to which you refer? Also, I have tried to read through the thread, and I may have missed the part where someone proved your statement to be true. Where was this accomplished?Muramasa
February 4, 2010
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Materialism is the "common wisdom" of the intelligentsia. To smugly and complacently deny that a large number of phenomena established as real by many researchers exist. It could not possibly exist, so all the data is invalid regardless of quality. This conveniently relieves the materialist from any need to actually look at the data. This thinking assumes that the physical brain neuronal data processing literally produces or itself constitutes subjective states (consciousness including qualia), and ignores Chalmers' "hard problem" of understanding consciousness. If brain processing is consciousness, materialist neuroscience is right, there is no spiritual or immaterial basis to consciousness, and psi is impossible. However, examples of such phenomena having a mountain of evidence that they undoubtedly do exist are telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis and precognition. Other examples include many veridical NDEs, mediumistic communication with the dead (or at least where this is the best explanation, followed by "super psi"), at death appearances (ADAs), and evidence best explainable through reincarnation. Look at the data before scoffing at psi and the more extreme phenomena. The physical brain is certainly computer-like in many ways, subject to innumerable faults and damages, and intimately involved with the expression of consciousness and personality through thought, memory and emotion. But experimental evidence and many veridical experiences point clearly to it being ultimately controlled by an entity that is partly outside the body or interpenetrates the body. These areas constitute an entire dimension of data including innumerable human experiences that is conveniently dismissed in the common materialist belief system.magnan
February 4, 2010
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efen ts,
A question which has not been answered yet. Can you prove that human intelligence can operate independently of the body it is associated with.
I need not prove any such thing, it is enough to prove that the intelligence that uses the body is not subjected to the body in its intelligence.Clive Hayden
February 4, 2010
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agentorange,
I hope this statement helps Clive in how the aught from is dilemma.
Yo mean "ought"? This page might help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacyClive Hayden
February 4, 2010
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Are you suggesting ‘zero’ would exist if there were no people to contemplate it? God would still exist to contemplate it, you agree?tribune7
February 4, 2010
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fG @ 295, “it is unwarranted to claim that such processes exist without something physical that actually does the processing” Anyone objecting to this needs to explain how such a non physically bound intelligence/mind can even operate, let alone operate according to the ways they insist it does. And no shell games, let’s stick with what empirical evidence & reason (science) can conclude.agentorange
February 4, 2010
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Vjtorely, @ 290 “the Thomistic hylomorphic account, the soul is not an immaterial thing that pushes the body round” I want to first thank you for being thorough in your response & in addressing the question head on regarding the mind, immaterial or not, & its physical connection & what you make of it. I don’t think at this moment it’s reasonable that any of us have any sort of absolute knowledge in this arena & was hoping that with some genuine dialog regarding known empirical studies & correlation between chemical reactions in the brain & thoughts that this could be flushed out. This quality is preferable to those who act like Bill Clinton in questioning more self evident definitions & terms in order to avoid trying to answer the critical questions. Further when asked to substantiate their claims of how an non material bound mind works, it becomes a series of shell games in which they assert as if were fact that some *other* non-material spirit helps to direct both the non material bound mind/consciousness. This isn’t science based on any empirical level of facts or knowledge; this is magical hand waving that the Wizard of Oz would be proud of. Ah, yes, well perhaps someone here who contends that the mind & intelligence isn’t bound to physical matter & is thus immaterial will take this opportunity to show you otherwise. “The agent’s selection may indeed reflect his/her character, values and desires – but then again, it may not. We can and do act out of character, and we sometimes act irrationally. Our free will is not bound to act according to reason, and sometimes we act contrary to it (akrasia, or weakness of will, being a case in point” I hope this statement helps Clive in how the aught from is dilemma.agentorange
February 4, 2010
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Kairosfocus:
Is zero [0] a process or an entity? 1? 2? 3? . . .
zero is a concept in the minds of men, therefore it is a process of the brain. Are you suggesting 'zero' would exist if there were no people to contemplate it? Same for the other numbers.
Is the proposition: “Socrates is a Man” an entity or a process?
Again, this is a statement, a thought, therefore a process in your brain (and now one in mine, too)
If the former, what is its mass, size and location? If the latter, what is undergoing the process, and what is the process specifically? On what evidence?
Your and my brains, and the readers of this, are undergoing this process, and the process is the brain activity we normally call 'thinking'. Evidence for thinking can be seen all around you, if you take the trouble to look. The grounds for claiming that a mind is what a brain does have been amply presented already here by several others, I don't need to go over that again. Same for all your other questions - they are thoughts, processes of our brains. Are you suggesting all of these statements have some kind of independent existence outside our brains? I would find that incomprehensibly bizarre. Where, pray, would such statements exist? In what form, shape or kind?
Given that we have at least arguable reason to consider the possibility that he observed cosmos is the product of an extra-cosmic intelligence [as already discussed in this thread and elsewhere] is it fair to say that: Without brain molecules there won’t be any minds, nor intelligence. That is in fact the conclusion where all our available evidence actually leads to? And more But all of this is largely besides the main focus of this thread: it is plain that the imposition of methodological naturalism is only of ideological use, not genuine scientific use.
A lot of things are possible. It is possible we conceive (brain process) of many things that have no actual existence outside the process of thinking them. Dreams spring to mind (pun intended), a nice example of concepts and thoughts that are quite clearly merely brain processes yet can sometimes deceive us in thinking there is some reality there. Or do you think our dreams too have an independent existence somewhere, somehow, outside our brains? Now, science is the business of weeding through all the 'possibles' and casting aside those possibilities that can be shown to be at odds with empirical reality. As it so happens, there appear to be limits to this business: some possibilities can neither be proven nor disproven against what we humans can experience of reality. 'Extra-cosmic intelligence' is one such. Present it to science, science will shrug, and move on to consider other possibilities that it can actually do something with, given its tools and techniques. This behaviour of science is not imposed on it - it simply has no choice in the matter. fGfaded_Glory
February 4, 2010
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StephenB, @ 286 “says that intelligence can be material or non-material, which it can. So, it couldn’t possibly conflict with anything either way” Really? Please StephenB, don’t hold back now, show us all wrong and demonstrate how intelligence comes from non material! Show us a single non material being, non material animal, what have you, which has intelligence. “Mind is a more specific kind of intelligence, being both non-natural and immaterial” Don’t stop there StephenB, you have to go further and explain your earlier stance that some non material ‘spirit’ thing for which you haven’t defined or explained you assert works along with the non material mind in which neither are an extension of the physical brain.agentorange
February 4, 2010
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Vjtorley @289, Please see again my latest reply to StephenB. If God’s causal power is incomprehensible, how would taking it into account add to our understanding of His creation?Adel DiBagno
February 4, 2010
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Haste makes waste. Here, reformatted, is the middle section of my previous post to vjtorley:
I therefore take it that you would argue that God is nota natural cause, but a supernatural one, and that methodological naturalism doesn’t study God. This would fit in with your earlier comment in #32
Yes, yes! See my reply above to StephenB (who does not seem to understand me as well as you do.)Adel DiBagno
February 4, 2010
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vjtorley @288:
If your view of scientific understanding is a phenomenological one, then does that mean you hold the same view of the theory of evolution? Please note that I’m using the word “evolution” here to mean the hypothesis that all living things diverged from a common ancestral stock as a result of natural processes which are still at work in the world today, especially – but not exclusively – through natural selection. Is the theory of evolution, for you, merely a useful hypothesis which explains the appearances (i.e. the variety we find in the natural world), without being true in an absolute sense? I’d be interested to hear your answer to this question.
Yes, I take all scientific explanations to be hypothetical and useful insofar as they explain the world we experience. Absolute empirical truth is something I can’t even imagine. But I’m confident (meaning I think that there is a very high probability) that tomorrow will bring another sunrise.
I therefore take it that you would argue that God is nota natural cause, but a supernatural one, and that methodological naturalism doesn’t study God. This would fit in with your earlier comment in #32</blockquote Yes, yes! See my reply above to StephenB (who does not seem to understand me as well as you do.)
I would however strongly disagree with the view that there is something procedurally illicit about using known scientific facts to reason one’s way to God’s existence – and so would St. Thomas.
I don’t believe that I expressed such a view, and I don’t hold it. Reason away. But don’t call it science, which is the study of God's creation. Theology is the proper study of God.
Adel DiBagno
February 4, 2010
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StephenB @281:
—Adel Dibagno: “I agree with Aquinas. In his view, God is the one and only primary cause, the Creator of the Universe and everything in it.” Thank you for trying, but that doesn’t even come close to working. If God is the definition of “natural cause,” which is the definition I asked for, and if methodological naturalism studies only natural causes, which is its rule, that would mean that Methodological naturalism studies God.
Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. God, the primary cause of nature, cannot be a natural cause. That would mean that nature caused itself. As I said, natural causes are secondary causes:
God’s created Universe is what we call nature. As Aquinas said, there is true causal power in nature, but it is secondary to God’s primary causal role in the whole scheme. Human beings are creatures and are therefore part of nature. Volcanoes are creatures and are therefore part of nature. Both have secondary causal power.
I mentioned God in my answer to you, because I wanted to emphasize that His causal power is of an entirely different category from the causal power of his creatures. Moreover, God’s causative power is incomprehensible, whereas secondary causes are comprehensible. If secondary causes were not comprehensible, we couldn’t have science. If God’s causative power were comprehensible, science could study Him.Adel DiBagno
February 4, 2010
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KF:
There are cases of depression that are linked to brain chemistry imbalances, and there are those that are induced by guilt over one’s own misbehaviour. There are those that are induced by having been the victim of physical, verbal or sexual abuse or misinformation. And more.
Indeed, and what then? Having invested much time researching and learning about the disease, I am quite confident in stating that the efficacious therapies were empirically studied and tested under the assumption that humans are a physical actor in a physical world.
Not to mention, a surprising number of not only physicians but scientists are card-carrying heists, so you are mistaken to infer that the scientists in question are invariably materialists.
Indeed, and yet there is no groundswell of cries to dispense with methodological naturalism, even by scientists in for-profit corporations who's only doctrinal dogma is that of Adam Smith. Science marches on. Further, where we do see organizations that openly reject MN, but two of which are mentioned above, we do not see the explosion of scientific knowledge that you would have us believe MN is holding back.
And on the behalf of greats like Newton [oh ghost of Newton, forgive me . . . ], I resent you inference to scientific laziness on the part of design thinkers, especially in a context where what is on the ground is PERSECUTION of such scientists.
My old college calculus book indicated that Newton was referring to Leibniz, but okay. That said, you will need to share with me your definition of design thinkers. Because, as I pointed out in comment 60, Stephen's definition of design thinking wasn't sufficiently differentiated from the thinking of any modern scientiest, theist or atheist.efren ts
February 4, 2010
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