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Moral Viewpoints Matter

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Those of us who argue that morality is grounded in a transcendent, objective standard often use extreme cases to demonstrate our point. We argue, for example, that in no conceivable universe would torturing an infant for personal pleasure be considered anything other than an unmitigated evil. Since there is at least one self-evidently moral truth that transcends all places, times, circumstances and contexts, the objectivity of morality is demonstrated.

The other day frequent commenter Learned Hand stated that “[Subjectiviests are] very much like [objectivists], in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.”

The objectivist response to LH is two-fold. On the one hand, we say that it is entirely obvious and unsurprising that subjectivists feel powerfully about their moral beliefs. After all, subjectivists’ moral beliefs are grounded in the objective reality of a transcendent moral standard just like everyone else’s (even though subjectivists deny that this is so). Far from asserting that subjectivists are amoral monsters, objectivists absolutely insist that any given subjectivist can be as sensitive (or even perhaps in some instances more sensitive) to the demands of the objective moral law as an objectivists. Subjectivists, like everyone else, know that (and always behave as if) torturing an infant for personal pleasure is objectively wrong. Which, of course, is why the rest of LH’s rant in the linked comment is not only mean spirited, it is also blithering nonsense.

On the other hand, objectivists also argue that the subjectivist argument that they feel their morality just as powerfully as objectivists is patently false given their own premises. One group of people believe that morals are based on an objective, transcendent moral standard binding on all people at all times; another group of people take Will Provine seriously when he says no ultimate foundation for ethics exists. Certainly the responses of individuals within the group will vary. But can there be any doubt that people who believe morality is based on something real will, at the margin, feel more strongly about their moral commitments than people who believe their moral commitments are, ultimately, based on nothing at all? Can you imagine a moral objectivist insisting that we should not “judge” Aztec human sacrifice by our current cultural standards, as I once saw a curator of a museum here in Denver do?

Of course, the key to this analysis is the phrase “at the margin.” All decisions are made at the margin, and that is why when it comes down to the actual practical differences in the behavior of subjectivists and objectivists, examples from the poles are unhelpful, because the behavior of both groups will be practically identical.  But is there really a difference in behavior at the margin? As I argued above, simple logic dictates that we should expect a difference in behavior at the margin. But do we have any concrete examples? I believe we do. It is called American jurisprudence.

As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of law began with the publication in 1897 of The Path of the Law by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this groundbreaking article Holmes almost singlehandedly founded the school of “legal realism,” which gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal nihilism,” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judge’s rulings. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? Because, as Phillip Johnson has explained, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism,” and Holmes’ great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of naturalism. Truly Holmes’ ideas could be called “jurisprudential naturalism.” Thus began the modern era of what has come to be known as “judicial activism.”

What does all of this have to do with “morality at the margin”? The answer lies in the structure and history of the American Constitution. In the Federalist 79 Hamilton argued that judges would be restrained from judicial activism by their fear of impeachment:

The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They [federal judges] are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other.

For structural reasons (impeach requires a supermajority in the Senate), political reasons (super majorities necessary for impeachment are impossible if even a significant minority of the Senate agrees with the results of the judicial activism), and historical reasons (Jefferson’s failed use of the impeachment process to check the judiciary weighed very heavily against subsequent attempts), Hamilton turned out to be wrong.

If judges cannot be checked effectively by fear of impeachment when they abuse their office, what does check their power? Just this: Judges take an oath of office to uphold the constitution, and the only practical check on their power is individual judge’s moral commitment to that oath. And it is here that the difference between subjectivist and objectivist commitments to morality have plain effects at the margin.

Every time a judge makes a ruling (especially in the area of constitutional law), there is a temptation. Suppose a judge has a powerfully felt commitment to a particular policy (it does not matter what the policy preference is). Suppose further that the text, structure and history of the constitution provides no warrant for elevating that policy preference to the status of constitutional imperative. If there is no effective political check on his power, what is to stop the judge from nevertheless falsely ruling that the constitution does indeed elevate his policy preference to constitutional imperative? Again, nothing but his moral commitment to his oath. This is especially true for Supreme Court judges whose rulings are not subject to further review.

Which group of judges has the stronger moral commitment?  Based on a host of data, it is certainly the case that political liberals are far more likely to be areligious. Further, areligious people are far more likely than religious people to be moral subjectivists. Therefore, we can conclude that liberal judges are more likely to be moral subjectivists. Is it any wonder then that the vast majority of cases of judicial activism come down on the side most amenable to political liberals? Indeed, while I will be the first to admit that there have been a few rare cases of conservative activism, judicial activism is overwhelming seen as a phenomenon of the left. Conservative judges view their project as essentially a moral project. Liberal judges see their project as, in Justice White’s famous phrase, the raw exercise of power. It cannot be reasonably disputed that liberal judges (whom we can conclude have a largely subjectivist moral viewpoint) do not have as strong a moral commitment to their oath. And that, Learned Hand, is why it matters.

Comments
I've tried to wade through many of the comments on this thread and have found some of the responses utterly confusing for a layman like myself. That being said, I was wondering if someone could maybe clear something up for me. Is the subjectivist moral standard, even if they claim to know objective right and wrong, still not the same as having one’s own personal language? And if the language (or moral standard for this matter) is personal, then who, outside the individual in question, could possibly claim its validity? I would be inclined to deduce that any subjectivist moral standard would become a game of, “he said she said.” Hopefully I haven’t confused anybody with the above questions.KRock
January 22, 2015
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Mark Frank
I thought we were talking about the meaning of morally wrong – then you quote an example which is clearly nothing to do with being morally wrong. What are you up to?
The point of the exercise is to show that when the word "wrong" is used, it always means with respect to an objective standard and never means anything else. Thus, the wrong place, wrong time, wrong size, wrong act, wrong answer, or wrong anything always means not right and objectively wrong. If we reverse the order of the words, nothing changes, as in morally wrong, mathematically wrong, strategically wrong etc. It should give you pause that I can present one example after another to support my point and no one can present an appropriate counter example.StephenB
January 22, 2015
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MF, is or is it not morally wrong or just plain wrong to kidnap, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child? KF Good god KF, you know he's going to say it is, and you know such things are as noxious to him as they are to you. What's the point of wallowing in slime like that?Learned Hand
January 22, 2015
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StephenB, I think we've cleaved the argument to the bone, as I said earlier--you've come to the point where you're just repeating that you know without error that moral standards are objective and what those standards are, while I'm battling the temptation to just repeat myself and call that position a solipsistic just-so story. I'll go back and look for productive points of discussion when I've got a chance; in the meantime, please let me know if there's something in particular you'd like me to respond to. Otherwise we might best just call this an effective conversation that revealed and emphasized our differences without resolving them.Learned Hand
January 22, 2015
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MF, is or is it not morally wrong or just plain wrong to kidnap, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child? KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2015
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SB
If the question is, “What is the capital of California?—then Sacramento is the right answer and Houston is the wrong answer.
I thought we were talking about the meaning of morally wrong - then you quote an example which is clearly nothing to do with being morally wrong. What are you up to?Mark Frank
January 22, 2015
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F/N: On first principles of right reason as paradigmatic objective truths. Consider a bright red ball on yon table, say, A. The ball is there, and it is distinct from the rest of things that are there. We see a world partition, on that distinction: { A | NOT_A } Immediately, we have LOI, A is A LNC, NOT( A AND NOT_A ) LEM, best put ( A X-OR NOT_A ) This is there, it is the basis for operating in a world where steak or soup are not strychnine or arsenic, where we must make distinctions to think or communicate and more. To recognise and submit to such is not arrogance or sheepish simple-minded docility to Aristotle or whoever, it is willingness to go with core, foundational truth. Self-evident truth that must hold on pain of patent absurdity. The danger lies in refusing to acknowledge same. Famously:
Isa 5:Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes . . . 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! [ESV]
And, on morals -- on an unfortunately real case -- it is self evidently wrong and evil to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and kill a young child. This is a case of self-evident moral truth, rejected or undermined on pain of revealing something seriously out of whack. But then, sadly, much is out of whack in our time. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2015
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Learned Hand
This is assuming your conclusion; for example, it assumes “the mark” is an objective mark.
Something is wrong because it fails to be right, which, by definition, is objective. The right answer doesn’t just seem right, it is right. If the question is, “What is the capital of California?—then Sacramento is the right answer and Houston is the wrong answer. I am not assuming my conclusion when I say that the mark, which is either hit or missed, is an objective mark. That should be obvious. Your subjective opinion about which city is the capital of California is irrelevant.
If someone tells me that the First Amendment is the most important amendment of the Constitution, I might say, “That’s wrong!” The opinions on both sides of that discussion are subjective.
I suppose that you could say that, but I think that, given the context, you would be misuing the word. A more accurate response would be, “I don’t agree.” Again, there can’t be a “wrong and incorrect” unless there is a “right and correct,” which would be possible only with a pre-established priority of amendments made explicit. Without that, there is no right to be wrong about.
My point, though, was that the dictionary does not distinguish between subjective and objective definitions in either its “malodorous” or “wrong” entries.
The dictionary does not tell us a lot of things that we should be able to figure out for ourselves. The dictionary does not tell us that wrong is a five letter word. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t.
It’s facile, therefore, to try to make hay out of the latter. It’s pettifogging.
It isn’t facile to state the obvious. “Wrong” means “not right.” Right means “on the mark.”
Your arguments assume that everyone who is not Stephen B is dishonest, insane, or oppressed to the point of being unable to access their basic human nature. (I’m assuming that basically everyone in the world disagrees with you as to at least one moral principle; I can’t prove that, but I think it’s a relatively safe assumption given my experience with human nature.) Your position essentially dehumanizes everyone who disagrees with you.
Well, I think you could make that case if I didn’t provide good reasons in support of my position. Indeed, you and many others misrepresent my position by saying things like, “Stephen’s morality” or “Stephen’s rules.” But I am speaking of the morality and the rules of reason. I didn’t invent the natural moral law, nor did I design reason’s rules. I just discovered them as Aristotle did over 2000 years ago. So when you associate these things we me, exclusively, you are really using a veiled ad-hominem argument, as in, Stephen is arrogating to himself the right to decide on what it means to be moral or Stephen is presuming to lecture us on reason’s rules. In fact, the very opposite is true. I submit to laws higher than myself while the subjectivists submit to nothing, arrogating unto themselves the right to decide what is right and wrong and which rules of reason they will selectively honor. Ask me about the subjectivists who claim that effects can occur without causes and who call me arrogant and rigid for insisting that it can’t be so.
I think it’s ultimately a form of self-aggrandizing solipsism, and extremely corrosive to the kind of back-and-forth discussion I think is a crucial part of moral and ethical human society.
You are simply sustaining the ad-hominem argument. It is common among subjectivists to become outraged when someone expresses confidence in an intellectual position about basic truths. That says more about them than it does about me. If someone has a strong case, he should argue it forcefully, especially when the ideas expressed in that argument have been suppressed by the academy, which is certainly the case with reason rules and the natural moral law. Indeed, my adversaries usually have nothing of any substance to say. They spend most of their time complaining about my intellectual “confidence,” as if it were impossible to know that some things are true and some things are false. It’s all part of a calculated dumbing down process. I have even been lampooned by subjectivists and relativists for saying something as obvious as “a thing cannot be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances.” That doesn’t make me arrogant; it makes them ignorant.
In my judgment, this kind of It’s not the end of the world, especially because at the end of the day you seem to behave like a subjectivist—you argue rather than simply telling us to search our feelings for our inner Stephen. But you do fall apart from time to time into convenient “just so” assertions.
Anyone who thinks that I argue like a subjectivist has not been paying attention. I don’t ever recall depending on a “just so” story. I am amazed how often my critics make wild generalized statements about me without providing a shred of evidence or even a hint about what they mean. I don’t usually discuss me; I discuss ideas, facts, and truths. You and many of your colleagues try to make it about me. In spite of the ad-hominems, though, which I can easily brush aside, I think this exchange has been one of your better efforts.
Having said that, as you said and I echo, I appreciate that you do try to have a substantive conversation.
And I also appreciate the fact that you confront the issues head on.
This is assuming that “wrong” is amenable to an objective standard. Your comparison is meaningless if we assume, arguendo, that “wrong” is always assessed according to a personal standard that can vary from actor to actor.
One of the reasons that I provided a specific example was to illuminate the principle. In order to provide a rational counter argument, you need to address the example. It is objectively true that Sacramento is the Capital of California and that Houston is not. The mark, or the fact, is objective. If you disagree, make your case. SB Thus, when Mark says that rape “is wrong,” he is making a factual claim about objective morality.
Except that you know that’s not what he means.
You bet I do. That’s what all the fuss is about.
Thanks for the conversation.
Me too, thanks. Stay comfortable.StephenB
January 22, 2015
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F/N: Let's go dictionary again: wrong (r??, r??) adj. 1. not in accordance with what is morally right or good: a wrong deed. 2. deviating from truth or fact; erroneous: a wrong answer. 3. not correct in action, judgment, opinion, etc., as a person; in error. 4. not proper or usual; not in accordance with rules or practice. 5. out of order; awry; amiss: Something is wrong with the machine. 6. not suitable or appropriate: the wrong shoes with that dress. 7. of or designating the side ordinarily kept inward or under: to wear a sweater wrong side out. n. 8. something improper or not in accordance with morality, goodness, or truth; evil. 9. an injustice. 10. Law. a. an invasion of another's right, resulting in that person's suffering or damage. b. a tort. adv. 11. in a wrong manner; not rightly; awry; amiss. v.t. 12. to do wrong to; treat unfairly or unjustly; harm. 13. to impute evil to (someone) unjustly; malign. Idioms: 1. go wrong, a. to go amiss; fail. b. to pursue an immoral course; become depraved: Bad friends caused him to go wrong. 2. in the wrong, to blame; in error: to be in the wrong without admitting it. [before 1100; Middle English wrong, wrang, late Old English wrang --> Notice, on balance, objectively so, not merely subjectively --> If you want to mean something else, get your own word, do not cloud this one. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2015
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#69 SB "Wrong means objectively wrong for everyone." In the end I guess you are just going to keep on asserting this - period. So it is a waste of time for me to give reasons to doubt it - well I suppose someone else might read them.Mark Frank
January 22, 2015
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Mark Frank
You may well disgree – but it is worth more intelligent debate than dismissing me as making words mean what I want them to mean.
I apologize for framing the issue in exactly that way. However, nothing of substance has changed: Wrong means objectively wrong for everyone. Malodorous does not mean objectively bad for everyone, as I already explained.StephenB
January 22, 2015
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Learned Hand
We can just as easily say that the point of a constitution is steeped in subjective principles; it acknowledges by its very existence that people will disagree about fundamental moral questions, and sets forth both a set of consensus rules and a framework for disagreeing about them.
Any speculation about what a hypothetical constitution may or may not do has nothing to do with the historical facts. We are discussing the Constitution of the United States, which is grounded in the Natural Moral Law. Under its framework, we are, as articulated in its founding documents, “endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights." Because God grants these “natural rights,” they may not be taken away by the government. Whatever the government gives, the government can take away. Now it is true that in 1947, the Supreme Court finally abandoned the natural moral law in favor of judicial whim and consensus, but that dreary episode is another story. I am discussing the original purpose and intent behind the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, which can easily be found in all the founding documents.
If it assumed that everyone shared access to an objective moral universe, presumably it would operationalize it in some way.
What everyone shared were the objective principles inherent in the natural moral law. (It was expressed as The “Laws of Nature” and “nature’s God.”) The idea was that virtuous people, committed to the natural moral law, were capable of governing themselves and didn’t need a king to do it for them. It was understood that it the people were not capable of self-control, they would not be capable of governing themselves. The Declaration of Independence (why are we doing this) was “operationalized” through the Constitution, (how do we do this).
Rather, it used a political process to see what points people could agree to, and presumes they will continue disagreeing in perpetuity. We live in a world in which everyone behaves as if they are a subjectivist, and expects their neighbors to be as well.
This is pure wishful thinking on your part and has no basis in reality. We always have disagreements about the application of principles, but historically, there was no disagreement about the principles themselves. The natural law principle and its corollary of natural rights inform all of the processes that you hold so dear. In each case, the process finds its origin in a principle: “Due process,” for example derives from the Biblical teaching of the inherent dignity of the human person. “Consent of the governed” derives from the Book of Judges, which reports that God ruled through the judges by the consent of the governed. The notion of “natural rights” comes from the natural law principle of an ordered universe. And so it goes. In each case, Christian principles and the Natural Moral Law inform the rules and guides the processes. We can legitimately amend the Constitution, but we cannot legitimately amend natural rights. Of course, the subjectivist can and will deny that they exist, leaving the door open to tyranny. Men have always wanted to be free, usually to no avail. The founding documents explain why they deserve to be free.
How should the Court decide whether infrared scans are unreasonable? What’s the objective moral answer?
By weighing the objective facts in evidence at any given time, applying the objective laws of reason, and remembering objective principles that govern the process. The Constitutions was designed to protect life and the natural rights of the individual. Natural Law Principles govern the processes by which rights are protected. If the natural law principles that inform the process are abandoned, as they have been, then the process is corrupted. Tyrants don’t worry about what is reasonable or right or lawful Granted, not everyone will agree on the best answer to any given problem, that is where the debate and consensus-decision making process are essential; but everyone should agree on the principles that guide the decision-making process. If they can’t agree on that, all is lost. Yes, there is always a potential for small errors, but the big errors, that is, errors that violate justice, come when the rule of law is abandoned and natural rights are ignored.
A subjectivist can always say, “I don’t know enough about the arguments on both sides of this problem to tell what the right answer should be.” Can an objectivist?
Yes. Of course. The Natural Moral Law can never take the place of researching the facts in evidence or substitute for sound judgment. On the other hand, those who are influenced by an objective moral code are less likely to abuse power or make political decisions based solely on self interest.
I can’t tell whether you’d need to, for example, read the briefs of a case, or if you could just perceive the answer as self-evident.
No apriori principle or self-evident truth can ever take the place of an empirical investigation. Everything has to be worked out. However, one cannot work anything out without building on the foundation or reason’s rules (law of non-contradiction, principle of sufficient reason) and the natural moral law principle) We have to start somewhere, and that’s where we start. Otherwise, we sink in intellectual quicksand.
If you’d need to read the briefs, that implies that there are inputs underlying your conclusions, and therefore that the conclusions are subject to the persuasiveness and substance of the inputs.
Of course. The objectivist is truth and fact oriented. The subjectivist, on the other hand, doesn’t believe in objective truth, so he tends to make up his own truth as he goes along, which is a very dangerous proposition for those in power.StephenB
January 22, 2015
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SB
To say that something “is wrong,” is to make a factual claim or to affirm something about reality; it is in the objective mode.
* Wrong sometimes means something completely factual, and sometimes is does not. It depends on the context. When it is used in a moral context I believe it is not completely factual and that it is the thing we are debating. * Your dictionary definition did nothing to resolve this. When you offered a dictionary definition for wrong in a moral context you came up with: unjust, dishonest, or immoral.“they were wrong to take the law into their own hands”synonyms: illegal, unlawful, illicit, criminal, dishonest, dishonorable, corrupt; Moreunethical, immoral, bad, wicked, sinful, iniquitous, nefarious, blameworthy, reprehensible;informalcrooked“I’ve done nothing wrong” I am not sure how you generated this list ( browsing around some parts seem to crop up in some dictionaries but not all of them).  But anyway the list comprises some words that are reasonable synonyms for ”morally wrong”: unethical, immoral, bad, wicked, sinful, iniquitous, nefarious, blameworthy, reprehensible and others which are not synonyms but examples: illegal, unlawful, illicit, criminal, dishonest, dishonorable, corrupt.  The synonyms are no more obviously factual than morally wrong and I  have exactly the same position on them as I do on “morally wrong”. Examples of things that are morally wrong are not proof that morally wrong is objective. We can come up with a long list of factual things that are malodorous but it doesn’t make malodorous objective. * I believe asserting something is morally wrong is more like (but not exactly like) asserting that “jeans are not acceptable” .  Clearly “acceptable” is not a property of jeans. Is it an objective fact? It depends on the context. If I am reporting that in this restaurant jeans are not acceptable then it is. If I am a co-owner of the restaurant debating our policy with another co-owner then it is an expression (not a description) of my opinion. If it is a sign on the restaurant door it is not a description at all but a prescription. Context is all. But in the end there an element of human opinion is an essential part of the meaning of the word “acceptable”.  Likewise in the phrase “morally wrong”.   You may well disgree - but it is worth more intelligent debate than dismissing me as making words mean what I want them to mean.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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LH @ 65 " I’m on a long plane flight and quite bored" I have found that long boring flights to be the best kind. The ones where the engine bursts into flames, masks drop down, altitude plummets and are not as long as expected are certainly not boring but also not preferred. Perhaps this is something that subjectivists and objectivists can agree on? The view that there is no God to provide an objective law that can and will judge you accordingly is also a "faith" issue for you too. CheersCross
January 21, 2015
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The term “wrong” does preclude subjectivity. A thing either misses the mark or it does not. It is not simply perceived to have missed the mark, it misses the mark, in fact. This is assuming your conclusion; for example, it assumes “the mark” is an objective mark. If someone tells me that the First Amendment is the most important amendment of the Constitution, I might say, “That’s wrong!” The opinions on both sides of that discussion are subjective. Sorry, that doesn’t work. Malodorous does, indeed, lend itself to subjectivity, as is clear from the fact that a bad scent is not bad for someone who cannot smell–someone who can truthfully say, it is not bad “for me.” Well, I’m glad we agree at least that “malodorous” is a subjective concept. My point, though, was that the dictionary does not distinguish between subjective and objective definitions in either its “malodorous” or “wrong” entries. It’s facile, therefore, to try to make hay out of the latter. It’s pettifogging. I do, however, appreciate the fact that you are trying to make substantive comments. The sentiment is mutual. Obviously I find your positions frustrating; you may not appreciate why. Your arguments assume that everyone who is not Stephen B is dishonest, insane, or oppressed to the point of being unable to access their basic human nature. (I’m assuming that basically everyone in the world disagrees with you as to at least one moral principle; I can’t prove that, but I think it’s a relatively safe assumption given my experience with human nature.) Your position essentially dehumanizes everyone who disagrees with you. I think it’s ultimately a form of self-aggrandizing solipsism, and extremely corrosive to the kind of back-and-forth discussion I think is a crucial part of moral and ethical human society. It’s not the end of the world, especially because at the end of the day you seem to behave like a subjectivist—you argue rather than simply telling us to search our feelings for our inner Stephen. But you do fall apart from time to time into convenient “just so” assertions. Having said that, as you said and I echo, I appreciate that you do try to have a substantive conversation. To say that something “is wrong,” is to make a factual claim or to affirm something about reality; it is in the objective mode. To say that something “seems wrong,” or is wrong “to me,” is to state one’s opinion; it is in the subjective mode. This is imposing an unnecessary framework. To say that something “is wrong” is always saying that it is wrong according to some standard. Whether the standard is objective or subjective is not necessarily relevant. The work you’re doing to carve out different kinds of “wrong” is only necessary if we assume the truth of your position, which we don’t. If a teacher says that a student’s test answer is “wrong,” she is making a statement about an incontestable fact. She is saying that the student’s answer is inconsistent with the facts. That is what wrong means. It is logically impossible to get a wrong answer unless there is an objectively right answer that makes it wrong. See? This is assuming that “wrong” is amenable to an objective standard. Your comparison is meaningless if we assume, arguendo, that “wrong” is always assessed according to a personal standard that can vary from actor to actor. Thus, when Mark says that rape “is wrong,” he is making a factual claim about objective morality. Except that you know that’s not what he means. If your interpretation of his words is inconsistent with what he means, that doesn’t mean that he’s wrong. Your interpretation of his words is flawed. It’s not supported by the dictionary (because like “malodorous,” it doesn’t functionally distinguish between an objective and subjective definition of “wrong”) or by logic (because you’re assuming your conclusion). Knowledge is related to facts. Perception is related to opinion. You can only gain facts by perception, other than (perhaps) “I exist” or intrinsic feelings. I understand your position to be that morals fall into that category, but that’s the core of our disagreement. Again, you’re assuming your facts. We may have cleaved the disagreement to the bone; your assertions as to the nature of “wrong” seem to me to be professions of faith. Is that not right? Sorry for the multiple responses; I'm on a long plane flight and quite bored. Thanks for the conversation.Learned Hand
January 21, 2015
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That is the whole point of having a constitution steeped in objective principles: to pass just laws that hold everyone accountable, even the government. Alas, that same government can grow corrupt and ignore its own principles and pass unjust laws. However, without the standard, there is no way to know it if has become corrupt. That’s nice rhetoric, but nothing else. We can just as easily say that the point of a constitution is steeped in subjective principles; it acknowledges by its very existence that people will disagree about fundamental moral questions, and sets forth both a set of consensus rules and a framework for disagreeing about them. If it assumed that everyone shared access to an objective moral universe, presumably it would operationalize it in some way. “Congress shall pass no law that is immoral.” Rather, it used a political process to see what points people could agree to, and presumes they will continue disagreeing in perpetuity. We live in a world in which everyone behaves as if they are a subjectivist, and expects their neighbors to be as well. With respect to the Fourth Amendment, you answered your own question. Warrantless and unreasonable mean warrantless and unreasonable. A thing can only be unreasonable according to reason’s objective standards, which are expressed in the natural moral law. This is a good example of how subjectivist frameworks are more effective than objectivist ones. Your answer is baffling; “Warrantless and unreasonable mean warrantless and unreasonable” is literally a tautology, not a particularly helpful legal principle. How should the Court decide whether infrared scans are unreasonable? What’s the objective moral answer? I'm actually curious how you'd determine that answer. I think the balance between police functions and privacy is a very significant moral question. A subjectivist can always say, "I don't know enough about the arguments on both sides of this problem to tell what the right answer should be." Can an objectivist? I can't tell whether you'd need to, for example, read the briefs of a case, or if you could just perceive the answer as self-evident. If you'd need to read the briefs, that implies that there are inputs underlying your conclusions, and therefore that the conclusions are subject to the persuasiveness and substance of the inputs. If not, then I'm at a loss as to how an objectivist legal system would actually function in practice. Modern jurisprudence, which is corrupt and perverse, defines unreasonable as anything that displeases the tyrannical government or the tyrannical majority, who always impose their own subjective morality on those who are powerless to resist. This is empirically untrue. “Modern jurisprudence” has a long list of rules for determining what’s unreasonable; which rules depend on the context. The results are often inconvenient to the government, the majority, or both. Constitutional rights exist largely to protect minorities. Consider the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. They’re loathed by everyone but themselves, but retain the right to demonstrate under the Constitution.Learned Hand
January 21, 2015
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Learned Hand
First, you’re reading absurdly too much into the dictionary definition. It doesn’t preclude the subjectivity of the term.
The term "wrong" does preclude subjectivity. A thing either misses the mark or it does not. It is not simply perceived to have missed the mark, it misses the mark, in fact.
The definition of “malodorous,” for example, doesn’t cop to subjectivity either—it’s just a bad smell.
Sorry, that doesn't work. Malodorous does, indeed, lend itself to subjectivity, as is clear from the fact that a bad scent is not bad for someone who cannot smell--someone who can truthfully say, it is not bad "for me."
I assume that you understand that when MF says something is “wrong,” he can believe (disregarding arguendo your claims that only the mislead or insane believe something other than what you believe) that an action is wrong for anyone to commit, ever, everywhere.
To say that something is wrong means that it applies to "everyone," not just "anyone." It is the *everyone* that takes it out of the subjective realm. Objective morality applies to everyone, not just anyone. I do, however, appreciate the fact that you are trying to make substantive comments. Let's try to think this thing through: If a statement is expressed in the language of facts, then it is objective; if it is expressed in the language of opinion or perception, then it is subjective. To say that something “is wrong,” is to make a factual claim or to affirm something about reality; it is in the objective mode. To say that something “seems wrong,” or is wrong “to me,” is to state one’s opinion; it is in the subjective mode. If a teacher says that a student’s test answer is “wrong,” she is making a statement about an incontestable fact. She is saying that the student’s answer is inconsistent with the facts. That is what wrong means. It is logically impossible to get a wrong answer unless there is an objectively right answer that makes it wrong. Thus, when Mark says that rape “is wrong,” he is making a factual claim about objective morality. Yet Mark doesn’t believe in objective morality. To express his true beliefs, he must say that rape “seems wrong” or that it is wrong, “for him.”
Your perceptions, whether sensory or notional, are the only way you can know “the way things are.”
That is incorrect, but it doesn't matter. We are not discussing processes; we are discussing categories. Knowledge is related to facts. Perception is related to opinion. The former is objective, while the latter is subjective.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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Whoops, clarification: I understand your position to be that short of insanity or oppression, people don't actually disagree about morals. When I write merely "disagree," above, please read that as "claim to disagree." Sorry for the confusion.Learned Hand
January 21, 2015
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SB #55
If you don’t understand the difference between an affirmation about the way things are, as opposed to an affirmation about how you perceive things, then that is your loss.
It is a crude and wrong version of subjectivism that says moral statements are statements about my feelings. That is why I wanted to probe deeper into the nature of moral language. But you seem to regard this as an irrational pursuit.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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Stephen, I think we'd agree that people all over the world at least seem to disagree about moral issues. Many, perhaps most, disagree with you on at least one point: whether contraception is moral; whether women must obey their husbands in marriage; whether any sort of discrimination is moral, and if so, what sort; whether speeding is wrong, and if so, at what point; whether it's moral to steal or lie in conditions of dire extremity, and if so, what constitutes such conditions; etc. People not only disagree about the answers to those questions, and many, many more, those who are objectivists claim to disagree in practice as to where to draw the line between "objective moral principle" and "emanation of such a principle, about which people can reasonably disagree." I think those are obvious enough points that we can agree on them, but let me know if not. Assuming they are, given the wide scope of moral questions on which people can and do claim to disagree, doesn't that leave you as potentially the only person on Earth who acknowledges and comprehends the correct, objective moral code? After all, virtually everyone else disagrees with you on one element or another, but you don't misapprehend any part of the objective code (if I understand you correctly). I'm very dubious of a belief system that claims an objective moral standard that only the claimant acknowledges without error. And I doubt you'd agree with that suspicion on my part, but I'm curious where we deviate. Is it that you think you aren't the only person who acknowledges the moral code just as you do, without any claimed disagreement?Learned Hand
January 21, 2015
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Stephen, An exclamation of disapproval does not rise to the level of an argument. Neither does a citation to the dictionary, unless the discussion is about how a word is commonly defined. “Pettifoggery” means that your argument is extremely trivial, not just that I disagree with it. Let me check my assumption—I understand you to have been saying that because the dictionary definition of “wrong” does not acknowledge any subjectivity, MF is misrepresenting his own views when he describes something as “wrong” without appending the qualifier, “for me.” If I’m wrong, then let me know, because then this is a pointless digression. But if that’s what you mean, then you’ve gone wrong in a couple of ways. First, you’re reading absurdly too much into the dictionary definition. It doesn’t preclude the subjectivity of the term. The definition of “malodorous,” for example, doesn’t cop to subjectivity either—it’s just a bad smell. And yet an aesthetic subjectivist needn’t say “bad for me” to be understood or subjectively correct. Second, the “for you/me” formula you and MWJ like to append is sloppy and potentially misleading. Remember that “wrong” here is usually going to be used to describe actions, so you’re leaving an unclear antecedent. I assume that you understand that when MF says something is “wrong,” he can believe (disregarding arguendo your claims that only the mislead or insane believe something other than what you believe) that an action is wrong for anyone to commit, ever, everywhere. Being a subjectivist only means that he acknowledges that someone else may disagree with him, honestly and sincerely. So when MF says something is “wrong,” he’s not misrepresenting his views; he truly believes that it’s wrong. He needn’t go on to say, “but only for me,” because (a) he may believe that it’s a wrong for anyone, anywhere to commit, in his opinion, even if they honestly disagree with him, and (b) there’s simply no need to append, “for me,” after every subjective adjective. If you don’t understand the difference between an affirmation about the way things are, as opposed to an affirmation about how you perceive things, then that is your loss. Your perceptions, whether sensory or notional, are the only way you can know “the way things are.” At least, for those of us who don’t believe in a divine spark that empowers certain of our notions, particularly those that happen to coincide largely with our cultural and personal backgrounds. Insofar as you claim that we all have a direct, spiritual connection to an objective standard, I see no evidence of it; it seems to be merely a matter of faith on your part. As you said above, such an assertion “does not rise to the level of an argument.” But it seems to underlie most of your points. Perhaps you should start appending after every statement, “for everyone”? While you are at it, please provide me with your definition of the word “wrong.” Once you go through the intellectual exercise with me, I am sure that your mind will be illuminated. I think I’d call something morally wrong if it transgresses a value I hold. There are other kinds of “wrong,” but I think that’s the one that we’re talking about. Let me know if you meant something else.Learned Hand
January 21, 2015
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It is clear that those who support abortion don't really know what's its like... It is murder, it is torture, limbs and parts are torn off.... Here an ode to those that support genocide.... enjoy what you support http://liveactionnews.org/you-cant-say-you-didnt-know-what-a-real-abortion-video-looks-like/Andre
January 21, 2015
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LH @ 54:
It continues to surprise me that you cannot come to grips with the opinions of people who are not Stephen.
You say something like this in every other comment. It appears to be your favorite rejoinder. Sadly, it really is second grade level “you poopyhead” sort of stuff. You probably don’t know this, but you are embarrassing yourself. Kindly desist. SB understands your arguments such as they are (i.e., when you occasionally stir yourself to rise above the level of huffs of personal indignation) far better than you, apparently, understand his.Barry Arrington
January 21, 2015
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LH
Pettifoggery.
An exclamation of disapproval does not rise to the level of an argument.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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Learned Hand
It continues to surprise me that you cannot come to grips with the opinions of people who are not Stephen. He clearly does believe that things are morally wrong; contorting a dictionary entry to redefine the words he uses in a way that suits you does not change what he is saying.
I am not surprised that you have such difficulty following a rational argument. He clearly does not believe things are morally wrong. He believes that things are morally wrong, "for him," which is not the same thing. If you don't understand the difference between an affirmation about the way things are, as opposed to an affirmation about how you perceive things, then that is your loss. While you are at it, please provide me with your definition of the word "wrong." Once you go through the intellectual exercise with me, I am sure that your mind will be illuminated.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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The point was that the word “wrong,” as defined, means objectively wrong or wrong according to an objective standard. That was the point of citing the dictionary definition, to show that this is what everyone means when they use that word. Pettifoggery. Thus, when you said that rape “is morally wrong,” you were, perhaps unknowingly, misrepresenting your views, because you do not believe that there is any such thing as a morally wrong act. Your position is that rape is “wrong for you,” which is subjective, not “wrong,” which is objective. It continues to surprise me that you cannot come to grips with the opinions of people who are not Stephen. He clearly does believe that things are morally wrong; contorting a dictionary entry to redefine the words he uses in a way that suits you does not change what he is saying. The man's opinions are a living testament that your beliefs are factually inaccurate: people who are not Stephen, and do not think like Stephen, live and breathe. I can almost see the mindset that compels you to tie words in knots to deny the reality of humans outside your own skin, but it's difficult to respect it. There is a wide world out there, Stephen. You are just one part of it.Learned Hand
January 21, 2015
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Mark Frank
I certainly did not intend to redefine “morally wrong” the way I meant it.
The point was that the word "wrong," as defined, means objectively wrong or wrong according to an objective standard. That was the point of citing the dictionary definition, to show that this is what everyone means when they use that word. Thus, when you said that rape "is morally wrong," you were, perhaps unknowingly, misrepresenting your views, because you do not believe that there is any such thing as a morally wrong act. Your position is that rape is "wrong for you," which is subjective, not "wrong," which is objective. The difference is important because you would have the rapist punished for doing something that you don't approve of, not for doing something "wrong." Yet what you said is that the rapist should be punished for doing something wrong.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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SB #47 I have some time now.
What good would that do? The last time I provided a reference for the commonly accepted definition of a term, a dictionary no less, you rejected it and claimed that such references cannot settle disputes over meaning. You have always made it clear that words mean whatever you want them to mean whenever you want them to mean it. That is why I will dialogue with you only on matters of fact. Anytime the subject matter turns to a rational interpretation of facts, I will bow out.
That means I failed to make myself clear for which I apologise.  As I recall we were discussing the nature of moral language and you used the example of “morally wrong”. I did not mean to imply that your dictionary definition was wrong – only that it was not useful if you wanted to understand the nature of moral language. To use an analogy – suppose you wanted to understand the nature of mathematical language – does it refer to transcendental entities or is it simply the application of rules to symbols or whatever – it would not be very useful to supply a dictionary definition of an ellipse. It would be true. But that definition would only be from one set of mathematical expressions to another and throw no light on the nature of mathematical language in general. I certainly did not intend to redefine “morally wrong” the way I meant it. I was only offering my description of moral language, as used by all of us. You might well disagree with that description and that is an interesting debate – but I don’t think it merits the description “have always made it clear that words mean whatever you want them to mean”.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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SB, If you placed every person on the planet in the state of Texas, you would have a population density equal to Chicago, Illinois. So, there is no problem at all with over-population, nor is there any danger that it will ever be a problem. Learned Hand
And then Texas would become a graveyard of billions. The perceived “danger of over-population” is not that the people won’t physically fit, but the availability of resources commensurate with the population. I don’t know how serious a danger it is, but your example doesn’t make a cogent counter-argument.
If the population density is the same as Chicago, Illinois, which allows plenty of room to live, then the distribution of goods will be no less problematic with that same density in Texas. With respect to the resources themselves, they, too, are plentiful. As a general rule, destitution is a function of ignorance, persecution, and perverse leadership, not scarce resources or overcrowded space.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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I also think moral viewpoints matter. In the other thread, I make the case that most everyone, even those that describe themselves as moral relativists or subjectivists, live their daily lives as if morality refers to an objective (universal) commodity. One might ask, what does it matter, then, if one believes in moral subjectivism/relativism as long as they act like moral objectivists and obey what their conscience tells them? The problem is that over time conscience and logic can degrade, especially in a society that increasingly embraces anti-realism and post-modernism, allowing for an increasing corruption of one's moral capacity. Thus, the way one views morality - subjectivism or objectivism - matters, at least, over time, and certainly over the course of generations, not because it will change the fact that people act as if morality is objective, but rather because it will increasingly damage their capacity to act in a way that is actually moral.William J Murray
January 21, 2015
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