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Moral Viewpoints Matter

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Those of us who argue that morality is grounded in a transcendent, objective standard often use extreme cases to demonstrate our point. We argue, for example, that in no conceivable universe would torturing an infant for personal pleasure be considered anything other than an unmitigated evil. Since there is at least one self-evidently moral truth that transcends all places, times, circumstances and contexts, the objectivity of morality is demonstrated.

The other day frequent commenter Learned Hand stated that “[Subjectiviests are] very much like [objectivists], in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.”

The objectivist response to LH is two-fold. On the one hand, we say that it is entirely obvious and unsurprising that subjectivists feel powerfully about their moral beliefs. After all, subjectivists’ moral beliefs are grounded in the objective reality of a transcendent moral standard just like everyone else’s (even though subjectivists deny that this is so). Far from asserting that subjectivists are amoral monsters, objectivists absolutely insist that any given subjectivist can be as sensitive (or even perhaps in some instances more sensitive) to the demands of the objective moral law as an objectivists. Subjectivists, like everyone else, know that (and always behave as if) torturing an infant for personal pleasure is objectively wrong. Which, of course, is why the rest of LH’s rant in the linked comment is not only mean spirited, it is also blithering nonsense.

On the other hand, objectivists also argue that the subjectivist argument that they feel their morality just as powerfully as objectivists is patently false given their own premises. One group of people believe that morals are based on an objective, transcendent moral standard binding on all people at all times; another group of people take Will Provine seriously when he says no ultimate foundation for ethics exists. Certainly the responses of individuals within the group will vary. But can there be any doubt that people who believe morality is based on something real will, at the margin, feel more strongly about their moral commitments than people who believe their moral commitments are, ultimately, based on nothing at all? Can you imagine a moral objectivist insisting that we should not “judge” Aztec human sacrifice by our current cultural standards, as I once saw a curator of a museum here in Denver do?

Of course, the key to this analysis is the phrase “at the margin.” All decisions are made at the margin, and that is why when it comes down to the actual practical differences in the behavior of subjectivists and objectivists, examples from the poles are unhelpful, because the behavior of both groups will be practically identical.  But is there really a difference in behavior at the margin? As I argued above, simple logic dictates that we should expect a difference in behavior at the margin. But do we have any concrete examples? I believe we do. It is called American jurisprudence.

As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of law began with the publication in 1897 of The Path of the Law by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this groundbreaking article Holmes almost singlehandedly founded the school of “legal realism,” which gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal nihilism,” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judge’s rulings. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? Because, as Phillip Johnson has explained, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism,” and Holmes’ great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of naturalism. Truly Holmes’ ideas could be called “jurisprudential naturalism.” Thus began the modern era of what has come to be known as “judicial activism.”

What does all of this have to do with “morality at the margin”? The answer lies in the structure and history of the American Constitution. In the Federalist 79 Hamilton argued that judges would be restrained from judicial activism by their fear of impeachment:

The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They [federal judges] are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other.

For structural reasons (impeach requires a supermajority in the Senate), political reasons (super majorities necessary for impeachment are impossible if even a significant minority of the Senate agrees with the results of the judicial activism), and historical reasons (Jefferson’s failed use of the impeachment process to check the judiciary weighed very heavily against subsequent attempts), Hamilton turned out to be wrong.

If judges cannot be checked effectively by fear of impeachment when they abuse their office, what does check their power? Just this: Judges take an oath of office to uphold the constitution, and the only practical check on their power is individual judge’s moral commitment to that oath. And it is here that the difference between subjectivist and objectivist commitments to morality have plain effects at the margin.

Every time a judge makes a ruling (especially in the area of constitutional law), there is a temptation. Suppose a judge has a powerfully felt commitment to a particular policy (it does not matter what the policy preference is). Suppose further that the text, structure and history of the constitution provides no warrant for elevating that policy preference to the status of constitutional imperative. If there is no effective political check on his power, what is to stop the judge from nevertheless falsely ruling that the constitution does indeed elevate his policy preference to constitutional imperative? Again, nothing but his moral commitment to his oath. This is especially true for Supreme Court judges whose rulings are not subject to further review.

Which group of judges has the stronger moral commitment?  Based on a host of data, it is certainly the case that political liberals are far more likely to be areligious. Further, areligious people are far more likely than religious people to be moral subjectivists. Therefore, we can conclude that liberal judges are more likely to be moral subjectivists. Is it any wonder then that the vast majority of cases of judicial activism come down on the side most amenable to political liberals? Indeed, while I will be the first to admit that there have been a few rare cases of conservative activism, judicial activism is overwhelming seen as a phenomenon of the left. Conservative judges view their project as essentially a moral project. Liberal judges see their project as, in Justice White’s famous phrase, the raw exercise of power. It cannot be reasonably disputed that liberal judges (whom we can conclude have a largely subjectivist moral viewpoint) do not have as strong a moral commitment to their oath. And that, Learned Hand, is why it matters.

Comments
RDfish:
3) There is no objective standard for beauty; likewise, neither is there an objective standard for morality.
These are objective facts.Mung
January 30, 2015
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RDFish:
2) Beauty exists in our own heads rather than objectively in the world, but there are objective features(symmetry, proportion, etc) that influence our perception of beauty; likewise, morality also exists in our own heads rather than objectively in the world, but there are objective features (pain, inequality, etc) that influence our perception of morality.
These are objective facts.Mung
January 30, 2015
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RDFish:
1) We do not voluntarily choose what we see to be beautiful; likewise, neither do we voluntary choose what we consider to be moral.
These are objective facts.Mung
January 30, 2015
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF: I am utterly certain that I’m subjectively right – just as I am completely certain that Angelina Jolie is a beautiful woman. PHINEHAS: No. Not “just as.” Quite the opposite of “just as.” For you would never compel others to share your perception on Angelina Jolie’s beauty.
No, Phinehas, our perception of beauty is neither exactly the same nor the opposite of our perception of morality. Here are some things that are the same: 1) We do not voluntarily choose what we see to be beautiful; likewise, neither do we voluntary choose what we consider to be moral. 2) Beauty exists in our own heads rather than objectively in the world, but there are objective features(symmetry, proportion, etc) that influence our perception of beauty; likewise, morality also exists in our own heads rather than objectively in the world, but there are objective features (pain, inequality, etc) that influence our perception of morality. 3) There is no objective standard for beauty; likewise, neither is there an objective standard for morality. Here are a couple of differences between the two: i) Beauty is sometimes more concrete - more physical and less abstract - than morality (although sometimes very abstract things, such as mathematical equations or philosophical ideas, are experienced as beautiful by some people) ii) Beauty and morality affect us emotionally in extremely different ways. Beauty sometimes makes us happy, sometimes makes us weep; we actively seek it out in art, music, nature, other people, animals, etc. Morality doesn't apply to all situations, but when we judge something to be immoral we can be roused to act with extreme intensity and devotion, even at great personal cost. (Sexual attractiveness is more like this than beauty is, I suppose - people are also motivated by sexual attraction to act with great intensity and take huge risks).
So, when it comes to your behavior, it is very obvious that some of your “subjectivity” is of a very different nature than the rest.
Yes, very true.
And no matter how you flail about trying to explain that difference away,...
Um, what? I just agreed with this, and even gave some examples!
...it is exceedingly apparent that a key distinction is that you act exactly as though this special kind of “subjectivity” is objectively true, even while you claim that it is not.
Um, what? Finding something immoral is no more objective than finding something beautiful. There is no objective standard for beauty, sexual attractiveness, or morality (or if there is, we have no objective way of discerning it).
What is it that we are perceiving? Something that exists and is real and true? Or an illusion?
Again, it is neither of these - see (2) above. Like beauty, morality is neither an illusion nor something that exists objectively outside of the beholder.
If we act in a manner consistent with the notion that we are perceiving something that exists and is real and is true, then why claim that it is an illusion? To do so is logically inconsistent.
Like beauty, morality is neither objectively real nor an illusion. It is a subjective perception of real objective things (actions, objects, etc) in the world. I've been accused of logical inconsistency here quite consistently. Nothing I've said here is logically inconsistent, however. [deleted - I just saw another post by WJM and will respond on that thread ] Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 30, 2015
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RDF:
Our moral sense is like a perception, not like a mere preference or desire.
What is it that we are perceiving? Something that exists and is real and true? Or an illusion? If we act in a manner consistent with the notion that we are perceiving something that exists and is real and is true, then why claim that it is an illusion? To do so is logically inconsistent.Phinehas
January 29, 2015
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RDF:
Mike: The bottom line is, it must be true that you really really think you are in the right when you compel others to do your moral will against their moral will. There is no other basis that makes sense for an otherwise rational person.
I am utterly certain that I’m subjectively right – just as I am completely certain that Angelina Jolie is a beautiful woman.
No. Not "just as." Quite the opposite of "just as." For you would never compel others to share your perception on Angelina Jolie's beauty. Such an idea is ludicrous. So, when it comes to your behavior, it is very obvious that some of your "subjectivity" is of a very different nature than the rest. And no matter how you flail about trying to explain that difference away, it is exceedingly apparent that a key distinction is that you act exactly as though this special kind of "subjectivity" is objectively true, even while you claim that it is not.Phinehas
January 29, 2015
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MIKE:
Mike: But you are evading the root issue. Why do you choose thusly? On what moral basis do you “choose to put the interests of [yourself] and others ahead of those with moral sentiments that conflict with [yours]?
There are no moral principles which can be shown to be objectively true. We thus have only our subjective moral sense. Nobody - not you, not WJM, and not me - can objectively justify our moral interventions. We do it because we are compelled to, in much the same way we are compelled to do all sorts of other things (survive, procreate, seek adventure, and so on). There are no objectively true justifications available to anyone. The difference is that the objectivist pretends that there are, while the subjectivist acknowledges that there are none.
Mere preference and desire?
Our moral sense is like a perception, not like a mere preference or desire. But yes, your morality is based on your subjective moral sense, just like mine is, and neither of us can change that because there is no objectively knowable alternative.
The bottom line is, it must be true that you really really think you are in the right when you compel others to do your moral will against their moral will. There is no other basis that makes sense for an otherwise rational person.
I am utterly certain that I'm subjectively right - just as I am completely certain that Angelina Jolie is a beautiful woman. You may disagree, however, and find her ugly, and there is no objective method to determine which of us would be correct. And if I told you that I believe in a supernatural beauty judge who has settled the matter in my favor, that would not convince you, because you would have no objective way to ascertain that I really did know this supernatural beauty judge. You would instead tell me that it was merely my subjective choice to believe in this supposedly transcendent beauty judge, so my judgement was no more objective than yours is. Do you understand? This is what I'm saying. Of course there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, believing that this god delivers transcendent moral imperatives, and trying to act in accord with them. And of course there is much right with that! Still and yet, this does not make one's morality objectively true, because the choices to believe in a god, and this particular god, with this particular morality - these are all just as subjective as the subjective moral imperatives that each of us acts upon. ALL: I will be unavailable until late Friday night. I look forward to your replies! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 29, 2015
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Me: As a subjectivist, on what basis do you presume to enforce your morality on others when they disagree with you? RDFish: Because I choose to put the interests of myself and others ahead of those with moral sentiments that conflict with mine – just like you do.
But you are evading the root issue. Why do you choose thusly? On what moral basis do you "choose to put the interests of [yourself] and others ahead of those with moral sentiments that conflict with [yours]?" Mere preference and desire? Again, regardless of what you say, you act as if your morality is imperative, and take it from a private subjective place and put it into an objective arena when you involve others, especially against their will. You act like an objectivist. You act as if you really really believe you are right. Else on what basis are you choosing and acting? Mere preference and desire? Why not just ignore the preference and kill the desire? The bottom line is, it must be true that you really really think you are in the right when you compel others to do your moral will against their moral will. There is no other basis that makes sense for an otherwise rational person.mike1962
January 29, 2015
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RDFish: Mike1962 argued that anything we can imagine must be real, which is clearly not the case.
I never said that or even implied it. What I showed (by my reply question) is that your talking onion retort is vacuous.mike1962
January 29, 2015
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Hi William J Murray,
We have no way of ascertaining an objectively true statement about anything (Plato’s Cave). All any of us can do wrt making true statements about any phenomena considered to be objective is honestly giving it our best effort using our sensory capacity and logic. I know, as all sane people do, that it is immoral to gratuitously torture children. I hold this to be as true a statement as any statement held to be true about any presumed objective commodity.
If you'd like to descend further into epistemology and bring into doubt our ability to ascertain realism itself, that's fine, but it will end our discussion here. So without entering those muddy waters, let us agree that we both do make distinctions between the objective and subjective all the time, and simply illustrate with examples: Objective (independent of mind): light wavelengths, solid objects, laws of thermodynamics, laws of math... Subjective (dependent upon mind): color, beauty, taste, pleasure... Let us agree that one can be mistaken about the existence, correctness, or truth of the former items, but not of the latter items. Agreed? Now, you've made clear repeatedly that you are not arguing that morality is known to be a member of the first list (i.e. that it is objective). Rather, you are saying that we should merely assume, for the sake of logical consistency, that it belongs there:
WJM @172: I don’t attempt to justify objective morality as being true because I do not claim it is true. I’m claiming that it is the only premise that yields a logically consistent moral system that is compatible with how we actually behave.
Is that still your position? Because you just now said that (at least some) moral statements are "as objective as any presumed objective commodity", so you seem to be contradicting yourself. Which is it, then? Do you, or do you not, claim that moral facts are as objective as any other presumed objective fact? If you have changed your mind about this, we have a different debate - but for now I'll assume you still hold to what you said @172 (contra other objectivists here, like Phinehas). My point in that case is that if you cannot know that morality is objective, then you cannot know whether or not you are mistaken. I believe your rejoinder will be that one can be mistaken even if it is impossible to know whether or not a mistake is even possible. That's fine - if you'd like, I will grant you that it is theoretically possible for one to be mistaken vis-a-vis an objective morality that may or may not exist and is objectively unknowable.
I’ve never made the argument that because I prefer moral objectivism, it is therefore more logical. What a stupid argument that would be.
Yes, it's not a very good argument. You believe that in order to justify imposing your will over those who violate your moral code, you need to assume (claim?) that your moral code is objectively true. I disagree, because I don't think there is an objective justification for imposing one's morals on other people at all. I assumed that you would prefer to objectively justify your imposing of your own morals on others, rather than act this way without objective justification. This would then (to your way of thinking) require you to assume objectivism.
I prefer morality to be entirely subjective and I prefer not to have any moral obligations whatsoever so I can do whatever I wish without consideration of any necessary consequences.
Interesting!!! I feel exactly the opposite! I wish we all knew clearly and exactly what was right in every situation. Surely there would still be people who would violate this moral code, but there may not be so many wars between two peoples who both thought they were following objectively true moral codes.
Unfortunately for me, however, I cannot live as I would prefer to live. I know, because I made a several year effort to do just that.
Again, I couldn't disagree more strongly! I do live just as I prefer to live. I wonder if our different attitudes about what life we prefer to live has something to do with our different views regarding the nature of morality? You feel constrained by your morality - that it keeps you from doing things you want to do. I feel the opposite - that acting according to my moral sentiments makes me happy, and I wouldn't want to live any other way.
This demonstrates that you don’t comprehend the nature of the argument, or perhaps even what it means to make a logical argument. What do you even mean when you claim you’ve made no “illogical asssertions”…? The logic or illogic of your position would be demonstrated by the conclusions one necessarily infers from a premise, and whether or not those inferences and conclusions match up to how you actually behave. Assertions are not a logical argument.
Once again I will explain this to you: You believe that subjectivists are logically inconsistent because they act in a way that is inconsistent with subjectivism. As you say:
WJM @153: The argument I and some others here make is not that objective morality is superior in practice, but rather is superior with regards to its logical consistency, both internally and in relationship to how we actually behave in the world (as if we have moral rights and obligations that are objectively valid – meaning, valid whether others agree or not).
I am arguing (over and over again) that there is no logical inconsistency involved when a subjectivist imposes their moral sense on others. There is no objective justification for a subjectivist imposing their morals on others, just as there is no objective justification for an objectivist imposing their morals on others. And the fact that you subjectively choose to assume that your morality is objective doesn't change a thing.
During this debate you attempted to justify moral interventions first by saying it was justified by a “strong feeling”.
Well no, William, I never said this at all. We aren't going to get anywhere if you simply make up strawmen arguments and shoot them down. What you may be referring to is my comment to Phinehas @140:
I don’t care what flavor ice cream other people eat. I do, however, care very much that people not act immorally. I do not choose to care – it is not a voluntary choice. I cannot choose not to care. Could you simply choose not to care about people doing terrible things to other people? Of course you couldn’t. How can you not understand this?
Do you see any reference to justifying moral interventions there? Of course not. Phinehas asked me why I would enforce my morals over others, but not my ice cream preference. I told him why.
When challenged if a “strong feeling” about vanilla ice cream would morally justify forcing others to eat vanilla, you said no, invalidating your own claim that strong feelings = moral right.
You're descending into complete nonsense. Of course I would never say that "strong feelings = moral right". You are making all of this up, and wasting our time.
You changed your tack to justifying moral intervention by comparing “moral sense” to the perception of color – something that is not voluntary.
You seem intent to make it seem as though I have changed my beliefs or my arguments or my "tack" or "backtracked", even though I haven't once done so. You fail to actually quote what I say and provide a reference (the way I do), because you making all of this up. It's annoying. I am endorsing here a type of subjectivism called moral non-cognitivism (in other debates here regarding ID, my position is essentially theological non-cognitivism). I have adhered to these theories for many years, and I am certainly not vacillating on my beliefs in this debate. Here is what I actually did say:
RDF @164: Let me point this out, although it is not directly germane to our debate: You insist on calling our moral sense a preference, or say it is “because I feel like it” – something that is like a whim, a transient mood....
So I didn't change my tack when I explained to you that moral sense was perceptual, not volitional - I simply made the point, and told you explicitly that it was not germane to our debate! Please pay attention!
But, what have you done here, other than backtrack into a subjective commodity that offers you no justification whatsoever for intervening into the affairs of others?
Another false accusation of backtracking. Hmmm. In my previous post to you I have explained exactly why I offered the example of beauty. It was not because I was backtracking, but rather because you didn't understand color perception.
Would you stop a man from buying a painting considers beautiful simply because you do not, and you feel very strongly that you do not? Would you justify taking a sculptor’s tools and materials away from him because you disagreed with his idea of beauty? Would you correct a man at a restaurant if he called his wife beautiful and you felt she was not?
These are ridiculous questions. As I've already explained, I am not motivated to do any such thing of course. And as I've already explained, I am highly motivated to act in accordance with my moral sense, even at significant personal cost. Perhaps you mistakenly think that "motivation" is the same thing as "objective justification"? Is that the problem?
The question isn’t what you believe, but whether or not you can offer a principled justification for moral intervention that is not itself immoral.
And yet again: You cannot offer a principled justification for moral intervention, and neither can I. Assuming that your morality is objective doesn't help.
If you say you have the right to intervene “because I feel like it” sense, your morality is immoral.
I have never said any such thing - you made that up completely and pretended that I said it.
If you say you have the right to intervene “because I perceive an act to be wrong”, you have offered two different variations on that theme; the perception of beauty, and the perception of color.
You cannot objectively justify a right to impose your morals on others, and neither can I. Assuming that your morality is objective doesn't help. And beauty and color have nothing to do with this central point; rather, they are illustrations of the sort of perception that characterizes our moral sense.
If your friend tells you he wants to buy a beautiful painting and, accompanying him to the gallery he picks up a painting you do not consider beautiful and exclaims “oh, this painting is utterly breathtaking, I must have it!”, do you feel comfortable intervening in his purchase and telling him that he is wrong about the beauty of the painting, and refuse to let him buy it?
I've already explained why these are ridiculous questions.
The color version refers to an objectively existent and quantifiable commodity (even though it has not always been so);
You are completely wrong about color perception, as I've shown in my previous post to you.
...the beauty version offers no justification for moral interventions that is not itself immoral.
For the Nth time, beauty has nothing to do with justification for moral intervention. You have no objective justification for moral intervention and neither do I. We both cite our subjective moral sense, and our undeniable compulsion to act on it, and so we do. In our speeches we justify our acts by appealing to obvious moral statements: We cannot and will not let people torture puppies! Let us go to war against these dastardly villians who torture puppies!!! But underneath all this is not some objective code handed down from on high - it is all subjective moral sense. And so we cannot provide an objective justification for our moral interventions - but we both (like all normal people) perceive our interventions to be perfectly moral.
This is why your logic fails, RDFish. You are flipping around from one stated principle to another, from one comparison to another, because the ones that offer a sound justification for moral intervention refer to objective commodities, and the ones you abandon because they are themselves immoral refer to internal, subjective commodities.
I am really, really tired of you accusing me of flipping around and changing my arguments. Not one single time in this entire debate have I done any such thing, and you have provided exactly ZERO quotes to support your silly accusations.
Once again: how does moral subjectivism justify moral interventions...
Once again: Objectivists cannot objectively justify their moral interventions, and neither can subjectivists. I can keep this up as long you keep repeating your error. But I'd rather not. Please, please, please read what I say and don't just keep repeating the same misunderstanding.
...if morality is subjective in nature, in the “beauty” or “personal feelings” sense?
For the Nth+1 time: Beauty and personal feelings have nothing to do with justifying moral interventions.
That is the logical rebuttal you must make if you wish to meet my argument square on, and have so far failed in doing so.
I'm afraid you are desperately confused at this point. My rebuttal to your argument is this: 1) I believe we agree that there is no objective way to determine the existence of an objectively true moral code. 2) Therefore one cannot justify one's own morality, or enforcing one's own morality on others, on the basis of adherence to an objective moral code. 3) Simply assuming that an objectively true moral code exists doesn't help, because making that assumption is nothing but a subjective choice, and so is the particular moral code one happens to assume is the one that is objectively true. There is nothing objective about it.
What subjectivist-consistent principle justifies moral interventions?
There is no principle that can objectively justify moral interventions, and no amount of assuming with change that.
Mike made no claim that objectivists know morality is objective in nature. One can act as if a thing is true, and believe that it is true, even while admitting they do not know it is true. You don’t have to know the sun will come up in the morning (in fact, unless you can see the future, you cannot know it) to both reasonably believe and and reasonably act as if it will.
I now see that you really do not read my posts at all. Sigh. I already explained to you
RDF @164: This illustrates the problem with your position quite well: We reasonably assume the sun will rise based on experience. The reliable observation of sunrise allows us to justify our expectation that it will continue to rise. In contrast, we have no prior experience of somehow discovering an objective moral code, and therefore we have no justification for assuming that one particular moral code or another is true.
I was hoping we could have a productive debate. But if all you do is make up strawman arguments, falsely accuse me of changing my arguments, and simply ignore my refutations and repeat yourself as though I've never said anything, then there is really no point at all.
MIKE: As a subjectivist, on what basis do you presume to enforce your morality on others when they disagree with you? RDF: Because I choose to put the interests of myself and others ahead of those with moral sentiments that conflict with mine – just like you do. WJM: So, your answer is that your basis for presuming to intervene in the affairs of others is that you put your interests ahead of theirs because theirs conflict with your own?
For the Nth+2 time, that is the subjective basis, or motivation, for your moral interventions - just like they are for mine. They do not constitute an objective moral justification.
Putting your own interests ahead of others and being willing to force your interests on them for no principled reason other than that theirs conflict with your own is pretty much the antithesis of moral behavior. It’s not just immoral, it’s monstrous.
Ah, it's all fallen apart for you now. I've shown why you are wrong about objectivism, so you can't help but try to paint me as a monster. Hmmm. You have no principled reason for forcing your interests on others, yet you do it. Why don't you think you are a monster, William? You pretend that all you have to do is simply assume that your morality is objective, and that will magically give you moral authority over others? That's the height of self-deluded arrogance! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
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Hi William J Murray, Regarding color:
RDFish, if you have a rebuttal concerning color perception, make your case. Asserting that I don’t understand the nature of color perception and then offering a link with no quotes or explanation as to how you think that link makes a difference in our argument is not sufficient; it may not be a bluff, but that is what it appears to be.
I asserted in our discussion that color perception depended upon much more than wavelengths of light. I explained that there was a complex and incomplete mapping between properties that we consider objective (such as wavelength or chromatic opposition) and our subjective experience, which includes other factors we consider subjective (such as expectations and past experience with colored objects). I then suggested we talk about beauty rather than color, since I didn't want to get sidetracked into discussing the extremely complex issue of color perception when the topic here is moral theory. You replied by telling me your occupation, and that our subjective experience of color was indeed our interpretation of electromagnetic wavelengths, which can be precisely measured. You proceeded to accuse me of "bluffing" on this point, and that I was attempting to cover for some mistake I had made by offering beauty as a simpler example. I replied to your accusation by providing an academic citation for a paper whose abstract read: "To create subjective experience, our brain must translate physical stimulus input by incorporating prior knowledge and expectations. For example, we perceive color and not wavelength information, and this in part depends on our past experience with colored objects ( Hansen et al. 2006; Mitterer and de Ruiter 2008)." This clearly and explicitly refutes your claim that colors are wavelengths that can be measured objectively by an instrument, and clearly and explicitly supports my assertions that many other factors besides wavelength are involved - including clearly subjective factors such as prior experience and expectations. I thought we'd be done with it - and yet you failed to see the relevance of this article (!), and decided to pursue the discussion on this topic. Fine. Here is a simple, non-technical article that explains why color is subjective. From that article:
Probably the hardest concept to fully grasp about color is that color is all in your head. Literally. ... And–this is the hard part–color is not a property of the thing that’s causing the sensation. In other words, grass is not green and the sky is not blue. Rather, they have physical properties that make you perceive green and blue, but even that’s true only in some circumstances.
And this doesn't begin to touch on the complexity (and controversies!) that abound vis-a-vis color perception. There is a huge literature across multiple disciplines (physiology, psychology/cognitive science, and philosophy) that discusses the surprising, complex, and thoroughly subjective nature of color perception.
One can be objectively wrong about the color of an object
Colors are not merely objective properties of objects, and some theorists hold that color isn't a property of objects at all. Despite your insistence, colors are not wavelengths, nor are they our subjective interpretations of wavelengths. Colors are subjective sensations inside our heads, and are affected by many other things besides wavelengths. Some of these things are external to the subject, and some of these things (such as our expectations and memories) are not. One cannot be wrong about what color one is experiencing any more that one can be wrong about what level of enjoyment one is experiencing, or how much beauty one finds in a painting. The fact that in your profession you can simply equate or correlate wavelengths to colors merely shows that your job does not require a sophisticated understanding of the psychology, physiology, or philosophy of color perception. So with regard to this issue, you are wrong on every single count - both about color perception and about my actions and motivations in this discussion. Let's move on. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 29, 2015
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RDFish, if you have a rebuttal concerning color perception, make your case. Asserting that I don't understand the nature of color perception and then offering a link with no quotes or explanation as to how you think that link makes a difference in our argument is not sufficient; it may not be a bluff, but that is what it appears to be. Please be advised: that there are device/neural and programming/psychological variations/discrepancies that affect color representation/perception doesn't change the fact that the term "red" refers to a definite, narrow e-m bandwidth which can be objectively measured (inasmuch as anything can be objectively measured). One can be objectively wrong about the color of an object; one cannot be wrong about the beauty one finds in a painting. The objective wrongness of a color justifies interventions where color is important; the subjective view that something is not beautiful does not justify intervention in the affairs of someone who hold the opposite view about that thing.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
RDF:Even if objective morality does somehow exist, nobody can objectively say what it might be. PH: I don’t think that you can even come close to supporting this assertion. RDF: It’s not my burden of proof, obviously… PH: Since it is your assertion, exactly who else do you think ought to bear the burden of proving it? RDF: Hahaha. The claim is yours: You say that you can justify a belief in objectively true morality.
Hahaha. Where do I say that? While you scan the thread frantically for a quote, let me point out that I've quoted your assertion above. Either you can support that assertion or you cannot. Evidently, you cannot.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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BTW, my statements about what we can and cannot "know" depend on how one defines "knowledge", and to what degree of certainty one crosses that threshold. We cannot be certain that morality refers to an objective commodity, but I consider it possible to make a case for sufficient warrant for the reasonable belief that morality refers to an objective commodity. I'm not going to make that argument because it doesn't interest me; however, the case I'm currently making could be used as part of that argument - that the logical necessity of the objectivist premise adds towards sufficient warrant to reasonably believe morality refers to an objective commodity.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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Hi WJM, I will respond to your post a bit later when I have the time to try and make your errors more clear. In the meanwhile, I would ask that you not accuse of me of "bluffing". Your vocation of graphic designer has obviously not required you to understand scientific research into color perception. A quick search came up with this, just as an example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25323417 I'm not being inconsistent, I'm not changing my argument, and I'm not bluffing about anything, WJM. I'm trying in good faith to explain to you why I think you are wrong. Please let's try to continue to debate pleasantly, and give each other the benefit of any doubt. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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RDFish
Of course we choose what we do, but we do not choose what we find to be ... moral.
What we do is based on what we find to be moral.Silver Asiatic
January 28, 2015
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RDFish:
To be mistaken, there must be an objectively correct answer that one’s answer can be compared to.
Now, you don't have to be able to compare it to an objectively correct answer for you to be wrong. It's wrong whether you can compare it or not, whether or not you ever find out it's wrong.
Since we have no way of ascertaining an objectively true moral answer, nor even if one exists, nobody can be said to “honestly” think that their moral judgements are objectively correct. All anyone can say is “This is what I subjectively perceive to be moral”. Hence, subjectivism.
We have no way of ascertaining an objectively true statement about anything (Plato's Cave). All any of us can do wrt making true statements about any phenomena considered to be objective is honestly giving it our best effort using our sensory capacity and logic. I know, as all sane people do, that it is immoral to gratuitously torture children. I hold this to be as true a statement as any statement held to be true about any presumed objective commodity. Could I be mistaken? Sure. I could also measure a board several times and still be mistaken about its length. My capacity to be correct or mistaken about an objective commodity doesn't rely on my capacity to discern its objectively true value. But, as I said, this isn't an argument about whether or not objective morality is true.
OK, I understand. (Other readers may wish to note that WJM’s objectivism differs from yours on this point!)
What argument they may be making about "objective morality" - such as, that it exists, or which version is "true" - may be different from the nature of my argument, but that doesn't mean that our concept of objective morality differs significantly.
I understand that is what you claim, and I counter that simply because you feel it would be preferable for us to have an objective moral standard does not justify assuming its existence.
I've never made the argument that because I prefer moral objectivism, it is therefore more logical. What a stupid argument that would be. I prefer morality to be entirely subjective and I prefer not to have any moral obligations whatsoever so I can do whatever I wish without consideration of any necessary consequences. Unfortunately for me, however, I cannot live as I would prefer to live. I know, because I made a several year effort to do just that.
You attempt to frame this as a matter of logical consistency, but that is not the case; as I’ve shown, the subjectivist makes no illogical or inconsistent assertions.
My argument is about the logical consistency; that is the case, whether I succeed or not. This demonstrates that you don't comprehend the nature of the argument, or perhaps even what it means to make a logical argument. What do you even mean when you claim you've made no "illogical asssertions"...? The logic or illogic of your position would be demonstrated by the conclusions one necessarily infers from a premise, and whether or not those inferences and conclusions match up to how you actually behave. Assertions are not a logical argument. During this debate you attempted to justify moral interventions first by saying it was justified by a "strong feeling". When challenged if a "strong feeling" about vanilla ice cream would morally justify forcing others to eat vanilla, you said no, invalidating your own claim that strong feelings = moral right. I pointed out that logically, if strong feeling = moral right, then forcing others to eat vanilla would be morally right if you felt strongly about it. Of course you disagreed, and then attempted to find some other justification, or means of explaining the moral subjectivist perspective better. You changed your tack to justifying moral intervention by comparing "moral sense" to the perception of color - something that is not voluntary. When I point out that sensing color is in fact the sensory interpretation of an objectively existent commodity, you attempt to bluff me by saying:
You don’t understand color perception I’m afraid. You can research the topic (it is very interesting, actually), or take my word for the fact that wavelength does not alone determine color perception (other complex factors, even including psychological expectations and experience, play a role).
I'm a graphic disigner. Colors have specific wavelength frequencies that can be checked and verified by various devices that must be calibrated in order to correctly measure color values. Our individual color perception is a subjective interpretation of an objectively existent phenomena - electromagnetic wavelengths - which now can be precisely measured and used across platforms even if one is color-blind or has a different psychology than someone else. However, I think realizing it was a mistaken venture into the arena of color, you attempt to find something else to compare subjective "moral sense" to in order to find some way to justify moral interventions: beauty. But, what have you done here, other than backtrack into a subjective commodity that offers you no justification whatsoever for intervening into the affairs of others? Would you stop a man from buying a painting considers beautiful simply because you do not, and you feel very strongly that you do not? Would you justify taking a sculptor's tools and materials away from him because you disagreed with his idea of beauty? Would you correct a man at a restaurant if he called his wife beautiful and you felt she was not?
Rather, I believe your own moral sense is perturbed by the actual state of affairs, and compels you toward a belief in something without any epistemological justification.
The question isn't what you believe, but whether or not you can offer a principled justification for moral intervention that is not itself immoral. If you say you have the right to intervene "because I feel like it" sense, your morality is immoral. If you say you have the right to intervene "because I perceive an act to be wrong", you have offered two different variations on that theme; the perception of beauty, and the perception of color. If your friend tells you he needs to paint his house white to be in code or he will be thrown out of the neighborhood, and you notice he is painting his house yellow, intervention is justified because you believe he is objectively using the wrong color of paint. You tell him, "that is the wrong color! You'll be out of code. I can't let you paint your house the wrong color or you'll be thrown out. You must be color-blind or something." You do not consider it a matter of subjective, internal preference, you must attempt to intervene on behalf of your friend. If your friend tells you he wants to buy a beautiful painting and, accompanying him to the gallery he picks up a painting you do not consider beautiful and exclaims "oh, this painting is utterly breathtaking, I must have it!", do you feel comfortable intervening in his purchase and telling him that he is wrong about the beauty of the painting, and refuse to let him buy it? Or, as a friend, do you dismiss your own personal perspective and leave your friend to his own idea of "beauty", since it is subjective anyway, and it makes him happy to look at what he considers to be a beautiful painting? The color version refers to an objectively existent and quantifiable commodity (even though it has not always been so); the beauty version offers no justification for moral interventions that is not itself immoral. This is why your logic fails, RDFish. You are flipping around from one stated principle to another, from one comparison to another, because the ones that offer a sound justification for moral intervention refer to objective commodities, and the ones you abandon because they are themselves immoral refer to internal, subjective commodities. Once again: how does moral subjectivism justify moral interventions if morality is subjective in nature, in the "beauty" or "personal feelings" sense? That is the logical rebuttal you must make if you wish to meet my argument square on, and have so far failed in doing so. What subjectivist-consistent principle justifies moral interventions? Mike1962 said:
At least objectivists are consistent, since they believe their morality is objective.
To which RDFish responded:
Actually WJM here (...) disagrees with you – he denies that we can know that morality is objective, and argues only that we ought to assume it is. It is not consistent to act as though you know objective morals when you in fact cannot.
Mike made no claim that objectivists know morality is objective in nature. One can act as if a thing is true, and believe that it is true, even while admitting they do not know it is true. You don't have to know the sun will come up in the morning (in fact, unless you can see the future, you cannot know it) to both reasonably believe and and reasonably act as if it will. Mike19p62 said:
As a subjectivist, on what basis do you presume to enforce your morality on others when they disagree with you?
RDFish responds:
Because I choose to put the interests of myself and others ahead of those with moral sentiments that conflict with mine – just like you do.
So, your answer is that your basis for presuming to intervene in the affairs of others is that you put your interests ahead of theirs because theirs conflict with your own? Putting your own interests ahead of others and being willing to force your interests on them for no principled reason other than that theirs conflict with your own is pretty much the antithesis of moral behavior. It's not just immoral, it's monstrous. But, as RDFish has so clearly demonstrated, that is what moral subjectivism logically leads to.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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Hi Phinehas,
You are not claiming that your moral sense is objectively correct, you are just acting as though your moral sense is objectively correct.
No, I am not.
(Your actions–though not your claims–are indistinguishable from those of a person who believes they are objectively correct.)
Yes, this is true, but that doesn't mean I'm being inconsistent of course. The truth is, the objectivist is doing exactly what I'm doing: Attempting to make others conform to their own subjective moral sentiments. The difference is, I'm aware of it (and honest about it).
In this, you are not being logically consistent.
I am being perfectly consistent.
Are you claiming that we should all be subjectivists when it comes to reality as well as morality, since all of these are perceptions?
No.
If not, then you appear to be multiplying your inconsistencies.
No, there's not a single one.
RDF:Even if objective morality does somehow exist, nobody can objectively say what it might be. PH: I don’t think that you can even come close to supporting this assertion. RDF: It’s not my burden of proof, obviously… PH: Since it is your assertion, exactly who else do you think ought to bear the burden of proving it?
Hahaha. The claim is yours: You say that you can justify a belief in objectively true morality. It thus behooves you to do what you claim to be able to do, which is to say why you think one particular moral code is objectively true.
Are you sure you are not adding (3) So only subjective morality exists?
I do believe this to be the case (because (a) I don't see how invoking a god resolves the issue, and (b) I don't see any reason to believe in any particular god in the first place). However, my argument here doesn't depend on this at all. All I am arguing here is that even if an objectively true morality exists, we cannot objectively discern what it might be.
All you can really say is that you do not know whether objective morality exists or does not exist. Full stop.
Nope - I repeat, even if an objectively true morality exists, we cannot objectively discern what it might be.
But this is all beside the point, because the argument is not about whether objective reality exists or not, but about whether one’s actions are consistent with the existence of an objective reality or not.
I'm going to assume you mean "morality" when you write "reality" here - is that right? If so, then actually no, that isn't really what I was arguing (at least with WJM or SA) about. But fine, we can talk about that too. I suppose that everybody's actions are consistent with the existence of an objective morality. Then again, our actions are consistent with the existence of an invisible unicorn in my pocket - but these consistencies don't tell us anything about the existence of either thing.
Anyone enforcing their morality on others is acting in a manner that is consistent with the existence of an objective morality, and not consistent with a subjective morality.
No, it is perfectly consistent with the latter as well, as long as the subjectivist doesn't attempt to justify their actions by saying their morality is objectively true. And I don't say that.
Can anyone “honestly” think that wavelengths of light actually exist in an objective kind of way?
Sure - I do, for example. [edited to add: Wavelengths of light objectively exist. Our experience of color does not exist objectively, nor is it actually determined solely by wavelengths of light - see my reply on WJM on the matter of color perception.]
Why does your argument work for morality, but not reality?
I don't understand your question, sorry.
I would guess WJM’s beliefs are a bit more nuanced, but I’ll let him argue that case if he so desires.
As he has - see his post @172, where he emphasizes repeatedly that he makes no claims regarding the existence of an objectively true morality.
I certainly wouldn’t want to defend a claim about what someone (and especially Someone) cannot know. I tend to agree with G. K. Chesterton that it seems strange to suppose that we know enough about the unknown to know that it is unknowable.
You'll have to take this up with WJM.
…he denies that we can know that morality is objective, and argues only that we ought to assume it is… (I don’t think this is what WJM believes, so I am addressing this to RDF and not WJM.)
WJM says, for example, "I don’t attempt to justify objective morality as being true because I do not claim it is true." He also says, "Your ongoing mistake here is insisting even after correction that I am making an argument about whether or not we can justify a belief that objective morality is factually true." I think that's pretty clear.
Are the only two options to either know that morality is objective or to assume that it is?
No (neither are my position obviously).
Or (as seems typical of anti-IDers) are you leaving out the possibility that evidence could lead one to make an inference to the best explanation without requiring of them either perfect knowledge or pure assumption?
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. Abduction requires evidence - what evidence do you present for the existence of an objectvely true morality? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
...he denies that we can know that morality is objective, and argues only that we ought to assume it is...
(I don't think this is what WJM believes, so I am addressing this to RDF and not WJM.) Are the only two options to either know that morality is objective or to assume that it is? Or (as seems typical of anti-IDers) are you leaving out the possibility that evidence could lead one to make an inference to the best explanation without requiring of them either perfect knowledge or pure assumption?Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
Actually WJM here (who I think is probably the most articulate expositor of objectivism here) disagrees with you – he denies that we can know that morality is objective, and argues only that we ought to assume it is. It is not consistent to act as though you know objective morals when you in fact cannot.
I would guess WJM's beliefs are a bit more nuanced, but I'll let him argue that case if he so desires. I certainly wouldn't want to defend a claim about what someone (and especially Someone) cannot know. I tend to agree with G. K. Chesterton that it seems strange to suppose that we know enough about the unknown to know that it is unknowable.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
To be mistaken, there must be an objectively correct answer that one’s answer can be compared to. Since we have no way of ascertaining an objectively true moral answer, nor even if one exists, nobody can be said to “honestly” think that their moral judgements are objectively correct. All anyone can say is “This is what I subjectively perceive to be moral”. Hence, subjectivism.
Can anyone "honestly" think that wavelengths of light actually exist in an objective kind of way? Why does your argument work for morality, but not reality?Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
I am putting my interests – or the interests of others – ahead of the person I disagree with, but I am not claiming that my moral sense is objectively correct, as much as I’d like to, because it isn’t possible to know that.
Right. You are not claiming that your moral sense is objectively correct, you are just acting as though your moral sense is objectively correct. (Your actions--though not your claims--are indistinguishable from those of a person who believes they are objectively correct.) In this, you are not being logically consistent.
As far as we can tell, “color” exists only inside our heads; in the world is only wavelengths of light, reflections, contrasts, and so on.
OK. We subjectively experience what may well be (you go further with a declarative about what "is") an objective reality. We act in a manner that is indistinguishable from how someone who believes in an objective reality would act. Our actions are consistent with a belief in an objective reality even though our experience is subjective. Are you claiming that we should all be subjectivists when it comes to reality as well as morality, since all of these are perceptions? If not, then you appear to be multiplying your inconsistencies.
RDF:Even if objective morality does somehow exist, nobody can objectively say what it might be. PH: I don’t think that you can even come close to supporting this assertion. RDF: It’s not my burden of proof, obviously...
Since it is your assertion, exactly who else do you think ought to bear the burden of proving it?
What I’m saying is that (1) We do not know if objective morality exists, and (2) Even if it does, we cannot objectively determine what it is.
Are you sure you are not adding (3) So only subjective morality exists? It seems like you are trying to go from (1) We do not know whether objective morality exists or does not exist, to (3) So only subjective morality exists. You appear to be trying to use (2) to get there, but I don't think it can do the job without resorting to equivocation. All you can really say is that you do not know whether objective morality exists or does not exist. Full stop. But this is all beside the point, because the argument is not about whether objective reality exists or not, but about whether one's actions are consistent with the existence of an objective reality or not. Anyone enforcing their morality on others is acting in a manner that is consistent with the existence of an objective morality, and not consistent with a subjective morality.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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Hi Mike1962,
RDF: You pretend that your morality is objective, but it isn’t. MIKE: So do you whenever you support the efforts to enforce your morality on others.
No, I don't. I say that I am attempting to enforce my (subjective) morality on others of course.
At least objectivists are consistent, since they believe their morality is objective.
Actually WJM here (who I think is probably the most articulate expositor of objectivism here) disagrees with you - he denies that we can know that morality is objective, and argues only that we ought to assume it is. It is not consistent to act as though you know objective morals when you in fact cannot.
As a subjectivist, on what basis do you presume to enforce your morality on others when they disagree with you?
Because I choose to put the interests of myself and others ahead of those with moral sentiments that conflict with mine - just like you do. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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Hi William J Murray,
One needn’t subscribe to the idea that they “know” which moral statements are factual representations of “the truth” any more than an eyewitness of any event held to be an objective occurrence must insist they “know” what the truth is behind what they have observed. It is rationally consistent to say “To the best of my ability to honestly report, I observed X, but I admit it is possible I may be mistaken.”
To be mistaken, there must be an objectively correct answer that one's answer can be compared to. Since we have no way of ascertaining an objectively true moral answer, nor even if one exists, nobody can be said to "honestly" think that their moral judgements are objectively correct. All anyone can say is "This is what I subjectively perceive to be moral". Hence, subjectivism.
I don’t attempt to justify objective morality as being true because I do not claim it is true.
OK, I understand. (Other readers may wish to note that WJM's objectivism differs from yours on this point!)
I’m claiming that it is the only premise that yields a logically consistent moral system that is compatible with how we actually behave.
I understand that is what you claim, and I counter that simply because you feel it would be preferable for us to have an objective moral standard does not justify assuming its existence. You attempt to frame this as a matter of logical consistency, but that is not the case; as I've shown, the subjectivist makes no illogical or inconsistent assertions. Rather, I believe your own moral sense is perturbed by the actual state of affairs, and compels you toward a belief in something without any epistemological justification.
In one use of the term subjective, a person is referring solely to internal feelings. In another use of the term subjective, one is referring to the individual sensing and interpreting of objectively existent phenomena.
When I say "subjective", I am referring to something internal to the subject, but I am not necessarily referring to internal "feelings", unless you would say that a perception of color or of beauty is a "feeling". Color and beauty are not independent of objectively existing phenomena, but neither do they exist outside of the subject.
RDF: We both know that there is no objective moral standard that we can objectively determine. WJM: Again, your use of terms is sloppy and leads to sloppy assertions and conclusions.
I don't think the problem is my sloppiness. Rather, it is your failure to understand that we perceive morality in a way that is analogous to how we perceive color or beauty. These perceptions are subjective, but not independent of objective reality. There is no objective standard that we objectively know of for how we should perceive beauty, and there is no objective standard that we objectively know of for how we should perceive morality. I think that is quite clear.
As individuals, none of us can “objectively” determine anything, because it all passes through our individual senses, interpretation and mental faculties. We do our best to determine what appears to us (again, subjectively) to be mutually, even near-universally-agreed means of quantifying objective commodities; but nothing escapes Plato’s cave of fundamentally subjective experience. What we each do is subjectively examine what we hold to be objectively existent commodities and come to agreements about the proposed objective nature of such things. However, it could all be a subjective, internal delusion and nothing more.
We agree on this.
So I disagree with you here due to your improper use of terminology.
There is nothing improper about my terminology. The problem derives from the well-known difficulties in saying what makes anything objective (which you have just described). That is why I have provided analogies to other things we perceive, such as color and beauty. When I say Angelina Jolie is beautiful, I am not suggesting that she matches an objectively existing standard. Likewise, when I say puppy torture is wrong, I am not being inconsistent in any way, and I mean that I subjectively experience that act as wrong.
Let me apprise you of what I mean by way of how, over the years, I came to adopt the premise of an objective morality after being an atheistic materialist for many years: When I say the word wrong, I mean: “I experience a strong negative reaction to that act (just like you, only my introspection about it doesn’t end there). That negative reaction is either (1) entirely an internal feeling based on entirely subjective personal preference, or it is (2) a sensory capacity through which I am observing/experiencing an external objective commodity, even if imperfectly.
Let us use the beauty analogy to clarify this. When you experience the sight of something you consider beautiful, is this enirely an internal feeling or a sensory capacity through which I am observing/experiencing an external objective commodity, even if imperfectly?
“Now, which theory best describes how I actually act with regard to moral experience? If they are but subjective, personal preferences, why do some of them compel me to act even when it may put my own safety and well-being at risk? Why would such a subjective feeling obligate me to intervene in the affairs of others? How would “because I feel like it” possibly justify such behavior without being utterly hypocritical? What right have I to act on such feelings towards others even if they are really strongly felt?”
Here you are conflating two different sorts of questions. First, you ask what compels us to act on our moral sentiments, even when it is difficult or dangerous to do so, and second, you ask what justifies us to do so. The answer is the same for both, though: There are no objectively discernable explanations or justifications for our behaviors. Why are we motivated to have sex with people we find attractive, even though it may entail risks? Why do we risk our lives to climb mountains or land on the moon? Is there some objective standard that tells us we ought to do these things (or not)? No, there isn't. I am not motivated to fly to the moon (why? I don't know) but I am motivated to have sex with attractive women, and I am also highly motivated to stand up for others who suffer injustice, even if it entails risk and cost to myself. Why? I don't know, but I can't deny that I am. Maybe it's because in my subconscious I think this will make me more desireable to attractive women who will then decide to have sex with me... but I don't think that's the reason. But I could be wrong.
“If I adopt the idea that morality is a purely subjective feeling without any necessary consequences, can I not then train myself to not interfere in the acts of others, and also train myself to be more free (like Bundy) to not be inhibited by mere personal feelings in my day to day life?
I don't understand. If it is possible to train ourselves in this way, why couldn't one do this without adopting the idea that morality is subjective? If I am going to choose to "train myself" to ignore my moral sentiments, why wouldn't I ignore some objective standard of morality - one that I can't even demonstrate exists?!
“Since I do not know which is true – subjective morality or objective morality...
No, this is not the question. Rather, look at what we already have agreed is true: We cannot objectively discern any objective morality by which we ought to live, period. Any assumption, then, of some particular morality is nothing but a personal choice (a "preference", as you say). Living by an objective moral standard is simply not an option available to us.
... – then I must logically adopt the premise that doesn’t lead to such irrational self-conflictions and hypocrisies. Not that I know it is true, but rather it is the only premise that makes any sense in describing my actual experience.
On the contrary, my actual experience dictates that to live in good faith I must admit (as you do) that we have no objectively accessible morality, and thus I have no choice but to do what I perceive as right.
Next, in your attempt to equivocate your way out of the “because I feel like it” box you are in (and already agreed to on more than one occasion above), you reverse your argument and agree with everything I have argued by saying that our moral sense is a perception we cannot change because we feel like it, like the perception of color, and thus categorically different from “personal preferences”:
Sorry, but I think you've lost the thread here. I have never reversed any of my arguments of course. I have made distinctions between involuntary perceptions and deliberate choices, and between senses and preferences, but I've also explained repeatedly that my argument does not rest on these distinctions. I've simply pointed out that if you think of our moral sense the way you think of our ice cream preferences, you fail to understand some basic aspects of human experience.
Because our mind interprets light wavelengths as color doesn’t change the fact that the “color”, or technically the electromagnetic wavelength reflected by the commodity, is considered a characteristic of the object itself and not an entirely subjective commodity.
You don't understand color perception I'm afraid. You can research the topic (it is very interesting, actually), or take my word for the fact that wavelength does not alone determine color perception (other complex factors, even including psychological expectations and experience, play a role). In any event, rather than debate that topic, you can think about our appreciation of beauty, rather than color.
RDF: IF morality was comparable to color perception (and that is exactly my argument), then there would be an actual commodity “out there” that is sending an actual signal to us that we are receiving through an actual sensory capacity to do so and interpreting the results in our mind/brain. This would mean that morality is an actual sensory capacity that recieves an actual moral signal from the world “out there”. WJM: You kind of did yourself in with that comparison.
Again, your mistake here derives from the fact that you don't know anything about color perception. It is a favorite of philosophers of mind for several reasons, including the complex and incomplete mapping between properties that we consider objective (such as wavelength or chromatic opposition) and others we don't (such as past experience with colored objects). Again, the relationship between objective facts and subjective perceptions is probably clearer for you if you think about beauty than color.
Again, I’m not making an argument about “truth”, but in any event, I don’t insist anyone “take my word for it”. They have moral eyes, as your comparison indicates, and they have reason. I expect them to figure it out for themselves.
Well, William, this is in fact what we all do. Even those who (unlike you) pretend that they do know what moral code is objectively true, in the end, rely on the same moral sense that I do when we decide how to act. We are all subjectivists - we all rely on our (necessarily subjective) moral sense to know right from wrong. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
SA: Your own system, however, permits anyone to say that torture is a morally good act. Within subjectivism, you have to accept that. RDFish: This is completely confused. My moral system does not permit anyone to do anything. Rather, it observes that morality is subjective. You pretend that your morality is objective, but it isn’t. SA: I don’t know what your moral system is, but within the moral system of subjectivism, an individual is permitted to state for himself, for example, that loving his family is a good moral act. He is permitted to state that torturning puppies is immoral.
Let's clarify here: There is nothing about subjectivism that talks about what people are permitted to do or not to do; rather, it is simply the claim that there is no standard of morality that exists outside of people's own perceptions or judgements. The concept of "forbidding" or "permitting" is not part of the subjectivist position at all. And while I do believe that it is the case that no objective moral standard exists (I actually find the concept of objective morality to be incoherent), here I am actually arguing a weaker position, which is that even if there somehow existed an objective moral standard, there is no objective method by which human beings can discern what this standard might be.
Subjectivism permits this. To permit is synonymous with “does not forbid”. Subjectivism allows each individual to create his own moral code – and that code must be based on the individual’s subjective reasons and not because of the value of an external authority.
I do not believe this is what people do at all - neither subjectivists nor objectivists. Like most people (outside of philosophers), I have never sat down and attempted to "create a moral code" based on reason. We cannot reason our way to a moral code, because reason does not ultimately tell us what to find morally acceptable or repugnant. Rather, I observe that I have a moral sense, and I observe that most everyone else has a moral sense too (except for psychopaths).
Whatever the individual determines is morally good or bad, is in fact, morally good or bad for that person.
In order not to equivocate between objective and subjective statements, I would say that subjectivists experience their own perceptions regarding morality, and observe that the same is true of people who call themselves "objectivists".
Subjectivism does not impose or assign moral values to any human act.
That is correct.
RDF: If somebody said they perceived the sky as orange, would you be bound to agree they are correct? SA: I would be bound to accept that they said that, unless I thought they were lying.
Very well. Saying that puppy torture is wrong is in a way analogous to saying the sky is blue. The wrongness of puppy torture and the blueness of the sky are our perceptions - they exist inside our heads, not outside in the world. There are things that affect our perceptions: In the case of color, they include wavelengths of light, contrasts, psychological expectations, and so on; in the case of morality they include reciprocity, suffering, happiness, and so on. But the perception of color (or, say, beauty) is not objectively correct or incorrect, and neither is the perception of morality.
As I said, there are no objective measurements that determine which acts are immoral. You added “which people consider” immoral. We can go farther and notice you’re claiming that ethics is objective, but that the sky is blue is not.
Sorry, I lost you here. Again: There are objective facts that influence - but do not determine - our perception of color, beauty, and morality. In each case the ultimate determining factors are subjective, because they are our internal nature, inside our own heads.
If morality is based on objective facts, then subjectivism would be a false moral system.
That is correct. But morality is not determined by objective facts.
We also have no explanation for why I find torturing puppies to be morally reprehensible.
That's right in the same sense as we have no explanation for why I see the sky as blue or Angelina Jolie as beautiful. We can talk about wavelengths and chromatic opposition and contrasts and so on, or facial symmetry and smoothness and feature proportions and so on, but these objective factors do not actually account for my subjective perceptions of color or beauty (we can always ask, "Why are those particular combinations of features seen as beautiful?). Likewise I can point to the suffering of innocent and sentient creatures, but those factros do not actually account for my subjective perception of (im)morality (we can always ask, "Why are those particular combinations of factors seen as (im)moral?").
With this it would seem that you have no explanation for why you act in certain ways. You cannot explain why you would do one thing and avoid another. As you seemed to say before, you claim to have no choice in the matter.
Of course we choose what we do, but we do not choose what we find to be orange, beautiful, or moral. And we can talk about things that influence our perceptions, but we cannot ultimately account for them, other than at some point to say, "That is how I see it!".
If this was true for everyone, then any human act would be justified since the person cculd not explain why he did it, and is not free to change his moral ideas.
I don't believe that this justifies any human act, and I don't see why you think it does.
This would say something about criminal rehabilitation, moral education and reform.
I agree there are implications from moral theory to these issues, but that's another discussion. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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I'd like to say that I appreciate everyone's sincere and civil debating!RDFish
January 28, 2015
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RDFish: You pretend that your morality is objective, but it isn’t.
So do you whenever you support the efforts to enforce your morality on others. At least objectivists are consistent, since they believe their morality is objective. As a subjectivist, on what basis do you presume to enforce your morality on others when they disagree with you?mike1962
January 28, 2015
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RDFish said:
We agree that we do not know whether or not objective morality exists, and furthermore that even if objective morality does exist, we do not know what particular moral code might happen to be the objectively true one. This means that it is irrational to assume that we do in fact know these things.
One needn't subscribe to the idea that they "know" which moral statements are factual representations of "the truth" any more than an eyewitness of any event held to be an objective occurrence must insist they "know" what the truth is behind what they have observed. It is rationally consistent to say "To the best of my ability to honestly report, I observed X, but I admit it is possible I may be mistaken."
Subjective morality is not a choice; it is the condition we find ourselves in. If you assume that your morality is objectively true, and I assume my morality is objectively true, we have both made subjective assertions about our moral codes, and neither of these assertions can be justified as being true.
I don't attempt to justify objective morality as being true because I do not claim it is true. I'm claiming that it is the only premise that yields a logically consistent moral system that is compatible with how we actually behave. Whether it is true in the sense of factually being the state of affairs we find ourselves in or not is entirely irrelevant to the argument. I do, however, want to disabuse you of another terminological equivocation; when you say:
Subjective morality is not a choice; it is the condition we find ourselves in."
You are again conflating two entirely different meanings by using the same term, such as you did before with the term "feelings". You are conflating two categorically different uses of the term "subjective". In one use of the term subjective, a person is referring solely to internal feelings. In another use of the term subjective, one is referring to the individual sensing and interpreting of objectively existent phenomena. The word "subjective" is used for both categories of experience, but they refer to two fundamentally different categories of experience which lead to fundamentally different types of behavior and fundamentally different sets of rights, obligations and justifications used to explain such behavior.
In order for a belief to be considered knowledge, there must be a justification – a reason to think it is true. At the outset you acknowledge that we do not know objective morality, and so it is logically inconsistent from the start to assume that you do know it.
I haven't claimed to know that objective morality is true. Nor have I argued such.
we do not know what particular moral code might happen to be the objectively true one.
As with any observation/experience, we are subject to misinterpretation and mistake.
We both know that there is no objective moral standard that we can objectively determine.
Again, your use of terms is sloppy and leads to sloppy assertions and conclusions. As individuals, none of us can "objectively" determine anything, because it all passes through our individual senses, interpretation and mental faculties. We do our best to determine what appears to us (again, subjectively) to be mutually, even near-universally-agreed means of quantifying objective commodities; but nothing escapes Plato's cave of fundamentally subjective experience. What we each do is subjectively examine what we hold to be objectively existent commodities and come to agreements about the proposed objective nature of such things. However, it could all be a subjective, internal delusion and nothing more. So I disagree with you here due to your improper use of terminology.
I am observing that we have no justification for saying any particular moral code is objectively true.
Your ongoing mistake here is insisting even after correction that I am making an argument about whether or not we can justify a belief that objective morality is factually true.
This mistake is made over and over again here by you and others, because you are so accustomed to your assumption of objective morality that each time you see the word “wrong” you read it as “objectively wrong”.
No such mistake is being made. I've pointed out that if "wrong" doesn't mean "wrong according to some objective standard" as you insist, then that necessarily indicates that "wrong" = "personal preference" and nothing more. You validate that point when you say:
When I say that word [wrong - WJM], I mean “I experience a strong negative reaction to that act”
You go on:
When you say that word, you mean: I am assuming that this act violates an objective moral code, however I cannot justify my assumption, but I am unsatisfied with saying that my reaction subjective, and desire that some transcendent authority give my particular moral perceptions greater weight”.
Incorrect. Let me apprise you of what I mean by way of how, over the years, I came to adopt the premise of an objective morality after being an atheistic materialist for many years: When I say the word wrong, I mean: "I experience a strong negative reaction to that act (just like you, only my introspection about it doesn't end there). That negative reaction is either (1) entirely an internal feeling based on entirely subjective personal preference, or it is (2) a sensory capacity through which I am observing/experiencing an external objective commodity, even if imperfectly. "Now, which theory best describes how I actually act with regard to moral experience? If they are but subjective, personal preferences, why do some of them compel me to act even when it may put my own safety and well-being at risk? Why would such a subjective feeling obligate me to intervene in the affairs of others? How would "because I feel like it" possibly justify such behavior without being utterly hypocritical? What right have I to act on such feelings towards others even if they are really strongly felt?" "If I adopt the idea that morality is a purely subjective feeling without any necessary consequences, can I not then train myself to not interfere in the acts of others, and also train myself to be more free (like Bundy) to not be inhibited by mere personal feelings in my day to day life? Or would do I experience that as itself "wrong"? "Since I do not know which is true - subjective morality or objective morality - then I must logically adopt the premise that doesn't lead to such irrational self-conflictions and hypocrisies. Not that I know it is true, but rather it is the only premise that makes any sense in describing my actual experience." Next, in your attempt to equivocate your way out of the "because I feel like it" box you are in (and already agreed to on more than one occasion above), you reverse your argument and agree with everything I have argued by saying that our moral sense is a perception we cannot change because we feel like it, like the perception of color, and thus categorically different from "personal preferences":
Our perception of color is not voluntary, nor a “personal preference” – it is a perception. Likewise with our moral sense.
All physical characteristics of any commodity held to be objectively existent are described via sensory perceptions. Because our mind interprets light wavelengths as color doesn't change the fact that the "color", or technically the electromagnetic wavelength reflected by the commodity, is considered a characteristic of the object itself and not an entirely subjective commodity. IF morality was comparable to color perception (and that is exactly my argument), then there would be an actual commodity "out there" that is sending an actual signal to us that we are receiving through an actual sensory capacity to do so and interpreting the results in our mind/brain. This would mean that morality is an actual sensory capacity that recieves an actual moral signal from the world "out there". You kind of did yourself in with that comparison.
There is no logical justification for making unfounded assumptions about the objective truth of some moral code and then insisting that others take your word for it.
Again, I'm not making an argument about "truth", but in any event, I don't insist anyone "take my word for it". They have moral eyes, as your comparison indicates, and they have reason. I expect them to figure it out for themselves.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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Hi Phinehas,
You appear to be conflating these two concepts: (1) Objective morality exists, but you cannot convince me in any objective way concerning its details. (2) Objective morality doesn’t exist. You have not demonstrated or supported the jump from (1) to (2), yet when you say that everyone’s morality is just as subjective as everyone else’s, you are basically claiming (2) even though you may pretend you are only claiming (1).
Read what I've written more carefully. What I'm saying is that (1) We do not know if objective morality exists, and (2) Even if it does, we cannot objectively determine what it is. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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SA: Your own system, however, permits anyone to say that torture is a morally good act. Within subjectivism, you have to accept that. RDFish: This is completely confused. My moral system does not permit anyone to do anything. Rather, it observes that morality is subjective. You pretend that your morality is objective, but it isn’t. I don't know what your moral system is, but within the moral system of subjectivism, an individual is permitted to state for himself, for example, that loving his family is a good moral act. He is permitted to state that torturning puppies is immoral. Subjectivism permits this. To permit is synonymous with "does not forbid". Subjectivism allows each individual to create his own moral code - and that code must be based on the individual's subjective reasons and not because of the value of an external authority.
It’s a morally good act for anyone who declares it to be so. Who thinks that?
Every person who accepts the subjectivist moral system thinks that. Whatever the individual determines is morally good or bad, is in fact, morally good or bad for that person. Subjectivism does not impose or assign moral values to any human act.
If somebody said they perceived the sky as orange, would you be bound to agree they are correct?
I would be bound to accept that they said that, unless I thought they were lying. But you're merely offering skepticism about the interpretation of any sensory input.
First, there are all sorts of objective facts that determine which acts people consider immoral.
Again, you're twisting it. As I said, there are no objective measurements that determine which acts are immoral. You added "which people consider" immoral. We can go farther and notice you're claiming that ethics is objective, but that the sky is blue is not. If morality is based on objective facts, then subjectivism would be a false moral system.
We also have no explanation for why I find torturing puppies to be morally reprehensible.
With this it would seem that you have no explanation for why you act in certain ways. You cannot explain why you would do one thing and avoid another. As you seemed to say before, you claim to have no choice in the matter. If this was true for everyone, then any human act would be justified since the person cculd not explain why he did it, and is not free to change his moral ideas. This would say something about criminal rehabilitation, moral education and reform.Silver Asiatic
January 28, 2015
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