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Moral Viewpoints Matter

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Those of us who argue that morality is grounded in a transcendent, objective standard often use extreme cases to demonstrate our point. We argue, for example, that in no conceivable universe would torturing an infant for personal pleasure be considered anything other than an unmitigated evil. Since there is at least one self-evidently moral truth that transcends all places, times, circumstances and contexts, the objectivity of morality is demonstrated.

The other day frequent commenter Learned Hand stated that “[Subjectiviests are] very much like [objectivists], in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.”

The objectivist response to LH is two-fold. On the one hand, we say that it is entirely obvious and unsurprising that subjectivists feel powerfully about their moral beliefs. After all, subjectivists’ moral beliefs are grounded in the objective reality of a transcendent moral standard just like everyone else’s (even though subjectivists deny that this is so). Far from asserting that subjectivists are amoral monsters, objectivists absolutely insist that any given subjectivist can be as sensitive (or even perhaps in some instances more sensitive) to the demands of the objective moral law as an objectivists. Subjectivists, like everyone else, know that (and always behave as if) torturing an infant for personal pleasure is objectively wrong. Which, of course, is why the rest of LH’s rant in the linked comment is not only mean spirited, it is also blithering nonsense.

On the other hand, objectivists also argue that the subjectivist argument that they feel their morality just as powerfully as objectivists is patently false given their own premises. One group of people believe that morals are based on an objective, transcendent moral standard binding on all people at all times; another group of people take Will Provine seriously when he says no ultimate foundation for ethics exists. Certainly the responses of individuals within the group will vary. But can there be any doubt that people who believe morality is based on something real will, at the margin, feel more strongly about their moral commitments than people who believe their moral commitments are, ultimately, based on nothing at all? Can you imagine a moral objectivist insisting that we should not “judge” Aztec human sacrifice by our current cultural standards, as I once saw a curator of a museum here in Denver do?

Of course, the key to this analysis is the phrase “at the margin.” All decisions are made at the margin, and that is why when it comes down to the actual practical differences in the behavior of subjectivists and objectivists, examples from the poles are unhelpful, because the behavior of both groups will be practically identical.  But is there really a difference in behavior at the margin? As I argued above, simple logic dictates that we should expect a difference in behavior at the margin. But do we have any concrete examples? I believe we do. It is called American jurisprudence.

As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of law began with the publication in 1897 of The Path of the Law by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this groundbreaking article Holmes almost singlehandedly founded the school of “legal realism,” which gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal nihilism,” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judge’s rulings. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? Because, as Phillip Johnson has explained, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism,” and Holmes’ great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of naturalism. Truly Holmes’ ideas could be called “jurisprudential naturalism.” Thus began the modern era of what has come to be known as “judicial activism.”

What does all of this have to do with “morality at the margin”? The answer lies in the structure and history of the American Constitution. In the Federalist 79 Hamilton argued that judges would be restrained from judicial activism by their fear of impeachment:

The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They [federal judges] are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other.

For structural reasons (impeach requires a supermajority in the Senate), political reasons (super majorities necessary for impeachment are impossible if even a significant minority of the Senate agrees with the results of the judicial activism), and historical reasons (Jefferson’s failed use of the impeachment process to check the judiciary weighed very heavily against subsequent attempts), Hamilton turned out to be wrong.

If judges cannot be checked effectively by fear of impeachment when they abuse their office, what does check their power? Just this: Judges take an oath of office to uphold the constitution, and the only practical check on their power is individual judge’s moral commitment to that oath. And it is here that the difference between subjectivist and objectivist commitments to morality have plain effects at the margin.

Every time a judge makes a ruling (especially in the area of constitutional law), there is a temptation. Suppose a judge has a powerfully felt commitment to a particular policy (it does not matter what the policy preference is). Suppose further that the text, structure and history of the constitution provides no warrant for elevating that policy preference to the status of constitutional imperative. If there is no effective political check on his power, what is to stop the judge from nevertheless falsely ruling that the constitution does indeed elevate his policy preference to constitutional imperative? Again, nothing but his moral commitment to his oath. This is especially true for Supreme Court judges whose rulings are not subject to further review.

Which group of judges has the stronger moral commitment?  Based on a host of data, it is certainly the case that political liberals are far more likely to be areligious. Further, areligious people are far more likely than religious people to be moral subjectivists. Therefore, we can conclude that liberal judges are more likely to be moral subjectivists. Is it any wonder then that the vast majority of cases of judicial activism come down on the side most amenable to political liberals? Indeed, while I will be the first to admit that there have been a few rare cases of conservative activism, judicial activism is overwhelming seen as a phenomenon of the left. Conservative judges view their project as essentially a moral project. Liberal judges see their project as, in Justice White’s famous phrase, the raw exercise of power. It cannot be reasonably disputed that liberal judges (whom we can conclude have a largely subjectivist moral viewpoint) do not have as strong a moral commitment to their oath. And that, Learned Hand, is why it matters.

Comments
Hi Phinehas,
This only works because of the ambiguity in your, “to do the same.” If “to do the same” means “to do that which I feel strongly about,” then you aren’t really being consistent, since you are elevating your own feelings above theirs. Your moral view is being given special treatment as opposed to their moral view.
I am putting my interests - or the interests of others - ahead of the person I disagree with, but I am not claiming that my moral sense is objectively correct, as much as I'd like to, because it isn't possible to know that.
If “to do the same” means “acting in a manner consistent with their own moral sense,” then you are being consistent, but you are describing something that is completely at odds with how people behave and what you’ve previously revealed about your own view on morality.
Sorry I don't understand this. I act in accordance with my moral sense, just as you do.
Contrary to your characterization, the moral sense is a perception… OK. Now, what is it that you think you are perceiving? An internal preference? Or something that is objectively true?
Read my analogy to color perception. In both cases, we take in all sorts of information (objective facts) about the circumstance, and form a perception inside our heads. As far as we can tell, "color" exists only inside our heads; in the world is only wavelengths of light, reflections, contrasts, and so on. As far as we can tell, "morality" exists only inside our heads, too - in the world is only charity, torture, and so on.
RDF:Even if objective morality does somehow exist, nobody can objectively say what it might be. PH: I don’t think that you can even come close to supporting this assertion.
It's not my burden of proof, obviously: If you think you can establish that one particular moral code is objectively true, please tell us how you manage to do that.
After all, torturing puppies for fun is wrong, wrong, wrong! For everyone, everywhere, all the time. Right?
That's certainly how it appears to me. How about you? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
Subjectivism is consistent in the sense that the subjectivist admits that their own morality is just as subjective as everyone else’s.
You appear to be conflating these two concepts: (1) Objective morality exists, but you cannot convince me in any objective way concerning its details. (2) Objective morality doesn't exist. You have not demonstrated or supported the jump from (1) to (2), yet when you say that everyone's morality is just as subjective as everyone else's, you are basically claiming (2) even though you may pretend you are only claiming (1).Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
Even if objective morality does somehow exist, nobody can objectively say what it might be.
I don't think that you can even come close to supporting this assertion. After all, torturing puppies for fun is wrong, wrong, wrong! For everyone, everywhere, all the time. Right?Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
Contrary to your characterization, the moral sense is a perception...
OK. Now, what is it that you think you are perceiving? An internal preference? Or something that is objectively true?Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDF:
I attempt to convince people to adhere to my moral sense...
Convincing isn't really the issue though. Compulsion is, as you rightly admit (sort of) below.
The subjectivist is entirely consistent, holding that there is no objective moral standard, acting in a manner consistent with their own moral sense, and attempting to force others to do the same (without pretending that others are bound by some objective moral code).
This only works because of the ambiguity in your, "to do the same." If "to do the same" means "to do that which I feel strongly about," then you aren't really being consistent, since you are elevating your own feelings above theirs. Your moral view is being given special treatment as opposed to their moral view. If "to do the same" means "acting in a manner consistent with their own moral sense," then you are being consistent, but you are describing something that is completely at odds with how people behave and what you've previously revealed about your own view on morality.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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Hi William J Murray, We agree that we do not know whether or not objective morality exists, and furthermore that even if objective morality does exist, we do not know what particular moral code might happen to be the objectively true one. This means that it is irrational to assume that we do in fact know these things. Subjective morality is not a choice; it is the condition we find ourselves in. If you assume that your morality is objectively true, and I assume my morality is objectively true, we have both made subjective assertions about our moral codes, and neither of these assertions can be justified as being true. In order for a belief to be considered knowledge, there must be a justification - a reason to think it is true. At the outset you acknowledge that we do not know objective morality, and so it is logically inconsistent from the start to assume that you do know it.
There are a lot of things I do not know, but must act in life as if those assumptions are true. I’m not pretending that I know the sun will come up in the morning; I’m operating under the assumption that it will do so based on experience.
This illustrates the problem with your position quite well: We reasonably assume the sun will rise based on experience. The reliable observation of sunrise allows us to justify our expectation that it will continue to rise. In contrast, we have no prior experience of somehow discovering an objective moral code, and therefore we have no justification for assuming that one particular moral code or another is true.
Similarly, since I actually must act as if morality is objective, giving me moral authority and obligation to intervene in the affairs of others in some cases, I assume morality refers to an objective source.
You actually must not act as if morality is objective, because as we both know, there is no way to ascertain such a thing. Rather, you must act as if we live in the world we live in; otherwise you are living under an unjustified pretense.
You claim it is “consistent”, but do not explain how it is “consistent”, and what it is consistent with. Claiming it is logically consistent is not making the case it is logically consistent.
Subjectivism is consistent in the sense that the subjectivist admits that their own morality is just as subjective as everyone else's. When a subjectivist admonishes someone else on moral grounds, she is not being inconsistent - she is not assuming an objective truth for her own moral code (this is the charge of objectivists here). Rather, the subjectivist is being honest and acknowledging the facts, while the objectivists attempt to trump others' morality by a made-up claim (or, as you say, assumption) that their own morality is objectively true.
You seem to consistently make the same debate error; I argue that if moral subjectivism is true, then morality = personal preferences and your only available principle of justification is “because I feel like it”.
Let me point this out, although it is not directly germane to our debate: You insist on calling our moral sense a preference, or say it is "because I feel like it" - something that is like a whim, a transient mood. This is why I say you fail to understand the nature of moral sentiments in human beings. Contrary to your characterization, the moral sense is a perception - an involuntary reaction to particular circumstances. You can ascertain this for yourself by taking a clear moral precept (it is wrong to torture babies for pleasure) and attempting to change your mind about that. There are some people who can do this; they are called "psychopaths". Normal people cannot do this, which explains why there is so much concordance among people's moral stances.
You counter, essentially, by stating that if subjectivism is true (whereas you say the objectivist is “falsely declaring” or “pretending”, which establishes a subjectivist point of view assumption) then, you argue, objectivists are factually doing the same thing as subjectivists.
You're mistaken here as well: As I've explained a number of times above, the subjectivist need not show that no objective morality exists. Subjectivism is justified by something you have already conceded: Even if objective morality does somehow exist, nobody can objectively say what it might be. This means that all we have are subjective ideas about right and wrong - there is no alternative available, as much as we might wish otherwise.
RDF: The problem is that you can’t change this by falsely declaring that your own particular morals are somehow known to be objectively true. WJM: Once again, you are making a categorical mistake in your response by assuming morality **is** subjective in nature.
Once again, I am doing no such thing. What I said was that you are falsely declaring (or assuming) that some particular moral code is somehow known to be objectively true. In contrast, I am not assuming that morality **is** subjective in nature; I am observing that we have no justification for saying any particular moral code is objectively true. And I am correct in this - as you've already acknowledged.
IOW, if “rightness” = strongly felt personal preferences, then a stronglly felt personal preference cannot be wrong, because it is the very definition of “what is right” under moral subjectivism. You cannot have it both ways, either “what is right to do” is defined as “strongly felt personal preference”, or something else, outside of the category of “strongly felt personal personal preference”, defines what is and is not moral to do.
This mistake is made over and over again here by you and others, because you are so accustomed to your assumption of objective morality that each time you see the word "wrong" you read it as "objectively wrong". We both know that there is no objective moral standard that we can objectively determine. We both have a moral sense, and we both experience strong reactions to acts we perceive as being immoral. We both call these acts "wrong". When I say that word, I mean "I experience a strong negative reaction to that act". When you say that word, you mean "I am assuming that this act violates an objective moral code, however I cannot justify my assumption, but I am unsatisfied with saying that my reaction is subjective, and desire that some transcendent authority give my particular moral perceptions greater weight".
Under subjectivism, one’s moral “feelings” are assumed to be entirely subjective personal preferences. Under objectivism, moral “feelings” are assumed to represent a sensory capacity where an objective commodity is being sensed.
The subjectivist perceives facts about the situation at hand, and subjectively perceives a moral value associated with the acts involved. Similarly, we perceive complex information about a visual scene (including reflected light, ambient light, contrasts, psychological expectations, and other factors) and subjectively form a perception of color. Our perception of color is not voluntary, nor a "personal preference" - it is a perception. Likewise with our moral sense. The objectivist does the exact same thing, but goes on to make claims (or assumptions) about something outside of themselves which tells them what the correct moral perception is supposed to be. This is like claiming (or assuming) that one particular experience of color is the objectively correct one, and is determined by something outside of our retinas and visual cortex. It may be true - I can't prove it isn't - but we have no objective way of determining that this is the case, nor any objective way to determine what particular experience of color is objectively correct.
Even if one is in error about what they sense to be objectively wrong, their action is still logically justifiable;
There is no logical justification for making unfounded assumptions about the objective truth of some moral code and then insisting that others take your word for it.
If you agree that “because I feel like it” or “because I strongly prefer it” are not suitable foundational principles for any morality, then make your case about what other principle is available – ultimately – under moral subjectivism.
You are asking for an objective justification for something that is not objectively knowable - that justification obviously does not exist. I am asking you to acknowledge that we are all in the same boat, and simply assuming that one particular moral perception is the objectively correct one does not make anyone more logical, more justified, or more consistent. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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If ten witnesses come forth and agree that a particular crime occurred, but vary widely in their description of the supposed perpetrator, is that prima facie evidence that no crime at all occurred, but rather that the whole event was simple the product of the subjective imagination of 10 different people? Of course not. Personal experience descriptions of objective events and commodities are often varied and conflicting; that is the nature of the process when an objective commodity is subjectively interpreted via sensory input.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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HR:
I’m pretty sure most folks can agree on this… but likely with different underlying reasons.
Of course. The question is whether or not some of those folks can explain their underlying reasons with as much clarity and logical consistency as has WJM.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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hrun0815 #159, I'm saying that disagreement on abortion can be rooted in world view rather than moral standard. edit: Hrun: Did you simply restate that people have a moral disagreement about whether or not abortion is morally wrong? I'm saying that there is no moral disagreement, rather there is disagreement on what abortion is.Box
January 28, 2015
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Piotr:
How do you distinguish someone whose morality is objectively superior from someone who only thinks so?
This certainly is a challenge for the objectivist, but at least it is a challenge that they can undertake whilst remaining logically consistent. On the other hand, the subjectivist can only assert or assume that their own personal preferences are superior to others, else how can they justify enforcing them at all? Even setting aside the issue with everyone's personal preferences somehow being superior to everyone else's, this leaves them in a very tricky position. In order to be logically consistent, either they must 1) say that it is not only perfectly acceptable, but right for one person to force another to eat vanilla ice cream if one feels really, really strongly about it, or they must admit that 2) feeling really, really strongly about something is not enough to justify one person violating the liberty of another by resorting to compulsion. (Where one might get a right to liberty in the first place is a different, though not wholly unrelated, question.) But if feeling really, really strongly about something is not enough for the subjectivist, then what is? Here is where the subjectivist will attempt to smuggle some sort of objectivity into the argument. According to this line of thinking, the subjectivist isn't acting merely on personal preference, but upon moral preference. Evidently, moral preference differs from personal preference chiefly in that it somehow confers something that looks an awful lot like objective superiority upon the one holding a certain moral preference (but not on the one holding the opposite moral preference). How else to describe the difference? From whence this objectivity? Perhaps, if only one can gather enough subjectivity together in one place, objectivity is bound to emerge sooner or later. Just so.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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Not necessarily. Consider the abortion debate. I suppose that both sides agree that murder is wrong – no moral disagreement here. However not both sides agree that abortion is murder. IOW disagreement doesn’t always imply different moral standards, it may also point to different world view.
Did you simply restate that people have a moral disagreement about whether or not abortion is morally wrong? Does that not mean that there are different moral standards even if both agree that murder is morally wrong?hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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faded_glory: In fact the opposite is true: there are as many moral standards as there a people. If you drill deep enough down, you will always find points of disagreement about moral issues between any two people. No two people agree 100% about absolutely everything. This is prima facie evidence against morality being objective.
Not necessarily. Consider the abortion debate. I suppose that both sides agree that murder is wrong - no moral disagreement here. However the main issue is that both sides do not agree that abortion is murder. IOW disagreement doesn't always imply different moral standards, it may also point to different world view.Box
January 28, 2015
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Whether any subjectivists are convinced by your argument or not, it has been argued about as well as it can be
I'm pretty sure most folks can agree on this... but likely with different underlying reasons.hrun0815
January 28, 2015
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WJM @ 153: It is exactly this kind of clarity in thinking and skill at clearly elucidating difficult concepts that keeps bringing me back to UD. Whether any subjectivists are convinced by your argument or not, it has been argued about as well as it can be. Thank you.Phinehas
January 28, 2015
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RDFish: I attempt to convince people to adhere to my moral sense, and they attempt the same with me. I don’t pretend that there is some objective standard that applies to both of us.
But you act as if you do. You can claim to be a subjectivist all day if you like, and stomp your feet and rub your belly while doing it, but the moment you impose your morals on another you are acting like an objectivist and your subjectivist claim wafts away like an irrelevant vapour. That point seems to be lost on you. Subjectivists who act like objectivists are in effect objectivists. Actions are what counts.mike1962
January 28, 2015
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faded_glory said:
You are confusing the subjective nature of moral standards with the absence of moral standards altogether.
No, we are simply pointing out that the only "standard" ultimately available under logically consistent moral subjectivism is "because I feel like it", and we assume that nobody here considers that standard to be sufficient warrant for intervening in the affairs of others.
In fact the opposite is true: there are as many moral standards as there a people. If you drill deep enough down, you will always find points of disagreement about moral issues between any two people. No two people agree 100% about absolutely everything. This is prima facie evidence against morality being objective.
Then, by the same token, the fact that many diverse cultures have developed very similar moral standards is prima facie evidence that morality is an objective commodity even if it is being subjectively interpreted, sometimes erroneously.
‘Correcting the behaviours of others’ is what morality is about. Regardless if it is subjective or objective, the concept of morality is about the desire to promote acts that one regards as good, and to prevent acts that one regards as bad.
The term "correcting" carries with it objectivist perspectives, as if there is some objective standard by which behavior can be judged corect or incorrect. The problem here is that under subjectivism, there is no obective standard; there is only personal preference which is the de facto standard under subjectivism. IOW, once one clears away the obfuscating misuse of terminology, you are saying that "what morality is", definitionally, is "getting people to behave as you personally prefer they would behave.", where "correctness" = your personal preference.
A thorough going subjectivist, just like every other person in the world, will indeed try to correct the behaviour of others when it violates his moral standard.
Stripped of equivocating language: A thorough-going subjectivist will try to get others to behave as they would personally prefer." and, I would add, would admit that this is indeed what subjectivist morality is, ultimately; doing whatever one feels like doing in order to get others to behave as they would personally prefer. I submit that such a "standard" is itself self-evidently immoral, and so logically disqualifies "moral subjectivism" as even a possible worldview candidate for grounding one's morality.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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RDFish said:
What I mean is this: You don’t know that morality is objective (which you just conceded), so it is disingenuous to argue that objective morality is superior, or that you adhere to objective morality.
Except I've never made such an argument. The argument I and some others here make is not that objective morality is superior in practice, but rather is superior with regards to its logical consistency, both internally and in relationship to how we actually behave in the world (as if we have moral rights and obligations that are objectively valid - meaning, valid whether others agree or not).
These claims can’t be true if you don’t even know if objective morality exists, which is why I say you are pretending.
This is where you seem to fail to grasp the nature of the argument. It's not an argument about whether or not objective morality is true, or actually exists; it's an argument about the logical consequences assuming the premises. If not knowing whether morality is objective or subjective in nature equals "pretending", then we're both "pretending". There are a lot of things I do not know, but must act in life as if those assumptions are true. I'm not pretending that I know the sun will come up in the morning; I'm operating under the assumption that it will do so based on experience. Similarly, since I actually must act as if morality is objective, giving me moral authority and obligation to intervene in the affairs of others in some cases, I assume morality refers to an objective source. That logically necessary assumption (in this argument) is not an assertion or a claim that morality **is** factually objective in nature.
The subjectivist is entirely consistent, holding that there is no objective moral standard, acting in a manner consistent with their own moral sense, and attempting to force others to do the same (without pretending that others are bound by some objective moral code).
You claim it is "consistent", but do not explain how it is "consistent", and what it is consistent with. Claiming it is logically consistent is not making the case it is logically consistent.
No, objectivists have no more right to impose their views than anyone else does. They only pretend to, in order to give special status to their own subjective morals. Your morals have no more special status than mine, so you should stop pretending otherwise.
You seem to consistently make the same debate error; I argue that if moral subjectivism is true, then morality = personal preferences and your only available principle of justification is "because I feel like it". You counter, essentially, by stating that if subjectivism is true (whereas you say the objectivist is "falsely declaring" or "pretending", which establishes a subjectivist point of view assumption) then, you argue, objectivists are factually doing the same thing as subjectivists. Well, of course, if subjectivism is true, objectivists would be factually doing the same thing as subjectivists while calling it something else. Conversely, if objectivism is true, subjectivists would be factually doing the same thing as objectivists while calling it something else.
The problem is that you can’t change this by falsely declaring that your own particular morals are somehow known to be objectively true.
Once again, you are making a categorical mistake in your response by assuming morality **is** subjective in nature. I'm not "declaring" any such thing. However, you have agreed here that personal preference and morality, under subjectivism, are indeed categorically the same. IF morality is subjective, this is necessarily true (logically speaking, not physical fact speaking). IF morality is objective in nature, then morality necessarily refers to something beyond personal preference, whether or not the process of discerning them is difficult and prone to error and personal interpretation.
I feel certain that it is still wrong [forcing people to eat vanilla ice cream even if you feel really, really strongly about it.- WMJ] Don’t you?
And here you have demonstrated the logical problem under subjectivism: you have contradicted yourself. If there is no categorical difference between personal preference and morality, then all morality can be is a set of very strongly felt personal preferences. IOW, "what is morally right to do" = "very strongly felt personal preferences". Yet, here you explicitly implicate a categorical difference, where even if something is a very strongly felt personal preference of the rightness of an act, it can still be immoral. IOW, if "rightness" = strongly felt personal preferences, then a stronglly felt personal preference cannot be wrong, because it is the very definition of "what is right" under moral subjectivism. You cannot have it both ways, either "what is right to do" is defined as "strongly felt personal preference", or something else, outside of the category of "strongly felt personal personal preference", defines what is and is not moral to do.
You can say that, but it reveals a lack of understanding (and introspection) on your part regarding the nature of moral sentiments in human beings.
Perhaps, but you make no such rational case here. Claiming that your moral sentiments can be logically separated from the principle of "because I feel like it", which is the principle behind all other actions based on personal preference (and the only justification necessary), seems to me to be a logically impossible task under moral subjectivism.
The important point, however, is that if this is what a subjectivist’s justification is, then as an objectivist, your ultimate moral justification and right stems from “because I feel like it, and not only that, but I pretend that my way is objectively correct!”.
Entirely untrue. You are equivocating what are two very different things under each premise by using the same term. Under subjectivism, one's moral "feelings" are assumed to be entirely subjective personal preferences. Under objectivism, moral "feelings" are assumed to represent a sensory capacity where an objective commodity is being sensed. So, while you can phrase it as "both people are acting according to their feelings", under the two premises the term "feelings" represent two categorically different things. Both are nothing more than assumptions, neither of us know which theory is factual (if either). The question is, which principle can morally justify intervening in the affairs of others? Because I personally prefer it, or because I sense the objective wrongness of your act? Even if one is in error about what they sense to be objectively wrong, their action is still logically justifiable; how does one justify forcing their personal preferences on others because they feel strongly about it? As you have agreed, you cannot - it is morally wrong to force one's personal preferences on others just because one feels strongly about it. But, categorically, logically, that is all the moral subjectivist has to justify their behavior. Moral objectivism doesn't make one's actions moral,or even moral moral, in actuality, than any moral subjectivist; it just provides a sound logical framework that logically allows their moral behavior to be justifiable according to some principle other than "because I feel like it", which is morally unacceptable. If you agree that "because I feel like it" or "because I strongly prefer it" are not suitable foundational principles for any morality, then make your case about what other principle is available - ultimately - under moral subjectivism.William J Murray
January 28, 2015
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If its wrong for you but not for me who is right RdFish?Andre
January 28, 2015
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As I said in the other thread, there is confusion here: Everyone has a moral standard, either one’s self or something else outside of one’s self. Subjectivists stop being subjectivists the moment they attempt to impose their morality on others, because regardless of what they say, when they do so they implicitly (or explicitly) declare their own morality to be objectively superior to the person they attempt to correct. A thorough-going subjectivist would never attempt to correct the behavior of others. You are confusing the subjective nature of moral standards with the absence of moral standards altogether. In fact the opposite is true: there are as many moral standards as there a people. If you drill deep enough down, you will always find points of disagreement about moral issues between any two people. No two people agree 100% about absolutely everything. This is prima facie evidence against morality being objective. 'Correcting the behaviours of others' is what morality is about. Regardless if it is subjective or objective, the concept of morality is about the desire to promote acts that one regards as good, and to prevent acts that one regards as bad. A thorough going subjectivist, just like every other person in the world, will indeed try to correct the behaviour of others when it violates his moral standard. Try to understand this simple fact: a standard does not have to be objective to be useful to the person employing it. fGfaded_Glory
January 28, 2015
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Hi Andre, You are playing with definitions instead of comprehending the issue. You should understand this by now: If by "wrong" you mean what I perceive as wrong, then rape is wrong. If by "wrong" you mean what human beings normally perceive as wrong, then rape is wrong. If by "wrong" you mean what YOU perceive as "wrong", then only you can answer your question. If by "wrong" you mean "wrong according to some objective standard" then no, there is no such thing as an objective standard for morality (or at least no objective way for anyone to discover it). Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 28, 2015
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RDFish If it is subjective and I permit rape in my moral code is it wrong?Andre
January 28, 2015
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Hi Andre, Your moral code is subjective. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 27, 2015
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RDFISH It is not about who's moral code is better, if subjective morality is true then it means there is no good or bad, whatever we feel about anything is just a personal opinion, under subjective morality you can't condemn my act as morally wrong when I rape you, because that is just your personal opinion on the matter and has absolutely no bearing on my moral code which is of course different than yours because my moral code permits rape! Since each person's moral code is deemed good for himself others can not call it evil, bad or wrong, it just is!Andre
January 27, 2015
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Torturning puppies can be a perfectly morally good action under subjectivism.
Just out of curiosity: can it be a perfectly moral (or morally neutral) action under (your preferred version of) objectivism?Piotr
January 27, 2015
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Hi William J Murray,
Since neither of us know if morality is objective or subjective in nature, neither of us are “pretending” unless our actual behavior is inconsistent with our stated beliefs.
What I mean is this: You don't know that morality is objective (which you just conceded), so it is disingenuous to argue that objective morality is superior, or that you adhere to objective morality. These claims can't be true if you don't even know if objective morality exists, which is why I say you are pretending.
If you believe morality is individually subjective, then you are pretending that your morality applies to others if you attempt to stop them from doing that which you consider immoral.
I attempt to convince people to adhere to my moral sense, and they attempt the same with me. I don't pretend that there is some objective standard that applies to both of us - only objectivists do that.
However, if the objectivist attempts to stop them, there is no “pretending” going on; his actions are consilient with his beliefs.
The subjectivist is entirely consistent, holding that there is no objective moral standard, acting in a manner consistent with their own moral sense, and attempting to force others to do the same (without pretending that others are bound by some objective moral code). The objectivist position is nothing but pretense, acting as though there is some objective moral code that they are privy to, and judging everybody else as morally inferior because they don't buy into this pretense, all the while knowing that there is no way for them to objectively ascertain that their moral code is any more objective than anyone else's.
Under ojectivism one has the natural right and obligation in certain situations to intervene;...
No, objectivists have no more right to impose their views than anyone else does. They only pretend to, in order to give special status to their own subjective morals. Your morals have no more special status than mine, so you should stop pretending otherwise.
The problem is that under subjectivism the two are the same thing in principle.
The problem is that you can't change this by falsely declaring that your own particular morals are somehow known to be objectively true.
Is it morally acceptable to force people to eat vanilla ice cream, if you could do so?
I don't think so. Do you?
What if you felt really, really strongly about it?
I feel certain that it is still wrong. Don't you?
Therefore, as a subjectivist, your ultimate moral justification and right must logically stem from “because I feel like it”.
You can say that, but it reveals a lack of understanding (and introspection) on your part regarding the nature of moral sentiments in human beings. The important point, however, is that if this is what a subjectivist's justification is, then as an objectivist, your ultimate moral justification and right stems from "because I feel like it, and not only that, but I pretend that my way is objectively correct!". Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 27, 2015
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Seems to me that the average subjectivist don't really understand their own position, when you don't like the torture of babies as a subjectivist, it is just your opinion that its wrong, it does not make it wrong. It also has nothing to do with your morals, in a subjective world there are no morals to speak of because they can not be justified in any way at all, it is and will always just be your very own opinion on the matter not on the facts.Andre
January 27, 2015
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RDFish said:
I don’t care what flavor ice cream other people eat. I do, however, care very much that people not act immorally.
The problem is that under subjectivism the two are the same thing in principle. Is it morally acceptable to force people to eat vanilla ice cream, if you could do so? What if you felt really, really strongly about it? That's the equivocation generated by your misuse of the terms "personal preference" and "morality" as if they referred to two categorically different things under subjectivism, when they do not. They are not different in kind under subjectivism, but only different in degree. Therefore, as a subjectivist, your ultimate moral justification and right must logically stem from "because I feel like it".William J Murray
January 27, 2015
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RDFish said:
You impose your subjective morality on me, and I do the same to you. That’s how it works. Pretending that your morality is objective, and thus superior, doesn’t help.
Since neither of us know if morality is objective or subjective in nature, neither of us are "pretending" unless our actual behavior is inconsistent with our stated beliefs. If you believe morality is individually subjective, then you are pretending that your morality applies to others if you attempt to stop them from doing that which you consider immoral. However, if the objectivist attempts to stop them, there is no "pretending" going on; his actions are consilient with his beliefs. Under ojectivism one has the natural right and obligation in certain situations to intervene; what principle justifies such interventions under moral subjectivism?William J Murray
January 27, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
You’re turning to a kind of moral outrage here. Your own system, however, permits anyone to say that torture is a morally good act. Within subjectivism, you have to accept that.
This is completely confused. My moral system does not permit anyone to do anything. Rather, it observes that morality is subjective. You pretend that your morality is objective, but it isn't.
It’s a morally good act for anyone who declares it to be so.
Who thinks that? Certainly not me. You still don't understand this simple idea. If somebody said they perceived the sky as orange, would you be bound to agree they are correct?
That’s what should be terrifying to you.
No, it's really the fact that without a god telling you not to, you might well think that torturing puppies is a good thing to do. That is completely repugnant to me.
We can reference some objective facts and measurements (wavelengths of light reaching our eyes) to state that the sky is blue.
I think you are wrong in three ways. First, there are all sorts of objective facts that determine which acts people consider immoral. There is a huge literature of descriptive ethics that is concerned with cataloguing such facts. Second, light wavelengths do not actually determine color perception - the brain uses lots of other information and complex processing to perceive color. We use lots of different information and complex processing to make moral determinations too. Sometimes it is more straightforward to perceive color - for example, when presented with a monochromatic light against a neutral background. Sometimes it is more straightforward to perceive morality - for example, when presented with someone who is torturing a puppy for enjoyment. Other times color perception is much more complex, and we may be unsure or inconsistent about the colors we see. And other times moral perception is much more complex, and we may be unsure or inconsistent about what we think the moral action is. Third, even if we understood all the objective facts that determined color perception, we would have no explanation for why some particular set of stimuli gives rise so some particular phenomenological experience of color. We have no understanding of why a pure 475nm light stimulus is perceived as blue (and of course you may experience something different me from when you see "blue"). We also have no explanation for why I find torturing puppies to be morally reprehensible. Both of these are brute facts about our subjective perceptions. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 27, 2015
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Hi Phinehas,
I believe you. But your answer is not logically consistent with subjectivism. As Mike points out, you are implicitly (or explicitly) declaring that your own morality is objectively superior to theirs. (And everyone here agrees with you!)
I am a subjectivist, which means I believe nobody's morality is objectively superior to any other morality. It is the objectivist who pretends that there is some sort of magical (and apparently secret) method for determining what morality is objectively true, and then decides that their faux-objective morality is the objectively superior one!
Note the difference in your position on this as opposed to how you might feel about truly subjective beliefs, like what flavor of ice cream tastes better. It would be ludicrous to suppose that, because you prefer vanilla ice cream, those who prefer chocolate are evil.
That is a complete non-sequitor! I think those who prefer chocolate have different preferences in ice cream, not that they are evil. I think people who look at puppy-torture and say it is moral are evil, by which I mean that I perceive them to be immoral.
Nor would you ever consider imposing your subjective beliefs about ice cream on others such that you would use force to compel them to eat only your preferred flavor. Why not? Because you know that your perspective on ice cream is not objectively superior to theirs.
I don't care what flavor ice cream other people eat. I do, however, care very much that people not act immorally. I do not choose to care - it is not a voluntary choice. I cannot choose not to care. Could you simply choose not to care about people doing terrible things to other people? Of course you couldn't. How can you not understand this? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 27, 2015
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