Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Moral Viewpoints Matter

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Those of us who argue that morality is grounded in a transcendent, objective standard often use extreme cases to demonstrate our point. We argue, for example, that in no conceivable universe would torturing an infant for personal pleasure be considered anything other than an unmitigated evil. Since there is at least one self-evidently moral truth that transcends all places, times, circumstances and contexts, the objectivity of morality is demonstrated.

The other day frequent commenter Learned Hand stated that “[Subjectiviests are] very much like [objectivists], in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.”

The objectivist response to LH is two-fold. On the one hand, we say that it is entirely obvious and unsurprising that subjectivists feel powerfully about their moral beliefs. After all, subjectivists’ moral beliefs are grounded in the objective reality of a transcendent moral standard just like everyone else’s (even though subjectivists deny that this is so). Far from asserting that subjectivists are amoral monsters, objectivists absolutely insist that any given subjectivist can be as sensitive (or even perhaps in some instances more sensitive) to the demands of the objective moral law as an objectivists. Subjectivists, like everyone else, know that (and always behave as if) torturing an infant for personal pleasure is objectively wrong. Which, of course, is why the rest of LH’s rant in the linked comment is not only mean spirited, it is also blithering nonsense.

On the other hand, objectivists also argue that the subjectivist argument that they feel their morality just as powerfully as objectivists is patently false given their own premises. One group of people believe that morals are based on an objective, transcendent moral standard binding on all people at all times; another group of people take Will Provine seriously when he says no ultimate foundation for ethics exists. Certainly the responses of individuals within the group will vary. But can there be any doubt that people who believe morality is based on something real will, at the margin, feel more strongly about their moral commitments than people who believe their moral commitments are, ultimately, based on nothing at all? Can you imagine a moral objectivist insisting that we should not “judge” Aztec human sacrifice by our current cultural standards, as I once saw a curator of a museum here in Denver do?

Of course, the key to this analysis is the phrase “at the margin.” All decisions are made at the margin, and that is why when it comes down to the actual practical differences in the behavior of subjectivists and objectivists, examples from the poles are unhelpful, because the behavior of both groups will be practically identical.  But is there really a difference in behavior at the margin? As I argued above, simple logic dictates that we should expect a difference in behavior at the margin. But do we have any concrete examples? I believe we do. It is called American jurisprudence.

As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of law began with the publication in 1897 of The Path of the Law by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this groundbreaking article Holmes almost singlehandedly founded the school of “legal realism,” which gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal nihilism,” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judge’s rulings. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? Because, as Phillip Johnson has explained, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism,” and Holmes’ great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of naturalism. Truly Holmes’ ideas could be called “jurisprudential naturalism.” Thus began the modern era of what has come to be known as “judicial activism.”

What does all of this have to do with “morality at the margin”? The answer lies in the structure and history of the American Constitution. In the Federalist 79 Hamilton argued that judges would be restrained from judicial activism by their fear of impeachment:

The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They [federal judges] are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other.

For structural reasons (impeach requires a supermajority in the Senate), political reasons (super majorities necessary for impeachment are impossible if even a significant minority of the Senate agrees with the results of the judicial activism), and historical reasons (Jefferson’s failed use of the impeachment process to check the judiciary weighed very heavily against subsequent attempts), Hamilton turned out to be wrong.

If judges cannot be checked effectively by fear of impeachment when they abuse their office, what does check their power? Just this: Judges take an oath of office to uphold the constitution, and the only practical check on their power is individual judge’s moral commitment to that oath. And it is here that the difference between subjectivist and objectivist commitments to morality have plain effects at the margin.

Every time a judge makes a ruling (especially in the area of constitutional law), there is a temptation. Suppose a judge has a powerfully felt commitment to a particular policy (it does not matter what the policy preference is). Suppose further that the text, structure and history of the constitution provides no warrant for elevating that policy preference to the status of constitutional imperative. If there is no effective political check on his power, what is to stop the judge from nevertheless falsely ruling that the constitution does indeed elevate his policy preference to constitutional imperative? Again, nothing but his moral commitment to his oath. This is especially true for Supreme Court judges whose rulings are not subject to further review.

Which group of judges has the stronger moral commitment?  Based on a host of data, it is certainly the case that political liberals are far more likely to be areligious. Further, areligious people are far more likely than religious people to be moral subjectivists. Therefore, we can conclude that liberal judges are more likely to be moral subjectivists. Is it any wonder then that the vast majority of cases of judicial activism come down on the side most amenable to political liberals? Indeed, while I will be the first to admit that there have been a few rare cases of conservative activism, judicial activism is overwhelming seen as a phenomenon of the left. Conservative judges view their project as essentially a moral project. Liberal judges see their project as, in Justice White’s famous phrase, the raw exercise of power. It cannot be reasonably disputed that liberal judges (whom we can conclude have a largely subjectivist moral viewpoint) do not have as strong a moral commitment to their oath. And that, Learned Hand, is why it matters.

Comments
Hi Mike1962,
But it doesn’t change the reality of the situation: subjectivists stop being subjectivists the moment they attempt to impose their morality on others.
Why can't I attempt to impose my morality on others AND reject your claim that your morality is objective to mine? I can, and do, just that. You impose your subjective morality on me, and I do the same to you. That's how it works. Pretending that your morality is objective, and thus superior, doesn't help.
I like what Barry asked several months ago… Is torturing babies objectively dead-ass-wrong or not? The answer tells us a lot about a person.
The fact that someone would choose to torture babies if their god failed to tell them not to says a lot about them. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
08:12 PM
8
08
12
PM
PDT
Piotr: So Stalin and Hitler were objectivists, right?
I don't know what they called themselves, but they sure acted like objectivists. With themselves at the center of their moral system.mike1962
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
06:41 PM
6
06
41
PM
PDT
Phinehas, How do you distinguish someone whose morality is objectively superior from someone who only thinks so?Piotr
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
04:00 PM
4
04
00
PM
PDT
Piotr:
So Stalin and Hitler were objectivists, right?
To the extent that Stalin and Hitler thought their morality was objectively superior, they certainly were not being logically consistent with subjectivism. That doesn't make their morality right, of course.
Or would you argue that they didn’t try to impose their moral values on others?
I might argue that they were more concerned with imposing their will on others and that their moral values went no deeper than "might makes right."Phinehas
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
RDF
I think it is morally wrong for you to torture puppies, just as clearly as I think the sky is blue (another subjective perception).
We can reference some objective facts and measurements (wavelengths of light reaching our eyes) to state that the sky is blue. This doesn't work for moral values. What measurements can we offer to explain why an act is good or evil?Silver Asiatic
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
RDFish mike1962 and Phinehas answered you well already. I'll add a point ...
Well, this is pretty terrifying actually.
You're turning to a kind of moral outrage here. Your own system, however, permits anyone to say that torture is a morally good act. Within subjectivism, you have to accept that. It's a morally good act for anyone who declares it to be so. That's what should be terrifying to you.Silver Asiatic
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
mike1962 ... subjectivists stop being subjectivists the moment they attempt to impose their morality on others I see. So Stalin and Hitler were objectivists, right? Or would you argue that they didn't try to impose their moral values on others?Piotr
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
12:59 PM
12
12
59
PM
PDT
RDF:
SA: No human action is good or evil in itself, in the subjectivist view. Terrorism, rape, torture, genocide – these are all potentially morally good acts in subjectivism.
RDF: No, they aren’t. They apparently are potentially morally good acts for you, but not for me, and not for anyone else I know.
I believe you. But your answer is not logically consistent with subjectivism. As Mike points out, you are implicitly (or explicitly) declaring that your own morality is objectively superior to theirs. (And everyone here agrees with you!) Note the difference in your position on this as opposed to how you might feel about truly subjective beliefs, like what flavor of ice cream tastes better. It would be ludicrous to suppose that, because you prefer vanilla ice cream, those who prefer chocolate are evil. Nor would you ever consider imposing your subjective beliefs about ice cream on others such that you would use force to compel them to eat only your preferred flavor. Why not? Because you know that your perspective on ice cream is not objectively superior to theirs. This is what real subjectivism feels like, and what you are describing (and what we all understand, because we experience it every day) is so not that.Phinehas
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
12:57 PM
12
12
57
PM
PDT
I like what Barry asked several months ago... Is torturing babies objectively dead-ass-wrong or not? The answer tells us a lot about a person.mike1962
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
12:54 PM
12
12
54
PM
PDT
RDFish: Well, this is pretty terrifying actually. I will tell you straight out: There is nothing that could convince me that torturing puppies was not morally reprehensible, and I most certainly would be utterly unable to convince myself of that.
We understand. And I'm quite sure Silver Asiatic does. And you can even stomp your feet while you proclaim it. But it doesn't change the reality of the situation: subjectivists stop being subjectivists the moment they attempt to impose their morality on others. Do you keep your subjective morality to yourself? Or do you (in any way whatsoever) attempt to control others based on your subjective morality?mike1962
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
Hi Silver Asiatic,
RDF: Again, we don’t decide to be repulsed by puppy-torture. Could you decide otherwise? SA: If I was an atheist, it wouldn’t matter. I could convince myself that repulsion was necessary. I could convince myself that torture was good. There might even be good consequences to that kind of thing. A person with hatred against dogs, for example, might feel it’s morally good to torture puppies.
Well, this is pretty terrifying actually. I will tell you straight out: There is nothing that could convince me that torturing puppies was not morally reprehensible, and I most certainly would be utterly unable to convince myself of that. You seem to be saying that the only reason you refrain from such activities is because you think there is a god who would disapprove of you for doing so. This certainly explains our differing views on the subject of morality. I wonder how many other people here would torture puppies if they thought they there was no divine prohibition against it. (And by the way, where exactly is the prohibition against torturing puppies laid out in religious scripture?)
Without further clarification, you seem to be using a norm based on what the majority of the population thinks.
I've already clarified this. The majority/norm has nothing to do with subjective moral sense; it is descriptive rather than prescriptive. I mentioned it because it people mistakenly take our moral consensus as evidence that morality is objective. It is obviously important for society that individuals' moral sentiments align, which by and large they do.
A subjectivist cannot say that subjective moral choices that others make are morally wrong.
Nonsense. I think it is morally wrong for you to torture puppies, just as clearly as I think the sky is blue (another subjective perception). Do you not think the sky is blue? If you say the sky is orange and I tell you that you're wrong, do you accuse me of inconsistency?
No human action is good or evil in itself, in the subjectivist view. Terrorism, rape, torture, genocide – these are all potentially morally good acts in subjectivism.
No, they aren't. They apparently are potentially morally good acts for you, but not for me, and not for anyone else I know. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PDT
mike1962
Subjectivists stop being subjectivists the moment they attempt to impose their morality on others, because regardless of what they say, when they do so they implicitly (or explicitly) declare their own morality to be objectively superior to the person they attempt to correct. A thorough-going subjectivist would never attempt to correct the behavior of others.
True. A subjectivist cannot say that subjective moral choices that others make are morally wrong. No human action is good or evil in itself, in the subjectivist view. Terrorism, rape, torture, genocide - these are all potentially morally good acts in subjectivism. Dictators committing genocide are acting in a morally good way according to their own subjective morality. A subjectivist has to recognize those acts as morally good within subjectivism.Silver Asiatic
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
06:08 AM
6
06
08
AM
PDT
Everyone has a moral standard, either one's self or something else outside of one's self. Subjectivists stop being subjectivists the moment they attempt to impose their morality on others, because regardless of what they say, when they do so they implicitly (or explicitly) declare their own morality to be objectively superior to the person they attempt to correct. A thorough-going subjectivist would never attempt to correct the behavior of others.mike1962
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
05:48 AM
5
05
48
AM
PDT
faded glory
Look, I understand where you are coming from: you think it would only be fair that if I allow myself to be ruled by my subjective morals, I should allow others to do the same. The thing is, there is no objective reason for this. That you think it would be fair is no reason that I should think that too.
Notice, I said nothing about being fair. It's simply a case of how you determine what is morally good or bad. When you seek to repress behavior in others, you're claiming that the behavior is morally bad. But the behavior is not morally bad for them - it's good. So, we have just what I said. You would try to stop behavior that is morally good for people.
In actual fact, I do allow people to live according to their own morals unless their actions go contrary to mine, in which case I disapprove of them and want them to stop. This is no different from what anybody else does.
No, it's not because you're stopping behavior that is morally good by your own standard. By subjectivism, you cannot say that behaviors others are doing are morally bad. They're bad for you, but you're not doing them. Those behaviors are morally good for the people who are doing them - based on your own standard, subjectivism. So, you would repress morally good behaviors in others, but not for yourself. You would put someone in jail for a behavior that your moral code says is morally good. That's inconsisent.Silver Asiatic
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
05:33 AM
5
05
33
AM
PDT
RDFish
What I’ve been pointing out is that subjective morality does not actually work that way – it is not a voluntary choice at all, so while the subjectivist may say “I choose…”, in reality none of us actually choose our moral sentiments any more than we choose to feel pain upon injury, or choose to perceive the sky is blue.
Ok, I don't see any evidence that what you describe is true. On the contrary, I've changed my moral views several times in my life -- and these changes were deliberate choices, in some cases, going against my intuitive or instinctual attitude. I conformed myself to an objective standard that I believe has the authority to determine mortal teachings. So, for myself, a moral code was a choice and individual acts were also choices.
Again, we don’t decide to be repulsed by puppy-torture. Could you decide otherwise?
If I was an atheist, it wouldn't matter. I could convince myself that repulsion was necessary. I could convince myself that torture was good. There might even be good consequences to that kind of thing. A person with hatred against dogs, for example, might feel it's morally good to torture puppies.
Only in a tiny fraction of humans is this the case, just as in a tiny fraction of humans the sky is not blue and gout is not painful.
The number of people who believe such a thing is totally irrelevant within subjectivism, as we agreed. When you appeal to the majority, you're looking at another moral standard. When you appeal to something like torturing puppies, you're pointing to a moral norm that goes beyond what subjectivism can offer. Without further clarification, you seem to be using a norm based on what the majority of the population thinks.Silver Asiatic
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
05:27 AM
5
05
27
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Then you would have: It is morally bad for me to allow others to do things which are morally good for them. Not necessarily. Look, I understand where you are coming from: you think it would only be fair that if I allow myself to be ruled by my subjective morals, I should allow others to do the same. The thing is, there is no objective reason for this. That you think it would be fair is no reason that I should think that too. In actual fact, I do allow people to live according to their own morals unless their actions go contrary to mine, in which case I disapprove of them and want them to stop. This is no different from what anybody else does. fGfaded_Glory
January 27, 2015
January
01
Jan
27
27
2015
12:34 AM
12
12
34
AM
PDT
Hi mike1962,
You can contemplate absolute morality because morality is a real thing and absoluteness is a real property.
If you'd like to argue that any concept we can imagine (and articulate!) is real, go ahead (I think you're mistaken but it's a long debate). However, even if I grant you that "absolute" is a "real property" and "morality" is a "real thing", that doesn't mean that morality is absolute (or objective, which is the question at hand). * * * So far I haven't received any good counter-arguments here. SA and mrchristo don't seem to understand that subjectivism is not voluntaristic, nor that subjectivistic language is consistent with its meaning. Mike1962 argued that anything we can imagine must be real, which is clearly not the case. Can anyone actually explain how any moral code can be shown to be objectively true? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
06:08 PM
6
06
08
PM
PDT
RDFish: Anyway, the fact that we can contemplate objective morality doesn’t mean that such a thing exists of course (I can contemplate talking onions).
You can contemplate talking onions because talking is a real action and onions are real things. You can contemplate absolute morality because morality is a real thing and absoluteness is a real property. Neither combinations may be real, but how is it that you can contemplate an absolute anything? We know, we know, you don't know the answer. Just food for thought.mike1962
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
05:49 PM
5
05
49
PM
PDT
Hi Silver Asiatic,
Notice how you switched that. It should be the case that one could not say “everyone feels pain in gout”. Or better, “if you don’t feel pain with gout you’re wrong.”
There are lots of differences between our sense of pain and our moral sense - I didn't mean that they were the same thing. My point is that we can talk to each about our subjective perceptions without qualification as though they were universal truths, and we do this all the time.
RDF: Torturing puppies is wrong because the vast majority of people experience moral repugnance at such an act (even though a small minority of abnormal people experience it differently). SA: This is not subjective morality since it references an external, objective value.
Yes, sorry - I wasn't clear. The previous sentence spoke about how we speak about morality, not the grounding of normative ethics. In subjectivism torturing puppies is wrong when someone feels that is wrong, not because others do. We speak as though everyone feels the same about this, even though that is not always the case.
Subjective morality means that the reason for an act comes from the individual, not from the group or the majority.
Yes, that is correct.
The subjectivist may say “I choose the morality of the popular vote” but only for a personal reason and there is no reason why that must be recognized as a standard or a better or worse value than the supposed ‘abnormal’ person.
What I've been pointing out is that subjective morality does not actually work that way - it is not a voluntary choice at all, so while the subjectivist may say "I choose...", in reality none of us actually choose our moral sentiments any more than we choose to feel pain upon injury, or choose to perceive the sky is blue.
There is no ‘normal’ in subjective morality...
There is no "normal" in anything, really :-)
– only what the individual decides.
Again, we don't decide to be repulsed by puppy-torture. Could you decide otherwise?
Torturning puppies can be a perfectly morally good action under subjectivism.
Only in a tiny fraction of humans is this the case, just as in a tiny fraction of humans the sky is not blue and gout is not painful. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
10:58 AM
10
10
58
AM
PDT
FG
I allow and promote things which are morally good for me. I deny and try to stop things which are morally bad for me. Consistent.
Then you would have: It is morally bad for me to allow others to do things which are morally good for them. So it follows ... I have a moral obligation to stop people from doing things that are morally good for them.Silver Asiatic
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
10:50 AM
10
10
50
AM
PDT
Hi mike1962, Yes we can imagine all sorts of things. I can't explain our ability to imagine anything, and nobody else can either (we do not understand how our brains work). I don't think this has anything to do with moral objectivism. Regarding machines, there is another thread where I talk about thinking machines - "What Jerry Coyne Doesn't Get About Goodness". That doesn't have anything obvious to do with moral objectivism either. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
10:48 AM
10
10
48
AM
PDT
SA: The subjectivist cannot tell others their behavior is simply ‘wrong’ since it may be morally right for another subjectivist. RDF: In that case, one could not say “gout is painful”, Notice how you switched that. It should be the case that one could not say "everyone feels pain in gout". Or better, "if you don't feel pain with gout you're wrong."
Torturing puppies is wrong because the vast majority of people experience moral repugnance at such an act (even though a small minority of abnormal people experience it differently).
This is not subjective morality since it references an external, objective value. Subjective morality means that the reason for an act comes from the individual, not from the group or the majority. The subjectivist may say "I choose the morality of the popular vote" but only for a personal reason and there is no reason why that must be recognized as a standard or a better or worse value than the supposed 'abnormal' person. There is no 'normal' in subjective morality - only what the individual decides. Something may happen to correspond to the popular idea, but that is irrelevant to the value of the moral decision. Torturning puppies can be a perfectly morally good action under subjectivism.Silver Asiatic
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
10:45 AM
10
10
45
AM
PDT
RDFish: Anyway, the fact that we can contemplate objective morality doesn’t mean that such a thing exists.
However, the fact that we can contemplate it means the idea of an objective morality exists in human minds. How do you explain that? And is it possible for a machine to ever have such an idea?mike1962
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: This is an inconsistent standard of morality: I allow and promote things which are morally good for me. I deny and try to stop things which are morally good for others. Try this: I allow and promote things which are morally good for me. I deny and try to stop things which are morally bad for me. Consistent. fGfaded_Glory
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
09:22 AM
9
09
22
AM
PDT
Hi Silver Asiatic,
The subjectivist cannot tell others their behavior is simply ‘wrong’ since it may be morally right for another subjectivist.
In that case, one could not say "gout is painful", because some people experience no pain when they have gout. We also could not say "the sky is blue", because some people do not see the sky as being blue. Yet of course we do say this, because the vast majority of people do experience gout as painful and the sky as blue. (We tend to say that normally people perceive these things this way). Likewise with morality: Torturing puppies is wrong because the vast majority of people experience moral repugnance at such an act (even though a small minority of abnormal people experience it differently). All of these perceptions are subjective, but there is no inconsistency talking about them without constantly mentioning that. Now that we've cleared that up, the question remains: What is it that you think can make your (or any) morality objective? As I've argued @107, there is no method with which to establish some particular moral code as being objectively true. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
mrchristo: If I was a moral subjectivist then I would be inconsistent telling others that their behaviour is wrong, faded_Glory
Subjectivists claim that there exists no standard of morality outside of individual people’s minds. When they say ‘this action is wrong’, they indicate that the action violates their standard of right and wrong and that they want it to stop. Where is the inconsistency in this?
The subjectivist cannot tell others their behavior is simply 'wrong' since it may be morally right for another subjectivist. They can only say 'it is wrong according to my standard which 'exists only in my individual mind'. Applying a personal, subjective standard - known only to the individual, to anyone else is inconsistent. The subjectivist cannot say 'this action is wrong for me and must be wrong for everyone else'. The subjectivst can say 'I want to stop everyone from doing this thing which they may consider to be morally good'. This is an inconsistent standard of morality: I allow and promote things which are morally good for me. I deny and try to stop things which are morally good for others.Silver Asiatic
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PDT
mrchristo: If I was a moral subjectivist then I would be inconsistent telling others that their behaviour is wrong, However you are the inconsistent subjectivist so that is a problem for you. Why would that be? Subjectivists claim that there exists no standard of morality outside of individual people's minds. When they say 'this action is wrong', they indicate that the action violates their standard of right and wrong and that they want it to stop. Where is the inconsistency in this? fGfaded_Glory
January 26, 2015
January
01
Jan
26
26
2015
12:30 AM
12
12
30
AM
PDT
Hi mike1962,
Objectivists (small O) point the fact that we have a moral sense at all and have the luxury of debating the particulars.
Subjectivists (case insensitive) point out the exact same fact.
Will a machine ever be able to do that?
Depends on what you mean by "machine". Anyway, the fact that we can contemplate objective morality doesn't mean that such a thing exists of course (I can contemplate talking onions). But the more important question: What reason can you give to believe that some particular moral fact is objective? Anyone? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 25, 2015
January
01
Jan
25
25
2015
09:26 PM
9
09
26
PM
PDT
RDFish: Moral subjectivists acknowledge that there is no epistemological foundation for declaring their own moral sentiments to be objectively true statements about the world independent of human perceptions, while objectivists do not acknowledge this.
It's a bit more complicated that than. Objectivists (small O) point the fact that we have a moral sense at all and have the luxury of debating the particulars. That we have a moral sense at all, and the ability to contemplate an absolute morality, is a clue to meaning in the universe. Will a machine ever be able to do that?mike1962
January 25, 2015
January
01
Jan
25
25
2015
07:16 PM
7
07
16
PM
PDT
mrchristo: Your post is long winded and goes off on a tangent so am just dealing with the relevant points. RDFish: That is merely your subjective opinion, and yet you state it as objective fact. Mung: It's your subjective opinion, therefore it cannot be true. QED. The opinion that it's merely your subjective opinion though, now that is fact, Fact, FACT! It's OBJECTIVE! /absurdMung
January 25, 2015
January
01
Jan
25
25
2015
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 7

Leave a Reply