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Moral Viewpoints Matter

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Those of us who argue that morality is grounded in a transcendent, objective standard often use extreme cases to demonstrate our point. We argue, for example, that in no conceivable universe would torturing an infant for personal pleasure be considered anything other than an unmitigated evil. Since there is at least one self-evidently moral truth that transcends all places, times, circumstances and contexts, the objectivity of morality is demonstrated.

The other day frequent commenter Learned Hand stated that “[Subjectiviests are] very much like [objectivists], in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.”

The objectivist response to LH is two-fold. On the one hand, we say that it is entirely obvious and unsurprising that subjectivists feel powerfully about their moral beliefs. After all, subjectivists’ moral beliefs are grounded in the objective reality of a transcendent moral standard just like everyone else’s (even though subjectivists deny that this is so). Far from asserting that subjectivists are amoral monsters, objectivists absolutely insist that any given subjectivist can be as sensitive (or even perhaps in some instances more sensitive) to the demands of the objective moral law as an objectivists. Subjectivists, like everyone else, know that (and always behave as if) torturing an infant for personal pleasure is objectively wrong. Which, of course, is why the rest of LH’s rant in the linked comment is not only mean spirited, it is also blithering nonsense.

On the other hand, objectivists also argue that the subjectivist argument that they feel their morality just as powerfully as objectivists is patently false given their own premises. One group of people believe that morals are based on an objective, transcendent moral standard binding on all people at all times; another group of people take Will Provine seriously when he says no ultimate foundation for ethics exists. Certainly the responses of individuals within the group will vary. But can there be any doubt that people who believe morality is based on something real will, at the margin, feel more strongly about their moral commitments than people who believe their moral commitments are, ultimately, based on nothing at all? Can you imagine a moral objectivist insisting that we should not “judge” Aztec human sacrifice by our current cultural standards, as I once saw a curator of a museum here in Denver do?

Of course, the key to this analysis is the phrase “at the margin.” All decisions are made at the margin, and that is why when it comes down to the actual practical differences in the behavior of subjectivists and objectivists, examples from the poles are unhelpful, because the behavior of both groups will be practically identical.  But is there really a difference in behavior at the margin? As I argued above, simple logic dictates that we should expect a difference in behavior at the margin. But do we have any concrete examples? I believe we do. It is called American jurisprudence.

As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of law began with the publication in 1897 of The Path of the Law by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this groundbreaking article Holmes almost singlehandedly founded the school of “legal realism,” which gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal nihilism,” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judge’s rulings. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? Because, as Phillip Johnson has explained, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism,” and Holmes’ great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of naturalism. Truly Holmes’ ideas could be called “jurisprudential naturalism.” Thus began the modern era of what has come to be known as “judicial activism.”

What does all of this have to do with “morality at the margin”? The answer lies in the structure and history of the American Constitution. In the Federalist 79 Hamilton argued that judges would be restrained from judicial activism by their fear of impeachment:

The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They [federal judges] are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other.

For structural reasons (impeach requires a supermajority in the Senate), political reasons (super majorities necessary for impeachment are impossible if even a significant minority of the Senate agrees with the results of the judicial activism), and historical reasons (Jefferson’s failed use of the impeachment process to check the judiciary weighed very heavily against subsequent attempts), Hamilton turned out to be wrong.

If judges cannot be checked effectively by fear of impeachment when they abuse their office, what does check their power? Just this: Judges take an oath of office to uphold the constitution, and the only practical check on their power is individual judge’s moral commitment to that oath. And it is here that the difference between subjectivist and objectivist commitments to morality have plain effects at the margin.

Every time a judge makes a ruling (especially in the area of constitutional law), there is a temptation. Suppose a judge has a powerfully felt commitment to a particular policy (it does not matter what the policy preference is). Suppose further that the text, structure and history of the constitution provides no warrant for elevating that policy preference to the status of constitutional imperative. If there is no effective political check on his power, what is to stop the judge from nevertheless falsely ruling that the constitution does indeed elevate his policy preference to constitutional imperative? Again, nothing but his moral commitment to his oath. This is especially true for Supreme Court judges whose rulings are not subject to further review.

Which group of judges has the stronger moral commitment?  Based on a host of data, it is certainly the case that political liberals are far more likely to be areligious. Further, areligious people are far more likely than religious people to be moral subjectivists. Therefore, we can conclude that liberal judges are more likely to be moral subjectivists. Is it any wonder then that the vast majority of cases of judicial activism come down on the side most amenable to political liberals? Indeed, while I will be the first to admit that there have been a few rare cases of conservative activism, judicial activism is overwhelming seen as a phenomenon of the left. Conservative judges view their project as essentially a moral project. Liberal judges see their project as, in Justice White’s famous phrase, the raw exercise of power. It cannot be reasonably disputed that liberal judges (whom we can conclude have a largely subjectivist moral viewpoint) do not have as strong a moral commitment to their oath. And that, Learned Hand, is why it matters.

Comments
Hi mrchristo,
Your post is long winded and goes off on a tangent
That is merely your subjective opinion, and yet you state it as objective fact :-) I sense you may have trouble reading longer arguments, so let me start by giving you the bottom line first, since you missed it last time: Your morality is not objective, you just think it is.
If morality is subjective then you are not being consistent when you tell what moral precepts to adopt, either people decide for themselves or they don’t
You haven't understood my post: Moral sentiments are not voluntary for either subjectivists or objectivists. Nobody decides to be appalled at the thought of torturing puppies, just like nobody decides to feel pain when they suffer from gout. Subjectivists do not "decide for themselves" what moral sentiments to hold, and neither do objectivists. What is different is this: Moral subjectivists acknowledge that there is no epistemological foundation for declaring their own moral sentiments to be objectively true statements about the world independent of human perceptions, while objectivists do not acknowledge this.
I can understand why you could see even people who call themselves moral subjectivists as unable to do it as you yourself recognize it as objectively wrong, Not just a matter of personal preference.
The statement "torturing puppies is morally reprehensible" is neither a personal preference nor an objective fact. Again: It is neither one.
But if right and wrong is subjective and somebody did what you and I see as wrong then they justify to themselves that what they were doing was not wrong and you as a moral subjectivist would have no grounds to say they are wrong.
I would have the exact same grounds as you would, because neither of our moral arguments are objective. All you do is just say that your morals are objective, but that doesn't make any difference, because nobody has any reason to believe you. Just try to answer the question: What is it that you believe makes your moral beliefs objectively true?
RDF: “Barry and WJM and StephenB and others here argue that moral propositions have objective truth values, while other folks disagree. It would seem that in order to resolve the matter, we would need to establish how it is we actually determine whether or not some proposition is objectively true or false, or whether it is merely subjectively so.” MC: What they do is point out that you and others do not live consistently...
What they do is exactly what I said they do: They argue that morality is objective. I have argued that morality is not objective. You haven't addressed any of the points I made. Instead, you have focussed on claiming that it is inconsistent for a subjectivist to tell other people they are morally wrong. Your confusion there is merely a semantic one: You interpret "wrong" to mean "objectively wrong", then complain that the subjectivist are inconsistent if they tell people that their morals are objectively wrong. Since the subjectivist denies that moral facts are objective, that obviously isn't what the subjectivist means. What the subjectivist means when they say "Puppy torturing is wrong" is analogous to what we mean when we say "Gout is painful". Both of these statements are inherently subjective, but there is no inconsistency in making these statements without qualification. There are people (thankfully very few) who do not see puppy-torturing as being wrong, and there are people (also very few) who do not feel pain although they suffer from gout, but this doesn't make these statements inconsistent or meaningless. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
January 25, 2015
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Your post is long winded and goes off on a tangent so am just dealing with the relevant points. "No, that is not what subjective morality means." Yes it does. "It means that morality is not objective" Well if it were subjective then of course it would not be objective "but not that people choose what moral precepts to adopt" If morality is subjective then you are not being consistent when you tell what moral precepts to adopt, either people decide for themselves or they don't If I was a moral subjectivist then I would be inconsistent telling others that their behaviour is wrong, However you are the inconsistent subjectivist so that is a problem for you. "Could you decide that torturing babies for enjoyment is moral? Of course you couldn’t, and neither can moral subjectivists of course." I can understand why you could see even people who call themselves moral subjectivists as unable to do it as you yourself recognize it as objectively wrong, Not just a matter of personal preference. But if right and wrong is subjective and somebody did what you and I see as wrong then they justify to themselves that what they were doing was not wrong and you as a moral subjectivist would have no grounds to say they are wrong. "Subjectivists do not hold their position because they desire to set their own moral standards" The reasons why people may hold their position is not the point, the point is that you are not being consistent when you tell others that their behaviour is morally wrong when you as a subjectivist say that morality is subjective, if it is subjective and the person decides for themselves what is right or wrong then you are not being consistent in telling them that they are wrong. "Barry and WJM and StephenB and others here argue that moral propositions have objective truth values, while other folks disagree. It would seem that in order to resolve the matter, we would need to establish how it is we actually determine whether or not some proposition is objectively true or false, or whether it is merely subjectively so." What they do is point out that you and others do not live consistently with your position of morality being something the individual chooses for themselves, when you tell others they are wrong then you are accepting that there is a correct standard of how things should be and that they do not decide for themself what is right or wrong. "In summary, there is no firm epistemological ground upon which moral objectivism can stand." You don't live consistently with that position. "One cannot establish the existence of objective morality simply by definition, or by act of will." Yet you do not live consistently with that statement. "We all have the same response to almost all moral questions; on some questions there are disagreements – even among objectivists!. None of us merely decide what we find morally acceptable;" It makes no sense for you to say what is morally acceptable or unacceptable about others behaviours because to do so is to pressupose that there is an objective standard of how one should act. "we perceive it – and a moment’s reflection should make that clear to even the most committed objectivist" What is clear is that you cannot live consistently with the idea that moral right and wrong is subjective.mrchristo
January 25, 2015
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mrchristo @104
Subjective morality means you decide on whether your own behaviour is moral or immoral.
As Learned Hand would no doubt argue, if he were here, subjective morality means that each individual works out his or her moral beliefs and compares both their own behavior and that of others to those principles. There is nothing to prevent me judging your behavior by my moral principles and nothing to prevent you judging my behavior by your moral principles. What neither of us can do is demonstrate some absolute authority for those beliefs. None of the above prevents us from forming a consensus view of morality, however. If the overwhelming majority in a society agrees that killing other people without good cause is wrong then that is the view that will prevail. It may be "wrong" only in the sense that most people would prefer not to be killed without good cause but what other foundation can there be? Why shouldn't our preferences be the deciding factor?
Telling other people that their behaviour is morally wrong not only pressuposes that there is an objective standard of how one should behave but it contradicts the position of people deciding for themselves whether their own behaviour is moral or immoral.
There is no contradiction if we all agree on a particular principle. Even if there were a contradiction, as between the psychopath who believes he is morally entitled to rape and murder and all the rest of us who reject that view, in practice it will be resolved in favor of the majority, which is, for the most part, how it should be in my view. Telling other people that their behavior is morally wrong does not require an objective morality, only a subjective view. If I were to describe a painting like Turner's The Fighting Temeraire as being beautiful I would not be claiming that beauty is an objective property of the canvas like width or weight. I would actually be saying that in my view it is a beautiful work of art. By the same token, if I were to tell others that rape is morally wrong what I would actually be saying is that in my view rape is wrong. The rapist might disagree but if his victims, their families, friends and the rest of society all agree that it is wrong then, by any reasonable standard, it is wrong. I ask again, if not us, who else should decide? Note that I'm not asking who might have the power to impose their morality on the rest of us but who has the right to decide for us and on what grounds.Seversky
January 25, 2015
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Subjective morality means you decide on whether your own behaviour is moral or immoral.
No, that is not what subjective morality means. It means that morality is not objective, but not that people choose what moral precepts to adopt. Could you decide that torturing babies for enjoyment is moral? Of course you couldn't, and neither can moral subjectivists of course. Could you decide to enjoy wallowing in a rotting animal carcass? Could you decide to despise the feeling of sexual intercourse? These are not voluntary decisions - they are innate in us. Subjectivists do not decide to find that some action is immoral any more than you decide to find that some image is disgusting or that some injury is painful. Subjectivists do not hold their position because they desire to set their own moral standards. Rather, subjectivists believe that (1) There is no objective way to tell if objective moral standards exists; and/or (2) Even if there were objective moral standards, we have no way of objectively determining what those standards those might be. Barry and WJM and StephenB and others here argue that moral propositions have objective truth values, while other folks disagree. It would seem that in order to resolve the matter, we would need to establish how it is we actually determine whether or not some proposition is objectively true or false, or whether it is merely subjectively so. Empirical science (a project often maligned on these pages) endeavors to catalogue a set of objectively true propositions about the observable world. It does so by considering only those propositions that refer soley to things that are well-defined in terms of our universal experience (that is, observations that can be reliably replicated by independent researchers). Intersubjective agreement is then taken to indicate that the results are objectively true. Empirical methods are phenomenally successful, but when it comes to morality, they are limited to descriptive rather than normative facts. So we can't use science to ascertain what - if any - moral imperatives exist objectively (that is, independently of human beliefs, perceptions, or reasoning). Now, while intersubjective agreement is taken as an indicator that some belief is objective, the converse does not hold: Intersubjective disagreement does not necessarily indicate that there is no objective truth of the matter. So the fact that different people find conflicting moral precepts to be objectively true does not necessarily indicate that there are no objective moral truths; it just shows that if there are such things, we can't objectively determine what they might be. It does, however, as Faded Glory pointed out above, suggest a lower a priori probability that any one candidate moral code is objectively true, just as religious plurality reduces the likelihood that any one particular religious dogma is true. While objectivism cannot be supported empirically, some argue that at least some moral propositions may be held to be objectively self-evident. Thomas Jefferson held, for example, that "All men are created equal" is a proposition that is self-evidently true. But while he wrote that he and the other founders held this belief, he was well aware that this proposition was held to be false by various other people, religions, and governments at the time. I believe in the truth of this proposition axiomatically, and at least as strongly as Jefferson did, there is no way to demonstrate that it is self-evidently true. Rather, it can only be accepted as such subjectively, while others reject its truth altogether. So, the subjective claim that some moral precept is "self-evidently" true does not help to establish that precept as being objectively true. Moral objectivists may also appeal to a transcendent (divine) source of morality, but there are a number of problems with this approach, including that there is no objective method enabling us to discover which, if any, of the different moral codes revealed by different purported gods might be objectively true, and that we have no objective reason for thinking that some god's idea of morality is objectively true in the first place. In summary, there is no firm epistemological ground upon which moral objectivism can stand. One cannot establish the existence of objective morality simply by definition, or by act of will. There must be some compelling reason to believe that moral facts exist outside of our own minds. We all have the same response to almost all moral questions; on some questions there are disagreements - even among objectivists!. None of us merely decide what we find morally acceptable; we perceive it - and a moment's reflection should make that clear to even the most committed objectivist.RDFish
January 25, 2015
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#104, mrchristo Alas, this thread is no longer fun in the absence of the most articulate proponent of the subjectivist position. He won't answer your objections for reasons beyond his control. Perhaps you should ask Barry Arrington what has happened to Learned Hand. Is banning the adversary the ultimate argument of the invincible objectivist?Piotr
January 25, 2015
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Subjective morality means you decide on whether your own behaviour is moral or immoral. As soon as the subjective moralist tells others that their behaviour is wrong then they are contradicting their position that people decide for themselves what is right or wrong. Telling other people that their behaviour is morally wrong not only pressuposes that there is an objective standard of how one should behave but it contradicts the position of people deciding for themselves whether their own behaviour is moral or immoral. For all their bleating, The subjectivist cannot and does not live as if morality is subjective.mrchristo
January 25, 2015
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@hrun0815 “So objective morality or subjective morality, the end effect is all the same: Both our heads roll unless we find that board with a nail in time. Of course, unless, you morality says that killing is morally wrong even if you are defending your life or the life of others. Then even the board with a nail will not help, I guess.” The end effect may be the same, but the fact remains the same, objective morality would still exist, regardless of whether or not our heads roll. Objective morality isn’t dependent on the actions of a human being, but rather on the character and nature of a transcendent being. I’ve already mentioned that a “moral dilemma,” such as defending myself with lead pipe, would not negate an objective moral system. “Aeh, forgot this. I thought I had stressed this: You and I both agree that he would have done something wrong. For you because you believe that ‘human beings have intrinsic worth’. For me because I have empathy which means that I do not think anybody should cause other humans needless suffering." I realize you may think he’ll have done something wrong, but outside of your own personal preferences, (your private morality) he won’t have done anything wrong, objectively that is. But I think you already agree with this. I would suspect you would have to agree with this if you’re holding to the notion that our morals are subjective. Well, I see the difference being that in my case, its objectively wrong always, where in your case, its just your opinion, which really isn’t grounded in anything buy your own personal preferences. It’s a game of he said, she said. Outside of our civil laws, morality is a train wreck, a dog eat dog. I’m curious, removing all our civil laws, are you going to hold to your empathy, or are your morals going to adapt and change? “Now, you can say that you have an objective standard. I have no idea if I have an objective standard and I can think of no authority that would clarify the matter. So, to me it is just a subjective standard.” Well, for me, its much more plausible to conclude that we have an objective moral law/standard that transcends humanity, then to conclude that we each have our own personal moral standard where no good, no evil, no right, and no wrong exist outside of our own minds. Its pointless to condemn or judge, pointless to call anything evil, thus, pointless to consider doing something good when I stand to gain more from doing something wrong. Survival of the fittest, I guess. Yikes, lol… “Do you really think it matters? What if I just told you ‘my morality dictates that human suffering should be minimized’ without mentioning anything about objectivity or subjectivity? Would that change anything? And if it does matter, why? We already established that it wont matter when trying to convince the ISIS fighter. We might be able to agree that we both personally feel equally strongly about this? So again, where is the difference? Do you think that because I do not believe in an authority that declares this morality to be objective that I am more able than you are to go against my moral belief?” No, not at all, I just don’t know why you wouldn’t consider it if it gains you more in life, that’s all. You know, “why should I ought to do something good, when doing something bad stands to gain me more.” I guess I see subjective morality for what it is, a “what ever works best for me,” regardless of the outcome for anyone else involved. Well, you’d have no real reason not to go against your own morality, where as with an objective moral standard, you do. A subjective morality is one that should be free to adapt to whatever situation may arise, at any time… one free from any personal guilt, and certainly one free of any condemnation.KRock
January 24, 2015
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Either way, it’ll be; “off with your head,” and the ISIS fighter will have done nothing wrong.
Aeh, forgot this. I thought I had stressed this: You and I both agree that he would have done something wrong. For you because you believe that 'human beings have intrinsic worth'. For me because I have empathy which means that I do not think anybody should cause other humans needless suffering. Now, you can say that you have an objective standard. I have no idea if I have an objective standard and I can think of no authority that would clarify the matter. So, to me it is just a subjective standard. Do you really think it matters? What if I just told you 'my morality dictates that human suffering should be minimized' without mentioning anything about objectivity or subjectivity? Would that change anything? And if it does matter, why? We already established that it wont matter when trying to convince the ISIS fighter. We might be able to agree that we both personally feel equally strongly about this? So again, where is the difference? Do you think that because I do not believe in an authority that declares this morality to be objective that I am more able than you are to go against my moral belief?hrun0815
January 23, 2015
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I do truely love the topic of morality, although I’m no expert by any means, its still utterly fascinating… Thank you for your perspective hrun0815, even if we don’t agree, or see eye to eye.
Good. We can agree to that. Just real quick about this:
The problem with your example is that you’re assuming his actions aren’t still somehow “objectively wrong,” even if he doesn’t agree me, or us, and chooses to behead me (which he likely will) because I belong to a different religion. You say; “I say so.” And on the grounds that no objective morality exists (in your case), who cares what you think, morality is a power grab for those who want it more, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc… Either way, it’ll be; “off with your head,” and the ISIS fighter will have done nothing wrong. Another sobering thought. I think this private language analogy has a little more thrust in the direction it was intended, then you’re giving it credit for.
So objective morality or subjective morality, the end effect is all the same: Both our heads roll unless we find that board with a nail in time. Of course, unless, you morality says that killing is morally wrong even if you are defending your life or the life of others. Then even the board with a nail will not help, I guess.hrun0815
January 23, 2015
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@hrun0815 “Hey, it is your analogy, not mine. And if you are surprised that I picked up your analogy to see where it leads you probably have not read my posts in the ‘morality threads’ of the last week.” It is my analogy but it doesn’t mean I subscribe to it. I guess it’s refreshing to see someone actually subscribe to a subjective view of morality instead of trying to prop up the illusion of an objective moral framework when there’s no such thing. “You mean like checking out countless other civilizations that functioned and thrived, yet had a morality different than yours or mine?” So you agree, morality is subjective than? “You, and I, and every single person I know agree that they are doing something wrong. This does not mean that they aren’t acting according to their own system of morality, right? Or do you think they ISIS fighters would agree with you that they are morally wrong? For all I know they believe in an objective morality where their god told them to kill infidels and enslave their women.” Something wrong? On what grounds is it wrong? I’m okay with you saying you that don’t like what they’re doing, but please, don’t suggest its wrong; it’ll just fall on deaf ears. It doesn't matter if he agrees with me or not, his actions can still be objectively wrong whether he believe them to be or not. “Again, to stress this, I think they are morally wrong to do so. You believe they are morally wrong to do so. We can both justify why we believe their actions to be morally wrong.” Please, do justify why their actions are wrong. I’ll justify their actions to be wrong on the basis that human beings have intrinsic worth. “I do not believe there is a ‘correct system of morality’. So I guess the answer is nobody.” Then why in God’s name would any of the ISIS fighters actions be wrong? If there's no correct system, there's certainly no one wrong over another, heck, there's no such thing. "Yup. You got it." Right! Subjective… Got it… Listen, I’m glad you’re freely admitting morality to be subjective, but lets do away with the notion of wrong, right, evil, good, etc, they’re illusions. Of course, I don’t buy, or better yet, can’t buy into subjective morality, as I view human beings as having a real value of intrinsic worth. “Even though I can’t ‘objectively’ condemn any action, I can still condemn it. And I can condemn it equally as much and as forceful as you can.” On what grounds are you condemning these actions to be wrong? No, no I don’t think you can equally be as forceful in condemning them as wrong, for your worldview, assuming its naturalism, doesn’t offer human beings any intrinsic worth… we’d merely be the product of time + matter, + chance… A sobering thought. “Let’s take your previous example of an ISIS fighter. Let’s suppose we happen to run into one. You and I will tell him: “Hey, what you are doing is morally wrong. You should not kill innocent people and cause needless suffering.”?He answers: “Yeah, says who?”?You say: “Objective morality says so. [Feel free to call on a deity or natural law or something else.]?I say: “I say so.” The problem with your example is that you’re assuming his actions aren’t still somehow “objectively wrong,” even if he doesn’t agree me, or us, and chooses to behead me (which he likely will) because I belong to a different religion. You say; “I say so.” And on the grounds that no objective morality exists (in your case), who cares what you think, morality is a power grab for those who want it more, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc… Either way, it’ll be; “off with your head,” and the ISIS fighter will have done nothing wrong. Another sobering thought. I think this private language analogy has a little more thrust in the direction it was intended, then you're giving it credit for. "And at this stage we both find ourselves in the same boat, objectivist or subjectivist. We can continue talking, but at this stage that probably seems pretty pointless. Or we can decide that we know better what is morally correct. And, in fact, it might be that our morality demands from us that we now commit some acts that we’d find morally reprehensible in other situations. So maybe we would both quietly crane our necks to see if we can’t find a lead pipe or a board with a nail in it." Lol.... I know I'd be looking for something if I could get my hands untied. lol... Listen, the fact we might find ourselves in a sort of, "moral dilemma," says nothing as to whether there's objective morals. And, If by me, or you, finding a lead pipe, or a board with a nail in it, could result in saving countless more lives, then that option should remain on the table. Dietrich Bonhoeffer has come to mind.... :-) I do truely love the topic of morality, although I'm no expert by any means, its still utterly fascinating... Thank you for your perspective hrun0815, even if we don't agree, or see eye to eye.KRock
January 23, 2015
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This reeks of subjective morality, not objective morality.
Hey, it is your analogy, not mine. :) And if you are surprised that I picked up your analogy to see where it leads you probably have not read my posts in the 'morality threads' of the last week.
You’re basically admitting that if everyone subscribes to their own personal language, even if it appears to overlap others within their society or culture, morals are still the subjective product of the individual. Sure, we can communicate morality, but If my morality is unique to me, who cares? Remove our Western civil laws and lets see how this system of morality works than.
You mean like checking out countless other civilizations that functioned and thrived, yet had a morality different than yours or mine?
But lets, for argument sake, say that this is the case, that morality is simply the product of our surroundings, yet still unique to the individual, but with the ability to overlap with others. We would have to conclude that the members of ISIS are simply acting on this system of morality you speak of, and are thus, not doing anything objectively wrong, even though thousands of innocent people are dying at their hands.
You, and I, and every single person I know agree that they are doing something wrong. This does not mean that they aren't acting according to their own system of morality, right? Or do you think they ISIS fighters would agree with you that they are morally wrong? For all I know they believe in an objective morality where their god told them to kill infidels and enslave their women. Again, to stress this, I think they are morally wrong to do so. You believe they are morally wrong to do so. We can both justify why we believe their actions to be morally wrong.
Which group has the correct system of morality? Us? Them? Nobody?
I do not believe there is a 'correct system of morality'. So I guess the answer is nobody.
If you answer nobody, then you’re forced back into the notion that morality is a private individual system, thus, ultimately subjective.
Yup. You got it.
I disagree. Butchering an innocent baby for sheer fun is still objectively wrong regardless of where one finds them self living on this earth.
You write 'you disagree', yet you don't actually write something that disagrees with my post. I wrote that "torture is immoral for countless moralities (but not for all, of course)". If you have been following the debate in the US you will find that more than 50% of the people in this country believe that torture is not morally wrong. They feel that torture is actually morally justified. I can certainly not agree with this, and maybe you can't either, but that certainly does not mean that everybody agrees with us.
Just like Hitler’s actions of slaughtering millions of Jews would still be wrong whether he won the war or not.
Certainly. That's why I never suggested that Hitler's actions would have become right had he won the war.
Which leads me to my point on having your own personal and private system of morality; you’re left without the ability to objectively condemn any action as wrong, outside of yourself that is.
Even though I can't 'objectively' condemn any action, I can still condemn it. And I can condemn it equally as much and as forceful as you can. Let's take your previous example of an ISIS fighter. Let's suppose we happen to run into one. You and I will tell him: "Hey, what you are doing is morally wrong. You should not kill innocent people and cause needless suffering." He answers: "Yeah, says who?" You say: "Objective morality says so. [Feel free to call on a deity or natural law or something else.] I say: "I say so." He answers: "Oh no, guys. You got it all wrong. You see, it is objectively morally correct to slaughter infidels. Allah commanded all of us to do so. In fact, why are you not killing infidels? Are you possibly infidels yourself?" You and I say: ... And at this stage we both find ourselves in the same boat, objectivist or subjectivist. We can continue talking, but at this stage that probably seems pretty pointless. Or we can decide that we know better what is morally correct. And, in fact, it might be that our morality demands from us that we now commit some acts that we'd find morally reprehensible in other situations. So maybe we would both quietly crane our necks to see if we can't find a lead pipe or a board with a nail in it.
You’d be better off holding to a view of subjective morality… but who in their right mind would ever want to admit to that?
Hah. No idea who'd ever admit to that. :)hrun0815
January 23, 2015
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@hrun0815 #92 “The groups of people that surround you, of course. Your family, friends, co workers, and fellow citizens of your surrounding. Just like everyone has their own unique language everyone also has their own unique morality. But just because either is unique to you and only you doesn’t not mean there isn’t a huge overlap that makes communication possible even without an objective language.” This reeks of subjective morality, not objective morality. You’re basically admitting that if everyone subscribes to their own personal language, even if it appears to overlap others within their society or culture, morals are still the subjective product of the individual. Sure, we can communicate morality, but If my morality is unique to me, who cares? Remove our Western civil laws and lets see how this system of morality works than. But lets, for argument sake, say that this is the case, that morality is simply the product of our surroundings, yet still unique to the individual, but with the ability to overlap with others. We would have to conclude that the members of ISIS are simply acting on this system of morality you speak of, and are thus, not doing anything objectively wrong, even though thousands of innocent people are dying at their hands. Which group has the correct system of morality? Us? Them? Nobody? If you answer nobody, then you're forced back into the notion that morality is a private individual system, thus, ultimately subjective. If you answer group, you’re saying that might makes right, but I’m pretty sure that won’t hold up. “In analogy, your morality is generally similar to your parents, your friends, and to the folks living around you. And if you translate yourself to a completely different part of the earth you will find that both language and morality will be different from what you are used to. But again, this does not mean that everything has to be different: the ‘ma’ sound refers to your mother in countless languages, just like torture is immoral for countless moralities (but not for all, of course).” I disagree. Butchering an innocent baby for sheer fun is still objectively wrong regardless of where one finds them self living on this earth. Just like Hitler’s actions of slaughtering millions of Jews would still be wrong whether he won the war or not. Which leads me to my point on having your own personal and private system of morality; you’re left without the ability to objectively condemn any action as wrong, outside of yourself that is. It’s ultimately a private and individual system of morality you'd be subscribing too. You’d be better off holding to a view of subjective morality... but who in their right mind would ever want to admit to that?KRock
January 23, 2015
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faded_Glory @ 89 Thanks for your reply, my comments were a generalization, you seem to be another case. If I read right, you are agnostic, believe in chemical evolution for creating life, there is an underlying moral objective reality, this evolved, we can perceive it subjectively. I have difficulty believing that evolution via Rv + NS has the power to evolve moral truth, things like "love" for instance have a large metaphysical or spiritual dimension, I see no sensible way this can evolve. Explanations like "kin selection" seem to me to really stretch as an explanation. One thing I do agree is that most will not change their view, as I said, it is steeped in their "faith" issues. CheersCross
January 23, 2015
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So we have agreed that attributes can be a mixture of objective and subjective. I also like the way you point out that context is part of determining the meaning. So the next step is to establish whether judging something morally right or wrong or good or evil or whatever is one or the other or a mixture. Now I am going to suggest that actually there is at least on other category here. We can ask if the attribute depends only on characteristics of the object or we need to know something about its relationship to (a ) the speaker (b ) other people in order to assign it in the given context. For example, if you use "funny" totally subjectively that is true in virtue of the speaker's reaction (laughing) to the object. On the other hand the comedian is funny because of his propensity to make people laugh. If no one ever laughed at a comedian even though they got to see and hear what he did - then you could not truthfully say he was funny. So I will divide attributes into three classes: Totally subjective - true in virtue of the speaker's reaction Cultural - true in virtue of human reaction in general Totally objective - always true independent of any human reaction Now suppose we used the word "xevil" to describe a range of phenomena that had the same attributes as things we find evil (e.g. causes suffering, contravenes the NML or whatever) but no one thought that at all important or any kind of reason for action or interest - it was just a passing mention of no more cultural significance than being red or heavy. Could you honestly say that we were using the word "xevil" with the same meaning as evil? Surely evil includes the idea that this is something to be avoided or limited?Mark Frank
January 23, 2015
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Mark Frank
are references to objective states of affairs unless Y is a “definitively subjective adjective”. I think that is wrong – but of course it depends what falls into the category “definitely subjective”. Are these definitely subjective:
Attractive Funny Awesome Promising Unreasonable Unacceptable Reprehensible A tough list to analyze. I think that every adjective gets to speak for itself whenever a clear reference to the objective mode is absent. I will give you my take on each one of your examples: (The assumption is that the each word is preceded by the word "is." 1 Attractive (I am assuming that you mean physically attractive) --mostly objective; somewhat subjective. It's like beauty. There is a strong objective component (physical proportions) and a mild subjective component (small variations in perception) 2 Funny--objective and subjective (I think a professional comedian's capacity to make people laugh is objective, but subjectively, there are significant variations in individual perceptions about who is the funniest, or, in some rare cases, who is funny at all. 3 Awesome--mostly subjective (tied to a subject's feelings of inspiration etc.) 4 Promising--not enough information, needs more clarification 5 Unreasonable--totally objective (Reason's rules are objective) 6 Unacceptable--objective and subjective (could represent a violation of an objective contractual agreement or it could be a subjective feeling based on one's reaction to a prospect, event, or proposition. 6 Reprehensible--mostly objective (If something deserves to be condemned, that implies more than just a negative feeling or opinion)StephenB
January 23, 2015
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SB Well that moves it on. As I understand it you are claiming that all statements of the form X is Y are references to objective states of affairs unless Y is a "definitively subjective adjective". I think that is wrong - but of course it depends what falls into the category "definitely subjective". Are these definitely subjective: Attractive Funny Awesome Promising Unreasonable Unacceptable Reprehensible I think language is a whole lot more complicated and subtle than you give it credit for. We get obsessed with the reference model of meaning so we think each word is a label for something in the external world - "red" is a label for a certain colour - but what is "funny" a label for? If followed to an extreme we end up pondering what "it" refers to in "it is raining". (This is relevant to this debate because I think the key to understanding subjectivism is understanding the acts we typically perform when using moral language.)Mark Frank
January 23, 2015
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Mark Frank
But as I say – that particular sterile debate can be avoided by choosing a synonym for “morally wrong”
immoral, bad, wicked, sinful, iniquitous, nefarious, blameworthy, reprehensible;
I don't know how that will help. If you say, for example, that rape "is" [insert your synonym], I will have to assume that you mean for everyone, at all times, and under all circumstances. If you say that rape "seems" [insert your synonym] or that it is the case "for you," then I will know that you mean just that and nothing more. What it all boils down to is that the word "is" really rises to the level of a metaphysical claim about objective reality (what is as opposed to what is not). It is another way of saying, "this is the case without exception." It is in the objective mode. If I say, for example, "Jupiter is a planet," I don't mean Jupiter seems to be a planet or that, for me, Jupiter is a planet. I mean that Jupiter really is a planet---for everyone--regardless of their opinions or perceptions. On the the other hand, the word "seems" or the phrase "is to me" refers to one's opinion or perception about what "is," meaning that it may well not be the case, or may not be the case for everyone. It is in the subjective mode. If I say Jupiter seems to be a planet, or, "to me, Jupiter is a planet, I am allowing for the possibility that it may be a star, a moon, or something else--maybe even a illusion. So it doesn't matter which synonym you use. The problem will persist. If you don't acknowledge that "is" means objective and "seems" or "is to me" means subjective, there is no possibility of having a rational discussion. Now there is one exception to the above rule. If you use the word "is" with a definitively subjective adjective, then the statement becomes subjective. If, for example, I say "this is tasty," or "this smells bad," or "this is soothing," then I am in the subjective mode because I refer specifically to the subject's sense of taste, smell or touch. So it is if I say, "this is depressing" or "this is demoralizing" since I am alluding to the subject's emotional or psychological sensibilities. In the above examples, I am saying, "this is the way it is 'for the subject'" I don't say "it seems depressing" or it "seems soothing" because it is already clear that I am talking about the subject, as opposed to metaphysical reality. Otherwise, I am making a metaphysical statement when I use the word is. Thus, if something "is" morally wrong, sinful, wicked, iniquitous, or blameworthy, it is that way for everyone; it is an expression about about objective reality--unless further qualifiers are added, such as "seems" or "for me." So, when you say "rape is wrong," as it clearly is, then you are saying that rape violates an objective standard of morality, which it clearly does. In making that statement, though, you are contradicting and misrepresenting your true beliefs, which are subjective. Rape is wrong, for you. That is your true philosophy as a subjectivist. You should own up to it by using the right words.StephenB
January 23, 2015
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Group(s)? What group(s)? Your moral standard is based on your own personal preferences. Its like having your own private language that NO one else can understand but yourself. That was the point… Your moral standard is private, not public, thus, NO objectively correct language could ever exist.
The groups of people that surround you, of course. Your family, friends, co workers, and fellow citizens of your surrounding. Just like everyone has their own unique language everyone also has their own unique morality. But just because either is unique to you and only you doesn not mean there isn't a huge overlap that makes communication possible even without an objective language. In analogy, your morality is generally similar to your parents, your friends, and to the folks living around you. And if you translate yourself to a completely different part of the earth you will find that both language and morality will be different from what you are used to. But again, this does not mean that everything has to be different: the 'ma' sound refers to your mother in countless languages, just like torture is immoral for countless moralities (but not for all, of course). So neither a subjective language not a subjective morality make it impossible to live together. In fact they represent what we are confronted with daily.hrun0815
January 23, 2015
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SB
When the word “wrong” is injected into any sentence like that, it means that there is an objective standard to be met. It is saying that there is a correct way to interpret Stravinsky and an incorrect way to interpret Stravinsky. If that is not what is meant, then that is not the word that should be used. ….. Again, using the word wrong in that context means that it was a mistake to give up the course and would not have been a mistake to continue. If you don’t want to give a cut and dry impression, don’t use the word wrong, which is a cut and dry word. Find another one.
Now I feel it is you who are using the word to mean what you want it to mean. To me it seems clear that if I say that’s the wrong way to play a tune or approach a part I am making a subjective judgement. There is no proof or observation that shows that it is the wrong way. It may be that in doing that I am comparing it to a “right” way I have in mind – but that choice of the right way is subjective. But it is silly to spend time arguing about the meaning of a single word. An easy way round it is to substitute another phrase instead of the word that we can agree on and then look at the implications of that phrase. So how about one of the synonyms you offered for morally wrong? immoral, bad, wicked, sinful, iniquitous, nefarious, blameworthy, reprehensible; I am happy to work with any of those except “bad” which is, like “wrong”, too broad in application. The point being to determine whether in normal use these words refer to some objective fact or express an opinion (or both). Which would you like to choose? 
Reluctant??? I have been saying for days that morally wrong means objectively wrong.
Yes. But you haven’t responded to any attempt to analyse the specific context of morally wrong. You have only argued for it by producing instances of “wrong” in other contexts. But as I say – that particular sterile debate can be avoided by choosing a synonym for “morally wrong”Mark Frank
January 23, 2015
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Mark Frank
Aesthetics: That’s the wrong way to interpret Stravinsky
When the word "wrong" is injected into any sentence like that, it means that there is an objective standard to be met. It is saying that there is a correct way to interpret Stravinsky and an incorrect way to interpret Stravinsky. If that is not what is meant, then that is not the word that should be used.
Satisfaction: I was wrong to give up the course.
Again, using the word wrong in that context means that it was a mistake to give up the course and would not have been a mistake to continue. If you don't want to give a cut and dry impression, don't use the word wrong, which is a cut and dry word. Find another one.
Why are you so reluctant to talk about morally wrong? Or even better, as I proposed, take a word that is pretty much confined to moral statements: evil.
Reluctant??? I have been saying for days that morally wrong means objectively wrong. The other examples were attempts to show you that the word wrong is universally associated with being off the mark or not right. It is always in the objective mode unless attached to a qualifier, as in, wrong for me, or seems wrong, or wrong to me. So to say, for example, that murder "is" morally wrong, is to say that it is objectively wrong--for everyone, at all times.StephenB
January 23, 2015
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Cross @86: I lack a belief in the Gods of the world's religions. I don't know if there is anything out there that would qualify as a God. There may be, there may be not. From what I know and what I have seen I find it utterly impossible to arrive at a coherent story about such an entity, if it exists. I can't therefore assign it much of a role in my beliefs about reality. The fundamental belief I have is that there is an objective reality, and we can learn about it through our senses and our reasoning. Why that is so, I don't know. I am a subjectivist not because I say 'there is no God' (which I don't), but simply because that position seems much more consistent with what we observe in the world regarding people's behaviours and how they justify them. The fact that there are so many objectivists who differ deeply on what their professed objective morality tells them to do is easily explained in the subjectivist's framework but undermines the objectist's position. This is akin to the many-faiths problem when it comes to the truth of religion. I believe that the road to understanding the natural world is through empirical science and not through extrapolating from religious beliefs or texts. Evolution is a theory about the natural world, not about metaphysics or religion, and it needs to be developed using the tools of empirical science. ID as currently discussed on this board is a metaphysical belief, not a scientific theory. The claimed scientific elements of ID have not stood up to scrutiny by the academic world, have not gained traction, and appear to be a scientific dead-end. The rest of ID leads to never ending metaphysical discussions no different than what people have been debating for millenia without ever reaching firm conclusions. Discussions about morality can certainly have a place in discussions about evolution - like when we are trying to understand scientifically if there is an evolutionary basis for morality. Linking the two subjects because of personal beliefs or religious tenets won't lead to anywhere, witness these never ending debates here and elsewhere. We all know that there will never be a consensus. It is all just for fun. fGfaded_Glory
January 23, 2015
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@hrun0815 #82 I'm not sure you really answered my questions though. Group(s)? What group(s)? Your moral standard is based on your own personal preferences. Its like having your own private language that NO one else can understand but yourself. That was the point... Your moral standard is private, not public, thus, NO objectively correct language could ever exist.KRock
January 22, 2015
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faded_Glory @ 86 "Try to understand this, StephenB: from the Subjectivist’s point of view, you are making up the the bulk of your argument from your personal beliefs…" and so are you, lets see why There is no God --> Chemical Evolution created life --> there is no built in moral truth --> I am a subjectivist because I am my own God, I get to decide what is right and wrong for me, objectivism is wrong. There is a God --> I am created in His image --> There is a built in moral truth --> I am an objectivist and I am subject to and answerable to this God and His built in truth, subjectivism is wrong. You see, your "faith" that there is no God naturally leads to your subjective view of life. My "faith" that there is one good God leads me to my objective view. This is why discussions like this come up on a blog about ID or Evolution, what you first believe or have faith in leads to much of your view about origins. CheersCross
January 22, 2015
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StephenB: Anyone who thinks that I argue like a subjectivist has not been paying attention. I don’t ever recall depending on a “just so” story. I am amazed how often my critics make wild generalized statements about me without providing a shred of evidence or even a hint about what they mean. I don’t usually discuss me; I discuss ideas, facts, and truths. This may appear to be the case from the point of view that you are arguing from - Objectivism. If you would try for a moment to think like a Subjectivist, you might suddenly understand that from our point of view, just about everything you have asserted about Natural Law, Ten Commandments and Sermon of the Mount etc. is all one massive big just-so story with virtually zero empirical evidence, nor a lot of reasoning, to back it up. Try to understand this, StephenB: from the Subjectivist's point of view, you are making up the the bulk of your argument from your personal beliefs... ...which is, of course, what everybody does, in the Subjectivist's view. Perhaps that is some consolation. This is truly the chasm between Objectivists and Subjectivists: only when you think as the one can you understand that the other has got it so fundamentally wrong. fGfaded_Glory
January 22, 2015
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Stephen B The point of the exercise is to show that when the word “wrong” is used, it always means with respect to an objective standard and never means anything else Sorry to intrude but for instance " it is wrong to drink coke and eat chocolate cake" , seems like a subjective standard.velikovskys
January 22, 2015
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KF
MF, is or is it not morally wrong or just plain wrong to kidnap, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child? KF
As LH says - I don't see the point of this. Of course we both agree it is wrong. That doesn't make it objective. I think maybe you are trying to set a sort of trap. By choosing something which we all find utterly abhorrent, if I deny it is objectively wrong I give the impression I disapprove of it slightly less than you. That just doesn't follow. We are talking about the logic and meaning of moral statements - not the intensity of feeling.Mark Frank
January 22, 2015
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SB #78  
The point of the exercise is to show that when the word “wrong” is used, it always means with respect to an objective standard and never means anything else. Thus, the wrong place, wrong time, wrong size, wrong act, wrong answer, or wrong anything always means not right and objectively wrong. If we reverse the order of the words, nothing changes, as in morally wrong, mathematically wrong, strategically wrong etc. It should give you pause that I can present one example after another to support my point and no one can present an appropriate counter example.
The word “wrong” is used very broadly in lots of contexts so it is not all surprising that you can produce lots of examples (none in a moral context) where it means with respect to an objective standard. There are plenty where it doesn’t: Aesthetics: That’s the wrong way to interpret Stravinsky Satisfaction: I was wrong to give up the course. Why are you so reluctant to talk about morally wrong? Or even better, as I proposed, take a word that is pretty much confined to moral statements: evil.Mark Frank
January 22, 2015
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Is the subjectivist moral standard, even if they claim to know objective right and wrong, still not the same as having one’s own personal language? And if the language (or moral standard for this matter) is personal, then who, outside the individual in question, could possibly claim its validity? I would be inclined to deduce that any subjectivist moral standard would become a game of, “he said she said.”
I love the comparison to language, actually. It really makes clear what is going on. There is no objectively correct language. Everybody speaks their own language. And if that language works out for the individual and the group that the individual is part of, it then gets perpetuated. This means that even with a dictionary that truly defines what is the objectively correct language people happily live together as groups and function without much of a problem. And even if there is such a thing as an objective dictionary it just changes over time anyway-- and is completely different for people from different cultures. Anyway, great analogy, KRock. (Even though it might not have the intended thrust.)hrun0815
January 22, 2015
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kairosfocus
MF, is or is it not morally wrong or just plain wrong to kidnap, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child?
Learned Hand
Good god KF, you know he’s going to say it is, and you know such things are as noxious to him as they are to you. What’s the point of wallowing in slime like that?
I don't think that's fair. When kairosfocus asks if something is "just plain wrong," he is making a clear reference to the objective mode. He is not asking if it is noxious "to MF," which is an evasive subjective formulation. To agree that it is just plain wrong is to also agree about the objective nature of the moral question. That is why KF asked the question--to awaken in the subjectivst an intellectual and moral instinct that has been buried underneath a smothering ideological framework.StephenB
January 22, 2015
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I'm a bit late to this party, but I think we have governments and laws because morality does not clearly address complex cases of right and wrong. I can remember when businessmen took pride in handshake deals, and ordinary people spoke of honor and plain speaking. But this only seems to work in small communities where everyone knows everyone else. When transportation allowed people to travel far and wide, community standards failed to restrain people. If there were some widely agreed upon absolute morality, it would be rather simple to write laws. The fact that laws are complex and convoluted, and that they are frequently controversial, indicates to me that standards are subjective.Petrushka
January 22, 2015
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